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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1624 (128753 views)
Last post by: Rickady88GT on 10-29-2020 10:32 AM
Will
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Report this Post04-15-2020 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


My plan has always been to run a 1 way clutch in the drive shaft to the front diff. With the smaller front tires, the front will always over run (rotate faster than) the rear. When there is zero slip at the rears, the front just spin as normal w/o any power applied (they are effectively being pushed faster than the engagement RPM of the power). When the rears do slip (on hot dry pavement), and try to rotate faster than the fronts, the 1 way clutch will engage and send power to the front wheels. The fronts will then try to put an end to the wheel spin while helping to pull the car in the right general direction. One the rear slip subsides, then the fronts go back to their free wheeling... that at least is the thought/theory... Simple 100% mechanical AWD on demand w/o the typical binding in parking lot maneuvers.


Sounds like that's going to have pretty harsh engagement. Are you expecting that actual spin or only slip at the rear will engage the front? Engaging on slip will be gentler/smoother, but you'll have to have the speeds closely enough matched that differential tire wear front to rear over the life of the tires may cause an issue.
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Report this Post04-16-2020 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With my current wheel/tire sizes it would only take about an inch or two of slip to match rotation front rear and start transitioning power, so the rears can't really get away to much before the fronts will come into play. With early engagement, some good rubber mounting of the front diff and possible rubber isolation within the driveshaft, transition of power shouldn't be too harsh.
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Report this Post05-09-2020 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Last few weeks have been super busy... but I finally have a free weekend to focus on the LS4/F40...

With the HRPT being delayed until late August, I am back focused on installing the turbo. Put the mockup engine/transmission/cradle on the fixture. Used the drivetrain support brackets to properly locate the engine/transmission to the cradle, fabbed up some temporary solid mounts so I could test fit the turbo manifold/turbo to my chassis and verify clearance to the trunk.

Here is are the engine side solid mounts (just for locating):


Here are the transmission side solid mounts (just for locating):


Turbo:


Engine in car. Turbo clears the stock trunk and is quite hidden!








I think it is time to commit to this turbo placement and fully weld on the flange.


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Report this Post05-09-2020 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Will you build up the inside and outside of the trunk with a lot of heat insulation/shielding? I thought turbos get pretty hot, I could imagine the carpet in the trunk melting/catching fire.
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Report this Post05-10-2020 01:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Will you build up the inside and outside of the trunk with a lot of heat insulation/shielding? I thought turbos get pretty hot, I could imagine the carpet in the trunk melting/catching fire.


I was thinking the same thing.

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cognita semper

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post05-10-2020 09:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Metal heat shields with an air gap work wonders.

There will be a stainless heat shield around the exhaust scroll and a heat shield riveted to the truck wall with an air gap as well. This will provide 2 shields and 3 air gaps of separation from the turbo scroll and the truck wall.

The top of the truck manifold will have the OEM heat shield installed as well.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-10-2020).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-10-2020 11:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've heard turbo blankets actually work better than discrete heat shields.
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Report this Post05-10-2020 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
with this new setup, are your running lower on the cradle? did you always need to cut into the cradle for the A/C? Seems like your setup is lower than the previous one. Older pics don't show the cradle cut up at the A/C location.

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Report this Post05-10-2020 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I've heard turbo blankets actually work better than discrete heat shields.


That is an option as well.
I was planning to get a 3 1/2" donut and cut/trim/modify a close fitting heat shield around the scroll.

 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:
with this new setup, are your running lower on the cradle? did you always need to cut into the cradle for the A/C? Seems like your setup is lower than the previous one. Older pics don't show the cradle cut up at the A/C location.


The engine is at the same elevation if not a smidge higher. The issue is the alternator... it is a monumental pain to mount. My goal is for as many parts to be aluminum vs. welded steel brackets. The old setup had the alternator bracket wrap around the top and bottom of the A/C compressor, which allowed the A/C compressor to be higher. With the aluminum mount solution, the A/C compressor has to be lower to make room for the lower alternator bracket.

