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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1365 (106518 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 06-16-2018 03:37 PM
fieroguru
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Report this Post07-30-2017 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I finally finished plumbing in the copper air lines to both bays. I ran the compressor up to 90 psi and I am letting it sit to check for leaks, but I didn't hear any. Edit, after 2 hrs it is still holding 90 psi, so it is leak free!

Without the cooling fan running yet, the inlet tube is too hot to touch, but the outlet tube is barely warm. I think that the longer the compressor runs the fan will likely be needed. I need to bring home my IR temp gun and let the compressor run for about 30 minutes with one the lines cracked open so I can see how well the system controls the temp of the air and traps water.

Here is the compressor installed. There is a quick disconnect right off the prison door section.


Here is another drop at the other end of the tool bay.


Here is the last drop in the 2 car bay and by the mill. It has 2 quick disconnects. The top one will have a hose connection to the regulator/filter. The bottom one will be hooked to the air chuck on the mill.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-30-2017).]

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shemdogg
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Report this Post07-30-2017 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shemdoggSend a Private Message to shemdoggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bro your garage looks awesome, cant wait till I have a decent sized garage. Thats a whole lotta copper pipe! seeing that pipe w the ball valve reminds me of a freinds dad. he had a 1" pipe w ball valve hooked up to his compressors 100gal air tank that he would open w a rope whenever the neighbors got too loud. He showed me one time and my ears hurt being in the house lol good times

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-31-2017 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks! My garage is a work in progress.
The tool bay is 13 x 25, but I can't fit a car in there.
The main bay is 21 x 19 and mostly open except the mill in the corner. A Fiero will fit in there, but to pull the cradle, I will likely need to use the whole bay and have the Fiero sitting at an angle. I soooooooo want to expand the tool bay, but need to get it past the HOA (limited to 3 car garage attached to the house). What I would like to do is tear down the tool bay, shift it back about 8' so it can be 16' wide, then make it 30' deep, and on the back of it make a large "rec room" (with dual door access to the garage that a Fiero will fit past) that I can use as my tool bay and leave the 3rd bay for work. This would still only allow 3 cars in the "garage", but a 4th project car in the tool bay, and improve my driveway parking... just dreaming of the garage mahal....

This compressor dryer project did use 80' of 3/4" tubing. 40' in the prison door and 40' with the routing of the drops in the bays. I have a couple of burnt fingertips from all the soldered connections, and I was amazed that the used propane bottle lasted the entire project.

24 hrs and the tank and pipes are still holding 90 psi... I think it is good.

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Report this Post08-05-2017 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I picked up a Pontiac accessory storage bag several weeks back and started working on making it a tool kit for the LS4/F40 Fiero.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/097633.html

Here are all the tools and stuff in the bag so far:



After what seams like forever... my European/Diesel F40 is in the USA and at the Indianapolis facility. I should be able to pick it up at a Fed Ex location in Champaign on Monday evening!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-05-2017).]

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Bob2112
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Report this Post08-05-2017 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Please post pics and as much details as you have time for of the gear swap on the F40!

Also, just notice that Spec sells the LS4/F40 clutch and flywheel now thanks to the note on your webpage. Do you know how they compare to the flywheel you designed and the spec clutch set you sourced for this build?

------------------
New Moon Rising - 1988 Black Formula
My Blue Heaven - 1965 Mustang Coupe

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-06-2017 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bob2112:

Please post pics and as much details as you have time for of the gear swap on the F40!

Also, just notice that Spec sells the LS4/F40 clutch and flywheel now thanks to the note on your webpage. Do you know how they compare to the flywheel you designed and the spec clutch set you sourced for this build?



One of my customers is using the Spec flywheel and clutch setup. I had him check a few critical dimensions and all indications at that time were that it would work just fine.

The overall shape and style of the flywheel are similar, but the pressure plates are different. Spec had F40 flywheels for the 3800 and N* long before I made mine and the placement of the pressure plate fingers once installed looks like what they did for the 3800/F40 setup with the fingers extending past the pressure plate to take up some of the excess space. My setup doesn't do that.

