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LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru by fieroguru
Started on: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Replies: 1263 (100223 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 10-08-2017 05:47 PM
Pete Matos
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Report this Post06-25-2013 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Pete MatosSend a Private Message to Pete MatosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Guru,
Hey man that is looking real sweet. I can just imagine how it must haul ass with that motor and tranny combo. Looks like a great fun car to drive. I also am liking those sail panel windows, might have to get a set for my 85GT.... Good luck on the trip. Sadly I am not gonna make it up there the fiero just needs too much work and I am still trying to get things reliable on it. Peace

Pete

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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

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Trinten
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Report this Post06-25-2013 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow! Nearly 30 MPG?? And there was (some) stop and go? That's damn nice.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post06-29-2013 06:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Car met another goal today. Corner scale weights confirmed I met the 2850 lb weight target by a significant amount.
Total: 2807lb
LF 608 RF 609
LR 794 RR 796

I am pretty happy!

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GXP25
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Report this Post06-30-2013 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GXP25Send a Private Message to GXP25Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Congrats!

The car is nice and balanced too.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-04-2013 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I went and had the wheel balanced again. When I installed the 13" rotors and lateral link brackets, I had to remove some of the wheel weights.

I am scheduled for the chassis dyno on Saturday morning and 7K rpm in 4th will have the rear wheels spinning at about 150 mph. I figured it would be a good idea to get them balanced again before getting strapped to the dyno!

When I dyno'd the SBC/Getrag car, I stopped around 6200 rpm, so it only saw about 135 mph.

It would be great if this car has 100 hp more than my SBC/getrag, which would be 382 whp, but I will be happy with anything over 350 whp.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-04-2013).]

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Jims88
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Report this Post07-04-2013 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jims88Send a Private Message to Jims88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Good luck with your Dyno run!
I hope you it goes well for you, the numbers will be interesting.

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Pete Matos
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Report this Post07-04-2013 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Pete MatosSend a Private Message to Pete MatosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Guru,
Hey man glad to hear you are getting ready to dyno tune that baby. Good luck with it. I sincerely hope it turns out to be everything you hoped it would be. If you ever drive that bad boy down into TN my neck of the woods gimme a shout I'd love to see it in person. Peace

Pete

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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-06-2013 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Put the car on a DynoJet Dyno today!

Improvements vs. the Ramjet SBC/Getrag:
100 more hp
100+ lbs less (2807 total car weight vs. 2960)
7 mpg better on the interstate - 29 mpg @ 70-75 in V8 mode
And the power band of a DOHC engine!

Yeah, I am pretty pleased with this swap!

382 wph @ about 6600 rpm


List of mods:
5.3L LS4 - stock heads and lower end
224/232 New Era DoD camshaft with pushrods/springs
Stock LS2 intake, injectors, Throttle body
Stock LS7 MAF and exhaust manifolds
4" cold air intake
Magnaflow 3" in dual 2.5 out exhaust

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Trinten
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Report this Post07-06-2013 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Damn that's nice man! Very nice for stock heads/internals (excluding cam, which can play a big part in power).

I hope you're able to get the D.O.D. working, your MPG is going to be really nice then.

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ghost187x
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Report this Post07-06-2013 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

wow not bad !

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diabloroadster
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Report this Post07-06-2013 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

that tq curve, or I should say almost flat line is really nice. just hops up there and stays in the 300-330ish for the whole ride.....
I bet that thing is a blast to drive!

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robiwon1
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Report this Post07-08-2013 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for robiwon1Send a Private Message to robiwon1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Paul, just read through your thread. Very nice work. Answered my own question on the passenger seat! Nice red GT by the way...

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-09-2013 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks guys! Not much new to report, the tank of gas with the dyno runs was 20mpg.

Not planning to do much else with the car for the balance of the year (except continue to tinker with getting DoD to work) as I want to enjoy it this summer and my garage will likely be full with another project in a few weeks.

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dobey
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Report this Post07-10-2013 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Thanks guys! Not much new to report, the tank of gas with the dyno runs was 20mpg.

Not planning to do much else with the car for the balance of the year (except continue to tinker with getting DoD to work) as I want to enjoy it this summer and my garage will likely be full with another project in a few weeks.


Glad to see it's running as well as it is, and made it to the 30th and back. How are you feeling about the reliability of your flywheel/clutch setup now?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-10-2013 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

How are you feeling about the reliability of your flywheel/clutch setup now?