Don't fret about the trimmed cradle... it isn't staying. This car will be getting a tubular rear cradle. Partially to save weight that is being added with the turbo, partially to make the rear sway bar fit (needs to be mounted lower) as the turbo is in the way for the stock location. I should pick up the material for the cradle later this week.

The plant is down the week of Memorial day, so hopefully I can make some good progress that week (and in the weeks leading up to it).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-10-2020).]

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Report this Post05-10-2020 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
T4 flange is now welded to the manifold. I need to cut the hole for the wastegate and then I can weld up the top transition seam. Right now there is a slight recessed area that I will fill with weld and smooth with the carbide burr cutter and some 40 grit sanding wheels.




Since the engine placement is now defined by the drivetrain support brackets on my fixture, while the engine was still in the car, I went ahead and made some 16 ga templates to define the front and rear firewall areas.






The rear one is more important as I want to run a heat shield/divider panel from the head down to the turbo to provide a thermal barrier between the exhaust scroll and the compressor housing. It won't be tight to the firewall/trunk, but will be within about 1/2". This panel will also keep the extreme heat isolated to that section of the engine bay that will have minimal wiring and other things sensitive to heat.

Next step is to pull everything back out and put it back on the fixture. so that I can lock down the final location of the waste-gate, cut the needed hole and get it all welded up.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-10-2020).]

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Report this Post05-12-2020 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It will take a few weeks to arrive, but I purchased one of these, bundled with all the options and the razor cut 45.
https://www.langmuirsystems.com/crossfire


I have wanted a CNC plasma table for a long time, but space has always been an issue. I like the footprint and cantilevered setup with this one, so I don't have to cut down the sheet to make it fit on the table. It has been 20+ years since I worked as a CNC programmer for several punch and burn machines... shouldn't take much to learn the included software package.

This will really open up my options for making parts!
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Report this Post05-12-2020 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been eyeing the same table up as well, but I don't think I will be getting one anytime soon. I look forward to seeing your results with it!

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post05-12-2020 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is so cool! I thought it would be WAY more money than that! Hell, decent sized lathes are more than that!

Think of all the awesome stuff you could fabricate on that! Heck, you could have a whole side business just zapping out stuff for people and shipping it to them. "You send me your cad file, I ship your reality!" (tm). lol
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Report this Post05-14-2020 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I have wanted a CNC plasma table for a long time, but space has always been an issue. I like the footprint and cantilevered setup with this one, so I don't have to cut down the sheet to make it fit on the table. It has been 20+ years since I worked as a CNC programmer for several punch and burn machines... shouldn't take much to learn the included software package.

This will really open up my options for making parts!


I've whipped up a LOT of stuff with laser cut sheet and light plate... GREAT methods for making things!
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Report this Post05-14-2020 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SteelSend a Private Message to SteelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The plasma CNC is pretty neat. It's $3050.70 shipped with all the accessories. I have no idea if the plasma cutter they can supply, or the torch head, is any good.
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Report this Post05-16-2020 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
That is so cool! I thought it would be WAY more money than that! Hell, decent sized lathes are more than that!

Think of all the awesome stuff you could fabricate on that! Heck, you could have a whole side business just zapping out stuff for people and shipping it to them. "You send me your cad file, I ship your reality!" (tm). lol


This is my most expensive tool purchase but it will likely create more opportunities for parts. My oldest is an aspiring artist, so he might learn how to use it as well to bring his art alive in metal.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I've whipped up a LOT of stuff with laser cut sheet and light plate... GREAT methods for making things!


I currently have metal shapes cut for the 13" brake kits, Lateral Link Relocation Brackets, LS4 starter bracket, F40 shifter bracket. This table will make it even easier to expand my product line.
It will also be easier on my elbows... back when I was doing a lot more swap work and fabrication, my right elbow really took a beating from the 4 1/2" hand held grinder with a cutoff wheel. It took about 18 months to stop hurting, so letting this plasma table do as much cutting as possible well avoid aggravating my elbow. I still do a lot of grinding with a flapper disk, but that seems to be easier on my elbow.

 
quote
Originally posted by Steel:
The plasma CNC is pretty neat. It's $3050.70 shipped with all the accessories. I have no idea if the plasma cutter they can supply, or the torch head, is any good.


