Just to add that Zimmerman did not 'initiate an altercation'. He was part of neighborhood watch. Asking someone what they are doing in your neighborhood isn't 'initiating an altercation', nor is it an excuse to deck someone, nor is following someone. Zimmerman also lost sight of Martin, and Martin returned to him, and pounced on him. THAT was initiating an altercation.
I agree in part. Asking someone who they are or what they're doing isn't initiating an altercation, especially for a member of neighborhood watch. However, we don't know if Zimmerman actually initiated an altercation or not. What did he say? Did he make threatening gestures or statements that can be construed as "fighting words". (hate language designed to illicit a physical response - it has a legal definition). Did Zimmerman throw a punch, brandish his weapon or anything else?
We have an idea what happened before the altercation began and we know how it ended. What we don't know is how it started and who started it and that is what will decide this case. If Zimmerman only made a verbal challenge (without hate speech, since that would be considered fighting words) and Martin threw the first punch - to my mind Zimmerman is justified and it's self defense. If Zimmerman rattled off a bunch of racial slurs, threw a punch or brandished his gun, then he's at fault and probably guilty of at least manslaughter.
Those critical seconds when words/actions were first exchanged between the two are really all that matters, and so far we have no real evidence of that. All we have is Zimmerman's story and the question then becomes does any other evidence gathered agree with or dispute Zimmerman's story? In the absence of evidence that Zimmerman initiated the altercation, there's nothing to charge him with.
For clarification, "altercation" means some form of fight beyond heated words. Zimmerman may have initiated the "encounter" by asking him who he was, etc., but that's much different than initiating an altercation.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-30-2012).]
That is correct. Police and security personel, which Zimmerman is not either one of, do that. A gun's safety is used to prevent "accidental" discharge. When I used to hunt I always had the safety on my weapons, it doesn't take much time to disengage it when the need arises,especially if one knows how to use their weapon. If you are pulling a gun out of a holster, it would be natural to disengage the safety,
Hopefully the responsible gun owners on here do not leave their loaded weapons with the safety off, while they are at home, and have no need of the weapon, especially if they have children. That is just inviting a tragedy. If one lives alone, that is another story and anything goes.
The gun that Zimmerman was using (supposedly a Kel-Tec PF9) is not equipped with a manual safety. It is a straight double action only. You shoot it the same as you would a revolver. A long fairly substantial trigger pull similar to the Glock. No single action capability that would require a manual safety.
Here is an image of the neighborhood. I have circled the Club House (mentioned in the police report) and the sidewalk (behind the buildings)where the altercation took place in Red. This should help others visualize things a bit better.
quote
The gun that Zimmerman was using (supposedly a Kel-Tec PF9) is not equipped with a manual safety. It is a straight double action only. You shoot it the same as you would a revolver. A long fairly substantial trigger pull similar to the Glock. No single action capability that would require a manual safety.
I made my post before the type of weapon used was revealed. I also agree with someone's previous post that Zimmerman looks very creepy in his "Michael Jackson Thriller" type leather jacket and shaved head.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-30-2012).]
Madcurl, I don't think any attorney will discuss evidence in an ongoing case he is involved in.
Here is what I am hearing so far.
Zimmerman (Z) walked out of his house just before 7pm to go to the store. Z noticed Martin walking behind the Club house (closed) in his gated community. Z Called the Police on their NON EMERGENCY number and reported a suspicious person Martin walked toward Z, either to intimidate him, or he really was stoned no idea why there. Martin realizes Z is on the phone with Police, or something spooks him and he takes off running. Z takes off running after him (Which could be a natural reaction). Z loses Martin almost immediately, and turns to go back to his truck. Martin either steps out from behind where he was hiding, or runs up behind Z and attacks him. Z lands on the ground with Martin on top of him, Z is yelling for help. Z pulls his gun out and there is a struggle for the gun, the gun goes off. (The magazine was found full, as a second bullet was not chambered, this is most likely because Martins hand was around the barrel not allowing it to cycle the next bullet.) Martin is hit in the chest, and dies almost instantly, Z crawls out from under him and checks his pulse. Police arrive. CPR attempted on Martin, Z is treated on scene. Z is taken to the Police station for 5 hours and questioned and released.
Anyone have anything they see missing or care to dispute? Like I said not all of this is fact, as things are found out I reserve the right to change my opinion.
Here is an image of the neighborhood. I have circled the Club House (mentioned in the police report) and the sidewalk (behind the buildings)where the altercation took place in Red. This should help others visualize things a bit better.
I made my post before the type of weapon used was revealed. I also agree with someone's previous post that Zimmerman looks very creepy in his "Michael Jackson Thriller" type leather jacket and shaved head.
