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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1660 (131260 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 01-16-2021 09:06 AM
fieroguru
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Report this Post12-30-2020 08:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
Put me down for one of the water manifolds.


 
quote
Originally posted by Bob2112:
I'd love to buy one as soon as you have them ready!


Once I get the first two prototypes here and fully assembled, I will take some pictures and start another thread for people to voice their interest. I won't need to take any payment until the first back is in my posession, then I will let everyone know they are available.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
How are you going to seal the tubes to the blocks? O-rings?


Yes, the blocks have internal o-ring grooves that the tubes will slide through when they are assembled.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-30-2020).]

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Report this Post12-30-2020 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
While the car is down for the drivetrain upgrades, I have also been pondering some interior upgrades, primarily electronic tech...

SInce the car is used a lot on Power Tours and road trips, I am always using my phone for GPS. I had a very close call on the 2016 HRPT where my charger cable on my cell phone went bad, the battery on the phone was running down, and I had to swap batteries with the a friend I was traveling with so I could get to my hotel (and buy another charger cable). After that I started carrying spare batteries. The other issue is that location with the cell phone plugged in would get hot and sometimes overheat and start turning off functions.

What would be really handy would be to have a 2 DIN head unit with GPS, backup camera, MP3, WiFi, hands free calling, etc. Beside the stock stereo location not being setup for 2 Din w/o some hackery, the stock location sucks for GPS use. So I have been looking at other creative means for the multimedia upgrade...

While searching for options, I came across some shallow 2 Din head units with a lot of the features I was looking for. They delete the CD/DVD capability and once that is done, they can be as shallow as 2" deep. With this minimal depth, in theory they could be mounted where the aux gauges are. This would put the screen in a much better location for GPS, but it will require making a bracket to mount the head unit, fabricating an enclosure of some kind, and running several wires down past the HVAC ductwork.





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Report this Post12-30-2020 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's slick!

Do you mind sharing the dimensions and brand/model? I have the double DIN with Amida's interior. I wanted to put in an Android powered head unit (like a Pumpkin or something similar), and get a 4G dongle and data-only plan on a different carrier than my cell phone. Worst case, if the head unit looses wifi, I can hotspot off my phone. I've seen the "Android Auto" thing, but I've opted to leave the new "Google Assistant" turned off, which apparently impacts that, hence trying to stick with an Android based unit (real time map updates and such).

And thanks for the heads up on the water manifold! I'll try to scan the mall now and then!
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Report this Post12-31-2020 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Please do let us know when you make that posting. I don't get on the main page often, but this comes up in my email since I'm subscribed.
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Report this Post12-31-2020 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a link to the radio. Amazon has a lot of different ones. I wanted one with a dedicated subwoofer output and didn't want a complete touch screen
https://www.amazon.com/gp/p...=AZV2Q3JGU683F&psc=1

When I get the first two water manifolds, I will post the pictures in this thread first.
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Report this Post12-31-2020 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
any thought on having the water manifold cast and then machined? might be less expensive than billet, and allow for one piece design.

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Report this Post01-01-2021 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
any thought on having the water manifold cast and then machined? might be less expensive than billet, and allow for one piece design.


Not really, I don't have the needed time to devote to that process.
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Report this Post01-12-2021 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Picked these up today... should last a while:


The prototypes for the water manifold are scheduled for production on 2/24/21 with the first run of 15 scheduled for the week of 3/15/21.

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Report this Post01-13-2021 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
so how does the water manifold work?

Rob
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Report this Post01-14-2021 07:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All coolant flow is from an electric water pump.

Cool coolant enters the manifold at the bottom left hose connection where it is split and flows to both sides of the engine block through the lower section (and tube) of the water manifold. Once the coolant is in the engine, it goes through the block and up through the heads. Hot coolant reenters the manifold in the top section and moves to the right side where flow (and engine temp) is controlled by the thermostat. As the coolant flows through the thermostat, it will enter the coolant fill neck and upper hose that will send the coolant back to the radiator. There is also a heater core supply nipple on the right block that will send hot coolant to the heater core and back to the coolant tube from the radiator that sends cool water back to the engine.

If the water pump is installed after the lower passenger side coolant tube and before the engine, it will mimic the stock coolant flow path of the 87 and 88 Fiero, just with an electric water pump supplying the coolant circulation. You can also install the water pump up front, but the heater core cool return will need to be plumbed in front of the water pump for the coolant to circulate as a bypass.

This does change the location of the thermostat for the LS engines. Stock LSx the thermostat is on the water inlet side, so it controls water entering the engine. This setup controls water exiting the engine and was the industry standard method of engine temp control for 50+ years... so it works well (when I modified my stock LS4 water pump assembly, I moved the thermostat to the exit side of the coolant flow, so my swap has always ran the thermostat in this location).

It satisfies all the coolant plumbing requirements for the LSx engine in a very compact, lightweight, and clutter free manner. It will only have 2 visible hoses in the engine bay (1 if you hide the heater core supply hose under the return hose to the radiator).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-16-2021).]

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Report this Post01-14-2021 08:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

It mimics the stock coolant flow path of the 87 and 88 Fiero, just with an electric water pump supplying the coolant circulation.
This does change the location of the thermostat for the LS engines. Stock LSx the thermostat is on the water inlet side, so it controls water entering the engine. This setup controls water exiting the engine and was the industry standard method of engine temp control for 50+ years... so it works well (when I modified my stock LS4 water pump assembly, I moved the thermostat to the exit side of the coolant flow, so my swap has always ran the thermostat in this location).


