I'm curious if the customer is concerned about their personal safety with this vehicle in the event of an accident. You've had to cut away a lot of the front and rear frame as well as much of the roof. I also notice that the frame you've rebuilt out of square tubing is not bent at all, it is instead comprised of many, many joints. I don't doubt your guys know how to weld, it's just that I've always been taught that when building a roll cage or tube frame, you want to have as few joints as possible as they are weaker than uninterrupted tubing. I'm also concerned about the small tubing you've used for the A pillars, it doesn't look like it would support the weight of the car in the event of a roll over. Over all, the vehicle looks solid and will look good with the body on, I'm just concerned it won't be safe in an accident. Of course, if it's going to be a show car and rarely driven in the street, it's probably not a big deal, but if it's going to be driven out there with Sally Soccer Mom yakking on her cell phone while piloting her Suburban with her knee, it could be a serious risk.
I'm curious if the customer is concerned about their personal safety with this vehicle in the event of an accident. You've had to cut away a lot of the front and rear frame as well as much of the roof. I also notice that the frame you've rebuilt out of square tubing is not bent at all, it is instead comprised of many, many joints. I don't doubt your guys know how to weld, it's just that I've always been taught that when building a roll cage or tube frame, you want to have as few joints as possible as they are weaker than uninterrupted tubing. I'm also concerned about the small tubing you've used for the A pillars, it doesn't look like it would support the weight of the car in the event of a roll over. Over all, the vehicle looks solid and will look good with the body on, I'm just concerned it won't be safe in an accident. Of course, if it's going to be a show car and rarely driven in the street, it's probably not a big deal, but if it's going to be driven out there with Sally Soccer Mom yakking on her cell phone while piloting her Suburban with her knee, it could be a serious risk.
Your points are valid, but what you need to keep in mind is that this is a "replica/kitcar" and being that, this is the best reenforced one I have ever seen. If you want to be scared about safety go crawl under one of those Lambo kitcars on ebay (not all of them, some are very nice) they have almost all the frame cut away and most builders put little to no solid reenforcements under there. Archie and his team have done a excellent job on this car, and it will be safer then most other kits out there. Also I'm sure this car will not be an everyday driver, and likely will never see any kind of accident.
Wasen't that one of the main reason why the owner took it to Archie's? The guys over the great pond didn't do a very good job at reinforcing the kit and it flexed badly on prior Muira kits?
Your points are valid, but what you need to keep in mind is that this is a "replica/kitcar" and being that, this is the best reenforced one I have ever seen. If you want to be scared about safety go crawl under one of those Lambo kitcars on ebay (not all of them, some are very nice) they have almost all the frame cut away and most builders put little to no solid reenforcements under there. Archie and his team have done a excellent job on this car, and it will be safer then most other kits out there. Also I'm sure this car will not be an everyday driver, and likely will never see any kind of accident.
That's nice to hear, but it's the same as saying this run down old house is a-ok because it hasn't been condemned yet. The mere fact that other people are building unsafe cars doesn't make this one safe, just safer by comparison. However, in comparison to a stock Fiero spaceframe, it's probably not as safe. And again, if it's never going to see a city street, it's a moot point.
I'm curious if the customer is concerned about their personal safety with this vehicle in the event of an accident. You've had to cut away a lot of the front and rear frame as well as much of the roof. I also notice that the frame you've rebuilt out of square tubing is not bent at all, it is instead comprised of many, many joints. I don't doubt your guys know how to weld, it's just that I've always been taught that when building a roll cage or tube frame, you want to have as few joints as possible as they are weaker than uninterrupted tubing. I'm also concerned about the small tubing you've used for the A pillars, it doesn't look like it would support the weight of the car in the event of a roll over. Over all, the vehicle looks solid and will look good with the body on, I'm just concerned it won't be safe in an accident. Of course, if it's going to be a show car and rarely driven in the street, it's probably not a big deal, but if it's going to be driven out there with Sally Soccer Mom yakking on her cell phone while piloting her Suburban with her knee, it could be a serious risk.
I appreciate your concern however we're not really done with the steel work yet.
The customer sent it to us because he had seen the chassis work we had done with the GT40 we built & he felt that chassis would be a good base for building the Miura. The chassis on my GT40 was very stiff & strong with no flex.
The framework up inside the roof & "A" pillars is not ment to be a roll cage. It's there to help keep the shape of the roof & "A" pillars. Otherwise the roof & windshield would have no support.
