The neighborhood watch captain was left “bloody and battered,” according to the version Zimmerman told investigators. Witnesses have corroborated his version, authorities told The Orlando Sentinel. And ABC News reports that Zimmerman told police that Martin knocked him down and attempted to take his gun.
There are no witnesses to the original assault Zimmerman claims happened, only the aftermath. No one saw the shooting happen or what led up to it, they only heard screams and the shot. They saw Zimmerman over the dead body.
Originally posted by Doug85GT: You do realize that Martin didn't just punch him. He broke Zimmerman's nose, knocked him to the ground, bashed his head against the ground, pinned him and continued beating him as Zimmerman yelled for help.
If Martin had stopped at just punching, shoving and knocking Zimmerman down, then I would agree with you. Martin crossed the line when he pinned Zimmerman down and was beating him.
I didn't realize he had a broken nose and his head was "bashed". Those injuries sound nasty and I would assume it appeared in the police report? Hospital photos? Anything?
I didn't realize he had a broken nose and his head was "bashed". Those injuries sound nasty and I would assume it appeared in the police report? Hospital photos? Anything?
There are no witnesses to the original assault Zimmerman claims happened, only the aftermath. No one saw the shooting happen or what led up to it, they only heard screams and the shot. They saw Zimmerman over the dead body.
The police report I read shows 5 witnesses, not people that happened upon the scene after the fact, those are not witnesses.
There is a 911 call from a neighbor in which you can hear gunshots meaning that unless they used some futuristic phoning device that they knew something was happening before Martin was shot.
There is a report from a witness that another witness said he was calling 911 on Martin before Zimmerman shot him.
I would not want to be witness in this case for fear of backlash from the black community. I feel this whole situation is going to get VERY inflamatory in the coming days. If word gets out who the witness was that saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman, he is as good as dead. The Black Panthers and other activists will ensure that.
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-26-2012).]
I would not want to be witness in this case for fear of backlash from the black community. I feel this whole situation is going to get VERY inflamatory in the coming days. If word gets out who the witness was that saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman, he is as good as dead. The Black Panthers and other activists will ensure that.
Yep, one of the reasons that there are no names next to "Witness" on the Police reports. Now it very well could be that the truth on this is not able to come out because the Black Panthers put hits I mean "bounty" on the heads of anyone that speaks out against Martin.
I support FULL DEATH PENALTY against any vigalante caught that kills any of the witnesses, or Zimmerman.
And for the record, I have been completely against the death penalty...
Flip... Flop... make up your mind Todd. You would not be a good politician. How do you feel about vigilantism as it applies outside of this case? Do you support the death penalty for anyone who takes the law into their own hands, for whatever reason?
Flip... Flop... make up your mind Todd. You would not be a good politician. How do you feel about vigilantism as it applies outside of this case? Do you support the death penalty for anyone who takes the law into their own hands, for whatever reason?
No... and after thinking about it. I take it back, I really do not support the death penalty. I was just getting pissed, and wrote that. I would NOT support what I just said.
But I do want to know one thing...
Why is it that whenever something like this comes up, Democrats automatically want this to turn out to be an example of racism, but when someone of middle eastern descent blows up a building and / or shoots people while screaming "Allah is Great" that they immediately come to his defense (of sorts) and say that it wasn't Islamic fundamentalism... but then in yet another breath, say how bad religion (Christianity) is?
THAT to me is confusing.
I think more realistically, we're all pawns of the media, and people immediately take the sides of whatever little concept or box we believe we're supposed to fit into, and the media portrays all of it's stories to help further that agenda.
If anything positive comes out of all of this... I really hope that EVERYONE realizes that ... YET AGAIN ... we were all played by the main stream media and the political machine.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: If anything positive comes out of all of this... I really hope that EVERYONE realizes that ... YET AGAIN ... we were all played by the main stream media and the political machine.
Bias? maybe, I still think Zimmerman was wrong for following the kid when advised not to and we have NO idea what transpired in their initial contact. Fact remains a kid is dead and the "man" is responsible.
Bias? maybe, I still think Zimmerman was wrong for following the kid when advised not to and we have NO idea what transpired in their initial contact. Fact remains a kid is dead and the "man" is responsible.
Would you be happier if the man was dead because of the kid bashing his head against the ground?
