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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1262 (99043 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 09-10-2017 09:04 PM
fieroguru
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Report this Post07-30-2017 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I finally finished plumbing in the copper air lines to both bays. I ran the compressor up to 90 psi and I am letting it sit to check for leaks, but I didn't hear any. Edit, after 2 hrs it is still holding 90 psi, so it is leak free!

Without the cooling fan running yet, the inlet tube is too hot to touch, but the outlet tube is barely warm. I think that the longer the compressor runs the fan will likely be needed. I need to bring home my IR temp gun and let the compressor run for about 30 minutes with one the lines cracked open so I can see how well the system controls the temp of the air and traps water.

Here is the compressor installed. There is a quick disconnect right off the prison door section.


Here is another drop at the other end of the tool bay.


Here is the last drop in the 2 car bay and by the mill. It has 2 quick disconnects. The top one will have a hose connection to the regulator/filter. The bottom one will be hooked to the air chuck on the mill.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-30-2017).]

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shemdogg
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Report this Post07-30-2017 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shemdoggSend a Private Message to shemdoggEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bro your garage looks awesome, cant wait till I have a decent sized garage. Thats a whole lotta copper pipe! seeing that pipe w the ball valve reminds me of a freinds dad. he had a 1" pipe w ball valve hooked up to his compressors 100gal air tank that he would open w a rope whenever the neighbors got too loud. He showed me one time and my ears hurt being in the house lol good times

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-31-2017 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks! My garage is a work in progress.
The tool bay is 13 x 25, but I can't fit a car in there.
The main bay is 21 x 19 and mostly open except the mill in the corner. A Fiero will fit in there, but to pull the cradle, I will likely need to use the whole bay and have the Fiero sitting at an angle. I soooooooo want to expand the tool bay, but need to get it past the HOA (limited to 3 car garage attached to the house). What I would like to do is tear down the tool bay, shift it back about 8' so it can be 16' wide, then make it 30' deep, and on the back of it make a large "rec room" (with dual door access to the garage that a Fiero will fit past) that I can use as my tool bay and leave the 3rd bay for work. This would still only allow 3 cars in the "garage", but a 4th project car in the tool bay, and improve my driveway parking... just dreaming of the garage mahal....

This compressor dryer project did use 80' of 3/4" tubing. 40' in the prison door and 40' with the routing of the drops in the bays. I have a couple of burnt fingertips from all the soldered connections, and I was amazed that the used propane bottle lasted the entire project.

24 hrs and the tank and pipes are still holding 90 psi... I think it is good.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-05-2017 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I picked up a Pontiac accessory storage bag several weeks back and started working on making it a tool kit for the LS4/F40 Fiero.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/097633.html

Here are all the tools and stuff in the bag so far:



After what seams like forever... my European/Diesel F40 is in the USA and at the Indianapolis facility. I should be able to pick it up at a Fed Ex location in Champaign on Monday evening!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-05-2017).]

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Bob2112
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Report this Post08-05-2017 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bob2112Send a Private Message to Bob2112Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Please post pics and as much details as you have time for of the gear swap on the F40!

Also, just notice that Spec sells the LS4/F40 clutch and flywheel now thanks to the note on your webpage. Do you know how they compare to the flywheel you designed and the spec clutch set you sourced for this build?

------------------
New Moon Rising - 1988 Black Formula
My Blue Heaven - 1965 Mustang Coupe

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-06-2017 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bob2112:

Please post pics and as much details as you have time for of the gear swap on the F40!

Also, just notice that Spec sells the LS4/F40 clutch and flywheel now thanks to the note on your webpage. Do you know how they compare to the flywheel you designed and the spec clutch set you sourced for this build?



One of my customers is using the Spec flywheel and clutch setup. I had him check a few critical dimensions and all indications at that time were that it would work just fine.

The overall shape and style of the flywheel are similar, but the pressure plates are different. Spec had F40 flywheels for the 3800 and N* long before I made mine and the placement of the pressure plate fingers once installed looks like what they did for the 3800/F40 setup with the fingers extending past the pressure plate to take up some of the excess space. My setup doesn't do that.

Spec's LS4/F40 Flywheel:


Mine:


Spec's Clutch Disk:


Mine:


Spec's Pressure Plate:


Mine:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-06-2017).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-08-2017 08:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My new toy arrived from the UK. First thing I did was confirm 1.92 rotations of the input shaft for 1 rotation of the differential in 6th gear (vs. the 2.21 for the G6 F40). It is indeed the 3.09 final drive!