He does intend on driving this not necessarly as a DD but it's not going to be a show only car.
In the rear, there are 2 arms coming out to form hinging points for the rear clip, that's where you see the angle joints. They're not finished yet but they're shaped the way they are to clear the exhaust & because there's going to be a trunk mounted in that area too.
Once we have most of the welding done we will be pulling the body off of the chassis. Then we're going to finish some steel work on parts of the chassis that we can't get to right now. Then the complete chassis is going to be sent out for powdercoating. I'll take some detailed pics of the chassis at that point & you can form an opinion based on those pics.
The chassis used on the Miura in the U.K. was known for a lot of flex. IMHO, that's why the Miura kits were never really very popular over there & that's why the customer didn't want to use one of those chassis.
Archie
edited to add....... The customer is a Fiero fan who's into Fieros. He's doing something to his Fiero that no one else has done, so he is one of us. & not some kit car guy looking for the cheapest way to build something.
A
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 05-13-2008).]
I appreciate your concern however we're not really done with the steel work yet.
The customer sent it to us because he had seen the chassis work we had done with the GT40 we built & he felt that chassis would be a good base for building the Miura. The chassis on my GT40 was very stiff & strong with no flex.
The framework up inside the roof & "A" pillars is not ment to be a roll cage. It's there to help keep the shape of the roof & "A" pillars. Otherwise the roof & windshield would have no support.
He does intend on driving this not necessarly as a DD but it's not going to be a show only car.
In the rear, there are 2 arms coming out to form hinging points for the rear clip, that's where you see the angle joints. They're not finished yet but they're shaped the way they are to clear the exhaust & because there's going to be a trunk mounted in that area too.
Once we have most of the welding done we will be pulling the body off of the chassis. Then we're going to finish some steel work on parts of the chassis that we can't get to right now. Then the complete chassis is going to be sent out for powdercoating. I'll take some detailed pics of the chassis at that point & you can form an opinion based on those pics.
The chassis used on the Miura in the U.K. was known for a lot of flex. IMHO, that's why the Miura kits were never really very popular over there & that's why the customer didn't want to use one of those chassis.
Archie
edited to add....... The customer is a Fiero fan who's into Fieros. He's doing something to his Fiero that no one else has done, so he is one of us. & not some kit car guy looking for the cheapest way to build something.
An all aluminum body went on this chassis. No Rollcage, just aluminum.
This was never a crashworthy car by today's standards and with the modifications we are doing to the Fiero chassis, it is vastly superior to the real thing which now can sell for a half a million dollars on up.
Jay Leno has two and drives the S model fairly regularly.
Tell your buddys that none of my hack jobs has fell apart yet.
Maybe they could actually read the thread before speculating about how it's going to turn out. Instead of just bashing without even reading to find facts.
Those idiots need to get a job so they one day can build a couple of cars to show us all how it's supposed to be done.
Until then they should get a life.
How's it feel hanging out with a bunch of wanna-bes?
An all aluminum body went on this chassis. No Rollcage, just aluminum.
This was never a crashworthy car by today's standards and with the modifications we are doing to the Fiero chassis, it is vastly superior to the real thing which now can sell for a half a million dollars on up.
Jay Leno has two and drives the S model fairly regularly.
Tell your buddys that none of my hack jobs has fell apart yet.
Maybe they could actually read the thread before speculating about how it's going to turn out. Instead of just bashing without even reading to find facts.
Those idiots need to get a job so they one day can build a couple of cars to show us all how it's supposed to be done.
Until then they should get a life.
How's it feel hanging out with a bunch of wanna-bes?
Archie
I agree. I think your chassis is simply beautiful. I love the area where the wipers were, it looks great! Don't let it bother you, this car is something amazing. When its done it will be a solid work of art.
Just a thought off topic, do you think you could put a V8 in one of my DeLoreans?
I also notice that the frame you've rebuilt out of square tubing is not bent at all, it is instead comprised of many, many joints. I don't doubt your guys know how to weld, it's just that I've always been taught that when building a roll cage or tube frame, you want to have as few joints as possible as they are weaker than uninterrupted tubing.