Because that from the witnesses is what was happening when the shot was fired. The kid was smashing the man’s head against the ground.
Would you be happier if the man was dead because of the kid bashing his head against the ground?
Because that from the witnesses is what was happening when the shot was fired. The kid was smashing the man’s head against the ground.
Steve
You seem to know more than the rest of us and have made up your mind that if it was you you would have killed the kid and not had second thoughts. Good for you, way to make a stand.
Personally I would like to know more about how this all inititally occured but we will only get one side of the story from the living party and his lawyers unfortunately.
Originally posted by newf: You seem to know more than the rest of us and have made up your mind that if it was you you would have killed the kid and not had second thoughts. Good for you, way to make a stand.
Personally I would like to know more about how this all inititally occured but we will only get one side of the story from the living party and his lawyers unfortunately.
No more than anyone else who actually reads what is in the news. I will admit at first I thought it was just racially motivated, but now after learning more it is getting to look like the kid attacked him and the adult was on the ground after being knocked down by kid. Who then by witness accounts is bashing the man’s head against the ground? If the kid was just trying to get away from someone who was stalking him after he knocked him down he would have run away and got help.
No more than anyone else who actually reads what is in the news. I will admit at first I thought it was just racially motivated, but now after learning more it is getting to look like the kid attacked him and the adult was on the ground after being knocked down by kid. Who then by witness accounts is bashing the man’s head against the ground? If the kid was just trying to get away from someone who was stalking him after he knocked him down he would have run away and got help.
He didn’t.
Steve
There are some huge 'If"s in this situation thus far. We will hopefully see if the truth ever comes out.
Some of you think that it wasn't OK for Zimmerman to follow the kid. By the 911 tapes, he was attempting to keep the kid in sight until the police got there, which, given his responsibility as a neighborhood watch person, is a REASONABLE thing to do.
The 911 operator said 'you don't have to follow him'. This is NOT an order to NOT follow the kid, not to mention that 911 operators CAN NOT ISSUE LAWFUL ORDERS.
Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood watch, which if I'm not mistaken, exists because there were burglaries in the area.
The tapes DON'T reveal that Zimmerman even confronted the kid, and in fact DO reveal that he was going back to his vehicle AFTER Martin went out of sight, and then Martin came back and attacked Zimmerman.
I will say this: Even _IF_ Zimmerman was keeping an eye on the kid, does that justify Martins attack? Is it OK to ask some kid wandering around YOUR neighborhood (suspiciously) 'Hey, what are you doing here?'
Would you expect to get pounced on and beaten?
Would it be OK to break someones nose if they asked what you are doing?
The media made this sound like Zimmerman ran up to the kid and shot him in the back, while screaming racist epithets. COMPLETE FAIL. And many MANY people are buying into that lie. Including President Obama (hey, what is he now, 0 for 2 on commenting on local matters? Must be time for another 'beer summit' - but at least this time he only needs to spring for one beer....)
Bias? maybe, I still think Zimmerman was wrong for following the kid when advised not to and we have NO idea what transpired in their initial contact. Fact remains a kid is dead and the "man" is responsible.
It may have been wrong for Zimmerman to follow Martin, but it's not illegal. (as far as I know) Zimmerman's report to police said he was following Martin and lost sight of him. Martin then rushed up and punched Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground, then proceeded to get on top of him and banged his head into the sidewalk while Zimmerman screamed for help. It was at that point Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Martin.
That's Zimmerman's side of the story as I understand it. 911 recordings captured the screams and gunshots and at least 1 witness reported seeing Martin beating Zimmerman on the ground. The officer who responded noted Zimmerman had wounds to his face and back of his head and his back was wet, as if he'd been on the ground on his back. Now, if I were a responding officer and got that story from Zimmerman and it was corroborated by at least 1 witness, I doubt I'd arrest him at the time either. Should evidence come up showing he was at fault, he would be indicted and arrested.
And none of that information has anything to do with race, Skittles or iced tea.
Acording to this mornings updates, Zimmerman was on his back on the ground and the 'kid' was on top of him knocking his head agains the pavement when he pulled out his gun and shot him. Sounds like self defense to me. And I do love it how all the news shows show the 'kid' as this little sweet 13 year old. He was a 6'2 football player. Ya he was sweet and innocent even though his school kicked him out for having pot. Be strange now if the neighborhood break ins stop....
