It's absolutely a tragedy no matter what actually transpired. A young man is dead. Whether he threw it away or had it taken from him, he lost his life. Another man has to live with the fact that he killed another human being. Guilty or innocent, he'll carry that burden the rest of his life.
Killing a man is easy; living with it after is the hardest part. Whether it was in self-defense or not it will always haunt you. Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
After watching the 7-11 video, I am shocked at Martin's size. From media reports, he was still a 5' child. Martyin looks rather large compared to everything in that store. I wonder what the height/weight of both parties were at the time of the shooting?
I mention this, because it has always appeared that Martin was of small stature, and Zimmerman of large stature in comparison. I can clearly see that Martin is a much larger individual than reported.
Many on this forum have never been involved in an altercation. Personally, I have been involved in hundreds. (Yes, hundreds.) A much larger aggressor is easier to judge, but is much more physically imposing. A smaller aggressor is quicker, less easily to judge, and is often not at a disadvantage. Too many parameters to figure each out, but everyone can understand an impeading force coming at ya.
Personally, the DA is pointing out the fact that Zimmerman left his vehicle. Well, duh! (A bit of advice to the novices...) YOU NEVER STAY IN YOUR VEHICLE DURING AN ATTACK. NEVER! (Consider that a bit of Detroit advice to help protect your loved ones. )
Personally, the DA is pointing out the fact that Zimmerman left his vehicle. Well, duh! (A bit of advice to the novices...) YOU NEVER STAY IN YOUR VEHICLE DURING AN ATTACK. NEVER! (Consider that a bit of Detroit advice to help protect your loved ones. )
TOny
Not to start an argument, Tony, just to point something out.
He (Zimmerman) didn't leave his vehicle DURING an attack.....he exited his vehicle prior to any of this occurring....that is to say BEFORE the "attack." There's been no evidence whatsoever that anything occurred in or around his vehicle. IMO It's doubtful any of this incident would've happened had he simply remained in his vehicle in the first place.
I truely did not know that detail. I can see a case if he followed, then exited the vehicle to confront Martin. Escape is ALWAYS the first avenue. Defense is second. (Sometimes I do forget internet interpulation. )
It's absolutely a tragedy no matter what actually transpired. A young man is dead. Whether he threw it away or had it taken from him, he lost his life. Another man has to live with the fact that he killed another human being. Guilty or innocent, he'll carry that burden the rest of his life.
Right, Martin would have continued on his way to the Orphanage to give the poor children candy, then on to Seminary.
"Ignore the stoned punk snooping behind the building you pay for every month, or we'll put a bounty on your head." I gotcha.
Brad
Do you have evidence that he was snooping behind the buildings or even "stoned"? THC in the system doesn't mean he was stoned or up to something more sinister IMO.
I'm sorry but even IF Martin was "casing" the neighbourhood or "up to no good" if Zimmerman had simply reported what he saw, remained in his vehicle and let the police handle the situation odds are Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman would not be facing a trial.
Do you have evidence that he was snooping behind the buildings or even "stoned"? THC in the system doesn't mean he was stoned or up to something more sinister IMO.
Do you have evidence that he was innocent and didn't attack Zimmerman for no reason?
So far the evidence is showing that he was on drugs, had a "record" of stealing things, dealt drugs, was suspended from school, and had been in regular fights. The bs from the "justice for Martin" side is smelling more every day.
Brad
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 05-18-2012).]
Originally posted by newf: ... if Zimmerman had simply reported what he saw, remained in his vehicle and let the police handle the situation odds are Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman would not be facing a trial.
That's quite possible, but irrelevant to the case. Getting out of his vehicle isn't illegal. Was it smart? That can be debated. What matters is who started the altercation. That's all that's ever mattered. Zimmerman may have initiated the encounter (that's yet to be proven), but that isn't illegal and it isn't the same as starting an altercation. Did he challenge Martin and Martin responded by punching him? Did Zimmerman run up and attack Martin?
Who started the "fight?" That's the question that has to be answered. And no, getting out of his vehicle isn't the legal equivalent of "starting the fight."
It's easy to play "what if" and think of actions that could have been done differently, but the issue isn't what might have been. The issue is what happened and whether or not Zimmerman broke the law.
