Martin was somewhere between 6'0" and 6'3" Zimmerman is 5'8"
Brad
I've seen reports that Martin was between 6' and 6'2" and 170-180 lbs. Zimmerman has been reported 5'7" - 5'9" and about 170-175 lbs.
In the "official media version" picture usually shown, Martin appears about 12-14 years old and about 140lbs, while Zimmerman was 21 years old and about 240lbs.
Take from it whatever you will, I simply linked some interesting "facts" from the wiki comparing the two people involved, instead of centering on one person only.
Very true. A WHITEhispanic man killing a black CHILD is much more interesting than a black CHILD killing two white British tourists. I'm not sure why, but apparently it is.
It's also apparently much more interesting than a black man named Trayvon being killed by another black man.
Hes absolutley right... again I say I really hate how this whole ordeal Has become a foundation for Jokes such as the black panter party to try and istagate a race War between blacks and white's'... As I recall Wasent It because of a white mans actions and presidency that slavery was abolished? (Aberhame lincoln) People like the black panter party need to relize This isant the late 1800's all the way up until Matin luther kings era... The only White sheets most people have in there closet now is bed spreads...
[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 05-20-2012).]
It really isn’t a joke, not anymore; many people of color have a chip on their shoulder about white people no matter if they are a street thug or the President or anyone in between. Most don’t that I know so don’t get your panties in a bunch there Newf. I ran into one yesterday out of Nashville driving a rig that also stopped at Kentucky fried as well. I saw him walking around the front of the rig and asked him if he was lost. “No why do you ask?” he said “The truck says you are out of Nashville.” He replied “Oh ya I forget that’s on their sometimes.” And just smiled Nice guy, never even gave it a second thought as we talked about what he had for a load. He was headed to my old home town to a paper mill with paper machine belts. Shook his hand as I was on my way home after getting my order and told him to "keep it between the ditches". He looked at me and said “thanks, you used to drive didn’t you?” Long ago and far away I replied and we went our separate ways.
The thing is that those who want a race war are in the minority but they are there and trying to incite it by using things like this tragedy where one young man’s life was snuffed out and another’s will be destroyed by what happened whether it was self-defense or not.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
The thing is that those who want a race war are in the minority but they are there and trying to incite it by using things like this tragedy where one young man’s life was snuffed out and another’s will be destroyed by what happened whether it was self-defense or not.
There are those who would want to divide our nation by any means possible, race is just one of them. This whole incident is not race related, as the media has tried to spin it, doing so was irresponsible and inappropriate on their part. A young man is dead because of choices made by both parties. A trial is needed so that guilt or innocence may be established. Zimmerman may ultimately be found not guilty, but that doesn't change the fact that his decisions and actions culminated with the death of Martin, be it his fault or not. If he had decided to stay in his truck this story would not have been news worthy.
If he had decided to stay in his truck this story would not have been news worthy.
That is simply an opinion and not a fact. No one knows what would have happened if he had stayed in his truck. The kid could have just walked away, but he also could have gone over to his truck because he was being followed by the guy in the truck. From the facts as reported by the media so far the shooter was no longer following the kid and he still attacked Zimmerman.
What has happened is fact, but we only know what happened by the media reports and those so far have been colored by their own agenda.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
There are those who would want to divide our nation by any means possible, race is just one of them. This whole incident is not race related, as the media has tried to spin it, doing so was irresponsible and inappropriate on their part. A young man is dead because of choices made by both parties. A trial is needed so that guilt or innocence may be established. Zimmerman may ultimately be found not guilty, but that doesn't change the fact that his decisions and actions culminated with the death of Martin, be it his fault or not. If he had decided to stay in his truck this story would not have been news worthy.
I heard that same pathetic excuse used in a rape case where a guy killed the rapist. If it wasn't for his intervention that nice rapist would still be alive.
There are those who would want to divide our nation by any means possible, race is just one of them. This whole incident is not race related, as the media has tried to spin it, doing so was irresponsible and inappropriate on their part. A young man is dead because of choices made by both parties. A trial is needed so that guilt or innocence may be established. Zimmerman may ultimately be found not guilty, but that doesn't change the fact that his decisions and actions culminated with the death of Martin, be it his fault or not. If he had decided to stay in his truck this story would not have been news worthy.
