Relatively speaking, hiding one's head in the sand like an ostrich from what happening in the world is ironically funny coming from anyone with such strong opinions.
Yeah, don't you wish.
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
One should remember that the residents of Gaza elected HAMAS and thereby also represent the actions of HAMAS...
One should also remember that the last election the Palestinian people had was 17 years ago in 2006, basically a generation ago. Did the Palestinian people have any idea that once Hamas was elected, they'd never get an opportunity to throw the bastards out? Doubtful.
No argument from me that Hamas is not despicable. The Palestinian people themselves are all just pawns in this deadly game between power-hungry men with too much authority.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-31-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: Well, you have a sadistic streak then. No one at PFF is supporting what Hamas has done, so why the need to post images of brutality in this forum? There's no one here suggesting that what Hamas did was justified. This insistence on the "NEED" to post barbaric images at PFF is totally bogus.
As I said, there are people on this forum who have DIRECTLY voted for the people who have DIRECTLY funded the regime that is supporting these terrorist attacks. RayB has stated he's on Palestine's side.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick: Is there no distinction in your mind between a Palestinian family just trying to live their lives and the Hamas butchers who perpetrated the atrocities in Israel?
Your lack of understanding of the region, or how many of these people live, is clearly showing. The overwhelming vast majority of "palestinains" support Hamas. Like, I don't know how far back I need to go so that you understand. The entire region is based on tribes... tribes not unlike the 12 tribes that eventually made up the four dominant tribes of the Jewish religion. Tribes are the foundation of the middle east, and almost every population came from one. Most of them are either Kanaan, Hejaz, or even Kurdish. Those that aren't, aren't even of Arab backgrounds and are even from Jewish-tribes. Islam didn't even exist 1,000 years ago, yet they take on the name Palestine which was the name of the region during the Roman empire. They do this because they've been brainwashed. There are no "terrified Palestinian families" ... as a whole (more than 3/4ths) support Hamas in Palestine. And it's not like the IDF are going in there and blowing up residential areas... they're clearing out terrorist cells. Furthermore, these people are raised to believe that dying in support of Jihad actually rewards you in heaven. Unfortunately, it's not that Hamas is preventing people from leaving (though they are encouraging them to stay), these people are actually staying because they want to be martyred.
One of the reason why the middle east is always in so much turmoil, is because the majority of these tribes, and their people, do not even recognize the idea of borders. This was one of the major problems in Afghanistan, and why it's so easy to manipulate poor Arab populations... because they don't actually care (or have any real view of national pride). Which in itself is unbelievably hilarious... because there are more Palestine flags OUTSIDE of "Palestine" than there are actually in Palestine. It's become a political ideology in which really retarded leftists actually think this is a fight of white people against brown people. This is literally why all the Black Lives Matter and Communist-sympathetic leftists support Palestine.
The fact of the matter is, if the Israelis came in and killed all of the Hamas supporters, the "palestinian" people would actually be safer, and they'd even have more opportunities given to them. Democrats today... which... I can't even say "radical" Democrats because it's like almost half the party at this point, are literally supporting and advocating for a terrorist organization.
China and Russia could care less, but they're enjoying it and supporting them indirectly (politically) because it hurts the United States.
To add to this... this is what made Biden's horrible pull-out such a catastrophic failure of his making. We can argue whether or not we should have even been in there, but after 20 years... there was a whole new generation of people that actually started to have pride in their country. These are people WE RAISED to have pride in these British borders... and even though their elderly and the grown adults could have cared less... we were starting to see a change... and now all of that will be reversed. But the same problem remains in Palestine... it would take a generation or two of deprogramming.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-31-2023).]
Could have been any one of our sons or daughters at this festival. paraded around in the back of a truck broken and dying. Spit on and then cut apart. No regard for human life.
Should we just sit and wait for it to happen or support Israel in their stance that they are going to remove any possible way for them to do it again.
Look, I'd love to see every Hamas butcher dead... but this killing of thousands of Palestinian people is not going to solve anything. The cycle of hatred will just be perpetuated further. No, I don't know what the answer is. It's a freakin' horrible situation.
Yes, you do lack understanding. As I mentioned before, Hamas intentionally puts themselves within schools, hospitals, and high-density residential areas. The IDF drops leaflets telling people WHERE they plan to bomb and where they're going to strike... and the people stay there because they want to support Hamas.
... this is the result. These people are ideologically brainwashed.
The IDF drops leaflets telling people WHERE they plan to bomb and where they're going to strike...
And I suppose if that's actually the case, then for some absolutely obscure reason, the Hamas militants stay put?
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
...and the people stay there because they want to support Hamas.