That's quite possible, but irrelevant to the case. Getting out of his vehicle isn't illegal. Was it smart? That can be debated. What matters is who started the altercation. That's all that's ever mattered. Zimmerman may have initiated the encounter (that's yet to be proven), but that isn't illegal and it isn't the same as starting an altercation. Did he challenge Martin and Martin responded by punching him? Did Zimmerman run up and attack Martin?
Who started the "fight?" That's the question that has to be answered. And no, getting out of his vehicle isn't the legal equivalent of "starting the fight."
It's easy to play "what if" and think of actions that could have been done differently, but the issue isn't what might have been. The issue is what happened and whether or not Zimmerman broke the law.
I disagree with you on one point. In my eyes it doesn't matter who started the fight. Even if you start a fight, that does not give the other person a free ticket to try to kill you. Martin went over the line when he pinned Zimmerman down and was beating him. It was no longer a fight at that point and can be argued to be attempted murder.
Kelly Thomas was killed by police that broke his nose and placed their weight on his chest restricting his breathing, kocking him unconscious and ultimately killing him. Something similar could have easily happened here with a few more seconds of Trayvon beating Zimmerman with his weight on Zimmerman's chest.
Even if you start a fight, that does not give the other person a free ticket to try to kill you.
I don't necessarily disagree; however, as I understand the law in FL it does matter. I believe it's similar to the law here in NC which is very specific that if you instigate a fight you lose your right to use deadly force to defend yourself. The only way to regain that right is to attempt to withdraw from hostilities. If you try to stop fighting, and they continue to attack, then you may defend yourself with deadly force.
The law is very specific about it. (at least in NC, and I believe FL is similar) How that would be adjudicated in court, I don't know.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-18-2012).]
I'm don't necessarily disagree; however, as I understand the law in FL it does matter. I believe it's similar to the law here in NC which is very specific that if you instigate a fight you lose your right to use deadly force to defend yourself. The only way to regain that right is to attempt to withdraw from hostilities. If you try to stop fighting, and they continue to attack, then you may defend yourself with deadly force.
The law is very specific about it. (at least in NC, and I believe FL is similar) How that would be adjudicated in court, I don't know.
You can only withdraw from hostilities if you are able. If you are pinned, then clearly you can't withdraw. I'll bet if you read your state's law on this, it also states that if you make your intent clear that you do not want to fight, then that also counts as withdrawing. Zimmerman made his intent clear as he yelled for help 14 times as heard on the 911 tapes.
also some things that have been said was that the gun had one round shot and the next one was not chambered. On that gun if the slide doesn't move when fired it will not chamber the next round. that right there tells me that they were fighting for the gun! now i am not saying that zimmerman is justified for the whole thing but that does show martin was right. zimmerman was never told not to follow him just told that they didn't NEED him to do that. if he is found innocent he will still have no freedoms because of all the people who just think he is guilty with out looking at the facts! This story wouldn't even have been news if it was two black people or two white people.
Originally posted by Doug85GT: You can only withdraw from hostilities if you are able. If you are pinned, then clearly you can't withdraw. I'll bet if you read your state's law on this, it also states that if you make your intent clear that you do not want to fight, then that also counts as withdrawing. Zimmerman made his intent clear as he yelled for help 14 times as heard on the 911 tapes.
I have read the law. I've studied various scenarios to discuss when it applies and when it doesn't. It was taught as part of my concealed carry class. If you re-read my post carefully you notice I said "attempt to withdraw."
That's quite possible, but irrelevant to the case. Getting out of his vehicle isn't illegal. Was it smart? That can be debated. What matters is who started the altercation. That's all that's ever mattered. Zimmerman may have initiated the encounter (that's yet to be proven), but that isn't illegal and it isn't the same as starting an altercation. Did he challenge Martin and Martin responded by punching him? Did Zimmerman run up and attack Martin?
Who started the "fight?" That's the question that has to be answered. And no, getting out of his vehicle isn't the legal equivalent of "starting the fight."
It's easy to play "what if" and think of actions that could have been done differently, but the issue isn't what might have been. The issue is what happened and whether or not Zimmerman broke the law.
http://www.scrippsnews.com/...flect-homicide-shift Black-on-white killings grew from 8,503 to 8,530, while white-on-black slayings dropped from 4,745 to 4,380. Homicides involving all other racial combinations, including Asians and American Indians, rose from 3,854 to 4,981. These black-on-white or white-on-black killings are especially likely to occur in large urban states such as Florida, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York. Contrary to popular stereotypes, interracial killings are relatively rare in rural Deep South states, occurring at a rate well below the national average.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 05-18-2012).]