Can you zoom out and show the store Martin was coming from and where his Dad lived please?
I don't recall me every saying, "You or all gun owners are racist" did I?
I will ask you these questions. Would you have followed Martin even though the 911 dispatcher instructed you not too? Would you tell the dispatcher you're carrying a concealed weapon and disregard the 911 dispatcher and follow him anyway?
As Dr. Phil once said, "You can't ride two horse with one ass." A person can't claim "Stand your Ground" and then claim innocent because they followed a innocent person that is now dead.
Once again... HE WAS NOT ON THE PHONE WITH 911. He dialed the non emergency number. He also was not "instructed" to "NOT" follow. The dispatcher said... "We do not need you to do that". And Zimmermans reply was "OK"
No I would not have told the dispatcher I was carrying a concealed firearm. I am not required, by law, to do so no I would not. Judging from the call Zimmerman placed, and what was said during that call, there was NO reason to tell the dispatcher that he was armed.
I agree in part. Asking someone who they are or what they're doing isn't initiating an altercation, especially for a member of neighborhood watch. However, we don't know if Zimmerman actually initiated an altercation or not. What did he say? Did he make threatening gestures or statements that can be construed as "fighting words". (hate language designed to illicit a physical response - it has a legal definition). Did Zimmerman throw a punch, brandish his weapon or anything else?
We have an idea what happened before the altercation began and we know how it ended. What we don't know is how it started and who started it and that is what will decide this case. If Zimmerman only made a verbal challenge (without hate speech, since that would be considered fighting words) and Martin threw the first punch - to my mind Zimmerman is justified and it's self defense. If Zimmerman rattled off a bunch of racial slurs, threw a punch or brandished his gun, then he's at fault and probably guilty of at least manslaughter.
Those critical seconds when words/actions were first exchanged between the two are really all that matters, and so far we have no real evidence of that. All we have is Zimmerman's story and the question then becomes does any other evidence gathered agree with or dispute Zimmerman's story? In the absence of evidence that Zimmerman initiated the altercation, there's nothing to charge him with.
For clarification, "altercation" means some form of fight beyond heated words. Zimmerman may have initiated the "encounter" by asking him who he was, etc., but that's much different than initiating an altercation.
I agree in part. Asking someone who they are or what they're doing isn't initiating an altercation, especially for a member of neighborhood watch. However, we don't know if Zimmerman actually initiated an altercation or not. What did he say? Did he make threatening gestures or statements that can be construed as "fighting words". (hate language designed to illicit a physical response - it has a legal definition). Did Zimmerman throw a punch, brandish his weapon or anything else?
According to Martin's girlfriend, Martin initiated the "conversation". This is how things happened according to her:
quote
Lawyer Benjamin Crump, who represents Martin's parents, said the teenager was on the phone with his girlfriend when he told her he was being followed. Martin told the girl he'd taken shelter from the rain briefly at an apartment building before continuing his walk to where he was staying with his father nearby.
"He says, 'Oh, he's right behind me, he's right behind me again'," Crump says the girl told him.
"She says, 'Run', he says, 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast.' She hears Trayvon say, 'Why are you following me?' Other voice says, 'What are you doing around here?"'
She told Crump they both repeated themselves and then she thinks she heard Zimmerman push Martin "because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech." She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off. She didn't hear the gunfire.
No racial slurs were thrown out by Zimmerman before the scuffle. They were challenging each other, then IMO, Martin sucker punched Zimmerman and started it all.
Once again... HE WAS NOT ON THE PHONE WITH 911. He dialed the non emergency number. He also was not "instructed" to "NOT" follow. The dispatcher said... "We do not need you to do that". And Zimmermans reply was "OK"
No I would not have told the dispatcher I was carrying a concealed firearm. I am not required, by law, to do so no I would not. Judging from the call Zimmerman placed, and what was said during that call, there was NO reason to tell the dispatcher that he was armed.
Well, did Zimmerman obey what the 911 dispatcher instructed him to do? Did Martin confront Zimmerman at his car, on the pathway, or what? I'm hearing three different stories from Zimmerman's dad, close friend, and the so-called report. If Zimmerman didn't follow him then the altercation would've taken place at his car, right? Was Martin shot near Zimmerman's car for down the pathway? As Dr. Phil said, "You can't ride two horse with one ass."
As for the seriousness of informing the 911 dispatcher (he) is carrying a canceled weapon-that is relevant in this case because the person that is following now becomes the "aggressor." Add in Zimmerman's language that was recorded on the phone clearly demonstrates he has a unbridled tongue.