Where the hell are they supposed to go??!! Are all two million of them going to check in at a Travelodge in some mystical safe zone? You actually think that these Palestinian civilians are willing to be blown to bits in order to "support" Hamas? I don't care how much you say you've traveled, you're totally out of touch with reality.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
These people are ideologically brainwashed.
Someone is "brainwashed". I don't know if it's necessarily them.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-31-2023).]
Look, I'd love to see every Hamas butcher dead... but this killing of thousands of Palestinian people is not going to solve anything. The cycle of hatred will just be perpetuated further. No, I don't know what the answer is. It's a freakin' horrible situation.
Israel gave 24 hours of warning on Oct 13th to evacuate Northern Gaza. This air strike was in Northern Gaza. How much warning did Hamas give before they launched their attack?
Frankly if I were given the choice between being blown up instantly by a bomb or kidnapped, raped, tortured, mutilated, killed and beheaded, I'll take the bomb. But I would not be there because when someone tells me I have 24 hours to leave before bombs start dropping, I leave.
How much warning did Hamas give before they launched their attack?
Actually, you bring up a very good point. The plan that the Hamas militants carried out wasn't created in a vacuum. There had to have been input from many sources, and it must've taken quite some time to plot out. How the hell did Israeli Intelligence not catch wind of this? Who's responsible for this humongous screw up? Could it be that the Israeli government has been embarrassed by their total lack of preparedness, and are now seeking retribution in order to save face? Is that why 8000+ Palestinian civilians have so far been killed?
What Hamas did was non-excusable. The killing of 1500 or so innocent Israeli citizens was barbaric. I hope each and everyone of those Hamas butchers rot in hell. But at some point, you've got to wonder... how many more civilians need to die to appease this Israeli retribution? Is 10,000 enough? 100,000 perhaps?
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: As I said, there are people on this forum who have DIRECTLY voted for the people who have DIRECTLY funded the regime that is supporting these terrorist attacks. RayB has stated he's on Palestine's side.
Your lack of understanding of the region, or how many of these people live, is clearly showing. The overwhelming vast majority of "palestinains" support Hamas. Like, I don't know how far back I need to go so that you understand. The entire region is based on tribes... tribes not unlike the 12 tribes that eventually made up the four dominant tribes of the Jewish religion. Tribes are the foundation of the middle east, and almost every population came from one. Most of them are either Kanaan, Hejaz, or even Kurdish. Those that aren't, aren't even of Arab backgrounds and are even from Jewish-tribes. Islam didn't even exist 1,000 years ago, yet they take on the name Palestine which was the name of the region during the Roman empire. They do this because they've been brainwashed. There are no "terrified Palestinian families" ... as a whole (more than 3/4ths) support Hamas in Palestine. And it's not like the IDF are going in there and blowing up residential areas... they're clearing out terrorist cells. Furthermore, these people are raised to believe that dying in support of Jihad actually rewards you in heaven. Unfortunately, it's not that Hamas is preventing people from leaving (though they are encouraging them to stay), these people are actually staying because they want to be martyred.
One of the reason why the middle east is always in so much turmoil, is because the majority of these tribes, and their people, do not even recognize the idea of borders. This was one of the major problems in Afghanistan, and why it's so easy to manipulate poor Arab populations... because they don't actually care (or have any real view of national pride). Which in itself is unbelievably hilarious... because there are more Palestine flags OUTSIDE of "Palestine" than there are actually in Palestine. It's become a political ideology in which really retarded leftists actually think this is a fight of white people against brown people. This is literally why all the Black Lives Matter and Communist-sympathetic leftists support Palestine.
The fact of the matter is, if the Israelis came in and killed all of the Hamas supporters, the "palestinian" people would actually be safer, and they'd even have more opportunities given to them. Democrats today... which... I can't even say "radical" Democrats because it's like almost half the party at this point, are literally supporting and advocating for a terrorist organization.
China and Russia could care less, but they're enjoying it and supporting them indirectly (politically) because it hurts the United States.
