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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1415 (112107 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 03-04-2019 05:37 PM
Will
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Report this Post01-10-2019 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by tampalinc:

I called PCS to inquire about a controller for the 6T75 and they directed me to http://www.zerogravityperformance.com who helped with Dan86GT’s car (LS2/6T75).
Zero Gravity Performance has a standalone controller for the 6T75.
They also mentioned you can use a Gen 4 LS that came with the 6sp auto to control the 6T75 and you won’t have to use a standalone controller.
I am currently doing a Turbo LS4/4T65, but am also keeping an eye out for a good deal on a 6T75 for a future project. It looks like the LS4 isn’t the way to go if using a 6T75, unless you plan on using a stand along controller.


Given the location of the forward cover and valve body, I'm not sure FieroGuru's method of installing a reversed starter for the LS4 will work.
Could a Gen 4 5.3 crank & crank sensor drop into the LS4 block?

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

This is the first listing to show an actual used transmission with the metric bellhousing that i have found. So it does exist, which is very good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Au...5738.m4383.l4275.c10


Good Find! RPO MH4
www.car-parts.com shows several line items for MH4 transmissions under 2008 Saturn Vue.
These line items show results that claim the vehicles the transmissions came out of had 3.5 engines:

AT, XE, AWD (opt MH4), from 10/08/08
AT, XE, AWD (opt MH4), thru 10/07/08


 
quote
Originally posted by tampalinc:

Do you know what needs to be changed to use a AWD trans in a 2WD application?


If it's similar to the Saab F40 setup, it looks like just unbolt the transfer case and install an axle seal.

Edit: The drive splines from the diff may interfere with the FWD axle seal... may need to either swap diff carriers or make a special seal carrier that would install from outside the transmission.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-10-2019).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-10-2019 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The 07+ LS4s are already Gen 4, so no need to do any cranks swapping unless you start with an 05 or 06 with are 24X with the E40 ecm.

I think only the 6T70 came with the metric bellhousing. The 6T75 was with the 3.6... if this is the case, then you will need an adapter plate, which then opens up the RWD engines as well. If you swap to a RWD ecm configuration on an LS4, you will need to swap the LS4 timing cover to a RWD version as the cam sensor is out of phase on the LS4 and this isn't something you can change in the tune. So if you use a RWD ECM/Calibration use the RWD timing cover as well as the throttle pedal... lots of issues when you start mixing and matching.

The wild idea I had was to start with the Ford unit. This transmission was co-developed for Ford & GM and Ford used it with a V8 application. So the thought process was to use the ford transmission and ford ecm, build an adapter plant and see about getting the ford ecm to run the LS engine (RWD or LS4). To much other stuff, and I am a manual transmission person, so I haven't done anything except thought "what if"...

To convert from an AWD to FWD, the opening in the AWD case is larger than the FWD case (atleast that is the case with the F40 AWD setups). There is also a spline extension on the differential carrier that sticks past the bearing support to drive the AWD unit, so any seal would have to be offset slightly to clear this spline (or swap out a FWD differential). So making a seal extension housing is probably all that is needed, but it still needs to ride on a machined seal surface.

I made one of these seal extension housing for the F40 10 years ago...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-10-2019).]

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Will
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Report this Post01-12-2019 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The 07+ LS4s are already Gen 4, so no need to do any cranks swapping unless you start with an 05 or 06 with are 24X with the E40 ecm.

If you swap to a RWD ecm configuration on an LS4, you will need to swap the LS4 timing cover to a RWD version as the cam sensor is out of phase on the LS4 and this isn't something you can change in the tune. So if you use a RWD ECM/Calibration use the RWD timing cover as well as the throttle pedal... lots of issues when you start mixing and matching.


And doesn't the LS4 waterpump interfere with all cam sensor locations except the LS4's?

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I think only the 6T70 came with the metric bellhousing. The 6T75 was with the 3.6... if this is the case, then you will need an adapter plate, which then opens up the RWD engines as well.

To convert from an AWD to FWD, the opening in the AWD case is larger than the FWD case (atleast that is the case with the F40 AWD setups). There is also a spline extension on the differential carrier that sticks past the bearing support to drive the AWD unit, so any seal would have to be offset slightly to clear this spline (or swap out a FWD differential). So making a seal extension housing is probably all that is needed, but it still needs to ride on a machined seal surface.



How much difference is there actually between the 6T70 and 6T75? Would the 6T70 bellhousing swap onto a 6T75 or even 6T80 (RPO MHM in XTS V-Sport)?

I figured it wasn't as easy as just popping the seal in, but with swapping in the RWD diff or using 6T80 guts the seal adapter could be simpler. Obviously your seal adapter works, so I assume the profile of the intermediate shaft allows moving the seal out while staying on a journal with the appropriate surface finish. Is there an LSD available?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-13-2019 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
And doesn't the LS4 waterpump interfere with all cam sensor locations except the LS4's?