The "Stand your Ground" law in FL is a diabolical way to kill somebody if you're going to "follow" somebody that hasn't committed any crimes. You can always fall back on "I was just asking him a question and he sucker punched me so I pulled my gun out and killed him."
Well, did Zimmerman obey what the 911 dispatcher instructed him to do? Did Martin confront Zimmerman at his car, on the pathway, or what? I'm hearing three different stories from Zimmerman's dad, close friend, and the so-called report. If Zimmerman didn't follow him then the altercation would've taken place at his car, right? Was Martin shot near Zimmerman's car for down the pathway? As Dr. Phil said, "You can't ride two horse with one ass."
As for the seriousness of informing the 911 dispatcher (he) is carrying a canceled weapon-that is relevant in this case because the person that is following now becomes the "aggressor." Add in Zimmerman's language that was recorded on the phone clearly demonstrates he has a unbridled tongue.
The "Stand your Ground" law in FL is a diabolical way to kill somebody if you're going to "follow" somebody that hasn't committed any crimes. You can always fall back on "I was just asking him a question and he sucker punched me so I pulled my gun out and killed him."
For the love of god get it right!!!!! HE WAS NOT ON THE PHONE WITH 911!!!!!!!
Quit twisting things to say whay you "hope/want" them to be.
For the love of god get it right!!!!! HE WAS NOT ON THE PHONE WITH 911!!!!!!!
Quit twisting things to say whay you "hope/want" them to be.
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy carrying a weapon, confronting a innocent person. While others "hope/want" it to be the shooters right to claim, "Stand Your Ground" while on the phone with a "non-emergency" dispatcher.
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy carrying a weapon, confronting a innocent person. While others "hope/want" it to be the shooters right to claim, "Stand Your Ground" while on the phone with a "non-emergency" dispatcher.
Oh madcurl, you poor poor lost soul. At least you stopped with your 911 crap, now lets work on all this guessing that you are trying to pass off as fact.
quote
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy carrying a weapon, confronting a innocent person. While others "hope/want" it to be the shooters right to claim, "Stand Your Ground" while on the phone with a "non-emergency" dispatcher.
There, I marked out all the parts of your post where you are saying things that have no real basis as it's just a guess on your part. As that one guy said that one time: "You can't know what I am thinking." (He didn't wink, I added that myself.)
Brad
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 03-30-2012).]
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy carrying a weapon, confronting a innocent person. While others "hope/want" it to be the shooters right to claim, "Stand Your Ground" while on the phone with a "non-emergency" dispatcher.
Dang he finally said NON EMERGENCY OPERATOR! we are getting someplace.
Oh madcurl, you poor poor lost soul. At least you stopped with your 911 crap, now lets work on all this guessing that you are trying to pass off as fact.
Brad
If you're going to be a tough guy during a non-emergency call with a gun be prepared to defend yourself with a high priced lawyer... Priceless.
Dang he finally said NON EMERGENCY OPERATOR! we are getting someplace.
Actually, it sounded better the other way around when you think about it. Zimmerman followed a innocent person during a non-emergency call. The call was so non-important that he (Zimmerman) decided to take his gun with him to ask Martin some questions.
Actually, it sounded better the other way around when you think about it. Zimmerman followed a innocent person during a non-emergency call. The call was so non-important that he (Zimmerman) decided to take his gun with him to ask Martin some questions.
I notice you are more worried about how things sound, than the truth a lot in this thread.
OK, lesson #2. Pay attention man, I'm sure we can teach you more than one thing per day.
When a person has a Conceal and carry permit they typically carry their guns with them at all times. I would guess that 99.9999% of the people that have a license to carry a concealed weapon do not leave the house without it.
So, once again, taking the things you said out that were not true.
quote
Actually, it sounded better the other way around when you think about it. Zimmerman followed a innocent person during a non-emergency call. The call was so non-important that he (Zimmerman) decided to take his gun with him to ask Martin some questions.
From the way he talks he hates guns, is that true Madcurl? Do you think no one but cops should have guns?
Because if you do you need to think again, a lot of us own guns and carry them every day, everywhere. And not because we are gun toting nuts, because we know what is going on out there. Do you? Everyday someone is killed because someone else thought they needed what you have, whatever it maybe. Teens are the most aggressive because they think they are invincible also that they know the way the laws are written they will normally get off with a slap on the wrist.
I notice you are more worried about how things sound, than the truth a lot in this thread.
OK, lesson #2. Pay attention man, I'm sure we can teach you more than one thing per day.
When a person has a Conceal and carry permit they typically carry their guns with them at all times. I would guess that 99.9999% of the people that have a license to carry a concealed weapon do not leave the house without it.