Looking at the pictures of the rear frame, I think it looks very strong. The strongest frame you can have is straight sections without any bends. Bends look nice but what happens to a bent section when you push on the ends (as in a crash); it bends in further. Look at the rectangular frame welded into the main Fiero frame. Looks like very good crash protection to me. If welding is done properly, in theory it is stronger than an uninterupted section since it is thicker where the weld is.
An all aluminum body went on this chassis. No Rollcage, just aluminum.
This was never a crashworthy car by today's standards and with the modifications we are doing to the Fiero chassis, it is vastly superior to the real thing which now can sell for a half a million dollars on up.
Jay Leno has two and drives the S model fairly regularly.
Tell your buddys that none of my hack jobs has fell apart yet.
Maybe they could actually read the thread before speculating about how it's going to turn out. Instead of just bashing without even reading to find facts.
Those idiots need to get a job so they one day can build a couple of cars to show us all how it's supposed to be done.
Until then they should get a life.
How's it feel hanging out with a bunch of wanna-bes?
Archie
the whole drivers compartment and doors of the muira are all steel only the front and rear hoods were aluminum skined over a steel framework
[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 05-14-2008).]
How can anyone use the term "wannabe" and be building a Muira(fiero) at the same time? I find that hilarious.
Archie do you act like this towards anyone that doesnt share the same opinion of you?
Oh the newbie's, if they would only do some research. Archie has been doing this longer than some of them have been on this earth. Looks good Archie. Have a Great Day Gary
An all aluminum body went on this chassis. No Rollcage, just aluminum.
This was never a crashworthy car by today's standards and with the modifications we are doing to the Fiero chassis, it is vastly superior to the real thing which now can sell for a half a million dollars on up.
Jay Leno has two and drives the S model fairly regularly.
Tell your buddys that none of my hack jobs has fell apart yet.
Maybe they could actually read the thread before speculating about how it's going to turn out. Instead of just bashing without even reading to find facts.
Those idiots need to get a job so they one day can build a couple of cars to show us all how it's supposed to be done.
Until then they should get a life.
How's it feel hanging out with a bunch of wanna-bes?
Archie
I assume you're talking to me, and I'll direct you back to what I've already said:
"That's nice to hear, but it's the same as saying this run down old house is a-ok because it hasn't been condemned yet. The mere fact that other people are building unsafe cars doesn't make this one safe, just safer by comparison. However, in comparison to a stock Fiero spaceframe, it's probably not as safe. And again, if it's never going to see a city street, it's a moot point."
The fact that it's better than the original doesn't automatically make it safe. You've compromised all of the Fiero's crumple zones and weakened the roof structure. I'm sure it will work fine for driving around, but I wouldn't want to be in a crash in it any more than I would want to be in a crash in a real Miura.
And you're a fine one to talk about wanna-be's as you build a knock-off Lamborghini out of an admittedly poor kit.
Oh the newbie's, if they would only do some research. Archie has been doing this longer than some of them have been on this earth. Looks good Archie. Have a Great Day Gary
And? I've been changing my oil longer than some people have been on the earth, but it doesn't make me an expert on the subject. On top of that, he only started doing chop tops a few years ago.
Oh the newbie's, if they would only do some research. Archie has been doing this longer than some of them have been on this earth.
Oh I see, since I am new to a Fiero forum I must be new to everything in life. Hilarity. I think fastback86 made a great point, I dont even have to add to it.
How can anyone use the term "wannabe" and be building a Muira(fiero) at the same time? I find that hilarious.
Archie do you act like this towards anyone that doesnt share the same opinion of you?
Nope, I save my comments for the dumb butts on RFT who exaggerate & mis-state the facts for the sole purpose of bashing someone.
The "wannabe"s are the those that haven't done anything towards giving the outside world a positve impression of the Fiero & only seek to tear down the Fiero image by throwing hate at those that can & do build innovative Fieros and are showing the Fiero hobby in a more positive light to the outside world.
quote
Originally posted by Fastback 86: On top of that, he only started doing chop tops a few years ago.
This is a great example of what I'm talking about.
He says "a few years", What's "a few" mean? 3 ?
It's actually been 10 years.
Just another example of RFT exaggeration of the facts to continue the hate. You see it everyday over there by people who don't care if what they say is accurate, they only care to spew more hate whatever it takes.
quote
Originally posted by Fastback 86: "That's nice to hear, but it's the same as saying this run down old house is a-ok because it hasn't been condemned yet. The mere fact that other people are building unsafe cars doesn't make this one safe, just safer by comparison. However, in comparison to a stock Fiero spaceframe, it's probably not as safe. And again, if it's never going to see a city street, it's a moot point."