Not really. Here is a pick of Don Kraus' RWD engine/timing cover with the LS4 water pump. The white sensor is the cam sensor and it clears everything. It really just comes down to keeping the wires away from the belt and pulleys.



 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
How much difference is there actually between the 6T70 and 6T75? Would the 6T70 bellhousing swap onto a 6T75 or even 6T80 (RPO MHM in XTS V-Sport)?


I am not sure. Haven't really spent much time researching all the details of the 6T70+ transmission series, as most of my focus transmission-wise is on the F40.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I figured it wasn't as easy as just popping the seal in, but with swapping in the RWD diff or using 6T80 guts the seal adapter could be simpler. Obviously your seal adapter works, so I assume the profile of the intermediate shaft allows moving the seal out while staying on a journal with the appropriate surface finish. Is there an LSD available?


I made that housing for the F40 to use a tripod vs. intermediate shaft on the passenger side. With the design of the F40, the tripot stuck out an inch too far, so this left the support and seal area exposed, helped everything work with the seal extension. The F40 has a LSD available from Quaife and wavetrac. Not sure about the 6T70+ transmissions.



In the pictures above, the differential housing surface was recessed about 1" from the bellhousing face and the spacer merely moved the seal mounting surface to be flush with the bellhousing face. The 6T70+ transmissions didn't recess this area, so the differential seal surface is flush with the bellhousing. From looking at intermediate shafts for the 6T70+, they have a longer seal surface area, so I assume they go about the same depth into the transmission (as the F40), but since the seal surface it 1" further out, the seal surfaces on the shafts are longer. Can they be made even longer... hard to say without installing one in an AWD 6T70+ transmission.

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post01-15-2019 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Started working on the prototype mechanical water pump. Here is the base plate mostly milled, I still need to finish the machine work at the bottom, make the cover plate and a couple of parts for the backside...


Are you still considering the mechanical W/P setup you were designing?

Also, have you tried or considered swapping back to the old wheels to reach 30mpg? How much of a change in the economy did you see with the bigger rims?
Did the new gearset increase your mileage? if so, how much?
Lastly, was the fuel tank mod to increase capacity worth the effort? How much range did it add?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-16-2019 02:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Are you still considering the mechanical W/P setup you were designing?


Yes, I have never been a fan of electric water pumps...
However, the electric water pump manifold setup provides more room for the accessory drive and is a much simpler solution (and is much closer to being ready). I will likely run it until I am ready to test the new mechanical version... which won't be anytime soon.


 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
have you tried or considered swapping back to the old wheels to reach 30mpg? How much of a change in the economy did you see with the bigger rims?


The old wheels are on it right now for the winter in case I need to take it out when the temps are below 40. But doing a mileage test in the winter is counter productive.
I used to get 29 mpg quite often with the 245/50/16 rear tires. First 12 hr intestate trip with the 285/30/18 rear wheels didn't break 28 (this was before the final drive swap). This summer (after the FD swap) I did break 30 mpg on 2 tanks running the interstate in WI (no ethanol blend), but that was more of a fuel benefit than anything else.


 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Did the new gearset increase your mileage? if so, how much?


Before with the engine spinning higher rpms, it worked well with the overlap on the camshaft. 1900 to 2000 rpm seemed to the transition point where the engine overcame the overlap degradation. Now with the lower cruise rpm, I think the overlap is hurting the cruise mpg some - point being I have verified better fuel economy at 80 (2100 rpm) than at 70 (1800 rpm). I used to get my best mpg at 70 (2100 rpm) before the FD change which points to an opportunity for improvement with a camshaft with less overlap (which is what is on the shelf and ready to go in).

The big benefit is how the car drives. Before 1st gear was like driving a 2006 GTO 6 speed with 4.50 gears. Now its like driving the same GTO with 3.93 final drive - still very sporty, but a little more realistic. With a 7K power band, I can hit 45 mph in 1st, break 80 mph in 2nd and hit 127 at the top of 3rd. I also don't drive through town in 6th anymore.


 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Lastly, was the fuel tank mod to increase capacity worth the effort? How much range did it add?


The current setup wasn't too aggressive, and it has been 6 years (and probably 4 since I drove an 88 Fiero with a tank with a stock vent), I think I added a 2nd vent an inch or two above the current spot, which gains a little capacity (I did the math once - and it is somewhere in this thread). I routinely fill up with 10.2 to 10.3 gallons w/o any hint of running out of fuel. Beyond that it comes down to how accurate and consistent the fuel gauge is and how willing you are to walk. The next vent will be higher and I am hoping the new Fiero Store sender is more consistent than the 30+ year old one that is in there.