The lesson here is, if you see someone suspicious, you should run away from them and whatever you do, don't get our of your vehicle, because if they try to kill you, it's your fault for being there.
There also wouldn't be any rape if girls didn't wear revealing clothing. And it's your own fault you got mugged because you had nice clothes and some valuables.
The lesson here is, if you see someone suspicious, you should run away from them and whatever you do, don't get our of your vehicle, because if they try to kill you, it's your fault for being there.
There also wouldn't be any rape if girls didn't wear revealing clothing. And it's your own fault you got mugged because you had nice clothes and some valuables.
The lesson here is, if you see someone suspicious, you should run away from them and whatever you do, don't get our of your vehicle, because if they try to kill you, it's your fault for being there.
There also wouldn't be any rape if girls didn't wear revealing clothing. And it's your own fault you got mugged because you had nice clothes and some valuables.
Your comparisons seem to suggest it's NOT OK to judge someone else by how they are dressed while at the same time you seem to defend the following of a child due to the same reasoning??? Please clarify!
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 05-21-2012).]
Your comparisons seem to suggest it's NOT OK to judge someone else by how they are dressed while at the same time you seem to defend the following of a child due to the same reasoning??? Please clarify!
You seem to suggest that someone only looks suspicious only because of how they are dressed, and not because of their actions.
Originally posted by newf: Your comparisons seem to suggest it's NOT OK to judge someone else by how they are dressed while at the same time you seem to defend the following of a child due to the same reasoning??? Please clarify!
I got it, what's so hard to fathom ? Let me clarify. It's not ok to see a 'prettily dressed woman and think rape is ok. Now, if you think she might be a prostitute working in an area known for prostitution, it's ok to be suspicious. If someone is dressed like a hood and is acting like a hood, it's ok to be suspicious. If your job, volunteer or otherwise, is to watch over the hood, closer curiosity is warranted.
Oh and feel free to point out exactly what it was that warranted following, his clothes or his walking, or maybe both???
How about the fact that Zimmerman said the kid was acted strangely and looked to be drunk or stoned, and the fact that there had been a recent rash of break-ins in the neighbourhood? And the fact that he didn't belong in the neighbourhood?
That is simply an opinion and not a fact. No one knows what would have happened if he had stayed in his truck. The kid could have just walked away, but he also could have gone over to his truck because he was being followed by the guy in the truck. From the facts as reported by the media so far the shooter was no longer following the kid and he still attacked Zimmerman.
Nothing would have happened if Zimmerman had chosen to stay in his truck. Martin walked past Zimmerman's parked truck on his way home. There is no evidence to support that Zimmerman had his altercation with Martin next to or near his truck, that simply did not happen. Zimmerman got out of his truck and chased Martin on foot until he met up with him at the spot where he ultimately ended up killing him. The crime scene is nowhere near the truck, it is behind the buildings where the truck would not have been able to follow, unless it was driven over the curve, and the backyards of several of the residents, that did not occur, nor is there any evidence of that happening. The truck was left parked near the mailboxes near the clubhouse. This is known from the conversation Zimmerman had with the police dispatcher. He explained a few times where his truck was parked and was supposed to meet the police officers there when they arrived. He chose instead to leave his vehicle and pursue Martin on foot. I have posted the transcript of the telephone conversation and a map of the neighborhood in this thread. Make your own conclutions from those two facts. It would have been very hard for Zimmerman to shot Martin if (A) he had remained in his truck and (B) left Martin to continue on his way home. Martin was already past the truck, and on the sidewalk that ran behind his home, when he met with Zimmerman face to face. The location were Martin was shot by Zimmerman has been corroborated by several witnesses and by his body and a spent shell being found there. It is safe to conclude that Martin would not have been shot if Zimmerman had not left his truck to pursue him. Martin had already walked past him on his way home. It would have been physically impossible for Zimmerman to shoot him due to the locations of the truck and the crime scene not being in a direct line of sight, or fire. Zimmerman had to leave his truck because Martin was walking out of sight from where he was. All of this is known from the telephone conversation Zimmerman was having with the police dispatcher. The transcript of the conversation is on page 9 of this thread and the map of the neighborhood is on page 14.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-21-2012).]