To add to this... this is what made Biden's horrible pull-out such a catastrophic failure of his making. We can argue whether or not we should have even been in there, but after 20 years... there was a whole new generation of people that actually started to have pride in their country. These are people WE RAISED to have pride in these British borders... and even though their elderly and the grown adults could have cared less... we were starting to see a change... and now all of that will be reversed. But the same problem remains in Palestine... it would take a generation or two of deprogramming.
he!! NO I never said I support any religious terror by anyone and I have no side in any religious war
I have said the zionist are state terrorists
and the arabs got a chit deal from the zionists
I am against the nut christians who want a rebuilt temple to advance the end times
and against my taxes funding the mess
one more time nobody is correct in this war both sides do evil
that is not support for anyone but a very common RWNJ idea unless one is 100% with them one must support everything they hate and fear
Hamas has adapted their tactics over the years. Yes, Israeli intelligence has been very good. They use a lot of signals intelligence and human intel. The details of this attack are far from complete but it is clear that Hamas has adapted their tactics to counter Israel's intel. Hamas only used their most trusted 1000 soldiers in the initial attack. They called up the rest after the attack was already in progress. They also had very strict rules on how they communicated. It was primarily by word of mouth. So no radio or Internet traffic to intercept. On the day of the attack, Hamas took out the nearest cel towers which the Israelis relied on to monitor the wall around Gaza. That blinded Israel to where the breaches in the wall were located which slowed down the response significantly. Everything added together gave Hamas 4-6 hours of free reign to rape, pillage and murder.
Israel has to be right 100% of the time to prevent these attacks. We see what happens when they are wrong just once.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yes, you do lack understanding. As I mentioned before, Hamas intentionally puts themselves within schools, hospitals, and high-density residential areas. The IDF drops leaflets telling people WHERE they plan to bomb and where they're going to strike... and the people stay there because they want to support Hamas.
... this is the result. These people are ideologically brainwashed.
as are you by the zionists
bombs are falling in the southern part the claimed safe part today
every one fighting is a religious NUT THAT ARE NO GOOD GUYS BOTH SIDE ARE KILLING FOR DELUSIONS
Someone is "brainwashed". I don't know if it's necessarily them.
As you now know, you were incorrect. I didn't feel like searching for a link (waste of time). But there's also leaflet drops, and there's more than simply that. But you can do the research if you want to... or you can believe what you want.
You know... it's funny. Democrats killed 380k Japanese civilians in an afternoon during WW2, and they don't bat an eye because the government told us this was a good thing that prevented more death. But the IDF destroys a building that's housing terrorists, with willing and complicit civilians who WANT to be martyred, and it's the worst thing in the world.
Where were your concerns when Joe Biden was pulling out of Afghanistan and the Taliban were running through the cities we abandoned and slaughtering the 10s of thousands of people that supported us? I know where you were... you were on here defending Joe Biden's decision, and blaming it all on Trump, even though it was 9 months after Biden had already become president. Now who's brainwashed?
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Originally posted by Patrick: Where the hell are they supposed to go??!! Are all two million of them going to check in at a Travelodge in some mystical safe zone?
Oddly enough, not a single other Arab nation wants to take them in. Not Jordan, not Egypt, not even Syria or Iran wants to take them in. But Joe Biden seems like he's discussed wanting to bring them to America. I think they should all come to Canada.
Originally posted by Patrick:Actually, you bring up a very good point. The plan that the Hamas militants carried out wasn't created in a vacuum. There had to have been input from many sources, and it must've taken quite some time to plot out. How the hell did Israeli Intelligence not catch wind of this? Who's responsible for this humongous screw up? Could it be that the Israeli government has been embarrassed by their total lack of preparedness, and are now seeking retribution in order to save face? Is that why 8000+ Palestinian civilians have so far been killed?
My personal opinion is that they knew this was going to happen, and allowed it to happen, to give them the authority to try to solve the problem once and for all. The Mossad is the best intelligence service in the world, so I doubt there was an intelligence failure.
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Originally posted by Patrick:What Hamas did was non-excusable. The killing of 1500 or so innocent Israeli citizens was barbaric. I hope each and everyone of those Hamas butchers rot in hell. But at some point, you've got to wonder... how many more civilians need to die to appease this Israeli retribution? Is 10,000 enough? 100,000 perhaps?
This is madness.
You keep repeating that sentence in the beginning, over and over... who are you trying to convince here that you care? I don't think anyone here believes you think the Jews deserved to die. But when someone gets attacked, they have the absolute right to do whatever they want. This is the "**** around, find out," concept that Millennials talk about on social media. I personally would not bat an eye at this point if Israel decided to completely take over the Gaza Strip. The "Palestinians," would be better off... both economically, and intellectually.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
It's as investment researcher, Stephen Moore said... "They know what they're doing."
... and that should not be interpreted to say that they're idiots, but that this is all totally intentional. We could cease the influx of migrants at the southern border immediately if they wanted to. But the Biden administration WANTS them here... and for that matter, many Republican organizations do too... they don't care what it does to the fabric of the country (the debt and stress it puts on our resources), they only look at it from the perspective of new voters (Democrats), and cheap labor (Republicans).