Yes with all the options and the 45A plasma the total is about $3K. I decided to use their supplied plasma (Razor Cut 45) to help speed up the setup, training, and programming. It can always upgrade the plasma cutter at a later date if I don't like it.

Timing is pretty good as I am getting close to needing to replenish my inventory of cut parts for several parts, which normally is about $2K. So with this machine, I can bring the cutting of those parts back in house and offset the cost of the purchase.

Today I was busy with fixing the lawn mower, mowing the grass, and processing a few orders. I am planning to pull the mockup LS4/F40 drivetrain back out of the car and continue work on the turbo manifold on Sunday (locking down the placement of the wastegate and getting it welded to the manifold).
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Report this Post05-17-2020 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Didn't get as much done as I had wanted... decided to leave the mock up engine in the chassis for a while, so I put the original one up on the cradle fixture to work on the wastegate placement.


As I was exploring options, I determined the oil drain tube needs resolved first as it and the waste gate want to occupy the same space. I used some 3/4" tube to show the available drop as well as the needed path to the back corner of the oil pan and under the intermediate shaft.


I went ahead and ordered some 3/4" stainless tube and fittings for the oil line. My plan is to make a couple of gradual bends to route the drain around the wastegate as it goes to the oil pan. This will allow me to place the wastegate as close to the end of the manifold as originally planned. This is the general route, but all the bends will be very gradual.



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Report this Post05-24-2020 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My day job has the plant closed for 1 week due to low volume (so I took 4 days vacation), all current Fieroguru Performance orders are complete and shipped, the mower is fixed and the lawn mowed... so now the LS4/F40 Turbo will get some much needed focus for the next week. Turbo manifold, hot side piping, cradle & mounts are the primary goals.

I messed with the oil return from the turbo today. I decided to make an aluminum block to accept the 3/4" tube fitting (3/4" OD, 0.040" wall) so it could be as high as possible. This will give me a little larger than 5/8" ID with a smooth wall @ 12o slope to the oil pan, which should work fine. The oil inlet has a built in orifice (about 0.040"), so the drain is much, much larger.

I will be removing about 3/8" to 1/2" length from the block to pull the fitting back closer to the turbo. Once I have everything figured out, I will likely make a prettier one, but that will be a little later. I want to get to the stage where I can bend up the line and route it to the oil pan so I can finalize the wastegate placement and weld the fitting on the manifold.



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Report this Post05-24-2020 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Where's the "transfer case" going to go?
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Report this Post05-25-2020 08:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The AWD conversion is a couple years off, so I am taking the path of least resistance to get the car running with the turbo this summer.

When I design and machine the awd case, I will move the wastegate and try to route the oil drain through the new AWD case. Worst case I switch to a scavenge pump.

I want to be driving and enjoying the Fiero with 500+ whp while I work on those issues. The car has already been out of service for far too long...
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Report this Post05-25-2020 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looks like I now have room for the oil drain and wastegate to coexist.





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Report this Post05-26-2020 02:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what are your plans for the downpipe? I take it your WG will dump into the downpipe? Looks like you have lots of room for an A2W intercooler above the transmission with the turbo down there.

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The car has already been out of service for far too long...



tell me about it... my car has been driven about 20 miles in the past 9 years... most of that is my fault though... lol.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post05-26-2020 10:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
what are your plans for the downpipe? I take it your WG will dump into the downpipe? Looks like you have lots of room for an A2W intercooler above the transmission with the turbo down there.


I am wanting to run a 3.5" off the turbo into a magnaflow race muffler. They come in 6 and 14" bodies, but I might need to chop down the 14" one. From there it will do a 180 and either reduce down to a 3" and enter the current magnaflow crossflow muffler, or stay 3.5 and Y into a single 2.5" magnaflow muffler on the DS and a 3" or 2.5" exhaust cutout on the PS. The wastegate will dump back into the downpipe, but probably after the 3.5" muffler. Here is a rough mockup of the 2nd option... I need to finish the cradle to know for sure where the rear uprights will interfere as well as making sure the exhaust decisions don't take up the space for the sway bar.