Spec's LS4/F40 Flywheel:


Mine:


Spec's Clutch Disk:


Mine:


Spec's Pressure Plate:


Mine:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-06-2017).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-08-2017 08:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My new toy arrived from the UK. First thing I did was confirm 1.92 rotations of the input shaft for 1 rotation of the differential in 6th gear (vs. the 2.21 for the G6 F40). It is indeed the 3.09 final drive!

Some obvious differences from the G6 F40...
Bellhousing pattern is different.
Shifter setup uses a 2 bolt flange vs. the 3 bolt setup
HTOB connection is different
No VSS sensor
Reverse switch is in a different position
Differential bolt pattern on bellhousing side is different (looks like it has the bosses for the AWD setup)
Gearside of the differential has a lot more ribbing/reinforcement

Originally, I just wanted the swap the final drive to the G6 F40 case, but now I might have to explore swapping the gearside of the transmission case as well. To do that I will have to rework my rear transmission mount, shifter bracket, extend the reverse light wires, do "something" for the VSS and there might be some other issues with the mounting of the catch can and ecm. The extra ribbing might interfere with the cradle some as well.

Bellhousing:


Differential bolt bosses on the bellhousing side:



Ribbing on gear side of differential:



Shifter mounting flange:




Front side of transmission:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-08-2017).]

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Trinten
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Report this Post08-09-2017 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm going to ask 'the dumb question' -- is it impossible or more difficult to swap all the guts from one case into the other? I imagine the exterior changes were for getting it to work in UK chassis... but excluding the gear ratio, wouldn't all the internal dimensions of the cases be the same?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-09-2017 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

I'm going to ask 'the dumb question' -- is it impossible or more difficult to swap all the guts from one case into the other? I imagine the exterior changes were for getting it to work in UK chassis... but excluding the gear ratio, wouldn't all the internal dimensions of the cases be the same?


In theory you "should" be able to do a complete guts swap from one case to the other, but that needs to be verified to know for sure. The primary issue with that is that the guts swap would get you the 3.09 final drive, but it would also bring over an even crappier 1st gear.

To get the hybrid gear setup, I will have to tear down the input shaft, both intermediate shafts, and swap over the differential gear. That just gets the desired ratios. At that point it shouldn't matter which case I use, but GM changed the shifter setup to reduce the neutral rattle, and the later model case appears to be stronger. If I want these additional benefits, then I will need to do the additional work to use the later model gear side case.

code:

Trans Final Drive 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
G6 3.55 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62
MYJ 3.09 4.17 2.13 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62

Hybrid 3.09 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62


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Report this Post08-09-2017 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got it, so to use the old case and get all the ratios you want, it would be more work because of a more involved tear-down. And to your point, the new case may be much stronger (which I think makes sense, since AWD would be heavier shock loading, right?)

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Report this Post08-10-2017 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The amount of reinforcement on the differential is impressive. Looks very much like the Regal F40 housing .
For all the observers here, I currently have a few F40 transmissions from various applications to build this gear package (one day). This transmission is very popular still in European cars from Opel and Alfa Romeo, and was in the Buick Regal after GM cut Pontiac. Only the G6 version had the GM Metric V6 bell-housing though.

code:

FD from 2003 FM68: 3.91
1st from a 2006 MT2: 3.77 overall 14.74
2nd from 2006 MT2: 2.04 overall 7.67 split .54
3rd from 2007 MU9 1.37 overall 5.15 split .67
4th from 2007 MU9 1.05 overall 3.95 split .77
5th from 2007 MU9 0.85 overall 3.20 split .81
6th from 2006 MT2 0.62 overall 2.78 split .73


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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-12-2017 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The donor...


Open case halves:



Initial breakdown:



Disassembled:


The 3 key parts to the 3.091 (68/22) final drive swap. Upper Main Shaft, Lower Main Shaft, and Differential Gear.