The only thing I can say, which is hilarious to me... is that radical leftists are so delusional, that they don't realize that South and Central Americans, and the people from the Caribbean, are all Catholic. Literally... South America is like 97% Catholic, and Central America is 95% Catholic. They seem to be oblivious to this, but good luck with that atheists...
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Where were [Patrick's] concerns when Joe Biden was pulling out of Afghanistan and the Taliban were running through the cities we abandoned and slaughtering the 10s of thousands of people that supported us?
I don't believe that is an accurate description of what was happening between the time that Biden took office and the final moment of the U.S. military withdrawal from Afghanistan. I don't think the Taliban were slaughtering people in Afghanistan on that scale—"10s of thousands"—or anything even close to that, during that period. Nor does it strike me as an accurate description of the situation in Afghanistan at any time after the final moment of the U.S. military withdrawal.
If you total up all the victims of retribution by the Taliban from the day that Biden took office, until this very moment, I guess it could add up to a number like 10,000 victims, but that is different from 82-T/A's description of it.
I believe that these remarks from 82-T/A are a RWNJ myth that circulates through chain emails, or social media and the like. Maybe it's just something that 82-T/A himself has imagined.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: My personal opinion is that [Israeli intelligence] knew [that the Hamas onslaught of October 7] was [being planned] and allowed it to happen...
You probably have one of those IR thermometers that you can just point at your forehead and get a temperature reading. Do it. You sound like someone with an alarmingly high fever that's literally "messing with their mind."
In the period leading up to October 7, Israel's military establishment was focused on the West Bank. That's where the IDF's forces were concentrated. The Netanyahu-led government had become complacent about the threat of a large-scale attack into Israel from Gaza. They overestimated the effectiveness of the surveillance and the other defensive technologies that they had in place along the border with Gaza. They underestimated the scale of what Hamas might attempt.
For political reasons and possibly even for straightforward budgetary reasons, the Netanyahu-led government did not want to call up enough reservists to plug the gaps in the IDF's defenses against Gaza... gaps that were created by the repositioning of IDF forces to the West Bank.
The civil and political turmoil in Israel over Netanyahu's efforts to reshape the judical branch of government in Israel was likely a contributing factor. There were rifts between the Netanyahu-led government and important persons and groups in Israel's military and security institutions. I think there is a widespread belief that this contributed to the Netanyahu-led government ignoring or downplaying some of the "alarm bells" about Gaza that were being sounded by Israel's military and security institutions. Trust had been undermined.
This is what it looks like when your body temperature is at or close to the 98.6°F standard.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-01-2023).]
Is that why 8000+ Palestinian civilians have so far been killed?
Accepting HAMAS information as truth? I'm skeptical of that number in that HAMAS has never been known to exaggerate. HAMAS's goal is to make Israel look like goons, killers of the innocent in the press and the eyes of the world. Apparently, you bought the story. I have no doubt some innocents will die in Gaza but, there's no way I'm buying the HAMAS line of BS. It's impossible to tell a dead terrorist from a dead innocent bystander once in a body bag.
What we do know is 1400 innocent Israelis were killed.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-01-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: The Palestinian people themselves are all just pawns in this deadly game between power-hungry men with too much authority.
?
Between ? Have you been taking rinselberg's meds ? Game ? Who are the differing power-hungry men ?
Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad: We Will Repeat The October 7 Attack, Time And Again, Until Israel Is Annihilated; We Are Victims – Everything We Do Is Justified
That is like being asked to give up your defenses.
The hostages? One truck of aid, fuel, or electricity per day, water per day, for three hostages, "" !
Personally, I believe that's a very generous offer. Much greater than I would offer and that would be based on hostages getting returned, all of them.
Food, electricity, medical supplies and water would only be allowed on those trucks and that's it. Fuel can be used in so many ways (to include as an explosive weapon that it would not be allowed).
The destruction of HAMAS and all of it's leadership must happen. Yes, another group of hell raisers will try to replace them but, Israel can address them as they become known. Those HAMAS Leaders that are hiding/living in other countries need to eat tainted pork or fall down a few flights of stairs (by accident of course).
HAMAS doesn't give a damn about the innocent getting killed. Although the Israelis shouldn't be attacking civilian targets, anyone in a free fire zone is a potential terrorist and therefore a target. It's reported that HAMAS has 300 or so miles of tunnels in Gaza, those tunnels would become underground swimming pools if it was up to me. No, I hold little hope those hostages will ever be released. Those tunnels would still be flooded with seawater. Difficult decisions by the Israeli leadership but, that's what comes with war.
Reference Iran, we need to take a much more aggressive stance as it pertains to Iran's proxy attacks. When our locations are attacked, those proxies need to pay a severe price. If, Iran wants to elevate issues, then we should kick there leadership and military back into the Stone Age.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-01-2023).]