The fact that it's better than the original doesn't automatically make it safe. You've compromised all of the Fiero's crumple zones and weakened the roof structure. I'm sure it will work fine for driving around, but I wouldn't want to be in a crash in it any more than I would want to be in a crash in a real Miura.
And you're a fine one to talk about wanna-be's as you build a knock-off Lamborghini out of an admittedly poor kit.
The customer who owns this car is a member of this Forum & has been reading this thread. Unlike some who only read the pictures & can't be troubled to read the text before making negative comments about this build or any other build for that matter.
The customer has all the information that's in this thread plus about 100 more of the build photos & he's satisfied that the build is going just fine.
So your objection is duly noted. I'm sure you won't be in this car if it ever crashes, so you won't have to worry.
You can come back beat your chest "IF" the car ever falls apart. Until then go back to RFT where you fit in so well.
Excuse me now while I open up a case of "Who really cares what you think".
You have to watch a 15 second commercial but these videos will teach you a lot about the Miura.
You can find more info on the 2 Miura's owned by Jay Leno in Leno's garage.....
How can anyone use the term "wannabe" and be building a Muira(fiero) at the same time? I find that hilarious.
I do, too...Isn't it great?
I'm SO glad Archie isn't one of those "professional" misfits who says an awful lot, but doesn't actually get anything done - like you guys would have him be.
No, Archie gets things done, and makes no apologies for it. The fact that he's been doing it longer than anyone else around, and does the best work out there, just happens to be a bonus.
Originally posted by Archie: Check it out, you might learn something.
Thanks for the links. Jay sure did explain allot about the engineering of the car especially the chassis. I liked his comment about the A-pillars "I just liked this period because design ruled everything...no extra thick thing here (pointing to A-pillar) in case you rolled over. If you roll over it's your fault and your an IDIOT"
Edit to correct the quote
[This message has been edited by Jefrysuko (edited 05-15-2008).]
This is a great example of what I'm talking about.
He says "a few years", What's "a few" mean? 3 ?
It's actually been 10 years.
Just another example of RFT exaggeration of the facts to continue the hate. You see it everyday over there by people who don't care if what they say is accurate, they only care to spew more hate whatever it takes.
You'll have to pardon me if I don't have the precise history of your company committed to memory, it's not a significant piece of information to me. I go to all the trouble to lay out serious concerns and the best you can do is quibble over the exact number of years you've been chopping tops?
quote
The customer who owns this car is a member of this Forum & has been reading this thread. Unlike some who only read the pictures & can't be troubled to read the text before making negative comments about this build or any other build for that matter.
The customer has all the information that's in this thread plus about 100 more of the build photos & he's satisfied that the build is going just fine.
So your objection is duly noted. I'm sure you won't be in this car if it ever crashes, so you won't have to worry.
You can come back beat your chest "IF" the car ever falls apart. Until then go back to RFT where you fit in so well.
Excuse me now while I open up a case of "Who really cares what you think".
You have to watch a 15 second commercial but these videos will teach you a lot about the Miura.
You can find more info on the 2 Miura's owned by Jay Leno in Leno's garage.....
What is it that makes you think that I want you to fail? I've made a point to compliment your work and offer constructive criticism along with my concerns and you accuse me of being an illiterate hater who's sole drive in life is to make up reasons to bash you. Why? Because I post on RFT? Oh no! Some one call the authorities! Guild by association has never been a valid argument. Read up on it, you might learn something. http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
I watched the videos, and I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. Basically, you just proved my points. Jay says in the videos that they're essentially unsafe cars in an accident, they had little structural rigidity and that they were only produced until the government instituted safety standards. Isn't that exactly what I've been saying? Congratulations, you've taken a very safe car and turned it into an unsafe one. I hope the owner never has to find out just how unsafe it's become. I also found it rather ironic that the 15 second commercial was one extolling the 137 safety features of the Saturn Vue. You're still falling back on the same flawed argument that because the original car was unsafe, it's ok to make this car unsafe. Two wrongs don't make a right.