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FieroWannaBe
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Report this Post08-12-2017 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Now looks like a great time for a wavetrac or quaife. Especially wuen going turbo.

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Report this Post08-13-2017 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

Now looks like a great time for a wavetrac or quaife. Especially wuen going turbo.


A LSD isn't in the budget right now, but I did spend an hour figuring what the difference is between the F35 and F40 diffs as the F35 has an OBX LSD for about $335, but it would place the ring gear in the wrong position.

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Report this Post08-13-2017 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I started taking the G6 F40 apart and verified a few things. The ring gear for the 3.09 final drive is smaller than the 3.55 one, so I will need to move the VSS closer to the ring gear. The good thing is that there is extra material I can mill away on the case to move it in closer.

3.55 final drive:


3.09 final drive:


The case bolt patterns between the two transmissions are not the same. The 3.09 case has 2 extra bolts under the lower main shaft (bottom side of the transmission). The lower main shaft is for gears 1, 2, 5 & 6 so it sees the highest torque loads. I could probably drill the 2 missing holes and make a bolt on brace of something to pick them up on the other side.


Some slight clearancing would be needed for the clutch line bleeder assy to fit.


The differential bolt pattern on the bellhousing side is completely different. No 2 holes line up to the holes with the G6 case.


Some other pics of the two cases bolted together:



The outside of the gear side cases clearly shows additional reinforcing with the 3.09 case, but the same is also true on the inside as well:
3.55:

3.09:


The bellhousing side is also deeper on the 3.09 case than the 3.55.



I think for now, I am just going to swap the final drive gears into the G6 case. This will be the least amount of work (just need to mill down the VSS boss) and then the transmission would be plug & play with the one in my car. This would allow doing the trans swap over a weekend and be back driving the car to see how I like the setup before putting a lot more time and effort into the other upgrades.

I need to take a few more measurements before I disassemble the main shafts. I am also waiting on new bearings for the main shaft. The ones with the 3.09 main shafts were used and the bearings on the final drive end were destroyed in removal.

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Report this Post08-13-2017 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There was sufficient additional material as the VSS boss to mill away the needed amount to put the VSS at the same clearance to the 3.09 ring gear.




I also finished disassembling the 3.55 gear set:



If I wasn't waiting for the new bearings for the main shaft, I would already have the gear swap completed... My goal is to finish up the swap this week and swap the transmissions next weekend...

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Report this Post08-14-2017 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Are there crush sleeves for the differential bearings in these transmissions?

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Report this Post08-14-2017 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

Are there crush sleeves for the differential bearings in these transmissions?


No crush sleeve anywhere in the transmission.

The differential does call for shims behind the outer bearing race on the bellhousing side to set the preload.

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Report this Post08-25-2017 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I moved most of the details of the F40 final drive swap to this thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/097738.html

ARP bolts on the 3.091 ring gear:


Main shafts and ring gear swapped and everything cleaned ready for installation:



Painted and nearly ready for installation:


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Report this Post08-26-2017 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I lost a few hours today making this engine support bar in preparation of removing the transmission. The brackets on the side have a bolt that locks into a hole in the strut tower and there is a leg on the other end that rests on the upper frame rail. The cross bar bolts to these side brackets and once tight everything is locked into place. I wrapped several areas of the side brackets with 5 wraps of electrical tape to help reduce chances of scratching the paint.




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Report this Post08-27-2017 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Out with the old and in with the new:


The 3.09 final drive transmission is now bolted to the LS4, but I still have a lot of things to hook back up. I am hoping to have the car back running after work on Monday or Tuesday. One of the things I have to address is the DS tripod doesn't want to come out of the old transmission. I have known about this issue since the initial install, but never really needed to fix it... until now.

I am going to split the case, remove all the ring gear bolts, then I can separate the rear differential (it is 2 parts). Then I should have direct access to the tripod snap ring and can compress it enough to let the tripod come out.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-27-2017).]