There room for an A2W on top of the transmission and would help transition the outlet to a better location to enter the throttle body, but for the intial install, I am just going to run hot air and E85. Not looking for much over 6-8 psi to start. Not really wanting to add the weight and complexity of the A2W setup at this time. This one "should" fit between the strut tower and engine.


Progress was slow today... broke the 1 3/4" die on my tubing bender (it didn't like DOM 1 3/4 .120 wall) and got called into work for about 4 hrs (so much for being on vacation).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-27-2020).]

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Report this Post05-27-2020 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since the broken die on my tubing bender will delay progress on the cradle, which delays the mounts, which delays the hotside... I started working on other things that needed (or I wanted) to be done.

Installed the intake so I could carefully transfer my port patterns to the dorman intake for porting. With these in place, I let the die grinder with carbide burr wheel make plastic chips! The intake ports were narrower, not consistently spaced, and inside the ports there were portions of plastic protruding. All of which were addressed port by port.




I left the port width about 1/64 narrower on the intake vs. the heads. Most of the ports are similar to these. Still need to smooth these out some with some sand paper, but the general shape is about right.



Also spend some time smoothing the outside of the intake as well:


While I had the die grinder whirring away, I switched to the turbo side. The gasket fit to the manifold was just about perfect. No changes or porting needed.


The turbo needed some work. The bolt holes on the turbo side were a little sloppy, so I shifted the bolts and gasket to replicate the turbo hanging off the manifold. This left about 1/16" to be removed from the top. Since my manifold is non-divided and the turbo is divided, I narrowed the divider wall about 75% and rounded the leading edge some.


With a little trimming, the stock truck heat shield fits pretty well.


One of the goals for this stage of the project is to save where where I can to offset the weight added by the turbo.
Removing the DOD valley cover with all the solenoids will help shed about 5.3 lbs.



It is noteworthy, but not surprising that using the billet valley cover is 1 lb heavier than the LS3 valley cover.


Also, just the aluminum fuel rails w/o the crossover line or attachment brackets weights would add close to 1.5 lb. Add in the fittings and crossover tube and it could be up to 2+ lbs heavier. I think I will stick with the stock fuel rail.



However using the stock fuel rail will require some additional work. I learned something today... LS2, LS3 & LS4 all share the same bolt pattern for the fuel rails. LS1 and LS6 do not. The Dorman LS2 intake uses the LS1 and LS6 fuel rail mounting, so all 4 of the fuel rail mounting bosses are in the wrong spot. I think I will just cut them off entirely and use some aluminum bars off the intake mounting bosses to attach the stock LS4 fuel rail.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-28-2020).]

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Report this Post05-28-2020 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Started today doing a little more with the intake. I removed the unused bolt hole flanges on the rear of the intake and tapered the supports from the runners to the bolt bosses:



Then I went back to work on the heat shield for the turbo. I started with a 2.5" stainless donut (7.5" OD), cut it in half, trimmed the center back, put it in the press to flatten the center, lots of test fit, trim, test fit, trim, etc. Once I got one side looking good, moved to the other and repeated the process, but it was quicker since there were not any bolt holes and I had the other side to position the OD. Then weld in a spacer plate since the two halves were 1 1/8" to 1 5/8" apart. Some welding, hammering, grinding, etc... Several hours later we have this:




I still need to finish this last section...


In the morning I will extend the top of the heat shield to the manifold flange (leaving a cutout for the mounting bolts), finish the missing bottom half and slot the holes so I can slide then off by loosening the nuts.

Overall there is 3/16 to 1/4" air gap between the turbo and the heat shields. This should help keep most of the heat off the trunk as well as the wastegate.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-28-2020).]

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Report this Post05-28-2020 10:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looking slick. It's got to be so cool to have all the equipment to do stuff like this.