Ill agree Zimmerman should NOT have followed him after he was told not to. According to reports now by witnesses who saw him, Zimmerman had lost sight of the kid and was walking back to his car when he was jumped from behind and beaten.
Now all the race killer people are just trying to twist it around anyway that it was a straight up murder. They dont care what facts come out. The Black Panther leader has said they are sick of black kids being killed and no white. Its time for some white kids to die. This guy should be arrested for making death threats...why are none of these justice people calling for that...I think Sharpton should be shot myself. He always sticks his nose into business he dont belong to stir up any kind of trouble to make himself feel important. Sharpton and the Black Panthers are the real racists here.
The are NO witnesses that can testify what exactly happened when these two people first came face to face, how they came face to face, or what exactly they said to each other. All that is know is that Zimmerman was pursuing Martin through the neighborhood in his SUV and that he continued his pursuit on foot, once Martin took to the sidewalk behind the houses. You can even hear Zimmerman running on the 911 recording, as he tries to catch up with Martin, after being told not to do so by the 911 operator. Zimmerman is 5' 9" and over 200 pounds. Martin is 6' 3" and 140 pounds soaken wet. The confrontation happened on the sidewalk behind the neighborhood houses. Zimmerman wasn't near his car when it happened and there are no witnesses that can say he was heading back to his SUV. It is one thing to pursue someone in a neighborhood, it's another to try and confront them when you are armed and have been told not to do so. That is escalation. For all we know Martin could have been fighting for his life, because Zimmerman threatened him. Martin was killed a few doors away from his father's house. One witness claims he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him while he screamed for help. Martin's father says he recognized his son's cries for help from the 911 recordings. The facts are: 1-Zimmerman was following Martin in his SUV through the neighborhood. He made a 911 call to make them aware of what he was doing. 2-Zimmerman was armed with a 9mm hand gun. 3-Zimmerman left his SUV to continue his pursuit of Martin on foot. He was told to not follow Martin by the 911 operator when he admitted doing so. He can be heard running after being told not to pursue. 4-Martin was aware that he was being followed and told his girlfriend about it. He had been on his cellphone with her the whole time this was happening. He was using an ear bud device to talk on his cellphone. It somehow became disconnected just before the confrontation and their communication is cut off. 5-911 calls started pouring in about someone crying and screaming for help until a shot is heard. 6-Martin is dead from gun shot to his chest. He has no identification on him.(It took police 24 hours to report his death to his father because of that) 7-Zimmerman is seen with his hands on the back of the body. He then stood up and seemed to be grabbing his head in disbelief and shock. He did not respond when asked several times what he was doing there. Finally he tells the witnesses to call 911.
What is not known is where exactly did this confrontation start, who initiated it, what was said, who threw the first punch, when did Zimmerman pull out his gun, was it's safety on, where on his body was he wearing it, was it visible before the confrontation or concealed, or did he already have it out? We know where this ended and the result. We also know that it would not have happened if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, kept his distance, and wasn't armed. The way he was talking to the 911 operator made it seem like he was setting up a defense for what he ultimately did.
The bottom line is that no one should get a free pass for killing another. Zimmerman should be tried for what he did. Maybe then all the facts will come out and justice can be served.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-27-2012).]
Looks like the Daily Caller has got their hands on Trayvon Martin twitter account. What was this precious snowflakes twitter name? NO LIMIT NIGGA. And by reading through his tweets, he certainly seemed to live up his name. Every girl mentioned in his tweets is a ***** , he openly brags about how is late everyday, gets stoned, and is a REAL NIGGA! I'm sure his mom is now scrambling to patent his Twitter name to try and cash in on other black youths who want to be as "Nigga" as her son.
Read these before the Black Panthers and other activists order them removed from web.
I just have to warn you that the above is not safe for work, and your IQ is likely to be cut in half reading through this kids ramblings. If anything, you would think the black community would try and distance them from one who embraces thug culture, and the "Nigga" life style, not martyr them.
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-27-2012).]