Oh and feel free to point out exactly what it was that warranted following, his clothes or his walking, or maybe both???
I pointed out the post when I quoted you.
Let me elaborate. You seem to "suggest" that Zimmerman just called the Police because Martin was wearing a Hoodie, not because he was acting suspicious by his action as the Police tape shows.
According the to Police transcript I read Zimmerman said Martin was behind a building, peering into the windows, acting funny/ high, and was therefore suspicious. I'm fairly certain YOU are the one that seem to think he looked suspicious because of what he was wearing.
Zimmerman wouldn't have needed to shoot Martin if Martin wasn't trying to pound his head into the ground. Getting out of your vehicle isn't a crime. Pounding someone's head into the pavement is. If we're playing "what if" on who could have done something different to avoid Martin's death - I'll have to go with Martin's attacking Zimmerman.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-21-2012).]
Nothing would have happened if Zimmerman had chosen to stay in his truck. Martin walked past Zimmerman's parked truck on his way home. There is no evidence to support that Zimmerman had his altercation with Martin next to or near his truck, that simply did not happen. Zimmerman got out of his truck and chased Martin on foot until he met up with him at the spot where he ultimately ended up killing him. The crime scene is nowhere near the truck, it is behind the buildings where the truck would not have been able to follow, unless it was driven over the curve and the backyards of several of the residents, that did not occur nor is there any evidence of that happening. The truck was left parked near the mailboxes near the clubhouse. This is known from the conversation Zimmerman had with the police dispatcher. He explained a few times where his truck was parked and was supposed to meet the police officers there when they arrived. He chose instead to leave his vehicle and pursue Martin on foot. I have posted the transcript of the telephone conversation and a map of the neighborhood in this thread. Make your own conclutions from those two facts.
There you go skewing the facts again.
OK, #1. Martin did not live there, it wasn't his home. If you are going to keep missing that little fact this far into the thread there is a good chance you do not care about the truth.
#2. Zimmerman did not chase anyone, he followed, I'll even hear pursued in the loosest term of the word.
In the end I believe that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and Zimmerman acted in self defense, which is actually what the past few posts (quotes) from the court case are showing.
I've got you counted as one of the few that will never apologize when the truth (which is almost all already out) comes out.
Want me on your side? Post Martins address of where he was going, and explain why he was behind the clubhouse out of his way, in the rain peering into the windows. Make it make sense, and stop bs'ing us.
Zimmerman wouldn't have needed to shoot Martin if Martin wasn't trying to pound his head into the ground. Getting out of your vehicle isn't a crime. Pounding someone's head into the pavement is. If we're playing "what if" on who could have done something different to avoid Martin's death - I'll have to go with Martin's attacking Zimmerman.
"What if " Martin was just trying to fight off this weird guy that ran up to him out of the blue? Didn't Martin have the right to "stand his ground" or is that out because he is black? Getting one's azz beat up for being a fool does not give one the right to kill someone else. All things being equal, he only had the right to defend himself with equal force and to fight back. Having a handgun in a fist fight is a recipe for disaster.
"What if " Martin was just trying to fight off this weird guy that ran up to him out of the blue? Didn't Martin have the right to "stand his ground" or is that out because he is black? Getting one's azz beat up for being a fool does not give one the right to kill someone else. All things being equal, he only had the right to defend himself with equal force and to fight back. Having a handgun in a fist fight is a recipe for disaster.
Wait, because he was black? Where did that come from?
OK, #1. Martin did not live there, it wasn't his home. If you are going to keep missing that little fact this far into the thread there is a good chance you do not care about the truth.
#2. Zimmerman did not chase anyone, he followed, I'll even hear pursued in the loosest term of the word.
In the end I believe that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and Zimmerman acted in self defense, which is actually what the past few posts (quotes) from the court case are showing.
I've got you counted as one of the few that will never apologize when the truth (which is almost all already out) comes out.
Want me on your side? Post Martins address of where he was going, and explain why he was behind the clubhouse out of his way, in the rain peering into the windows. Make it make sense, and stop bs'ing us.