So thank you for wasting a lot of time. I believe I said in my original post that "if it's going to be a show car and rarely driven in the street, it's probably not a big deal." I even clarified it in my next post by saying that "it's a moot point," so I'm really wondering why we're having this conversation. I was just curious if the owner was concerned about crash safety. You responded with a nice, professional answer and I accepted it and all was well. Then, you decided you needed to take ambiguous pot shots at me for some reason. To what end? What are you trying to prove? That I post on RFT? Big deal, lots of people do. As you said, I won't have to worry if the car is ever in an accident, so why are you so concerned with my safety questions? Is it because you don't have good answers for them, or is it because you've become so hyper sensitive about RFT trolls that you go straight into attack mode when someone has questions about your work? Excuse me for worrying about your customer's safety, I didn't realize how little you cared about it yourself.
Productivity and recklessness don't go well together. I'd hate to be in that car should it flip. But then again there are cars that are just as hazardous, such as convertibles.
OK, meat and potaters time...Are you a structural engineer? How many vehicular chassis have you personally designed and/or built? Are you intimately familiar with Archie's modifications on this project?
Yes, what we're getting to is: other than your gut feeling, what makes you qualified to make that call?
The customer is a Fiero fan who's into Fieros. He's doing something to his Fiero that no one else has done, so he is one of us & not some kit car guy looking for the cheapest way to build something.
Independence has been declared! Touché. Now back to the build.
------------------
"Don't be a troll, Declare your independence."
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-15-2008).]
You need to ask yourself; do you wish to be a productive member here, or are you only trying to stir things up?
If it's the latter, you need to go somewhere else.
Having an opinion that differs from Archie's many minions does not mean things are getting stirred up. Seriously anytime someone on this site doesnt like his work, or calls him out on something they get rated off the site(which is the dumbest thing to ever have on a forum). All the rating system means is "we dont like this person he doesnt agree with us, lets get rid of him and go back to living in a box".
If you guys dont like the posts over on RFT, its simple....STOP GOING OVER THERE.
Archie you cause your own trouble from what I have seen. I'm sure you will come back blasting me about how you been doing this 20+ years yaddayaddayadda, still doesnt matter since you act just like the people you are arguing with. Ever read your "comebacks" in your own post?
Some of the stuff your customers have done end up looking nice, but everyone here doesnt have to nutswing. Its a fiero internet forum, there shouldnt be an Archie Brigade that chooses who stays and who gets banned. Do you all PM each other to get the ban stick rolling or what?
Oh I see, since I am new to a Fiero forum I must be new to everything in life. Hilarity. I think fastback86 made a great point, I dont even have to add to it.
Once the question has been answered it is considered “rude” and "inconsiderate" to continue in the discussion, especially to the owner of the replica Muir, the person whom initiated the thread, and to those enjoying this thread.
quote
Originally posted by myfierogt:
If you guys dont like the posts over on RFT, its simple....STOP GOING OVER THERE.
The same could be asked of you, “If you want to continue in this argument, go to the Insurgent site and “declare your independence.”
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-15-2008).]
The same could be asked of you, “If you want to continue in this argument, go to the Insurgent site and “declare your independence.”
Oh I'm sorry, only people that give praise can comment in this thread. You are obviously biased when speaking about the person who happens to have your vehicles! Where is that David guy to offer his opinion.
Once the question has been answered it is considered “rude” and "inconsiderate" to continue in the discussion, especially to the owner of the replica Muir, the person whom initiated the thread, and to those enjoying this thread.
Do try to recall that I asked my question, received a response, and let the issue die. Archie was the one that decided to pick it back up and throw a few more shots at me.
If you guys dont like the posts over on RFT, its simple....STOP GOING OVER THERE.
My thoughts exactly, If you guys don't like the posts on PFF, it's simple...... STOP COMING OVER HERE.
In truth, if it wasn't for the build threads on PFF, you guys would have nothing to post about on RFT.
quote
Originally posted by myfierogt: Some of the stuff your customers have done end up looking nice, but everyone here doesnt have to nutswing. Its a fiero internet forum, there shouldnt be an Archie Brigade that chooses who stays and who gets banned. Do you all PM each other to get the ban stick rolling or what?
Actually, I've never exchanged PM's or EMails with anyone on PFF about voting negatives for anyone. You guys have earned every negative you've recieved one at a time.
So what was your previous screen name on PFF? You've only got 8 posts right now but you talk like you've been here for a while.
Archie
Now, if you don't mind, we'd like to get back to the build.
You guys can take your bashing back to the sewer where where it fits right in with everything else going on over there.
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