Some obvious differences from the G6 F40...
Bellhousing pattern is different.
Shifter setup uses a 2 bolt flange vs. the 3 bolt setup
HTOB connection is different
No VSS sensor
Reverse switch is in a different position
Differential bolt pattern on bellhousing side is different (looks like it has the bosses for the AWD setup)
Gearside of the differential has a lot more ribbing/reinforcement

Originally, I just wanted the swap the final drive to the G6 F40 case, but now I might have to explore swapping the gearside of the transmission case as well. To do that I will have to rework my rear transmission mount, shifter bracket, extend the reverse light wires, do "something" for the VSS and there might be some other issues with the mounting of the catch can and ecm. The extra ribbing might interfere with the cradle some as well.

Bellhousing:


Differential bolt bosses on the bellhousing side:



Ribbing on gear side of differential:



Shifter mounting flange:




Front side of transmission:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-08-2017).]

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Trinten
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Report this Post08-09-2017 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm going to ask 'the dumb question' -- is it impossible or more difficult to swap all the guts from one case into the other? I imagine the exterior changes were for getting it to work in UK chassis... but excluding the gear ratio, wouldn't all the internal dimensions of the cases be the same?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-09-2017 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

I'm going to ask 'the dumb question' -- is it impossible or more difficult to swap all the guts from one case into the other? I imagine the exterior changes were for getting it to work in UK chassis... but excluding the gear ratio, wouldn't all the internal dimensions of the cases be the same?


In theory you "should" be able to do a complete guts swap from one case to the other, but that needs to be verified to know for sure. The primary issue with that is that the guts swap would get you the 3.09 final drive, but it would also bring over an even crappier 1st gear.

To get the hybrid gear setup, I will have to tear down the input shaft, both intermediate shafts, and swap over the differential gear. That just gets the desired ratios. At that point it shouldn't matter which case I use, but GM changed the shifter setup to reduce the neutral rattle, and the later model case appears to be stronger. If I want these additional benefits, then I will need to do the additional work to use the later model gear side case.

code:

Trans Final Drive 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
G6 3.55 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62
MYJ 3.09 4.17 2.13 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62

Hybrid 3.09 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62


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Report this Post08-09-2017 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got it, so to use the old case and get all the ratios you want, it would be more work because of a more involved tear-down. And to your point, the new case may be much stronger (which I think makes sense, since AWD would be heavier shock loading, right?)

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Report this Post08-10-2017 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The amount of reinforcement on the differential is impressive. Looks very much like the Regal F40 housing .
For all the observers here, I currently have a few F40 transmissions from various applications to build this gear package (one day). This transmission is very popular still in European cars from Opel and Alfa Romeo, and was in the Buick Regal after GM cut Pontiac. Only the G6 version had the GM Metric V6 bell-housing though.

code:

FD from 2003 FM68: 3.91
1st from a 2006 MT2: 3.77 overall 14.74
2nd from 2006 MT2: 2.04 overall 7.67 split .54
3rd from 2007 MU9 1.37 overall 5.15 split .67
4th from 2007 MU9 1.05 overall 3.95 split .77
5th from 2007 MU9 0.85 overall 3.20 split .81
6th from 2006 MT2 0.62 overall 2.78 split .73


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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-12-2017 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The donor...


Open case halves:



Initial breakdown:



Disassembled:


The 3 key parts to the 3.091 (68/22) final drive swap. Upper Main Shaft, Lower Main Shaft, and Differential Gear.

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FieroWannaBe
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Report this Post08-12-2017 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Now looks like a great time for a wavetrac or quaife. Especially wuen going turbo.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-13-2017 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

Now looks like a great time for a wavetrac or quaife. Especially wuen going turbo.


A LSD isn't in the budget right now, but I did spend an hour figuring what the difference is between the F35 and F40 diffs as the F35 has an OBX LSD for about $335, but it would place the ring gear in the wrong position.

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Report this Post08-13-2017 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I started taking the G6 F40 apart and verified a few things. The ring gear for the 3.09 final drive is smaller than the 3.55 one, so I will need to move the VSS closer to the ring gear. The good thing is that there is extra material I can mill away on the case to move it in closer.