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Report this Post08-29-2017 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The LS4/F40 Fiero is back up and running and so far I am liking the 3.09 final drive. 1st gear is much nicer and I can still cruise at 55 mph at 1480 rpm in 6th gear. Probably won't be able to use 6th much lower (I used to cruise in 6th in town at 40 mph). I still need to align the car, change the speedo values in the tune, drive it a lot more, and get it on the interstate for some fuel economy numbers.

While the cradle was out, I took the time to bend some 3/16" wire to the shape of the truck panels as well as the shape of the frame rails on both sides. I still need to transfer these wires to another bracket so the bar won't be in the way. Then I can play around some more with the turbo placement some more.



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Report this Post09-10-2017 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Been playing around with turbo mockup. Not sure if this is where it will end up as it would require relocating the sway bar, and could potentially be in the way for the AWD transfer case too... It is a snug fit but doesn't require any trunk mods.



I am also torn on the exhaust manifolds. I think before it is all said and done, I will have nearly every LS(x) manifold here. I already have LS4, LS7, truck, and just added LS1 C5 and have the LS6 C5 manifolds on their way. The LS1 C5 manifold is shown below. If I use it, I will cut it off above the O2 sensor bung and have it dump to the bottom.


Here is a sample off the other C5 exhaust manifold. They are cast, have factory heat shields, and are supposed to have smaller primaries that should help spool.


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Report this Post10-08-2017 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

During the past month, I decided to get my 6000 lb scissor lift out of storage and cannibalize the parts from my smaller scissor lift on wheels to get the larger one operational.

Here is the small scissor lift - I haven't used it in 10+ years...
The pump and hydraulics are in the base and it has a 110v plug in and control pendent. These are the parts that will be transferred to the larger scissor lift.



The larger scissor lift is about 44" x 64", is rated for 6000 lbs, has a 7" height in the lowered position and 50" lift height. I have had it around 7+ years and the plan was to recess it in the floor when I build a garage and use it for engine swaps on Fieros. I am not ready to recess it in the floor, but I would like to be able to use it. For it to be useful, it needs to be portable, needs some safety locks, and needs to have a pump and controls.

To make it portable, I welded some large nuts on the side of the frame and installed some wheels (used front wheels from a stand up fork truck). When installed, they raise the scissor lift about 1" off the floor. Remove the bolt/axle and the wheels come off and the base can rest on the floor:



To raise the other end, I welded in a 1 1/4" hitch receiver and will use my floor jack to lift it and steer it.


For the safety locks I decided to use pins in the lower base. The 1/2" holes are spaced 1" apart and I welded a reinforcing plate on both sides to better support the lock pins.


To make the scissor lift function, I needed to move the pump and controls from the smaller scissor lift to the larger one. First it needed a plate installed in the base to support the pump and tank:


I never liked the power cord hanging out the side of the small scissor lift, so I welded a box to the outside of the frame and welded a metal male plug end to the box. This will allow easy connection to an extension cord, while protecting the plug with the metal box. Additionally, I never liked the 15'+ of the pendent cord that was always in the way. So I wanted the pendent mounted on the bottom side of the platform so everything was self-contained. Lastly, the oil tank on the small scissor lift was too small, so I fabbed up a new one. Here is everything packaged tightly in the available space:


Here is the pendent mounted under the platform:


The scissor lift is now in the stored position under my metal work table (I had to move it from the 2 car bay to this bay, and it rolls pretty well). It is still super heavy, but manageable. You can also see the metal box protecting the power plug as well as the section of pipe I used to get the wires from the motor to the pendent


So now I am ready to pull the LS4/F40 swap for some upgrades this winter. Just have to wait until the weather gets bad and I can't drive the car to start the work.

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Report this Post01-01-2018 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Aside from the 3.09 final drive swap, I didn't do much to the LS4/F40 Fiero besides drive it. The swap has 44K miles on it now. I did start collecting a spare set of panels and start sanding them so I can get the car painted some day...