I am pretty pleased with how the flywheel and clutch combo works. Now I need to work with Spec or some other flywheel mfg. to get some more made.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-12-2013 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have commented about the input shaft rattle that is common with the F40 before, but here is a video/sound clip of what it sounds like on my car. Needless to say, I keep my foot on the clutch pedal most of the time the car is idling:


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dobey
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Report this Post07-13-2013 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I am pretty pleased with how the flywheel and clutch combo works. Now I need to work with Spec or some other flywheel mfg. to get some more made.


Great. I'm looking forward to getting that flywheel.

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Will
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Report this Post07-19-2013 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Good results!

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Trinten
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Report this Post07-19-2013 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Damn! I just watched the video of the input shaft chatter... I didn't realize it was that extreme!

There isn't a good and/or easy solution to resolve that?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-19-2013 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Good results!


Thanks! Now I just need to focus on making the rest of the car not a basket case.


 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Damn! I just watched the video of the input shaft chatter... I didn't realize it was that extreme!

There isn't a good and/or easy solution to resolve that?


The "easy" thing is to just keep my foot on the clutch pedal. Don't really know what is rattling, so its hard to say what it would take to eliminate it. I might try filling the trans to the originally specified level or even adding a thicker transmission fluid... but that would likely hurt MPG's

I don't feel so bad about mine anymore. I was at Sonic in the drive in and could hear the input shaft rattle from the Cummins/Dodge truck in line behind me even if I released the clutch pedal! Now his was LOUD.

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Bozzie
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Report this Post07-20-2013 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BozzieClick Here to Email BozzieSend a Private Message to BozzieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Mine does the same thing. Had it Cyro'd and put back together tighter and it still does. Other than that no problem with it.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-20-2013 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Did some more refinement to the part throttle tune today... The camshaft is quite large for the 5.3L and my narrow band O2 sensor is further from the engine than stock, so while in closed loop I could "feel" the narrow band O2 sensor swing rich/lean. Reducing the Closed Loop Proportional by 90% helped it, but it was still there and quite annoying.

This pulsing with the narrow band O2 goes away when running open loop, so I switched back to 100% open loop. I did a couple of 100% OL MAF and 100% OL SD logs today just to make sure they are dialed in as close as possible (less than 1% error) and then combined them in a Dynamic OL tune. So under 4000 rpm, the ecm will be using both MAF and SD to determine fueling and then 100% MAF over 4000 RPM. While doing this, I didn't mess with anything in the WOT ranges since it was dialed in on the dyno. Car runs nice and smooth in open loop.

The added benefit of running 100% Open Loop is I can change the A/F ratio for various airflows. I am still trying to break 30mpg on the interstate and improve on the 20mpg for the last 3 tanks doing my daily commute. So during the log I recorded the Hz from the MAF at idle and 60-70 mph as well as the kPa/RPM on the speed density side. Then on the MAF calibration, I reduced everything under 4000Hz by 7% and also took 7% from the group of cells connecting Idle to cruise range in kPa/RPM (43-60kPa and 400 to 2400 RPM) . The adjacent cells were reduced 3.5% to smooth the transition back to 14.7. These changes now allow idle and cruising to be in the 15.5-15.9 A/F range and back to 14.7 to 15.0 when under moderate acceleration.

I will be monitoring the logs while using this modified open loop tune checking for knock and various temps. But so far it runs fine with this new tune on my normal test route.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-20-2013).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-21-2013 04:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

sig test

------------------
1988 Notchie: LS4/F40, 382 whp @ 6800 rpm, 325 wtq @ 5000 rpm, 2807 curb weight, 29 mpg 70-75 mph, 20 mpg on my daily commute. 4" CAI, LS7 MAF, LS2: TB, Intake, Injectors, 224/232 cam, E67 ECM, LS7 Exhaust manifolds, Magnaflow muffler, 12 lbs aluminum flywheel, 10" Spec stage 4+ clutch, 13" rotor conversion, rear lateral link relocation brackets, rod end lateral link upgrade, top of struts relocated 1" inboard, cut FJF front springs, Koni shocks up front, with 275 lbs/in rear coil overs.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-23-2013 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