So, if I understand what I'm seeing, your shield is going to hold itself on by "clamping" against the cool-side of the turbo, and the bolts that are providing the resistance are pushing it away (providing the clamping force as well) from the hot side? Or are those bolts just there for mock up?
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Report this Post05-29-2020 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

So, if I understand what I'm seeing, your shield is going to hold itself on by "clamping" against the cool-side of the turbo, and the bolts that are providing the resistance are pushing it away (providing the clamping force as well) from the hot side? Or are those bolts just there for mock up?


Actually, the only piece shown is the exhaust housing. The 4 bolts/studs were originally used with some spreader bars to hold the exhaust housing to the turbo center section. The heat shields use these same 4 bolts/studs to hold them in place without the head shields making contact with the exhaust housing (think of them like fenders over a tire).

Here is a picture showing the exhaust housing, spreader bar, and the studs/nuts that would normally hold the exhaust housing on the center section.


Here is a better picture of the lower heat shield being mounted.


Here is the finished shield. All that work and no one should ever see it when it is installed.



Tomorrow I will clean everything up, reassemble the turbo and test fit it and the manifold on the mock-up engine in the chassis (the compressor side is larger, so it will fit just fine, but the pics will be cool!).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-29-2020).]

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Report this Post05-30-2020 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ah yeah. That was a derp moment on my side. I was so busy staring at the shield and the bolts, that I didn't even realize it wasn't all together. Thank you for the clarification!
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Report this Post05-30-2020 07:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Turbo is back together with the heat shields. Cut the stainless steel studs to the proper length and used stainless nuts for all attachments. Also installed the stainless elbow for the oil feed (planning to run hard stainless lines for all oil and vacuum & boost signal lines.




Installed one of the coil brackets to see how close everything will be. Originally I was thinking about routing the cold pipe up and over the bellhousing and under the coil packs, but that isn't looking to likely. I might turn it and go around the engine bay and under the shifter. Nothing in that area...




While I was playing with the coil brackets, I did get a little distracted and made them lighter. Originally, they were 2 lbs 1.5 oz. After I trimmed them down and replaced the sleeves, threaded rod, and nuts with aluminum versions, I got them down to 14.7 oz (reduction of 1 lb 2.8 oz).




The dorman intake, the truck 4 corner vent tube, and the LS3 valley cover are not playing nice with each other... The intake hits the truck vent tubes in a couple of spots and is too thick to fit between the intake and the LS3 valley cover. I have the ICT valley cover that is thinner I could try, but the tubes are still in the way of the intake.

I might be able to push this tube down enough to clear.


This tube hits the bottom triangle for the intake to head flange area. I have already tried to pry it more towards the center, but could likely go a little more.



The 84 lb/hr decapped flex fuel truck injectors, dorman intake, and the LS4 fuel rail went together for a test fit. Primarily wanted to see if the fuel rail crossover tube would clear the intake w/o injector spacers (which is does). It also allowed me to take some measurements for the brackets that will be needed to mount the fuel rail to the intake.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-30-2020).]

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Report this Post05-31-2020 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After quite a bit of massaging to the truck vent tube, a little trimming in non-critical spots on the dorman intake, and switching to the low profile valley cover, I was able to get everything to coexist.



Also finish welded the v-band for the wastegate to the manifold.


Then moved everything to the mock up engine in the chassis. While It was in there, I decided to play with some plumbing fittings and think about the routing on the cold side. Since I will be running E85 and low boost, I don't really need an intercooler at this point (yes, it would be beneficial, but I am taking the simple route first). Here is a pretty simple path the cold side could take and clear everything.

The more I looked at that, the more I liked rotating the compressor outlet and having the cold side exit along the trunk wall and wrap around the engine bay. This would keep it more "out of sight" especially if I paint it black. Here is the tube going up the trunk wall (I will need to rework my decklid support for this routing).


Vacation from work and the LLC is over after today, so progress will likely slow to the normal crawl pace it has been...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-31-2020).]

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Report this Post06-03-2020 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Turbo is back together with the heat shields. Cut the stainless steel studs to the proper length and used stainless nuts for all attachments. Also installed the stainless elbow for the oil feed (planning to run hard stainless lines for all oil and vacuum & boost signal lines.



FYI, Stainless bolts or studs with BRASS nuts and anti-seize works even better than stainless nuts, as the possibility of galling when removing a nut after many many heat cycles is significantly reduced.