People have posted half a dozen incidents in this thread that happened since this where the races were reversed. No threads about them yet.
Brad
I agree with you in spirit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in each of those "reversed" threads, an arrest was made and and somebody will stand trial. I don't think Martin/Zimmerman would have been national news if an arrest was made and Zimmerman had not been released , but instead was prosecuted. It also seems that the local police department had a reputation/history (whether rightfully so or not) of not pursuing justice in previous homicides. Combine that with certain "minority leaders" on one side, the "right to carry" on the other side and the media fanning the flames, and you get the current situation.
It's fascinating to watch this... if I were the prosecuting attorney.. I'd probably give some valiant speech and then rest my case - because I WOULDN'T HAVE ONE. Especially with this new evidence...
Having seen the pictures, it does look like Zimmerman was on the losing end of a beating. I'm still curious how it will be played to a jury.
IMO the Trayvon killing hits many hot button topics that people find "interesting" that's why it was so publicized, not some sinister agenda by media or anyone else.
Witnesses testified that Tyson told them he saw two "crackers" -- his phrase for white people -- walking through the neighborhood and that he intended to rob them. The tourists said they didn't have any money and begged Tyson to let them go home. The men also told Tyson that they were lost.
"Since you ain't got no money, then I have something for your ass," Tyson recounted to a witness, then added that he shot the men several times.
If President Obama had a son who was a murderer, he'd look like Shawn Tyson. Tyson, a 17 year old CHILD, is the same age as The Blessed Trayvon™. That's why he got life instead of the death penalty.
quote
Originally posted by newf:
IMO the Trayvon killing hits many hot button topics that people find "interesting" that's why it was so publicized, not some sinister agenda by media or anyone else.
Very true. A WHITEhispanic man killing a black CHILD is much more interesting than a black CHILD killing two white British tourists. I'm not sure why, but apparently it is.
It's also apparently much more interesting than a black man named Trayvon being killed by another black man.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-18-2012).]
IMO the Trayvon killing hits many hot button topics that people find "interesting" that's why it was so publicized, not some sinister agenda by media or anyone else.
what about this one?
Wednesday, November 18, 2009 Horrific black-on-white killings As far as the rape, mutilation and murders of Channon Christian, 21 and Christopher Newsom, 23, some in the media are saying this case doesn't represent a hate crime. Well, it sure as hell doesn't symbolize a night of love and bonding between the young couple and those who butchered them. Was the cutting off of Chris' penis an act of human kindness? Was the cutting off of Channon's breast and pouring bleach down her throat an act of compassion and love? This was pure hatred, nothing less. How could any person of sound mind and thinking look at this case and say with absolute certainty that hate wasn't involved in the commission of the atrocities against Christian and Newsom? For full story click here.
I agree with you in spirit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in each of those "reversed" threads, an arrest was made and and somebody will stand trial. I don't think Martin/Zimmerman would have been national news if an arrest was made and Zimmerman had not been released , but instead was prosecuted. It also seems that the local police department had a reputation/history (whether rightfully so or not) of not pursuing justice in previous homicides. Combine that with certain "minority leaders" on one side, the "right to carry" on the other side and the media fanning the flames, and you get the current situation.
I'm not sure what's happened in each of them, perhaps one of our more enterprising members could update the posts. I'm not 100% on the Zimmerman situation prior to the Media mess, but the other day the News said the Original Prosecutor had started the paperwork for a Grand Jury before all of this happened. It could have just been the typical news bs though. The waters are so muddy on this entire thing that we can't see the leeches and sharks.
People keep minimizing the marks on Zimmerman's face and head, and perhaps they are watching too many movies, but last night (karate class) I got kicked in the head. To be more precise, the foot made contact with my lower jaw, and it spun my head around and I thought my jaw was broken. Guess what? Nothing broken, and no marks on my face, but yet I was seeing stars.
Here's the point, it does not take much of a shot to the head to create trauma, and knock you senseless. Those marks are very significant and tell me he was beaten pretty bad.
