I was under the impression that the American law system was largely based on the British system of common law and theirs was "copied" as you say.
Hahah... that sentence was JUST for you Newf!!!
But I think you're right. A "jury trial" actually goes much father back than that... I think honestly, the earliest forms of a trial probably go back even to tribal times... when a "tribal leader" would defer to the other elders, that was more or less a jury trial. The jury trial we know of today I think is more from like the times of Socrates and Plato. I do think, at least in terms of written law... that it originated in England... probably more so from the papacy than from the monarchy rule... but I'm just guessing here.
I want to say though that the "jury of your peers" is more American... becuase I tend to think that in other older nations (like England), the jury was made up of people who did that for a living. I could be totally wrong though... too lazy to look it up and this message board is far too anal for someone to not correct me!
One can hope, but i don't think he can. Regardless of innocent or guilt, i think the chances of it are slim to none.
Yep, Getting a fair trial in this case is going to be a stretch. I think that this is just a move to ease "racial tensions", yet another abuse of the system, but hey, at least this way if Zimmerman is found to be not guilty the people that have called him a racist, murderer, stalker etc. will step forward and apologize....Right??? The people that have called for his death will surely apologize, I'm almost certain of it.
Yea, I'm not holding my breath here.
Like I said at least now the truth will be out....
..but hey, at least this way if Zimmerman is found to be not guilty the people that have called him a racist, murderer, stalker etc. will step forward and apologize....Right??? The people that have called for his death will surely apologize, I'm almost certain of it.
Yea, I'm not holding my breath here.
It never happens in any other case. Lots of people are found innocent or not guilty in this country every day, not a single one of them receive an apology from the officers or prosecutors, or the "involved" public who helped try to nail them to the wall. Even people exhonerated on DNA evidence 20 years after they are locked up are hard up to get an apology for their life getting ruined.. it would be silly of Zimmerman (or you for that matter) to expect one if found innocent or not guilty, either. Yeah, don't hold your breath.
It never happens in any other case. Lots of people are found innocent or not guilty in this country every day, not a single one of them receive an apology from the officers or prosecutors, or the "involved" public who helped try to nail them to the wall. Even people exhonerated on DNA evidence 20 years after they are locked up are hard up to get an apology for their life getting ruined.. it would be silly of Zimmerman (or you for that matter) to expect one if found innocent or not guilty, either. Yeah, don't hold your breath.
I don't expect anyone to apologize to me personally.
I don't think anyone here that has said the things I said earlier have the stones to stand up and apologize for anything they have said. I'd like them to, but I'm not holding my breath. I expect it will all happen between the time Madcurl gives me that address, and Hell freezes over.
compared to some of the alternatives, i think a trial with legal representation, rules of evidence and public scrutiny beats the alternatives. this is obviously a hot topic, and i am hopeful that the evidence will be thoroughly examined and cooler heads will prevail. i don't know if zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. people like al sharpton and mike tyson need to remove themselves from the process, and talk of shooting more people needs to stop.
He told police he shot him because he looked "suspicious".
Nope, that is a complete fabrication. He said he shot him in self defense because Martin attacked him, punching him in the face and pounding his head into the sidewalk.
I don't see how it's possible. Find an impartial jury.
Theoretically, this case may not even go to a jury.
I asked a family friend who works in the Illinois State Attorney's office why Florida chose to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder vs. 1st degree, Man 1, Man 2, whatever. She said that the 2nd degree charge leaves the prosecution and defense with some flexibility as it relates to plea bargaining whereas 1st degree is much less accommodating due to the "premeditation" aspect of the charge. She added that 2nd degree is "the middle ground between Murder 1 and Manslaughter" and pleading down to Man 1 or 2 is common in Murder 2 situations.
All of this is hypothetical, of course. I get the impression that both sides fully anticipate a jury trial and that the defense will request a different venue for the trial.
One aspect I neglected to mention was something that has been talked about quite a bit since last night...the fact that a judge can during what is called an "Immunity Hearing" (a wrinkle in Florida's application of the "Stand Your Ground" law exclusively) determine that there is no basis for any further proceedings and opt to drop all charges summarily.