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Report this Post06-06-2020 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The CNC Plasma table is in transit! The expansion kit, laptop stand and plasma cutter are already here, but haven't pulled them out of the boxes yet.

My new (heavier) tubing bender arrived this week, so I spent some time up-sizing several of the bolts and will also upgrade the pins. Mounting it is a little bit of a pain as I didn't buy the stand (because I don't have room to put it out in the open floor) and I don't like the idea of using my vice (and it would lack space for the tube). My metal work table is quite sturdy and normally have 500+ lbs of engine/transmission/cradle fixture on it, so I decided to mount the bender to one of the legs. I wanted to pull down vs. pull up and wanted to keep it as much out of the way as I could. This is what I came up with for now:



I also went ahead and reworked the front cradle attachment points on my cradle fixture. This is what they looked like when I used some scrap metal back in 2009. While they have been used many, many times since w/o issue, I didn't like looking at them, and didn't want them to be distractions for my tubular cradle build.
Old brackets:


New brackets. This style more closely matches the drivetrain support brackets. I might also rework the rear cradle mount bracket - mainly because it won't clear the turbo. I would like to rework it with the geometry of the rear trunk wall included.



Sunday I plan to test out the bender!
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Report this Post06-07-2020 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It was a long day and progress doesn't seem like much...

The rear cradle attachments were a fair amount of work. Had to make the top circular plate (cut squares, trim them into octagons, turn them round on the lathe). Once they were done, I cut some of the tube and put a bevel cut on it and made the two sides match with the belt sander. Then I modified a washer so the upper circulate plate would self-center to the tube and put 4 tacks to hold everything together during the mockup/fitment stage.

Once these were done for both sides, then I started on the first main tube. This is my second tubular cradle, so the fixture already had the angle plates to position the main tubes. It was mainly about bending the 90 (not quite 90), then fitting the end to the rear cradle bolt attachment. I think I had the tube in for test fit, removed for some grinder work, then install for the next test fit... about 10 times.



Once the rear connection point was fitted, I bend the front one. The location and angle of the bend is critical to have both the trailing link and front cradle mount sleeve in the center of the tube.



Here is an overall look at the first tube.


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Report this Post06-07-2020 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's going to be a trick setup, building a new cradle. I read a thread of someone who did this to a Boxster:
 
quote
He’s installing the engine and transmission with a custom engine cradle aided by a 3D scan of the engine and bay using an iPad with a Structure Sensor.

https://engineswapdepot.com/?p=25774
That poor guy spent a couple years building a Boxster with an amped Audi 2.7tt. When he got it done, it burned due to the oil feed to the turbo leaking. He kept going though.
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Report this Post06-08-2020 02:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I saw in one of your pictures, it looked like you were holding aluminum pipe up to the turbo for the charge piping, if you were planning that, I would imagine tubing would be about 1/10 the weight.

I missed it where you mentioned a custom cradle, do you think you can take enough weight out or add enough rigidity for it to be a benefit?


 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:

That's going to be a trick setup, building a new cradle. I read a thread of someone who did this to a Boxster:
https://engineswapdepot.com/?p=25774
That poor guy spent a couple years building a Boxster with an amped Audi 2.7tt. When he got it done, it burned due to the oil feed to the turbo leaking. He kept going though.


this guy has had his fair share of disasters but seems to keep chugging along like nothing happened...

https://grassrootsmotorspor...ri-308/148959/page1/

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https://joj2020.com/ <--- She isn't a sexual predator.

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Report this Post06-08-2020 07:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sourmash:
That's going to be a trick setup, building a new cradle.


I like to keep things interesting! I built my first on back in 2009, but didn't have a good bender, which caused me to alter from the previous design. The new one will be even better.


 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I saw in one of your pictures, it looked like you were holding aluminum pipe up to the turbo for the charge piping, if you were planning that, I would imagine tubing would be about 1/10 the weight.


That was a schedule 10 stainless bend I had left over, I won't be using it for the cold side. It will be 16ga tubing of some kind (stainless or aluminum. I would prefer aluminum, but I can weld stainless much, much better).