I live where this happen I had lost interest eyewitness have been on local radio here saying Trayvon attack Zimmerman. the President has sent the FBI to conduct a Hate crime investigation,,Zimmerman is step threaded ,interupted screw type breech screwed. the national media lied to you,,,BIG BIG LIAR the local blacks have figured out Zimmerman would walk & want a hate crime conviction Trayvon looks more like a scumbag punk criminal thief every day Trayvons wanderings were like a man casing the buildings Zimmerman had many years neigborhood watch,no real problems ,a thankless job !! I listen to a lot of talk radio & will monitor this for the forum for one week ,I hate it!! the first national reports I thought a man had killed a young innocent boy,a kid THE Local & national news were like 2 different events .. In my neighborhood I keep an eye on the black girls in short mini skirts who patrol my area in the late afternoon ,after work on friday
Did anyone notice my post about the size of Martin?
Can anyone post up about the size of both men? Zimmerman appears to me small in stature, while Martin is an imposing "boy". Age holds no relevance during a confrontation.
Did anyone notice my post about the size of Martin?
Can anyone post up about the size of both men? Zimmerman appears to me small in stature, while Martin is an imposing "boy". Age holds no relevance during a confrontation.
Tony
Martin was somewhere between 6'0" and 6'3" Zimmerman is 5'8"
The police estimated Trayvon at 6'0" and 160 pounds when they wrote the police report the night he was shot. This was probably a conservative estimate, as his family has reported his height at 6'2".
They linked to a police report but it's no longer up
[This message has been edited by Silentassassin185 (edited 05-19-2012).]
Literally" tens of thousands of publications and media outlets have reported that George Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds and Trayvon Martin weighed 140 pounds............. . Literally, thousands of media outlets have either reported false weights, or have stated "Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds." As far as I can tell, not a single media outlet has printed a retraction.
Brad
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 05-19-2012).]
I have to wonder if the colors where reversed if we would even be having this thread.
Steve
No, weve gotten accustomed to it. Just here in Columbus it happens nearly every day. It gets about 3 mins of air time for one day, then on to the next one. Mutilply that by say 50 major cities and its obvious its just a common incident. It does make more news if it happens to a white woman though.
According to the Sanford police incident report of Trayvon Martin's death, he was 6'0" tall and weighed 160 pounds; however, his family said he was actually 6-foot-3 and weighed at most 150 pounds.[32] The autopsy report said he was 5 feet 11 inches and 158 pounds.
Zimmerman's height is shown as 5'8" and his weight as 185 pounds on his Seminole County Sheriff's Office Inmate Booking Information dated 4/11/2012.
Also:
quote
Besides the fatal gunshot wound, the examiner also noted a "1/4 by 1/8 inch small abrasion on the left fourth finger".
quote
The autopsy report showed that Martin had trace levels of THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, in his blood and urine.[153][154] The toxicology report found the levels to be 1.5 nanograms/ml of THC and 7.3 nanograms/ml of THC-COOH, a metabolite of THC that can stay in the system for weeks after cannabis has been smoked.[153][154] Larry Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science stated that the THC amount was so low that it may have been ingested days earlier and played no role in Martin's behavior. "This kind of level can be seen days after somebody smokes"
According to the report, Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall and Temazepam prior to the shooting.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 05-19-2012).]
You really don't like white people do you? Or is it that you only care when it is a black person who gets hurt?
give it up the kid as far as the facts so far attacked the shooter. that could change but as far as the facts so far and witness reports the kid was beating the hell out of a man he already had on the ground.
What would you do if someone was sitting on top of you beatting the living sh!t out of you?
steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
I seen Adderal prescribed to many kids, over ten years, and have never seen it cause aggression, maybe Concerta, and I know they are chemically similar. If it was that adverse, I mean making him that aggressive, Zimmerman would have certainly discontinued it. These are doctor prescribed medications. All side effects must be reported in the literature, and I am certain many people would never know all the toxic effects of asprin, and there are many, but they are incrediably rare.
I think the THC in Trayvon's blood is probably not a prime mover in his behavior, but again it is character defining. Especially in dark contrast to what the media has portrayed him to be.
So he was wild and crazy because he was on medications that make him calm, and sleepy?
Is that what I am supposed to take from that?
Brad
Take from it whatever you will, I simply linked some interesting "facts" from the wiki comparing the two people involved, instead of centering on one person only.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 05-19-2012).]
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Martyin looks rather large compared to everything in that store. I wonder what the height/weight of both parties were at the time of the shooting?
(A bit of advice to the novices...) YOU NEVER STAY IN YOUR VEHICLE DURING AN ATTACK. NEVER! (Consider that a bit of Detroit advice to help protect your loved ones. 
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