The facts are: 1-Zimmerman was following Martin in his SUV through the neighborhood. He made a 911 call to make them aware of what he was doing. 2-Zimmerman was armed with a 9mm hand gun. 3-Zimmerman left his SUV to continue his pursuit of Martin on foot. He was told to not follow Martin by the 911 operator when he admitted doing so. He can be heard running after being told not to pursue. 4-Martin was aware that he was being followed and told his girlfriend about it. He had been on his cellphone with her the whole time this was happening. He was using an ear bud device to talk on his cellphone. It somehow became disconnected just before the confrontation and their communication is cut off. 5-911 calls started pouring in about someone crying and screaming for help until a shot is heard. 6-Martin is dead from gun shot to his chest. He has no identification on him.(It took police 24 hours to report his death to his father because of that) 7-Zimmerman is seen with his hands on the back of the body. He then stood up and seemed to be grabbing his head in disbelief and shock. He did not respond when asked several times what he was doing there. Finally he tells the witnesses to call 911.
Be careful what you call facts before we know everything that happened. 3. Reports different on whether Zimmerman was told to NOT follow Martin or that he "didn't have to" follow Martin. 5. Reports also differ on wether it was Zimmerman or Martin that can be heard screaming on the 911 tape. 7. Zimmerman may have been grabbing his head in disbelief and shock - or he may have been grabbing it because his head was just pounded into the sidewalk. He was most definitely in shock regardless as he was just attacked (provoked or not) and had just shot someone. Anyone who's not a psychopath is going to be in shock immediately after an event like that.
The key facts that this case will turn on are the manner of their first interaction. That's not changed. I posted Zimmerman's side of the story above and police have so far said they've found no evidence to dispute Zimmerman's story. In the absence of more evidence, there isn't enough to charge Zimmerman with a crime. That's not to say he won't be as more information comes out.
OK, Bear with me (though I suspect it won't matter what I say.)
quote
Originally posted by avengador1:
The are NO witnesses that can testify what exactly happened when these two people first came face to face, how they came face to face, or what exactly they said to each other. All that is know is that Zimmerman was pursuing Martin through the neighborhood in his SUV and that he continued his pursuit on foot, once Martin took to the sidewalk behind the houses. You can even hear Zimmerman running on the 911 recording, as he tries to catch up with Martin, after being told not to do so by the 911 operator. Zimmerman is 5' 9" and over 200 pounds. Martin is 6' 3" and 140 pounds soaken wet. The confrontation happened on the sidewalk behind the neighborhood houses. Zimmerman wasn't near his car when it happened and there are no witnesses that can say he was heading back to his SUV. It is one thing to pursue someone in a neighborhood, it's another to try and confront them when you are armed and have been told not to do so. That is escalation. For all we know Martin could have been fighting for his life, because Zimmerman threatened him. Martin was killed a few doors away from his father's house. One witness claims he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him while he screamed for help. Martin's father says he recognized his son's cries for help from the 911 recordings.
But there were witnesses, 5 of them that were willing to give statements to the Police. You start this paragraph saying there were no witnesses, and finish it saying there was. How do you want to slant it?
quote
The facts are: 1-Zimmerman was following Martin in his SUV through the neighborhood. He made a 911 call to make them aware of what he was doing.
It was said on the news this morning that he called the non-emergency line, not 911. So this is not a "fact."
quote
2-Zimmerman was armed with a 9mm hand gun.
And?
quote
3-Zimmerman left his SUV to continue his pursuit of Martin on foot. He was told to not follow Martin by the 911 operator when he admitted doing so. He can be heard running after being told not to pursue.
It was a suggestion, and not an order, but that aside, according to a witness version Zimmerman was told not to follow a few moments before he was attacked by Martin. He was walking back to his SUV according to what I have read. So once again, it's not proven and not a fact.
quote
4-Martin was aware that he was being followed and told his girlfriend about it. He had been on his cellphone with her the whole time this was happening. He was using an ear bud device to talk on his cellphone. It somehow became disconnected just before the confrontation and their communication is cut off.
This is another story with no proof, even ABC who claims to be the only news source with the tapes from his Girlfriend only has tapes of her talking about what happened. So, no this is not fact either.
quote
5-911 calls started pouring in about someone crying and screaming for help until a shot is heard.