3.55 final drive:


3.09 final drive:


The case bolt patterns between the two transmissions are not the same. The 3.09 case has 2 extra bolts under the lower main shaft (bottom side of the transmission). The lower main shaft is for gears 1, 2, 5 & 6 so it sees the highest torque loads. I could probably drill the 2 missing holes and make a bolt on brace of something to pick them up on the other side.


Some slight clearancing would be needed for the clutch line bleeder assy to fit.


The differential bolt pattern on the bellhousing side is completely different. No 2 holes line up to the holes with the G6 case.


Some other pics of the two cases bolted together:



The outside of the gear side cases clearly shows additional reinforcing with the 3.09 case, but the same is also true on the inside as well:
3.55:

3.09:


The bellhousing side is also deeper on the 3.09 case than the 3.55.



I think for now, I am just going to swap the final drive gears into the G6 case. This will be the least amount of work (just need to mill down the VSS boss) and then the transmission would be plug & play with the one in my car. This would allow doing the trans swap over a weekend and be back driving the car to see how I like the setup before putting a lot more time and effort into the other upgrades.

I need to take a few more measurements before I disassemble the main shafts. I am also waiting on new bearings for the main shaft. The ones with the 3.09 main shafts were used and the bearings on the final drive end were destroyed in removal.

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Report this Post08-13-2017 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There was sufficient additional material as the VSS boss to mill away the needed amount to put the VSS at the same clearance to the 3.09 ring gear.




I also finished disassembling the 3.55 gear set:



If I wasn't waiting for the new bearings for the main shaft, I would already have the gear swap completed... My goal is to finish up the swap this week and swap the transmissions next weekend...

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Report this Post08-14-2017 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Are there crush sleeves for the differential bearings in these transmissions?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-14-2017 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

Are there crush sleeves for the differential bearings in these transmissions?


No crush sleeve anywhere in the transmission.

The differential does call for shims behind the outer bearing race on the bellhousing side to set the preload.

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Report this Post08-25-2017 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I moved most of the details of the F40 final drive swap to this thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/097738.html

ARP bolts on the 3.091 ring gear:


Main shafts and ring gear swapped and everything cleaned ready for installation:



Painted and nearly ready for installation:


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Report this Post08-26-2017 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I lost a few hours today making this engine support bar in preparation of removing the transmission. The brackets on the side have a bolt that locks into a hole in the strut tower and there is a leg on the other end that rests on the upper frame rail. The cross bar bolts to these side brackets and once tight everything is locked into place. I wrapped several areas of the side brackets with 5 wraps of electrical tape to help reduce chances of scratching the paint.




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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-27-2017 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Out with the old and in with the new:


The 3.09 final drive transmission is now bolted to the LS4, but I still have a lot of things to hook back up. I am hoping to have the car back running after work on Monday or Tuesday. One of the things I have to address is the DS tripod doesn't want to come out of the old transmission. I have known about this issue since the initial install, but never really needed to fix it... until now.

I am going to split the case, remove all the ring gear bolts, then I can separate the rear differential (it is 2 parts). Then I should have direct access to the tripod snap ring and can compress it enough to let the tripod come out.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-27-2017).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-29-2017 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The LS4/F40 Fiero is back up and running and so far I am liking the 3.09 final drive. 1st gear is much nicer and I can still cruise at 55 mph at 1480 rpm in 6th gear. Probably won't be able to use 6th much lower (I used to cruise in 6th in town at 40 mph). I still need to align the car, change the speedo values in the tune, drive it a lot more, and get it on the interstate for some fuel economy numbers.

While the cradle was out, I took the time to bend some 3/16" wire to the shape of the truck panels as well as the shape of the frame rails on both sides. I still need to transfer these wires to another bracket so the bar won't be in the way. Then I can play around some more with the turbo placement some more.



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Report this Post09-10-2017 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Been playing around with turbo mockup. Not sure if this is where it will end up as it would require relocating the sway bar, and could potentially be in the way for the AWD transfer case too... It is a snug fit but doesn't require any trunk mods.



I am also torn on the exhaust manifolds. I think before it is all said and done, I will have nearly every LS(x) manifold here. I already have LS4, LS7, truck, and just added LS1 C5 and have the LS6 C5 manifolds on their way. The LS1 C5 manifold is shown below. If I use it, I will cut it off above the O2 sensor bung and have it dump to the bottom.


Here is a sample off the other C5 exhaust manifold. They are cast, have factory heat shields, and are supposed to have smaller primaries that should help spool.


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