In my quest to get DoD active, I went back to square one and listed the DoD Inhibitors (as specified in the service manual), then scanned for the actual data values at cruise RPM (where scanning was possible), compared thos values to the ones either in the DoD tables within the configuration file or the service manual. After doing all this and multiple brainstorming discussions with Darth Fiero... DoD still doesn't work.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Darth's theory at this point (and I agree with him) is that the BCM must be hooked up for DoD to work with the Gen 4 ECM's including the E67. The brake position switch goes through the BCM and this is believed to be the issue. There are only two LS4 swaps currently using the E67 (mine and the last one Darth did) and neither can perform a Case Learn nor will the electronic crusie control work. A review of the LS3 crate engine calibrations show the same issue with the P0315 code diabled (can't perform the case learn), as well as misfire detection, and no cruise control option. Even GM couldn't get the E67 to work 100% in a standalone condition.

The brake position switch status is the likely culprit as it must be seen by the ecm to perform a case learn and for cruise control to work. Since DoD also needs to shut off when the brake is pressed, it needs this input as well, and it likely uses the same input method as the cruise. The inhibit list includes a parameter "Engine Brake Torque Management" that must use a brake input of some kind. While this feature is disabled in the FWD DoD configuration, it still must use the brake switch to turn off V4 mode when the brake is pressed.

There is a 12V brake switch input directly to the ECM, but it appears the ECM doesn't use this input for anything, as both the E67 LS4's have this hooked up, but we still can't perform some of the other fucntions that require knowing the brake pedal is pressed.

So the next step is to go back to the additional controller to see if the brake switch can be routed through this new controller and share this info through the CAN line.

Another tidbit of info that isn't listed in the service manual, is on the Gen 4 ECM's, if Cat Over Temp (COT) is disabled in the calibration, DoD will not longer work. This has been proven through multiple sources where long tubes were added to a DoD vehicle, COT disabled, DoD stopped working, the customer went back to have COT enabled, then DoD worked again.

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Will
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Report this Post07-23-2013 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Do you have a photo showing how tight the LS4 crank pulley is to the timing cover? You don't know the pulley part number off hand, do you?

My dad's working on a 5.3 Datsun build. I think if we can get the accessory drive close enough to the engine to tuck behind the steering rack, we can move the engine back another 1"+

Right now it has the truck accessory drive, with an extended crank pulley that "straddles" the steering rack such that the belt is in front of the rack while the timing cover is behind it.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-23-2013).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-23-2013 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Part # is ACDELCO OE SERVICE 12635650 Harmonic Balancer. Cheapest place shipped to you is Rock Bottom Auto Parts on ebay. Shipped is $138.78. I just ordered a new one as mine has a wobble on it and I am fighting a slight belt chirp. If you go with this balancer, then you will likely have to go with an electric water pump or use the LS4 one (if it fits).

Here are a few pictures:


With a truck water pump:

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-25-2013 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The LS4/F40 fiero is a little jealous at the moment... another 400 hp V8 fiero is taking its spot in the garage.


Its a SBC/F23 GT with a carb. I will be doing a fuel injection installation (and more) over the next month or four.

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Jefrysuko
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Report this Post07-25-2013 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The LS4/F40 fiero is a little jealous at the moment... another 400 hp V8 fiero is taking its spot in the garage.


When are you going to build that workshop?

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-26-2013 07:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Jefrysuko:


When are you going to build that workshop?


Summer 2014. Here is a rough layout:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-26-2013).]

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zkhennings
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Report this Post07-26-2013 09:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Summer 2014. Here is a rough layout:




Jealous!

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-26-2013 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Summer 2014. Here is a rough layout:





Looks good, but if it is to scale, I would try to make the overall shop a little wider, at least 5 feet, it just looks tight to me.


------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 07-26-2013).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-26-2013 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Looks good, but if it is to scale, I would try to make the overall shop a little wider, at least 5 feet, it just looks tight to me.



It is to scale. Tight is relative... working out of a 2 car garage for the last 7 years... that's been tight. Here is my current setup, but there are 2 fieros in there right now with the metal table parallel with the mill.


Prior to my relocation to KY 7 years ago, I had a 24x60 pole barn with concrete floor and a 3000 sq-ft commercial building... that was too much space and I collected a bunch of crap. This new garage will be a huge improvement to my current setup, while fitting within the constraints of where I want to place it on the lot, as well within my budget. I also plan to add heat/AC to it in a few years, so having it "big enough" will help keep the utilities at a manageable level.

