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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1262 (99042 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 09-10-2017 09:04 PM
fieroguru
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Report this Post09-15-2014 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Its Paul. bmwguru is Dave.

The blue is a Ford/New Holland blue.

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Report this Post09-15-2014 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogtlt1Click Here to Email fierogtlt1Send a Private Message to fierogtlt1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks....sorry for the mix up.

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Report this Post09-16-2014 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That Ball joint was kind of scary! Nice work on the front end - it looks great. One tip when burning out the bushings - place a bucket with water under the bushing - requires you to hold the torch but all the burning / melting rubber gets captured in the bucket - fire extinguished and is an easy clean up.

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Report this Post09-17-2014 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by katatak:

That Ball joint was kind of scary! Nice work on the front end - it looks great. One tip when burning out the bushings - place a bucket with water under the bushing - requires you to hold the torch but all the burning / melting rubber gets captured in the bucket - fire extinguished and is an easy clean up.


Use a large catch pan for a water heater instead, and you can avoid having to hold the torch too.

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Report this Post09-17-2014 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jims88Send a Private Message to Jims88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Front end rebuild turned out NICE!
Cool trick; pushing out those front wheel bearings! I will have to remember that one.

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Report this Post09-27-2014 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CTFieroGT87Click Here to Email CTFieroGT87Send a Private Message to CTFieroGT87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Car looks great guru. Awesome to see the F40 cable brackets are ready. Any eta on engine/trans brackets?

Also do you have an opinion on the GMPP LS376 harness swap kits (PN 19258267)? Mainly in terms of ease and simplicity.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post09-27-2014 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am working on the LS4/4T65E-HD mounts right now. Once those are done and I do a test fit, I am planning to switch over to the LS4/F40 mounts once I know the auto stuff fits.

As for the crate motor harness, if you want to run it on an LS4...
You will have to swap timing covers - the LS4 cam sensor is in the wrong location for all other LS(x) setups.
You will need to have a 07+ Gen 4 X58 engine.
The combo will need tuned.

The harness will be setup for the LS7 style MAF and a 6 wire LS3 TB, so to probably want to swap to those parts. Using the stock LS4 parts will require a connector swap and some jumper wires (8 wire TB unless it is an 08+ engine).
The harness will have dual O2's and the LS4 only has a provision for 1. So you will have to add an O2 bung so you have one per bank.
The TB, MAF, AC, ALT and starter will all be in the wrong location for the harness, so there will have to be quite a bit of rework to the harness.
There might be other connector mis-match issues as well.
The harness will need to be reworked to tie into the 203 and 500 connectors as well.

As you can, it would be a fair amount of work to use that harness, but reworking the stock harness is quite involved as well - especially it you swap lots of parts like I did.


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Report this Post09-27-2014 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

nice thing about modding a swap harness though, everything is new, and nothing is cut by some asshat at the junkyard.

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Report this Post09-30-2014 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
As for the crate motor harness, if you want to run it on an LS4...
You will have to swap timing covers - the LS4 cam sensor is in the wrong location for all other LS(x) setups.
You will need to have a 07+ Gen 4 X58 engine.
The combo will need tuned.


If you have a 24x engine, you can swap a few parts to get it to work with 58x. You can swap the whole crank, or the just the reluctor, and the sensor. You'll also need to change to a 4x cam gear and sensor, as the 24x engine has a 1x cam gear/sensor. It might be possible to use the LS4 timing cover, by just flashing the LS4 timing tables to the ECM, or reprogramming by adjusting the values for the different position.

But if you're going to do an LS4 swap, I would just start with an LS4 harness that you get with the dropout, if possible.

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Will
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Report this Post11-11-2014 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Did you ever get the DoD/AFM to work correctly?

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Report this Post11-11-2014 11:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Did you ever get the DoD/AFM to work correctly?


I think not: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../000123-24.html#p934

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-12-2014 08:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Did you ever get the DoD/AFM to work correctly?