2017 was more about increasing my tool inventory and capability.
  • Added DRO to the Lathe
  • Added a couple of heat exchangers to the compressor and hard plumbed air to a few locations in the garage
  • Made an engine support bar to swap out transmissions while keeping the engine in place
  • Made the large scissor lift portable and made it functional
  • Made a Pontiac Accessory Bag tool kit
  • Added a vertical mounting plate to the mill
  • Added an oil misting setup to the mill - but didn't like it so I am still using a squirt bottle
  • Picked up an Alpha-TIG 200X for welding aluminum and stainless - swapped the short power cord for 12' 10ga one and installed the proper plug for my 220V outlets.
  • Picked up a 50K BTU kerosene/diesel heater... now I can wear a t-shirt in the garage when it is -10 degrees outside.


Here are some pictures for the items I haven't posted about earlier:


[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-02-2018).]

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Rickady88GT
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Report this Post01-02-2018 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sorry if you posted the information already,I did not see it,.......but did you do a spread sheet of gear ratios and what exactly is your (for your project) ideal ratio?
With the potentially available final gear ratios, RPM and MPH in each gear.
I have seen such spread sheets for other cars, but not for this engine, trans and car combination. Our Fieros have characteristics that others do not. Weight, weight distribution, tire diameter and width, wheel base and length for example.
Thanks for ll yourtime, VERY cool stuff and innovative.

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FieroWannaBe
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Report this Post01-02-2018 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have some of that info. But I cant post the images. I can email them.

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Report this Post01-02-2018 04:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

I have some of that info. But I cant post the images. I can email them.


I don't post pictures either.
I tried to download PIP to my Android phone, but does not work or I did it wrong.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-02-2018 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are some of the individual gear ratios and final drives.



I have a spreadsheet that I keep for all the transmission details, but I only entered the ones I was interested in and only for my tire diameter (which will change MPH & RPM)

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-02-2018).]

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Report this Post01-02-2018 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are the gear ratios in my hybrid F40:
code:
Transmission			1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	FD
MT2 GM 2006 G6 w/ 3.09 Final 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62 3.09



My car has 24.9" tires (285/30/18) and a 7000 rpm power band (rev limited set at 7200 rpm), these are the theoretical top speeds in each gear:
code:

RPM Gear Max MPH
7000 1st 44.49
7000 2nd 82.22
7000 3rd 127.07
7000 4th 176.56
7000 5th 220.69
7000 6th 270.53




For highway cruising, these are the RPMs in 5th and 6th at a few set speeds:
code:

MPH Gear RPM
60 5th 1903
70 5th 2220
80 5th 2537
60 6th 1553
70 6th 1811
80 6th 2070




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Report this Post01-02-2018 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks, so are the 6th gear speeds acual or theoretical?
I just don't like the top gear theoretical numbers. Of coarse that is with an unloaded condition, but on a dyno what do you think it will change to?
When I had my LS4 4T65EHD on the dyno, it was run up to 180mph. I will never drive the car that fast but I can say that the drive train has done it at least 5 times.
The reason I am asking is because I want to build a manual transmission for my LS4. But I want it as close to the same ratios and feel of my 2006 LS2 GTO. That would be perfect for me.

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Report this Post01-02-2018 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Most dynos are ran in whatever gear gets it closest to 1:1 ratio. So your LS4/4T65 should have been dyno'd in 3rd gear. I dyno'd my LS4/F40 in 4th gear (151 mph @ 7000 rpm). With the final drive swap, when I dyno it the rear wheels will spin 176 mph.

Maximum vehicle speed will be reached in 5th, not 6th, so any maximum speeds are theoretical because they simply can't be reached under normal conditions (and assume no clutch slip, no tire expansion, and power to reach those speeds).

I did some digging and the 06 GTO came with 245/45/17 tires (25.6"), 3.46 final drive, and gear ratios of 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.00, 0.84 and 0.56.