Just for work, I drove over 23K miles last year between my truck and the Fiero, nearly all interstate.
My largest project this year is a 294 mile round trip... so I would really like to have 330 to 350 usable miles between fill ups. Right now when I get to about 280 I start looking for a gas station and when I do a there and back the same day I always have to stop for gas somewhere vs. filling up at home and being able to make it there and back w/o needing gas (my truck can do this as it has a pretty reliable 330 mile range). So even 0.5 to 1 more gallon of usable capacity will reduce the number of stops. It also reduces the risk of running out when there is 30-40 miles between gas stations.

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Report this Post01-20-2019 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The LS4/F40 is still together, too cold to get to the dyno.

It was 9 degrees today... so it was a good day to make some more aluminum chips fly in the garage. Last winter I purchases a kerosene heater, so now I can wear a t-shirt in the garage when it is single digits outside!

The water manifold machining is just about complete.




I also finished up the cad layout for the accessory layout and ordered the aluminum to make the needed parts...

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Report this Post01-27-2019 12:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for shemdoggSend a Private Message to shemdoggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That looks awesome man! You do some nice work!

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-17-2019 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks!


Between the winter weather, dyno shop schedule, and my out-of-state travel, I haven't been able to get the LS4/F40 on the dyno for the baseline run, so I haven't started to tear it apart yet.

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Will
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Report this Post02-22-2019 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Why's the inlet on the rear bank side of your water manifold again?

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Report this Post02-22-2019 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Why's the inlet on the rear bank side of your water manifold again?


Probably to keep the hose out of the way of the alt, water pump, ac comp, tensioner, idler pullys and belt... There's a lot going on on the front side of the engine...

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-22-2019 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Why's the inlet on the rear bank side of your water manifold again?


There are many reasons that lead to that placement, but the top 5 (not in any particular order):
  • Current locations opens up potential front engine/RWD applications - probably a much larger market than LS swapped Fieros.
  • I can use the same base housing for the electrical and mechanical versions (just install a plug for the mechanical versions).
  • Keeps hose out of the way for installing the belt - especially if you need to do it away from the garage.
  • Eliminates the hose from view... I am a little fussy about visible hose and wiring clutter.
  • Didn't find a hose inlet neck that I liked that could be surface mounted, clear the frame rail, had proper placement for the inlet neck mounting bolts to clear the coolant passages, and with a seal surface that could clear the existing bolt hole locations in the water housing (I have 10 or 15 of the water inlets on the shelf trying to find something I was happy with.


Here is the proposed layout for the electric water pump version:


Here is the prototype back plate/accessory mount plate for the mechanical water pump version.

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Report this Post03-02-2019 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

LS4/F40 Fiero hasn't moved in a month or so. Still waiting for some nicer weather.

I have added a couple more tools to the collection, both are tubing benders.

Hand bender:
3/8",1/2",9/16",5/8",3/4",7/8” round tubing dies
1”,3/4" square tube dies



Hydraulic bender:
3/4", 1", 1-1/2", 1-5/8", 1-3/4 round tubing dies

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Mike Morris
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Report this Post03-02-2019 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike MorrisClick Here to Email Mike MorrisSend a Private Message to Mike MorrisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You do great work. Nice job

------------------
1999 Camaro Z28 B4C Heads Cam Intake Stall etc
1992 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 331 R block S trim Intercooled
1988 MR2 SC Cammed,Pulley etc
1988 Corvette Cammed stalled bolt ons
1985 Fiero SE V6-Transgo,stall,K&N,cat EGR delete,Ported TB

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Will
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Report this Post03-04-2019 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


There are many reasons that lead to that placement, but the top 5 (not in any particular order):
  • Current locations opens up potential front engine/RWD applications - probably a much larger market than LS swapped Fieros.
  • I can use the same base housing for the electrical and mechanical versions (just install a plug for the mechanical versions).
  • Keeps hose out of the way for installing the belt - especially if you need to do it away from the garage.
  • Eliminates the hose from view... I am a little fussy about visible hose and wiring clutter.
  • Didn't find a hose inlet neck that I liked that could be surface mounted, clear the frame rail, had proper placement for the inlet neck mounting bolts to clear the coolant passages, and with a seal surface that could clear the existing bolt hole locations in the water housing (I have 10 or 15 of the water inlets on the shelf trying to find something I was happy with.


Here is the proposed layout for the electric water pump version:




Not enough clearance to battery tray or frame rail to bring it out of the page and then install a 90 degree elbow?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post03-04-2019 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Mike Morris:

You do great work. Nice job



Thanks! I just wish I had more free time to make quicker progress.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Not enough clearance to battery tray or frame rail to bring it out of the page and then install a 90 degree elbow?


I have never verified clearance to the battery tray for any swap... I just assume it will be removed.
There are options for a 90 degree neck off the face, but it is very tight... It also puts the hose in the way of installing the belt 100% from the top, and ultimately I liked the "look" with the hose hidden.

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