Nope. The E67 ecm requires the BCM for the brake switch input and my swap doesn't have one.
DoD has been proven to work w/o the BCM, so my next LS4/F40 swap will use that ecm for further testing.

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Will
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Report this Post11-17-2014 12:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Nope. The E67 ecm requires the BCM for the brake switch input and my swap doesn't have one.
DoD has been proven to work w/o the BCM, so my next LS4/F40 swap will use that ecm for further testing.


The E67 is the 58x ECM... and you want to try the 24x ECM on your next one?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-17-2014 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The E67 is the 58x ECM... and you want to try the 24x ECM on your next one?


Yes. I am doing an E40/24X LS4/F40 and an E67/58X LS4/4T65E-hd... or at least I had started them before I got relocated. Eventually I will get back to them.

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Report this Post11-17-2014 06:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Yes. I am doing an E40/24X LS4/F40 and an E67/58X LS4/4T65E-hd... or at least I had started them before I got relocated. Eventually I will get back to them.


wow, I never realized there was a 24x ECM other than the 0411 style. thanks for posting that.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-18-2014 08:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
wow, I never realized there was a 24x ECM other than the 0411 style. thanks for posting that.


There are several 24x ecms for the LS(x) family. The 0411 and similar (blue/red connector style) styles are drive by cable only and have transmission control built in. There are some that look similar to the 0411 (internal transmission control) that have blue/green connectors that are DBW, but require a TAC module to control the pedal. Then there are some (like the E40) that are small in size, control the DBW pedal directly, and have an external TCM.

Both the E40 (05 & 06) and E67 (07+) are factory ECMs on the LS4s and are both have direct DBW control and have AFM/DoD capabilities. The E67 needs the BCM for cruise, case learn, or for DoD to work, and it uses coefficient equations instead of a VE table so tuning the VE size isn't as precise. The E40 doesn't have any of these drawbacks.

My E67 LS4/F40 swap will likely get a camshaft swap and remove DoD as its the next upgrade.

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Report this Post11-20-2014 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Can an E40 control a 6 cylinder engine?

Say, a 3900 with AFM/DOD, with the trigger wheel swapped from 58x to 24x.

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Report this Post11-20-2014 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Can an E40 control a 6 cylinder engine?

Say, a 3900 with AFM/DOD, with the trigger wheel swapped from 58x to 24x.


I don't think you can, no. AFAICT, the E40 was never used on any of the V6 engines, and the High Value engines got the E67.

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Will
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Report this Post11-21-2014 12:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Doesn't mean the software isn't hacked sufficiently to allw that change...

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-21-2014 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The E40 (and E67 for that matter) has a field where you enter the # of cylinders and individual cylinder volume. Who knows what happens if you set it to 6 cyl.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-21-2014).]

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Will
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Report this Post11-22-2014 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That's in HPTuners, right?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-23-2014 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

That's in HPTuners, right?


Yes.

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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

your work is awesome, Paul; as exhausted as that statement is, it is still sincerely meant. Thx for sharing; you have saved people countless hours of possibly unsolveable problems! Reach around and give yourself a big pat on the back!

I think it took longer for me to read it than for you to DO it; you work so quickly!

Several items:
Will you be listing any 'items' for this swap and if so, when do you think you might do that?
Having said the above - and with the caveat that most people won't have your problem-solving capability (no offense, anyone!) what do you think would be on that list?
I am hoping the flywheel and starter mount will be coming along and pls put me on the list for those items. I will need them. Others you offer will be a bonus.

My question is moving more toward the tuning/ECM side of things now - from my ignorant perception at the moment - what can be done about custom tuning to reflect what you have found out? Is this 'packageable' in any fashion?

Did you have any previous experience with HP Tuners, others or any ECM tuning? (kind of thinking no... ) how long did it take to climb the learning curve (days weeks months)? Was it intuitive? Is there a possibility of your getting involved in other's projects in this area?

Very curious about the mystery project; when do we find out what it is? ;-)

Thanks ongoing!
GP

[This message has been edited by 85-308 (edited 11-24-2014).]