The maximum mph at 6000 rpm in each gear of your GTO are:

code:
Tire Dia	RPM	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th
25.6 6000 44 64 92 132 157 236



Using my rear tire size (24.9"), the same 6000 rpm, and the stock G6 F40 gears and final drive (3.55). Notice 2nd, 3rd and 4th are about the same as the GTO, with 1st and 6th being much shorter and 5th taller (swap in the 0.85 5th gear and the MPH would drop to 147 making it also shorter than the GTO's). So running around town in 2nd, 3rd and 4th - the two transmissions with slightly different tire heights are very similar (but the Fiero is 1000 lbs lighter).
code:
Tire Dia	RPM	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th
24.9 6000 33 61 95 132 165 202



Keeping the 24.9" tire, the same 6000 rpm, and the G6 F40 ratios with the 3.09. Now 1st and 6th are closer between the two transmissions and 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th are all longer. With a car that weighs 1000 lbs less, the longer gears are not really an issue.
code:
Tire Dia	RPM	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th
24.9 6000 38 70 109 151 189 232



If you wanted to make 3rd - 5th less long, you can swap in the short gear ratios for each and end up with this combo:
code:
Tire Dia	RPM	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th
24.9 6000 38 70 105 137 170 232

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-02-2018).]

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Report this Post01-02-2018 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have 255 45 17 and should be about 26.04 dia. That would change the numbers quite a bit.
But I think the taller 1st and shorter 6th should work best for my style.
I don't need ultimate top speed or fuel economy, just a comfortable cruise RPM in 6th. Something around 1900-2100 at about 65-70.
The first gear should get to at least 40 and the rest of the gears should be smooth enough to comfortably and evenly fill the gaps between with even and consistent RPM drops. This would make the best use of the LS4 power band. Of course a modified LS4 powerband. Something like 30-40 MPH per gear would be perfect.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-03-2018).]

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Report this Post01-03-2018 01:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I found a gear ratio calculator that I can input the gear ratios, axle ratio, tire diameter and RPM for a calculation of MPH in each gear. I input the taller 1st gear of 3.77 and kept the rest of the gears stock for the F40 including the stock 3.55 final drive and the end result was a near perfect 40mph first and about (theoretical) 40mph gain per gear after that.
6500 RPM: basically stock with bolt on bits and dyno tuned.
Final drive ratio: 3.55
1st gear: 3.77 = 38mph
2nd gear:2.04 = 70mph
3rd gear: 1.32 = 107mph
4th gear: .95 = 149mph
5th gear: .76 = 187mph
6th gear: .62 = 229mph
This would make the cruise RPM of 1900
5th gear: 55mph
6th gear: 67mph
And a 1600RPM cruise in 6th at 55mph.
Figure in aerodynamic drag and engine power limitations, and the gear shifts (mph) get closer together as the car goes faster. Starts out about 40mph in first and progressively gets down to around 30 - 20mph or less per gear change with a top speed drag and power limited to about 180. Just a guess, could be way off, but hopefully you understand what I want to accomplish with a gear set change.
The drag coefficient of a Fiero is about.377
The frontal area is about 20 Sq ft.
I guess the weight to be around 3000.
This will require about 320hp to do 180mph.
JUST ROUGH ESTIMATES for bench racing purposes; )
I would like the 6th gear to be the highest speed, not 5th. A high top speed in 5th just makes 6th an economy gear. I would rather have a true close ratio transmission. But most importantly I would like a more practical 1st gear out of the F40. The original stock 1st gear is a joke for an LS. Might as well start off in 2nd. BUT honestly, I have never driven an LS F40, only read comments from others who have. I am trying to figure out the best ratios for my engine, car, driving preference combo and trying to match my GTO.

If I got this correctly, I know now what I am looking for.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-03-2018).]

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Report this Post01-03-2018 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The 3 challenges are:

1st and 2nd gear are cut on the input shaft and must be changed as a pair.
The G6 1st and 2nd (3.77/2.04) are less than ideal, but they are the longest ones available. The other options are 3.92/2.04 and 4.17/2.13.
If you want 6th to be max vehicle speed, you will want to run a the .740 6th, but this will negate most of the cruise rpm benefit.