Honestly, I'd be surprised if that happens in this instance but it is another aspect worthy of consideration.
It never happens in any other case. Lots of people are found innocent or not guilty in this country every day, not a single one of them receive an apology from the officers or prosecutors, or the "involved" public who helped try to nail them to the wall. Even people exhonerated on DNA evidence 20 years after they are locked up are hard up to get an apology for their life getting ruined.. it would be silly of Zimmerman (or you for that matter) to expect one if found innocent or not guilty, either. Yeah, don't hold your breath.
If its decided he is not guilty and released, not only will he not receive an apology from anyone involved, he will still be hunted down and killed.
Although I completely believe Casey Anthony was guilty, when she was aquitted I didnt see anyone say they were sorry for accusing her.
I also felt she was guilty, but the system when through the process and she was found not guilty. That is the breaks, and legally she was not at fault and should be treated as such.
Now that's just silly. On what do you base that rather emotional assessment? The "million dollar bounty" or something even less concrete?
I credit you with a steadier head than that, Nurb.
You honestly think that him being acquitted would change the minds of those already convinced hes a racist killer? I don't. The people calling for his head, due to 'street justice' and putting out bounties are not rational people, i don't expect them to 'come to their sense' due to what the jury decides.
I would hope im wrong, but i have zero faith in those lunatics looking for a cause.
EDIT: and just as an aside, i have had indirect dealings with local groups of that 'caliber' and there is at least one dead kid due to their actions.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 04-12-2012).]
Will it be a jury trial? I should imagine that, if so, finding a Jury will be impossible...and how would it be selected? Equal amount of jurors from each 'ethnicity'? Held in an altogether different State? How does that work? And yes...I believe if he is tried and found not guilty, the story, and Mr.Zimmerman, will disappear from the Media, and therefore the memory of the populace, within weeks. Unless, like OJ, he is involved in another criminal investigation/trial, which would bring the spotlight straight back on him. But I could be wrong
Will it be a jury trial? I should imagine that, if so, finding a Jury will be impossible...and how would it be selected? Equal amount of jurors from each 'ethnicity'? Held in an altogether different State? How does that work? And yes...I believe if he is tried and found not guilty, the story, and Mr.Zimmerman, will disappear from the Media, and therefore the memory of the populace, within weeks. Unless, like OJ, he is involved in another criminal investigation/trial, which would bring the spotlight straight back on him. But I could be wrong
I'm sure it will have to be moved, and during the interviews for jurors you hope to find ones that are biased in one way or another.
I have a feeling that in this case, if he is found not guilty, you will hear even more about it in the "news". Until the next high profile shiny object arrives that is. They will milk this for as long as they can.
If hes convicted, i also expect the 'news' to latch on to that for weeks on end. And how 'racially biased' our country is, more anti gun talk and self protection rights.. bla bla bla
Remember this is being latched on due to a far different reason wtih OJ. He was just a famous person that did bad things and was good for ratings, this is being used for political reasons during election season.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 04-12-2012).]
The Left is always on the lookout for an opportunity to enact stricter gunlaws on the law-abidding public, and leads the charge in plea-bargaining criminal out of the penal system.
If the Federal Gun Laws were enforced, felons wouldn't get that 2nd chance to get out, get a gun and commit crimes. The penalties are actually incredibly strict.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 04-12-2012).]
Although I completely believe Casey Anthony was guilty, when she was aquitted I didnt see anyone say they were sorry for accusing her.
I believe that if you go back in my posts over time that you will find I personally do my best to never pass judgement on people in these cases, but rather try to show the sides I believe are being buried for whatever reasons. I'm sure I do make mistakes from time to time, and I try my best to redact such statments.
Casey was found guilty, of lying to the Police, a charge which landed Martha Stewart in Prison (remember that?) Since Casey had already served 1000 days or so in jail that was added to her time.