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Tom Slick
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Report this Post07-26-2013 11:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tom SlickClick Here to Email Tom SlickSend a Private Message to Tom SlickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I see two things missing from your new shop.
1. bathroom
2. my guest suite...lol

looks good, can't wait to visit.

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Report this Post07-27-2013 12:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Summer 2014. Here is a rough layout



Looks good, I see the LS4/F40 car has some lift time scheduled...

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-27-2013 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


It is to scale. Tight is relative... working out of a 2 car garage for the last 7 years... that's been tight. Here is my current setup, but there are 2 fieros in there right now with the metal table parallel with the mill.


Prior to my relocation to KY 7 years ago, I had a 24x60 pole barn with concrete floor and a 3000 sq-ft commercial building... that was too much space and I collected a bunch of crap. This new garage will be a huge improvement to my current setup, while fitting within the constraints of where I want to place it on the lot, as well within my budget. I also plan to add heat/AC to it in a few years, so having it "big enough" will help keep the utilities at a manageable level.


I see what you mean, and I've never had a shop that was "too big", my last "shop" was a 1.5 car garage full of crap. it looks well thought out, what materials are you planning to use?

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Report this Post07-27-2013 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Tom Slick:
I see two things missing from your new shop.
1. bathroom
2. my guest suite...lol


I don't see the beer fridge either...

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Report this Post07-27-2013 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The shop layout looks great! It would be cool if you could put the wall between the paint/clean room and the shop on wheels or make it so it couls be moved. The paint room looks a good size to paint a Fiero but if you was going to paint something like a pickup or something larger it might get a little tight. You could push the wall back toward the paint room when not it use and make the shop space bigger.

Just a thought.....

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-27-2013 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Tom Slick:
I see two things missing from your new shop.
1. bathroom
2. my guest suite...lol


I will likely put in a urinal and a wash sink. Anything more and its time to go to the house.
I am planning for there to be some loft space over the machine shop area for parts and a sleeping bag if you want to come up.

 
quote
Originally posted by Jefrysuko:
Looks good, I see the LS4/F40 car has some lift time scheduled...


The drawing was done last year when I purchased the house, and before the LS4/F40 car was running. I was hoping to build the garage in 2013, but that just wasn't in the cards with all the other expenses last year and early this year. Still on track for 2014 though.

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
it looks well thought out, what materials are you planning to use?


I am in a relatively nice subdivision with some community rules. One of them is that any additional structure is to be built with the same materials as the house and be 50' off the road (house is 75' off the road). There are other houses with pole barns, but mine will be about 55' from the road and don't want to press my luck. So it will be stick build with vinyl siding to match the house. The windows in the clean storage bay will be like the ones on the house to help tie everything together. I am planning 1" of concrete wall above the floor, then 10' walls.

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
I don't see the beer fridge either...


I have had 3 alcoholic beverages in my lifetime, and last year I gave up soda/pop. Water is about all I drink and I really don't care for it to be colder than what comes out of the tap... so no fridge.

 
quote
Originally posted by diabloroadster:

The shop layout looks great! It would be cool if you could put the wall between the paint/clean room and the shop on wheels or make it so it couls be moved. The paint room looks a good size to paint a Fiero but if you was going to paint something like a pickup or something larger it might get a little tight. You could push the wall back toward the paint room when not it use and make the shop space bigger.

Just a thought.....


The wall will likely be fixed as I would like to use the room above that bay for loft storage. I may add some more doors (like the machine shop bay has) to make it more accessible. But for 99% of the time, it will be the parking space for the LS4/F40 car. Part of the agreement with the new garage is my wife lays claim to the current attached 2 car garage for her car and all the girls bikes and other stuff. So my Fieros either have to be parked inside or sit in the driveway.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-27-2013 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ever consider pocket doors? they would free up a good bit of space for you.

------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Will
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Report this Post07-28-2013 12:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

ever consider pocket doors? they would free up a good bit of space for you.



I love pocket doors.

Try two multi-pass pocket setups between the main shop and the paint booth: http://www.johnsonhardware.com/mdindex.htm







To setups like that "back-to-back" would easily span the length of the paint booth. You wouldn't need to close the paint booth off from the rest of the shop unless you're ACTUALLY painting in it... makes for much more efficient use of space when you're not painting.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-28-2013).]

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