You mean, witnesses? Those people that you said earlier didn't exist?
quote
6-Martin is dead from gun shot to his chest. He has no identification on him.(It took police 24 hours to report his death to his father because of that)
That's expected when a body not from the area has no ID. Did his Dad start calling the Police when he didn't come home that evening?
quote
7-Zimmerman is seen with his hands on the back of the body. He then stood up and seemed to be grabbing his head in disbelief and shock. He did not respond when asked several times what he was doing there. Finally he tells the witnesses to call 911.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Should he have been dancing? He just shot and killed a guy.
quote
What is not known is where exactly did this confrontation start,
My assumption is that it started when he called the police, hence the Police call.
quote
who initiated it,
Seriously? Are you just throwing a bunch of crap against a wall to see what will stick?
quote
what was said,
Once again, there should be tapes since Zimmerman was on the phone with the Police.
quote
who threw the first punch,
I can make an educated guess there, one guy has no marks from being punched, and the other needed stitches, who hit who?
quote
when did Zimmerman pull out his gun,
I'm not sure of that, but according to yet another news story I watched there was a fight for the gun, and Martins hand was around the barrel, we won't know exactly until the full report is released.
quote
was it's safety on,
I'm really not sure why you even want to know that unless you think Martin went for the gun yourself.
quote
where on his body was he wearing it,
It was in it's holster.
quote
was it visible before the confrontation or concealed, or did he already have it out?
It was concealed, if it wasn't there would be a ton of stories about the crazy guy chasing a kid waving a gun around.
quote
We know where this ended and the result. We also know that it would not have happened if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, kept his distance, and wasn't armed. The way he was talking to the 911 operator made it seem like he was setting up a defense for what he ultimately did.
Or perhaps he was just doing the job he volunteered to do, protect his neighborhood.
quote
The bottom line is that no one should get a free pass for killing another. Zimmerman should be tried for what he did. Maybe then all the facts will come out and justice can be served.
So you think he's getting a free pass for killing someone? Lets see, there is a price on his head, people are betting that he won't live another month, and he has to live with the guilt of having killed someone for the rest of his life. Do you think that is a free pass for defending himself?
I think that the only "fact" right now is that the media, and the civil rights groups are using this as an excuse to make money at the expense of an innocent mans life. (And this is true no matter who is found to be the guilty party.) And suckers everywhere are buying into it hook line and sinker.
The Media has already started back peddling, because not enough people bought the line of bull they have been pushing. There has been enough evidence out that everyone in here should at least wonder if Zimmerman isn't just being railroaded so that a few people can make money. I'd be ashamed of myself if I thought like you do on this, and instantly want someone that very well could be innocent to die, very ashamed. Brad
Originally posted by carnut122: I hate to jump in on your post, but I guess I will. If Zimmerman did not place himself into this predicament by following Martin (who was clearly not breaking any laws), I'd agree with you 100%. But, since Zimmerman took himself from a place of safety and injected himself into this situation (against the advice of the dispatcher and common sense that was falsely fortified with the fact he was "packing"), I have a hard time accepting a pure "I was just defending my life" theory. Had Zimmerman been minding his own business and Martin approached him and picked a fight, then I'd accept the situation as self-defense.
I keep seeing people saying that it was WRONG for Zimmerman to follow Martin. Why is that, exactly?
If your neighborhood had a string of burglaries, and you saw someone 'suspicious' (suspicious enough to call the police), wouldn't YOU want to keep that person in sight until the police were on scene to figure out the details? If not, why not?
The police can't investigate someone if there's nobody there to point out who they should be checking.
The 911 operator has zero authority to issue any lawful order. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
I keep seeing people saying that it was WRONG for Zimmerman to follow Martin. Why is that, exactly?
If your neighborhood had a string of burglaries, and you saw someone 'suspicious' (suspicious enough to call the police), wouldn't YOU want to keep that person in sight until the police were on scene to figure out the details? If not, why not?
The police can't investigate someone if there's nobody there to point out who they should be checking.
The 911 operator has zero authority to issue any lawful order. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
Keep the person in sight yes, get out of the vehicle and confront, no.
Originally posted by carnut122: I hate to jump in on your post, but I guess I will. If Zimmerman did not place himself into this predicament by following Martin (who was clearly not breaking any laws), I'd agree with you 100%. But, since Zimmerman took himself from a place of safety and injected himself into this situation (against the advice of the dispatcher and common sense that was falsely fortified with the fact he was "packing"), I have a hard time accepting a pure "I was just defending my life" theory. Had Zimmerman been minding his own business and Martin approached him and picked a fight, then I'd accept the situation as self-defense.