The jurors in the Casey Anthony case were not given the opportunity to find her guilty of a lesser charge. They could only consider the charges brought against her. I believe they would have found her guilty of a lesser charge if that was what she had been charged with. She pleaded guilty to 13 fraudulent check charges in a separate case, and still faces a defamation case for her Zenaida the nanny comments. The official charges she faced were first degree murder, aggravated man slaughter, aggravated child abuse, and four counts of providing false information to the police. She was only found guilty of four counts of lying to the police. Some think that she was overcharged and because of that the jury couldn't consider any lesser charges. These were never on the table to begin with.
The jurors in the Casey Anthony case were not given the opportunity to find her guilty of a lesser charge. They could only consider the charges brought against her. I believe they would have found her guilty of a lesser charge if that was what she had been charged with. She pleaded guilty to 13 fraudulent check charges in a separate case, and still faces a defamation case for her Zenaida the nanny comments. The official charges she faced were first degree murder, aggravated man slaughter, aggravated child abuse, and four counts of providing false information to the police. She was only found guilty of four counts of lying to the police. Some think that she was overcharged and because of that the jury couldn't consider any lesser charges. These were never on the table to begin with.
AHHH!!!! Another nation-wide jury trial... from Florida... of course.
I believe that if you go back in my posts over time that you will find I personally do my best to never pass judgement on people in these cases, but rather try to show the sides I believe are being buried for whatever reasons. I'm sure I do make mistakes from time to time, and I try my best to redact such statments.
Casey was found guilty, of lying to the Police, a charge which landed Martha Stewart in Prison (remember that?) Since Casey had already served 1000 days or so in jail that was added to her time.
Brad
Thought it was the act of insider training that got Martha into prison.
One can hope, but i don't think he can. Regardless of innocent or guilt, i think the chances of it are slim to none.
Trials are decided before the witnesses hit the courtroom and before the evidence is presented. Zimmerman's fate will rest on the selection of the jury.
Here are the steps in the legal process and possible strategies Zimmerman might take.
First appearance: Zimmerman appeared in court on Thursday for what amounted to a brief reading of the charge. Judge Mark E. Herr said he found probable cause to move ahead with the case with an arraignment held May 29 before Circuit Court Judge Jessica Recksiedler.
Bond hearing: O’Mara said Thursday he will submit a bond motion before the arraignment. If granted, Zimmerman would get out of jail while court proceedings continue. According to legal experts, to deny the bond motion, the state must have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman is clearly guilty of the charge against him. Here the judge could set the bond at whatever amount she sees fit. If the judge sets a high bond amount, Zimmerman’s attorney can make a motion to reduce it, arguing that Zimmerman doesn't have the money and isn't a risk to flee.
Arraignment: The May 29 arraignment is a formal reading of the charge against Zimmerman. According to legal experts, arraignments in Florida often take place electronically through the filing of paperwork with attorneys, and defendants do not necessarily need to appear in court.
Discovery of evidence: Under Florida legal rules, prosecutors have 15 days after an arrest to give the defense what evidence they have against Zimmerman. As a practical matter, prosecutors make available evidence as they get it. The evidence is expected to include witness testimony from Sanford police officers and others, forensic evidence, photographs and audio recordings. An unusual feature of legal procedure in Florida, according to attorneys, is that defense attorneys can subpoena prosecution witnesses to take part in depositions. In the depositions, witnesses are asked specific questions, on the record, about what they saw and heard along with more probing questions such as how well they see and hear, how close they were to the crime and if anyone else was nearby. These types of questions can also lead to the discovery of more witnesses and information. In other states, such questioning of prosecution witnesses only takes place during a trial.
Evidentiary hearing: Under the Stand Your Ground law, as interpreted by the Florida Supreme Court, a judge can grant Zimmerman immunity from prosecution in this type of hearing. Here is where Zimmerman is expected to tell why he feared for his life when he scuffled with Martin. Those hearings are like a “mini trials,” King said, in which experts on Zimmerman’s emotional state will also likely be called to testify, as well as any other witnesses in the case. If a judge decides there is enough evidence to show Zimmerman did act in self-defense based on the preponderance of the evidence, the judge can rule that Zimmerman can’t be prosecuted, essentially dismissing the criminal case.