#1 If Martin didn't live there where the hell was he going to? It may not have been his permanent address but it was his home for the time he was there. #2 What do you consider a chase? I consider someone running after another person a chase, especially if this is done because the person they are following is going out of their sight and running away from them. If you want to know where Martin lived it is the last house, on the right side, on the bottom of the picture I posted, off the sidewalk his body was found on. What makes you say he was behind the clubhouse or peering into windows? I don't need you to be on "my" side. You need to be a bit less biased yourself. My side is that there were mistakes made by both parties, it's up to the court to decide how bad these mistakes were and if anyone deserves to be punished because of them.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-21-2012).]
#1 If Martin didn't live there where the hell was he going to? It may not have been his permanent address but it was his home for the time he was there.
Was it? I read it was his fathers girlfriend's house.
quote
#2 What do you consider a chase? I consider someone running after another person a chase, especially if this is done because the person they are following is going out of their sight and running away from them.
You are the one saying that Zimmerman was running after Martin. You.... There is zero evidence to prove this at all.
quote
If you want to know where Martin lived it is the last house, on the right side, on the bottom of the picture I posted, off the sidewalk his body was found on. What makes you say he was behind the clubhouse or peering into windows? I don't need you to be on "my" side. You need to be a bit less biased yourself.
The recording where Zimmerman called the Police to report a suspicious person behind the clubhouse, peering into the windows.
My "bias" is saying that Zimmerman might be innocent, and that we all need to step back and look at the facts before we do something we regret later. Your bias is claiming Zimmerman was racist, and ignoring facts in order to further some bizarre agenda where Zimmerman ends up dead.
Let me elaborate. You seem to "suggest" that Zimmerman just called the Police because Martin was wearing a Hoodie, not because he was acting suspicious by his action as the Police tape shows.
According the to Police transcript I read Zimmerman said Martin was behind a building, peering into the windows, acting funny/ high, and was therefore suspicious. I'm fairly certain YOU are the one that seem to think he looked suspicious because of what he was wearing.
Brad
Yup must be just me and Geraldo. hahaha
Honestly though I agree that as a neighbourhood watch captain Zimmerman was right to be wary, however IMO following the kid after it was suggested that he not do so and being told to meet the Police was stupid (not a crime but something that may have led to the altercation when there was no need of one).
Please show where you read he "was behind a building, peering into the windows" I haven't seen that as of yet.
Honestly though I agree that as a neighbourhood watch captain Zimmerman was right to be wary, however IMO following the kid after it was suggested that he not do so and being told to meet the Police was stupid (not a crime but something that may have led to the altercation when there was no need of one).
I am not a neighborhood watch person.
Today my MIL called to tell me that someone in a white beat up Chevy was at my place in the country, and she ran them off and they headed toward town. She described the people, and the truck, but wasn't able to get the tags. I went outside to get in the car and a block away a White beat up Chevy came roaring into the yard of a house. Two people matching the description got out, and went in the house.
I started the camera on my phone, and drove past to get the plate number, and truck on camera. As I was driving by a few people came running out, and jumped into another truck. I calmly drove to the Police station with a truckload of rednecks following me. I pulled in, went inside, and shut off the camera (no sense getting arrested). The idiots followed me in, and wanted me arrested for recording their house. I explained to the Chief that I was getting the plate number of the truck, and a description so when things came up missing I knew where to point the Police to. They denied being anywhere around there, claimed they had just got back from work etc. (obvious meth heads btw) The Police told them they were done there, and to have no contact with me, they left. After they left the Chief told me they were under surveillance, and had to wait for the lab reports to come back before arrests could be made.
In the meantime, if the Police station had been closed (very likely here as we have one officer, 3 hours a day) I would have had my rear end beat by a truckload of druggies, and likely be in the hospital, or worse because of it. I'm not scared of that, it's just what would have happened.
Was it stupid for me to go past their house with a camera? Sure, but say tonight the 200 foot of fence, and posts I just got dissapeared, or all the paint I have in the living room. What if someone loads up some of my Fiero parts and I have no evidence other than "White Chevy" of who I suspect? The Police made it clear that they were not going anywhere, and the crack heads know I'm not scared of them.