There have been cases in a self defense shooting where leaving a place of safety and going looking for the other person was the difference between guilty and not-guilty. The reason being the person went looking for trouble.
Does that apply here? (earlier in this thread, I mentioned this could make Zimmerman guilty - it still might) Well, in his actions as community watch, it's reasonable for him to observe and report suspicious people to police - which he did. One version of events were that he was trying to keep Martin in sight until Police arrived. None of that is in any way illegal and unreasonable as part of community watch. The manner of their first interaction is the issue. Did Zimmerman approach and challenge Martin? Did Martin approach and attack Zimmerman?
By definition, anyone involved in community watch is "looking for trouble." Had Zimmerman been "minding his own business" this might not have happened - but that would also have to include not being part of community watch since that was his business at the time.
Seems people have made up their minds, even I have leanings to what I think but it would be nice to have the ability to hear both sides instead of one, instead we are left to guess. It would be nice to have more facts and as more aspects come to light we may have a better understanding. Who knows how murky this may get now.
Someone mentioned that Zimmermans father was a judge should we assume because of that he knew what to tell the police as to not get arrested? People are claiming that Zimmerman can be heard saying "****ing Coons". Is it fair to judge either party by such things? Doesn't change the fact that a child who apparently was just taking a walk to the store was gunned down in what could have been a complete misunderstanding. Tragic.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-27-2012).]
For whatever reason, there's nothing going on here that's surprising me one bit. Zimmerman is slowly being vindicated, yet the brainwashed masses and opportunists are still holding on to their uninformed, preconceived notions of his guilt. Just sad. And now Spike Lee got his dickskinners on Zimmerman's address and made it public. Gee, what oh what could have been his motive for doing that.....
I wonder what it would look like if this were a black guy who killed a white guy, and the klan put out a reward for the black guy's "apprehension", and say, Clint Eastwood obtained his address and leaked it. I sure bet it would be a lot less politically correct than the present activities.
For whatever reason, there's nothing going on here that's surprising me one bit. Zimmerman is slowly being vindicated, yet the brainwashed masses and opportunists are still holding on to their uninformed, preconceived notions of his guilt. Just sad. And now Spike Lee got his dickskinners on Zimmerman's address and made it public. Gee, what oh what could have been his motive for doing that.....
I wonder what it would look like if this were a black guy who killed a white guy, and the klan put out a reward for the black guy's "apprehension", and say, Clint Eastwood obtained his address and leaked it. I sure bet it would be a lot less politically correct than the present activities.
I wonder what it would look like if this were a black guy who killed a white guy, and the klan put out a reward for the black guy's "apprehension", and say, Clint Eastwood obtained his address and leaked it. I sure bet it would be a lot less politically correct than the present activities.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by carnut122: I hate to jump in on your post, but I guess I will. If Zimmerman did not place himself into this predicament by following Martin (who was clearly not breaking any laws), I'd agree with you 100%. But, since Zimmerman took himself from a place of safety and injected himself into this situation (against the advice of the dispatcher and common sense that was falsely fortified with the fact he was "packing"), I have a hard time accepting a pure "I was just defending my life" theory. Had Zimmerman been minding his own business and Martin approached him and picked a fight, then I'd accept the situation as self-defense.
quote
Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner!
Kevin
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And a woman who wears provocative cloths is to blame if she gets raped.
The implication here is that one should just never get involved. I suppose you guys would have the same opinion about a neighbor who sees someone suspicious eyeballing your house while you're on vacation?
[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 03-27-2012).]
Originally posted by carnut122: I hate to jump in on your post, but I guess I will. If Zimmerman did not place himself into this predicament by following Martin (who was clearly not breaking any laws), I'd agree with you 100%. But, since Zimmerman took himself from a place of safety and injected himself into this situation (against the advice of the dispatcher and common sense that was falsely fortified with the fact he was "packing"), I have a hard time accepting a pure "I was just defending my life" theory. Had Zimmerman been minding his own business and Martin approached him and picked a fight, then I'd accept the situation as self-defense.
So because Zimmerman placed himself into this predicament by following Martin he no longer has the right to self defense? That is what your saying isn't it? I disagree.
For me the question is who initiated the physical confrontation. None of us know this at this point and we may never know it but if Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation then its murder. If Martin initiated the physical confrontation then its self defense.
You mean, witnesses? Those people that you said earlier didn't exist? 