Motion for change of venue: Typically one of the last motions before trial begins. Zimmerman’s attorney hasn’t said if he will seek to change where the trial takes place, or if it will take place in Seminole County Court in Sanford, where Martin was killed and emotions run high. Some say since publicity in the case is so widespread, there may be nowhere to find a jury not tainted by news coverage, and Sanford may be as good a place as any other location.
Trial: It could be at least a year before a trial, with the first step the choosing a jury. Here potential jurors are expected to be asked what they know about the case from media accounts, their feelings on race relations and other factors that may influence their decision-making. Attorneys from both sides will have the opportunity to ask questions and dismiss people they don’t believe are fit for the jury. Legal observers say the fact that Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager will be the central focus of prosecutors at trial. Prosecutors will need to contend that the block watch volunteer's shooting of Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will -- the necessary element to prove second-degree murder. The defense will argue that Zimmerman acted in self-defense and feared for his life. The jury can decide if Zimmerman is guilty of second-degree murder or the lesser charge of manslaughter.
Sentencing: In Florida, the judge will decide what sentence will be imposed if Zimmerman is found guilty.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-12-2012).]
Family Of Tulsa Couple Beaten In Home Invasion: 'They'd Do Anything For Anyone'
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 4:24 PM CST Updated: Mar 16, 2012 6:56 PM CST
Lori Fullbright, News On 6 - bio | email
The couple had been married more than 65 years, had six children and 18 grandchildren. They were great, great, great grandparents.
Bob Strait was a paratrooper in World War II. He was with the 101st airborne and was part of the D-day invasion. He was awarded the Bronze Star.
Nancy grew up in a log cabin in Kenwood, Oklahoma with no running water. She moved to Tulsa to work during the war.
As for the Straits' children, their focus is on the love their parents shared and helping their father cope.
Family members talked to News On 6 crime reporter Lori Fullbright about Bob and Nancy Strait, the elderly couple beaten in their home Wednesday during a robbery.
The couple had been married more than 65 years, had six children and 18 grandchildren. They were great, great, great grandparents.
They had been sick for the past week from food poisoning and the flu. They had just agreed to move into an assisted living facility the day before they were attacked so viciously. Nancy died from her injuries, Bob is still in the hospital.
Bob Strait was a paratrooper in World War II. He was with the 101st airborne where he was part of the D-day invasion. He was awarded the Bronze Star.
Nancy grew up in a log cabin in Kenwood, Oklahoma with no running water. She moved to Tulsa to work during the war.
The two met after the war ended.
"They met and three weeks later got married. Friday the 13th in 1946. They've been married 65 years and three months," said daughter Andra.
Nancy was a homemaker who made quilts and homemade jellies. Bob was a welder by trade and did woodworking for a hobby. The two did everything together; grocery shopping, doctor's visits, you name it.
"Mama was the kind, if you came in, she would say ‘go to the kitchen and help yourself with the groceries or let me get you something.' She fed everybody," Andra said.
"[Bob] is the kind of guy, your car breaks down on the highway, he could fix it. He'd stop and fix your car," said the Straits' son, Bob.
They would do anything for anyone, which makes it so hard to understand why the men who kicked in their back door beat them so viciously just to take their TV, $200 and a bb gun. Nancy didn't make it. Bob has a broken jaw, cracked ribs and a bb lodged in his face. They were already frail and in bad health.
"That's why this was so senseless, 97 pounds and a little over 100 pounds, weak from food poisoning and flu. They would've done anything," Lanora, daughter.
Tyrone Woodfork, 19, is in custody. He lived just four houses from the Straits. He was on a suspended sentence for a 2010 burglary conviction. Police say they are looking for four or five more suspects.
As for the Straits' children, their focus is on the love their parents shared and on helping their father cope.
"That's all dad could say when he heard mom passed, ‘I loved that woman, that old woman, for so long, I've loved that old woman,'" Lanora said.
The family wants to thank everyone for their good wishes and urges anyone who knows who the other suspects are to turn them in.