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Report this Post12-08-2014 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

New shifter cable has been installed (same cable, no upgrade at this time) and the car is drivable again!

Now back to the SBC/F23 swap.



When you come up for air... just curious if there is any update on the flywheel or other special items that you developed for the LS4/F40 swap. I think you have a lot on your plate right now, so whenever!!

Great thread and an encylopedia set worth of knowledge! Thanks for sharing so much, especially those details that can take so long!

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fieroguru
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Report this Post12-09-2014 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks!

Not much has changed in regards to the relocation. I am still living in a 1 br apartment in IL and will be there until I buy a house. I have reviewed every available house within 35 miles of the plant that has the following criteria:
3 BR/2 BA
2000+ sq-ft or larger
Basement (wife doesn't like tornados)
2 car attached garage
1 acre lot
Outbuilding or ability to build an outbuilding

So far, there isn't a properly on the market that would work for my wife and I, so now we are just waiting for the right property to come on the market...

I haven't done anything Fiero related (besides drive the LS4/F40 car) since the end of October and don't think I will get back to any real work until March 2015 at the earliest. The update on my website says June, 2015, but I am hoping it happens much sooner than that. Once I find/buy the house, then the challenge is moving all the shop related equipment 300+ miles and getting it setup... all while moving the household stuff and getting it setup to my wife's standards. When I relocated from IL to KY in 2006, I had less shop equipment and didn't do anything but drive my Fiero for a little over a year. I am hoping it doesn't take that long this time... time will tell.

On the rare occasions I am back in KY, my priority is spending time with my family (they are staying in KY until we buy a house) and working to prep the house so we can list it in Feb 2015. I am not doing any Fiero work for customers until I have everything moved/relocated/setup in IL.

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Report this Post12-10-2014 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yup! You have a lot on your plate! Very understandable!
And getting the kids into a new school... always more fun; and oh, yeah - tornadoes! Moving is just SSOOOO much fun....
Thanks for the dates, it helps me plan and I have tons to do so you aren't exactly 'holding me up' in any way ;-)
Guess that 'dream shop' didn't work out - that's too bad! Would be the envy of every PFF viewer (me included) when you posted pix!!

Look forward to your updates on what you find for a new home - I'm sure it will reflect your attention to detail and be really nice. In the meantime an early Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you and yours; I hope you get a good break and can enjoy friends and family.
GP

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Report this Post01-12-2015 09:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The E40 (and E67 for that matter) has a field where you enter the # of cylinders and individual cylinder volume. Who knows what happens if you set it to 6 cyl.




Does the E40 have a "crank trigger resolution" flag or something similar which allows it to run with a 58x wheel?
Some of the late '90's V6 PCM's that Eric is looking at have a flag that sets the crank trigger interpretation to 3800 style, 60 degree 7x style or Shortstar 24x style... Just wondering about whether anything like that was retained in the E40.


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Report this Post01-12-2015 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Does the E40 have a "crank trigger resolution" flag or something similar which allows it to run with a 58x wheel?
Some of the late '90's V6 PCM's that Eric is looking at have a flag that sets the crank trigger interpretation to 3800 style, 60 degree 7x style or Shortstar 24x style... Just wondering about whether anything like that was retained in the E40.



There isn't one on the LS2 E40 calibrations, or if there is it isn't visible by HP Tuners. Every thread I have read about compatibility between 24x and 58x either says you must match the ECM to the engine or buy the Lingenfelter converter box http://www.lingenfelter.com...de=C163#.VLSS8FTnbDd

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Report this Post01-13-2015 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


There isn't one on the LS2 E40 calibrations, or if there is it isn't visible by HP Tuners. Every thread I have read about compatibility between 24x and 58x either says you must match the ECM to the engine or buy the Lingenfelter converter box http://www.lingenfelter.com...de=C163#.VLSS8FTnbDd


Ahh... ok. Thanks. I was wondering how "familial" the software was between the two systems and how much of the software library carried over. I guess not much.