Now we get to split shifts on sleeping for the next few days, one of the bad things about living down the street from a crack house, with limited Police, also another reason we are moving.
Today my MIL called to tell me that someone in a white beat up Chevy was at my place in the country, and she ran them off and they headed toward town. She described the people, and the truck, but wasn't able to get the tags. I went outside to get in the car and a block away a White beat up Chevy came roaring into the yard of a house. Two people matching the description got out, and went in the house.
I started the camera on my phone, and drove past to get the plate number, and truck on camera. As I was driving by a few people came running out, and jumped into another truck. I calmly drove to the Police station with a truckload of rednecks following me. I pulled in, went inside, and shut off the camera (no sense getting arrested). The idiots followed me in, and wanted me arrested for recording their house. I explained to the Chief that I was getting the plate number of the truck, and a description so when things came up missing I knew where to point the Police to. They denied being anywhere around there, claimed they had just got back from work etc. (obvious meth heads btw) The Police told them they were done there, and to have no contact with me, they left. After they left the Chief told me they were under surveillance, and had to wait for the lab reports to come back before arrests could be made.
In the meantime, if the Police station had been closed (very likely here as we have one officer, 3 hours a day) I would have had my rear end beat by a truckload of druggies, and likely be in the hospital, or worse because of it. I'm not scared of that, it's just what would have happened.
Was it stupid for me to go past their house with a camera? Sure, but say tonight the 200 foot of fence, and posts I just got dissapeared, or all the paint I have in the living room. What if someone loads up some of my Fiero parts and I have no evidence other than "White Chevy" of who I suspect? The Police made it clear that they were not going anywhere, and the crack heads know I'm not scared of them.
Now we get to split shifts on sleeping for the next few days, one of the bad things about living down the street from a crack house, with limited Police, also another reason we are moving.
Originally posted by newf: Please show where you read he "was behind a building, peering into the windows" I haven't seen that as of yet.
quote
HANNITY: Yes. Why don't you walk us through because you obviously have spoken to your son? Tell us his side of this story on this night. Tell us what happened.
ZIMMERMAN: Well, it's customary on Sunday night for George to go and do grocery shopping. He had been texting his sister and told her that he was going to go and do grocery shopping. He got in his vehicle to leave the community.
He saw somebody that did not live in the community walking behind some townhomes. That small gated community has had a lot of problems with burglaries and people coming into that community to commit crimes. So he thought that it was suspicious.
HANNITY: OK. So and I understand it was raining that night, and when you say that he saw Trayvon Martin walking behind townhomes. Are you saying that he was up-close to where the homes were? Is that why he was suspicious?
there is a youtube video with Zimmerman's Dad saying his son saw Martin behind a building, I thought he said Clubhouse, I guess it was Townhouse, I apologize for that mistake.
Brad
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 05-21-2012).]
"What if " Martin was just trying to fight off this weird guy that ran up to him out of the blue? Didn't Martin have the right to "stand his ground" or is that out because he is black? Getting one's azz beat up for being a fool does not give one the right to kill someone else. All things being equal, he only had the right to defend himself with equal force and to fight back. Having a handgun in a fist fight is a recipe for disaster.
That's the fun thing about playing "what if" isn't it? Also, all things are rarely equal. A 5'7" Zimmerman isn't equal to a 6'2" Martin.
Look, you've already made up your mind, like so many others, that Zimmerman is guilty and any gaps in what we know about what happened you'll fill in with whatever makes Zimmerman look bad. You say being a fool doesn't give one the right to kill someone else, but it also doesn't give Martin the right to try to beat Zimmerman to death. You mention equal force since Martin only had his fists, but if he was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the ground, Zimmerman would be very reasonable to fear for his life at that point. In that case, use of deadly force is reasonable.