-----
But I'm sure the reason why the president and the media aren't all over this story is because the two elderly victims didn't have their Arizona ice tea and skittles with them, not because they are white, correct? It's just a damn good things neither of the two tried to defend themselves, otherwise they would be facing the same death threats as Zimmerman at the hands of the black community. Will your president likewise remark that if he had a son, he would look like Tyrone? I think not. Because we all know that racism is only a one way street in Obamaland. Amazingly enough, some blacks in the comments have remarked that this story is not as news worthy as it is made out to be, compared to atrocities committed against their people by the KKK, and also that the couple might have even deserved it because of "there was some racist blood in them, sad to say but I know the history of how blacks were raped, hung, drug behind cars." Other details coming out indicate that Nancy was not only beaten, she was also brutally raped by Tyrone.
Sickening.
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 04-13-2012).]
In my dream of an ideal world, they would take all the people involved in this and similar incidents, march them out to an abandoned field, stack bricks around them and forget where they left them.
That's so much better than locking them up and throwing away the key.
Unfortunately, ours is not an ideal world and evil has no skin tone.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-13-2012).]
Frankly, if things happened the way Zimmerman has described, and it can be proven as it seems it can, I would welcome a trial if I were him. Then when I'm found not guilty, I would sue the **** out of Sharpton, Jackson, that dumbass Spike Lee, the New Black Panther party, and every other asswipe who participated convicting me in the public eye, including the media who reported slanted stories.
Frankly, if things happened the way Zimmerman has described, and it can be proven as it seems it can, I would welcome a trial if I were him. Then when I'm found not guilty, I would sue the **** out of Sharpton, Jackson, that dumbass Spike Lee, the New Black Panther party, and every other asswipe who participated convicting me in the public eye, including the media who reported slanted stories.
Edit to add: and if it is proved he acted for any other reason, he is subject to the full force of the Law
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 04-13-2012).]
A probable cause affidavit filed in the second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman provides some insight into why Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey chose to charge Zimmerman in the fatal shooting of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
The four-page document prepared by prosecutors says that “Zimmerman confronted Martin.” Zimmerman had told police that he shot Martin in self-defense, fearing for his life after Martin punched him in the nose, knocked him down and then banged his head on the sidewalk.
The affidavit alleges Martin was “profiled by George Zimmerman.” It also states Martin was “unarmed and was not committing a crime.”
The affidavit says Martin’s mother identified screams heard in the background of a 911 call as her son’s. There had been some question as to whether Martin or Zimmerman was the one calling for help.
Trayvon Martin's supporters fought for weeks to win an arrest after the 17-year-old was fatally shot by a neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida. Now George Zimmerman's attorney has begun what could be a lengthy legal battle to free his client from the second-degree murder charge filed in the case.
According to the Associated Press, Zimmerman's bail hearing could take place on April 20. The first step for Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara will be to try to get his client out of jail while the legal process continues. Until then, Zimmerman remains at the Seminole County Jail, where he is being kept separate from the general population. On Thursday, Zimmerman stood straight and held his shaved head high during a four-minute hearing at a jailhouse courtroom while prosecutors briefly outlined their murder case in court papers. Zimmerman did not enter a plea during the hearing, although O'Mara previously said his client ultimately will plead not guilty. O'Mara asked the judge after Zimmerman had left to seal any forthcoming information in the case. The state and judge agreed to seal the information. On Thursday afternoon the affidavit of probable cause for second-degree murder from two veteran homicide investigators for special prosecutor Angela Corey was made public. The affidavit shows Zimmerman was the aggressor who chased Martin down. According to the affidavit, "Martin was unarmed and not committing a crime." "Zimmerman who also lived in the gated community, and was driving his vehicle observed Martin and assumed Martin was a criminal," the affidavit reads. Investigators quote Martin's friend who said he told her he was scared and attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman. The affidavit ends by saying, "The facts mentioned in this affidavit are not a complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but only are presented for a determination of Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder."
Zimmerman's Attorney Speaks
Zimmerman's arrest came after the case touched off a firestorm, including several marches, rallies and petitions calling for it. Martin was visiting his father and stepmother in Sanford on Feb. 26 when the shooting happened. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch program volunteer, confronted him while he was walking back to their home from a convenience store, according to the Martin family's attorneys. The shooting happened at Sanford's Retreat at Twin Lakes, a townhouse complex. The teen, according to investigators, was not carrying any weapons, just a bag containing Skittles and a can of iced tea. Zimmerman told police officers that the shooting was self-defense. He said the teen repeatedly slammed his head into the ground, according to a redacted, partial police report.