Are you using the LS thermostat in a recirculating capacity?
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Report this Post01-14-2021 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Are you using the LS thermostat in a recirculating capacity?


Nope.

Old school thermostat (4.3 CPI application) with the coolant bypass through the heater core.
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Report this Post01-14-2021 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
in case i missed it could you explain the electric waterpump set up
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Report this Post01-14-2021 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Nope.

Old school thermostat (4.3 CPI application) with the coolant bypass through the heater core.

I would have thought with the position of your thermostat and the layout of the block, you'd be able to recirculate like the stock system.

Recirculation warms the engine up more evenly, and recirculating thermostats tend to flow more water than older style on/off thermostats, which is beneficial for making the best use of a Fiero's relatively small radiator.

However, you'd need two heater connections on your water log, as T-ing the heater return into the radiator return wouldn't work (BTDT with the Northstar)

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-14-2021).]

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Report this Post01-14-2021 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fireboss:
in case i missed it could you explain the electric waterpump set up


Any electric water pump that flows 40+ gpm will work, but since the manifold only has a single inlet, water pumps with a single outlet keeps things simple.

I am planning to install this one up front between the radiator outlet and the under chassis coolant tube on the passenger side. They also have a programmable controller for it if you want to go that route.

https://daviescraig.com/pro...er-pump-kit-12v-8060
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Report this Post01-14-2021 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fieroguru

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quote
Originally posted by Will:
I would have thought with the position of your thermostat and the layout of the block, you'd be able to recirculate like the stock system.

Recirculation warms the engine up more evenly, and recirculating thermostats tend to flow more water than older style on/off thermostats, which is beneficial for making the best use of a Fiero's relatively small radiator.

However, you'd need two heater connections on your water log, as T-ing the heater return into the radiator return wouldn't work (BTDT with the Northstar)


While it might be possible... K.I.S.S.
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Report this Post01-15-2021 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I prefer to try and use OEM parts, especially when it comes to things like electric water pumps, they are tested WAY harder by the OEM's and general populace that abuses the crap out of their cars, supposedly the BMW pump in this video is an inexpensive OE option.

https://youtu.be/atLzbKPMnnU

That being said, you'll need a spare PWM output to control it, idealy something linked to a table based on engine speed and temperature probably, with triggers based on throttle movement. you may also be able to get a standalone controller, I didn't watch the whole video, I'm probably going to keep a mechanical pump.

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Report this Post01-15-2021 06:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice writeup on water pump control.

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Report this Post01-15-2021 09:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Any electric water pump that flows 40+ gpm will work, but since the manifold only has a single inlet, water pumps with a single outlet keeps things simple.

I am planning to install this one up front between the radiator outlet and the under chassis coolant tube on the passenger side. They also have a programmable controller for it if you want to go that route.

https://daviescraig.com/pro...er-pump-kit-12v-8060
]https://daviescraig.com/med...70x330_s.jpg


Are you just going to plumb the heater in directly at the pump instead of going back to the engine?

I'd also be concerned about the flow area in that, whatever a AN-16 (12) is, it's smaller than the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" inlets on OE pumps, as well as the 1 1/4 coolant tube. I say "whatever that is" because it would have to have the 37 degree seat integral in the housing to be an AN fitting. Pipe thread is far more sensible in this application, but the connection should be larger than -16.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-15-2021).]

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Report this Post01-15-2021 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Are you just going to plumb the heater in directly at the pump instead of going back to the engine?

I'd also be concerned about the flow area in that, whatever a AN-16 (12) is, it's smaller than the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" inlets on OE pumps, as well as the 1 1/4 coolant tube. I say "whatever that is" because it would have to have the 37 degree seat integral in the housing to be an AN fitting. Pipe thread is far more sensible in this application, but the connection should be larger than -16.



O-ring base fittings (ORB), are sized in the same manner, and have the same thread diameter and pitch. in fact, in a pinch once, when I needed a -6 ORB to -6 AN flare, and didn't have one, I put an o-ring on one end of a -6 union and installed it. was it right? no, did it work without damaging anything? yes.

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Report this Post01-16-2021 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I prefer to try and use OEM parts, especially when it comes to things like electric water pumps, they are tested WAY harder by the OEM's and general populace that abuses the crap out of their cars, supposedly the BMW pump in this video is an inexpensive OE option.


I hear you on OEM R&D and reliability and I also have a strong preference for mechanical water pumps (which I will eventually pair with this coolant manifold).

That pump is definitely worth looking into to a little further. The E40 ecm has a PWM option for fan control that I could likely repurpose.


 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Are you just going to plumb the heater in directly at the pump instead of going back to the engine?

I'd also be concerned about the flow area in that, whatever a AN-16 (12) is, it's smaller than the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" inlets on OE pumps, as well as the 1 1/4 coolant tube. I say "whatever that is" because it would have to have the 37 degree seat integral in the housing to be an AN fitting. Pipe thread is far more sensible in this application, but the connection should be larger than -16.


I updated the water pump flow description above as the plumbing is slightly different depending on where you mount the water pump (by radiator or by engine). The hot supply to the heater core will always come from the water manifold on the engine right below the thermostat (under the fill neck). The cool return from the heater core needs to merge back into the coolant flow ahead of the water pump so the pump will circulate it.

The Davies Craig pump can accept hoses over the housing w/o needing to use any threaded nipples or AN fittings.
Also, the LS engines have an internal restriction on the outlet ports. While the large round hole in the block is about 1.06" in diameter, it is blind and uses a 3/4" or smaller hole on the side for coolant flow exiting the heat.

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