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Report this Post01-13-2015 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Ahh... ok. Thanks. I was wondering how "familial" the software was between the two systems and how much of the software library carried over. I guess not much.


what year LS2's used the E40 and which were 24x/58x? I have some software that compares bin files on the code level that will tell us just how different they are.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand begger's change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post01-13-2015 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


what year LS2's used the E40 and which were 24x/58x? I have some software that compares bin files on the code level that will tell us just how different they are.




05-06 SSR and 06 TBSS were E40/24x, 07-08 TBSS LS2 were E67/58x
Corvette LS2 was E40/24x in 2005, went E38/58x in 2006 IIRC.
GTO LS2 was E40/24x (05-06)

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-13-2015).]

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Report this Post01-14-2015 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


05-06 SSR and 06 TBSS were E40/24x, 07-08 TBSS LS2 were E67/58x
Corvette LS2 was E40/24x in 2005, went E38/58x in 2006 IIRC.
GTO LS2 was E40/24x (05-06)



ok, I was under the impression the e40 controled both 24x and 58x engines, in that case I don't think analyzing the bin files will be of much use....

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand begger's change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post01-19-2015 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wiped out the rearend in my 97 K1500 w/ 251K miles this morning at 6:30 AM ish... I left it in IN getting repaired and picked up a rental.

So I took the LS4/F40 Fiero out for a spin this evening... I miss driving this car!

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Report this Post01-19-2015 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

oh man! Sorry to hear about the accident, at least you're okay!

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Report this Post01-20-2015 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Paul....I hope you are OK from the accident.

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Report this Post01-20-2015 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wiped out in that it broke?

It sucks paying too much to have something fixed that you can easily do yourself.

Are they going to swap it with a used one?

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Report this Post01-20-2015 09:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

No accident.

Ran the rear end out of gear lube, running 75 MPH with a dry differential starts making a whining sound. Was slowing down and trying to get to the next exit, but ended up stopping to check the fluid in the transmission - suspecting it for the sound. Once I did that, the ring/pinion gears pretty much welded themselves together and the truck wouldn't move any further. Its at a shop being fixed with all new parts inside the old housing. Will be about $1200 if both axle shafts need replaced.

It was a bad weekend for truck reliability. Friday night heading back to KY I threw the serpentine belt on the interstate, was able to coast up the exit and stop at a gas station before the engine was over 240 degrees. Bad bearing in the idler pulley, put the belt back on but with the bad bearing it tossed it within 30 seconds at idle. It was 7 PM on a Friday, so I had it towed to a parts store ($150), purchased a new pulley and belt. Used the tool kit in the truck to install the pulley and belt and get back on the road. Finally made it home at 1:30 AM Saturday morning.

Then left the house at 3:30 AM Monday heading back up to IL and broke down again about 30 minutes past Indy. Had it towed again to the shop where it is being fixed. Called for a rental at 8 AM, they were 15 miles away and couldn't pick me up till 11:30 AM... Finally made it to work at 1 PM (central).

Now the hassle will be taking the rental back and picking up the truck... I am hoping its done by Thursday/Friday.

I had checked the fluid in the rear end a couple of weeks ago and it was fine, but I am putting 750+ miles per week on the truck and many of those miles pulling a trailer with shop equipment or parts.

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dthami22
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Report this Post01-29-2015 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dthami22Click Here to Email dthami22Send a Private Message to dthami22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Can somebody please tell me how I can contact this guy or does anybody know who he is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLVwx3-Za0o

I have an F40 build that I would like to style similar to his with same headlights and wheels and tires. Can't figure out how to find out who he is..

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fieroguru
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Report this Post01-29-2015 06:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Comment on one of his videos and see if you can get him to respond.

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dthami22
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Report this Post01-29-2015 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dthami22Click Here to Email dthami22Send a Private Message to dthami22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

he doesnt respond to any comments on his youtube videos. sorry i posted this question in this forum. i thought it was an f40 build forum from the "f40" in the title

[This message has been edited by dthami22 (edited 01-31-2015).]

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