Click on links to see videos.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-13-2012).]
Nothing new there, your just regurgitating old stuff. EVERYONE already knows he “confronted” Martin. If anybody has been paying attention they know this was not a racial incident.
George Zimmerman's trial has begun after he turned himself into authorities on Wednesday. Zimmerman faces second-degree murder charges, a first degree felony. If the charges stand, Zimmerman faces up to life in prison.
The manner in which this case is handled will set a precedent for dealing with the racial tensions that have culminated in recent weeks. As such, we must be careful to execute and discuss this trial in a way that honors ourselves and all those who will be processed by the American justice system in the future.
This extremely explosive and divisive situation is reminiscent of another court case where Americans showed that the rule of law should be upheld at all costs: the Boston Massacre.
There are many similarities between the Zimmerman court case and the Boston massacre trial. The basic accusation is even the same: Did armed soldiers/neighborhood watchman really have reason to fear for their lives and use deadly force against an unarmed crowd/civilian? Hostilities between the British and Americans were very similar to the prejudices we are seeing today. Plus, they took place just tens days apart on the calendar. (Read the full account here.)
At the conclusion of the Boston Massacre, five unarmed American colonists were killed in Boston at the hands of the armed, occupying British. Captain Preston and his regiment were promptly arrested and put in jail as they awaited trial.
There was a media frenzy surrounding the trial. Sam Adams, the leader of the Sons of Liberty and John Adam's cousin, was furiously writing accounts of the Boston Massacre trying to control the conversation against the British in favor of the American colonists. The public was clammoring for them to be killed before they were even given a fair trial.
John Adams, a local lawyer and our second president, agreed to defend these men because noone else would. It wasn't until after the trial when the facts were examined that a jury made up of the peers of the murdered actually acquitted Captain Preston and his regiment.
The evidence presented in the trial, despite the prejudices and conclusions drawn at the beginning, showed that Captain Preston and his regiment did have reason to fear for their lives even though the mob attacking him was unarmed.
Jail-cell writings of Preston revealed his "thanks ... to the inhabitants of this town -- who throwing aside all party and prejudice, have with the utmost humanity and freedom stept forth advocates for truth, in defense of my injured innocence."
I know we are all for justice, but we should not seek revenge at the expense of justice. Instead, seek justice for its own sake. The American colonists heeded this advice and avoided becoming murderers themselves. As John Adams aptly said, "Borne away by a torrent of passion, we make shipwreck of conscience."
During the Zimmerman court case, we should not be in a hurry to throw out due process to prove a political point. Equality under the law should exist first and foremost in America, even for Zimmerman.
Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit "Irresponsible And Unethical"
“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”
I think the 'special' prosecutor took too big a bite on this one....either that or she knew that it really WAS self-defense, and the over-the-top charge of second degree murder was the intentional way to ensure his acquittal.
I think the 'special' prosecutor took too big a bite on this one....either that or she knew that it really WAS self-defense, and the over-the-top charge of second degree murder was the intentional way to ensure his acquittal.
I heard that interview on the radio. Thank you for posting it.
If Alan Dershowitz's analysis is true, then IMO the prosecutor should be santioned by the Florida bar for unethical behavior.
With regards to this case, it would not surprise me if the charges are thrown out by the judge. I only worry that public opinion will sway the judge's ruling since she is up for re-election. Judges should not be elected for this very reason and I believe the founding fathers were wise when they made federal judges appointed rather than elected. Politics are supposed to play a role in the creation of laws. It does not belong in the courtroom.
Everyone might have known this, but now it is official.
quote
Affidavit alleges George Zimmerman ‘confronted’ Trayvon Martin
A claim does not make it official. You know this man.
I can sue you in court for stealing my car, right now if I had the money. Would that make you a car thief? Think this through, I know you are smarter than this. The spin you keep putting on this is sickening.
Brad
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2012).]
I'm not holding my breath here. 
Think this through, I know you are smarter than this. The spin you keep putting on this is sickening. 