So, once again, taking the things you said out that were not true.
Nice try. I would guess that 100% here wouldn't want to be in Zimmerman's shoe either-permit or otherwise. Why? Because you can't defend stupidity. See it's all sounds good until you have to pay someone to defend you in court because you think you're a tough guy with a permit to carry while following someone during a non-emergency call, hehe.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 03-30-2012).]
From the way he talks he hates guns, is that true Madcurl? Do you think no one but cops should have guns?
Because if you do you need to think again, a lot of us own guns and carry them every day, everywhere. And not because we are gun toting nuts, because we know what is going on out there. Do you? Everyday someone is killed because someone else thought they needed what you have, whatever it maybe. Teens are the most aggressive because they think they are invincible also that they know the way the laws are written they will normally get off with a slap on the wrist.
Steve
You can answer the question yourself. Would you have did the same things Zimmerman did that night?
Originally posted by Doug85GT: No racial slurs were thrown out by Zimmerman before the scuffle. They were challenging each other, then IMO, Martin sucker punched Zimmerman and started it all.
Curious as to why this is your OPINION?
What would warrant you to punch someone in the face? I can think of a few good reasons; IMO, but I would like your HONEST answer.
This kinda reminds me of a Rep vs Dem thread but Zimmerman was a Dem and yet your defending him...Imagine that... A C&C packing Dem !
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy carrying a weapon, confronting a innocent person. While others "hope/want" it to be the shooters right to claim, "Stand Your Ground" while on the phone with a "non-emergency" dispatcher.
I fought for a couple days as to whether or not to post "any" comment whatsover in this thread for fear of being labeled a "racist" even though I am not taking 1 side or the other "YET".
I carry a firearm everyday. I carry one for work (Armored truck) and I carry concealed when not at work. Does that make me a wannabe tough guy? I have my Florida CCW, Florida class D (Security Officer) and Florida class G (Statewide Firearms License). I have taken and paseed the state of OHIO Peace Officers Training Course. I am certified in CPR and AED.
When you apply for the Florida CCW permit, you are subjected to a thourough criminal background check. This tells me that Zimmerman has a clean background or he would not have a Florida CCW permit.
I am looking at this case closely and at just the facts.
Ok Thanks, I was trying to be sarcastic....FAIL so in a NON-Emergency situtation like a minor car wreck I though you could just Diall 911 and say it is a NON emergency.... My bad as that is what I did. I better get some NON emergency numbers programmed.
Originally posted by madcurl: Nice try. I would guess that 100% here wouldn't want to be in Zimmerman's shoe either-permit or otherwise. Why? Because you can't defend stupidity. See it's all sounds good until you have to pay someone to defend you in court because you think you're a tough guy with a permit to carry while following someone during a non-emergency call, hehe.
You mean that paying to defend yourself from stupid people is expensive? I agree.
I can tell that nothing is going to matter on what is said to you it's all "tough guy", "racist", "gun toting" .
Seriously, you are being terribly ignorant here. But continue throwing out the same tired arguments again and again. I'd love to have a conversation with you on this subject, that's not what you seem interested in having though.
Ok Thanks, I was trying to be sarcastic....FAIL so in a NON-Emergency situtation like a minor car wreck I though you could just Diall 911 and say it is a NON emergency.... My bad as that is what I did. I better get some NON emergency numbers programmed.
If there are no injuries some areas have specific numbers to call just for car wrecks. Of course you would dial 911 if someone is hurt.
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy carrying a weapon, confronting a innocent person. While others "hope/want" it to be the shooters right to claim, "Stand Your Ground" while on the phone with a "non-emergency" dispatcher.
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy and he assaulted a person carrying a weapon.
So can we ONLY use FACTS when discussing this or is that too much to ask on a Forum.... LOL
I think it's OK, if like you said earlier on for a person to say "I think" or "my opinion is" on things that are not facts. There is an effort from at least one person to just muddy the waters here, and cause general confusion to get this off topic by just throwing out things.
Here in CA where I live the call is 911 and you're talking to a real dispatcher and is being recorded. If the call isn't an emergency it's placed on low priority. In LA they have a non-emergency number, but the caller is directed to that particular number if the 911 operator thinks the call isn't an emergency.
I know you have it all figured out but who other than Zimmerman REALLY knows what he did and what he was thinking?
quote
Originally posted by Bullet:
And for the love of God and person is dead because of a person wanting to be a tough guy and he assaulted a person carrying a weapon.
To be Fair you DON'T know what really happened or who ASSULTED who, Only mr. Z knows that. We know there was an altercation and everything esle concering the fight is speculation.
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