High torque V8s in light cars don't need a tight ratio transmission as they have a near flat torque curve and can pull well with a wider spread. This allows 6th to be a cruise only gear with the primary focus being fuel economy and comfort.

This is why I went with the 3.09 final drive to make 1st and 2nd longer (along with all the other gears because my long term goal is to go turbo and they like taller gears) and the car now feels more like a stock V8 car vs being an over geared swap. When you find yourself driving in 6th gear in town (45 mph) your gears are too short.

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Report this Post01-03-2018 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Off topic, but, If one wants a 6 speed trans-axle with a very free ratio selection, check out here:
http://eliteracingtransmiss...-sub-menu/fwd250-6s/
This is a sequential (think motorcycle shifting) gearbox and is not a bad price considering. 350ft-lb torque capacity isn't terrible, its better than the F40's rating from GM, although i doubt the criteria for those ratings are not the same.

I own a 2004 M6 GTO, and of the T56 range, a GTO has a close ratio spread from the Z06 in 1-5 with the tallest 6th available from Tremec, and top speed is reached in 4th, with these transmissions depending on aero and if the limiter is turned off. 5th and 6th are overdrive gears, for cruising, since a car spends like 90% of its life below 3000 RPM (unless you drive a 4 speed manual).

For generic performance, Ratios should be chosen so that the RPM drop between gears does not leave the engine outside the "power band". for track use, you need to tailor your gear ratios for your fastest corners, so that corner exit occurs at the start of the "power band" when exiting, so less time is spent shifting.

How OEM manufacturers choose ratios is a mess, and they have many requirements to meet, including cruising, acceleration, towing, starting, stopping, vehicle mass, range, emissions cycle, durability, mileage.

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Report this Post01-03-2018 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The 3 challenges are:

1st and 2nd gear are cut on the input shaft and must be changed as a pair.
The G6 1st and 2nd (3.77/2.04) are less than ideal, but they are the longest ones available. The other options are 3.92/2.04 and 4.17/2.13.
If you want 6th to be max vehicle speed, you will want to run a the .740 6th, but this will negate most of the cruise rpm benefit.

High torque V8s in light cars don't need a tight ratio transmission as they have a near flat torque curve and can pull well with a wider spread. This allows 6th to be a cruise only gear with the primary focus being fuel economy and comfort.

This is why I went with the 3.09 final drive to make 1st and 2nd longer (along with all the other gears because my long term goal is to go turbo and they like taller gears) and the car now feels more like a stock V8 car vs being an over geared swap. When you find yourself driving in 6th gear in town (45 mph) your gears are too short.


You are correct on the gear sets, but whats better is that you know what you want. That is huge.
If the numbers I punched in are accurate and the calculator is correct, then that is as close to what I want as I can ask for. True that 6th will not be the fastest gear, given the power limitations, but the ideal cruise RPM is on target. And a taller first gear is a must. A 3.55 final drive brings down all of the final drive ratios 1-6, but with my wheel combo, everything worked out,.....on "paper".

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Report this Post01-03-2018 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

When you find yourself driving in 6th gear in town (45 mph) your gears are too short.


I do this all the time in my LS1 GTO (with its factory cam), Engine speed is about 1200RPM, but the LS1 doesn't complain and just churns along down county highways.

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Report this Post01-17-2018 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I think it is time for an update

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Report this Post01-17-2018 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Not much to update. I live in the snow/rust belt so the car has been parked in the garage since mid November. I try to take it for a drive when the temps are above 50 and there is no salt on the ground, but that hasn't happened in the last month.

Also contributing to the lack of progress is that for the last month, I have been traveling for my day job 3-5 days per week, every week, and I expect that to continue through March, possibly longer. This week started as a 3 day trip and was extended to a 5 day one.

The only upgrade I want to get done over the winter is to get the car painted so it is ready for the 35th, but I am hoping I can pay someone to do that for me.

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