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I missed it where you mentioned a custom cradle, do you think you can take enough weight out or add enough rigidity for it to be a benefit?


The primary goal for the cradle is to provide additional clearance for the rear sway bar to clear the turbo and the AC pulley to clear the frame rail. Secondary goal is to keep the engine/transmission mounts simple. 3rd goal is to match the tube cradle that will be going in front to fit the custom front suspension and awd differential (couple years off still). Any minimal weight savings I come across will simply be a bonus.

Anyone taking the time to build a tube cradle thinking they are going to significantly reduce the weight hasn't ever weighed an 88 rear cradle. The bare stock cradle is 50 lbs stock w/o the uprights and links. The tube cradle as shown above was 40 lbs, but not complete at that stage. My current cradle is a little heavier that stock (stock main rails, 2/3 front/rear cross-members), so 10-15 lbs vs. current is about the maximum weight savings potential since I am sticking with .120 wall tube for strength, stiffness, and durability. I saved more than that switching to the dyna-batt and moving it forward, at a significantly lower cost.

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Report this Post06-12-2020 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When you have the first rail done, you have a template, but you also have to make both sides match... So in the end, the other side isn't really any quicker...




Here is a mock up of the rear crossmember tube. I also positioned the rear suspension pickup plates (proper position front to back, but pulled out about 4" because it won't fit with the drivetrain support plates). You can see the tube will have good alignment with the rear suspension link, but I will likely bend this tube so it will attach further forward and closer to the middle point between the two lateral links. The transmission side will likely be the limiter on how forward I can get the tubes and still clear the differential housing.



My CNC plasma table arrived this week. Reports are that it takes a few hours to put together, but I think I will continue to focus on the cradle this weekend and work on the table after work next week.
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Report this Post06-13-2020 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tacked in the front cradle mount sleeves to help hold the main rails in position:



I tacked the rear cradle mounts to the main tubes, bent and shaped the rear crossmember, tacked it in place and clamped it down to keep the cradle in position.



Then removed the rear cradle location fixture so I could install the turbo and check for sway bar clearance.



The scribe on the I beam fixture is the stock sway bar mounting surface/position (front to back).


Then I mocked up some of the exhaust bends for measurement and fun. Looks like I have about 7.5" for a 3.5" muffler between the turbo and the exhaust bend so the magnaflow 14160 with a 6" body will fit. Ideally I want to run two mufflers to help keep the car quieter (not that a 3" perforated tube exhaust will ever be quiet...). The 3.5" muffler will also help take the edge off when I run with the 3" cutout open (un-muffled exhaust isn't for me). The 3.5" muffler won't leave room for the wastegate exhaust to joint back up before the 3/5" muffler, so I have sourced a 2" stainless perforated tube muffler for it. With the wastegate having its own muffler, I will have the option to merge it after the 3.5 muffler or just vent it to atmosphere.



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Report this Post06-14-2020 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Before I can locate the front crossmember on the cradle, I really needed to nail down the accessory drive. I am going to go electric for now with a pump mounted up front, so that allowed me to raise the alternator and ac position slightly. It was really handing having the chassis with the mockup engine in the exact same position as the engine on the cradle. I made an adjustable alternator holder, adjusted it in the chassis to the proper location, then I could mount it on the fixture, take some measurements and draw everything up in autoCAD.

New alternator and AC positions:




I am glad I decided to install the water manifold/thermostat housing... The Dorman LS2 intake interferes with the nipple boss on the water neck. Also, the steam vent line was in the way as well, so I bent it out of the way for now. So this is another area I will have have to revisit and come up with some additional space.




Pretty happy with the progress this weekend. I also ordered the 3.5" x 6 magnaflow muffler, the muffler for the waste gate, some aluminum plate for the new alternator bracket (all drawn up in autoCAD), and the two idler pulleys that will allow me to reuse stock bolt locations on the engine.
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Report this Post06-17-2020 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did you abandon the mechanical water pump manifold you were designing a while back?
Are you putting in a different clutch this time?
Nice work.

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