As I've said over and over but most people keep ignoring, everything that lead up to the altercation isn't very relevant. IF Zimmerman initiated hostilities he's at fault and can't use a "self defense" plea. IF Martin initiated hostilities, Zimmerman's self defense plea is valid. The following, the getting out of the vehicle, the phone calls from both of them... all of that doesn't matter. What matters is who attacked who first. Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle may not have been the "right" thing to do in hindsight, but it's not an illegal act. The first illegal act was whichever one of them started the fight. My personal opinion is since Zimmerman did have a gun, he didn't likely start a fist fight with Martin. If he was going to start something, he probably would have shot Martin before getting pounded into the ground. Since Martin was physically fighting with him, I believe Martin was pissed that he was being followed and attacked Zimmerman, not knowing Zimmerman was armed. Of course, the evidence in the trial will determine, hopefully, what actually happened.
I admit I don't know what happened. I have my suspicions, but some people act like there's no need for a trial because they are so damn positive Zimmerman is guilty.
I think that is a very fair appraisal, F88. But..if Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he would have probably left it up to the Police to intervene, or at least question Martin. I think Zimmerman was a coward, and the possession of the firearm gave him 'Dutch courage'. And this is one example whereby I honestly believe if Zimmerman HADN'T been armed, he would not have tried to 'sort it all out' himself, but would have waited for the Police. And Martin would not be dead. This is genuinely where my reluctance to allow 'Mr.Nobody' the right to carry arms is rooted. I know this won't go down well with the 'right to bear arms' folk here...but think about what I have said...no gun, no death..And finally...don't believe for a MOMENT that height/weight/size ALWAYS goes with the winner...the smaller person can win more often than not
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 05-22-2012).]
Originally posted by fierofetish: ...And this is one example whereby I honestly believe if Zimmerman HADN'T been armed, he would not have tried to 'sort it all out' himself, but would have waited for the Police. And Martin would not be dead...
But since Zimmerman was the captain of the neighborhood watch, I can't help but wonder how many times he had tailed suspicious people while on duty without his firearm. How many of those turned into an altercation that resulted in Zimmerman getting knocked to the ground and having his head pounded into the sidewalk? Probably none. Did Zimmerman ever get noticed by those people he was keeping an eye on? Did he always run away and wait for the police? If he usually waited for the police without following the 'suspect', I might say it Zimmerman's courage from his firearm that led to this. But if he did everything he normally did, except this time he was armed, was it him or the actions of a punk kid that put this chain of events into motion?
Originally posted by avengador1: Didn't Martin have the right to "stand his ground" or is that out because he is black? Getting one's azz beat up for being a fool does not give one the right to kill someone else.
I'm so sick of people throwing racism into this. Zimmerman would have to be aggressive for Martin to "stand his ground" and last I checked asking someone what they are doing isn't aggressive. I'm not sure about Florida but in Missouri you have to be in fear for your life to "stand your ground" unless its on your private property (i.e. Castle Doctrine) Guess what if I was in Zimmerman's place with a guy on top of me I'd be in fear for my life. I would ask why didn't Martin call the cops but after some of the more recent posts I see why (see the fight club article)
Originally posted by fierofetish: But..if Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he would have probably left it up to the Police to intervene, or at least question Martin. I think Zimmerman was a coward, and the possession of the firearm gave him 'Dutch courage'. And this is one example whereby I honestly believe if Zimmerman HADN'T been armed, he would not have tried to 'sort it all out' himself, but would have waited for the Police. And Martin would not be dead. This is genuinely where my reluctance to allow 'Mr.Nobody' the right to carry arms is rooted.
That's a utopian thought where more than likely a criminal would have a gun, even if disallowed. Mr Nobody get's one too.
I think that is a very fair appraisal, F88. But..if Zimmerman hadn't had a gun, he would have probably left it up to the Police to intervene, or at least question Martin. I think Zimmerman was a coward, and the possession of the firearm gave him 'Dutch courage'. And this is one example whereby I honestly believe if Zimmerman HADN'T been armed, he would not have tried to 'sort it all out' himself, but would have waited for the Police. And Martin would not be dead. This is genuinely where my reluctance to allow 'Mr.Nobody' the right to carry arms is rooted. I know this won't go down well with the 'right to bear arms' folk here...but think about what I have said...no gun, no death..And finally...don't believe for a MOMENT that height/weight/size ALWAYS goes with the winner...the smaller person can win more often than not
If you are going to keep missing that little fact this far into the thread there is a good chance you do not care about the truth. 