...there's no way I'm buying the HAMAS line of BS.
What we do know is 1400 innocent Israelis were killed.
Interesting that you're completely willing to accept one side's figures, while at the same time totally dismissing the other side's.
How many Israeli jet strikes have there now been? Hundreds? Thousands? The image below shows the carnage from one jet strike. I doubt there's much need for anyone to exaggerate the fatality numbers of Palestinian civilians.
Interesting that you're completely willing to accept one side's figures, while at the same time totally dismissing the other side's.
How many Israeli jet strikes have there now been? Hundreds? Thousands? The image below shows the carnage from one jet strike. I doubt there's much need for anyone to exaggerate the fatality numbers of Palestinian civilians.
Your choice to believe whatever you wish. Their histories would show who is most likely to tell the truth.
BTW, that was one good hit on that tunnel..................... As I previously stated, it's impossible to know who a terrorist is verses an innocent civilian in a free fire zone. My advice to the civilians would be to exit Northern Gaza at whatever cost (as the Israelis have advised). The difference between dying as a shield or as a hostage isn't much different, you're still dead.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-01-2023).]
You (82-T/A) probably have one of those IR thermometers that you can just point at your forehead and get a temperature reading. Do it. You sound like someone with an alarmingly high fever that's literally "messing with their mind."
BTW, that was one good hit on that tunnel.....................
Completely ignoring the fact that there were multi-story inhabited homes covering that entire area... and you see humor in all this misery? Yeah, good times for all.
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Originally posted by blackrams:
My advice to the civilians would be to exit Northern Gaza at whatever cost (as the Israelis have advised).
Since the Israeli military issued the first of several instructions for civilians to evacuate north Gaza, hundreds of thousands of Gazans have moved to the south of the strip. But the south has continued to come under Israeli bombardment, leading the UN and other aid organisations to warn that nowhere in Gaza is safe for civilians.
Originally posted by Patrick: Completely ignoring the fact that there were multi-story inhabited homes covering that entire area...
You know that for a fact? I doubt it. They have been repeatedly warned to head south. If there's a verifiable target under a building, I would think the residents of that building would be aware and if they have any intelligence at all would evacuate the area. I have no problem with Israel taking it to HAMAS where they live, work and hide. BTW, I didn't expect you to appreciate my advice.
I'm curious, have you ever been in a war zone? Have you even served in Canada's military? If people were shooting at you or putting IEDs in your path, you might feel differently about what innocent is..............
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-01-2023).]
And it's been independently verified that there is no safety in the "south". Read the article.
My guess is they didn't move far enough south. Apparently you either didn't read my previous post or ignored it. Let me repeat my position, " I have no problem with Israel taking it to HAMAS where they live, work and hide." BTW, you also either didn't read all of the post or ignored my questions.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-01-2023).]
"How Years of Israeli Failures on Hamas Led to a Devastating Attack" Ronen Bergman, Mark Mazzetti and Maria Abi-Habib for the New York Times; October 29, 2023; updated October 31, 2023. https://www.nytimes.com/202...ce-hamas-attack.html
At the 13:03 mark, MSNBC anchor Alex Wagner starts a conversation with Mark Mazzetti, one of the New York Times reporters responsible for this in-depth report. https://youtu.be/GO2gCC91J9I?t=783
"How Years of Israeli Failures on Hamas Led to a Devastating Attack" Ronen Bergman, Mark Mazzetti and Maria Abi-Habib for the New York Times; October 29, 2023; updated October 31, 2023. https://www.nytimes.com/202...ce-hamas-attack.html
At the 13:03 mark, MSNBC anchor Alex Wagner starts a conversation with Mark Mazzetti, one of the New York Times reporters responsible for this in-depth report. https://youtu.be/GO2gCC91J9I?t=783
Air date: October 30, 2023.
Two sources with little credibility when it comes to not being biased.
Excerpt from the New York Times "How Years of Israeli Failures on Hamas Led to a Devastating Attack." Scroll back just a short ways in this thread to see where it first came into the discussion.
quote
It was 3 a.m. on Oct. 7, and Ronen Bar, the head of Israel’s domestic security service, still could not determine if what he was seeing was just another Hamas military exercise.
At the headquarters of his service, Shin Bet, officials had spent hours monitoring Hamas activity in the Gaza Strip, which was unusually active for the middle of the night. Israeli intelligence and national security officials, who had convinced themselves that Hamas had no interest in going to war, initially assumed it was just a nighttime exercise.
Their judgment that night might have been different had they been listening to traffic on the hand-held radios of Hamas militants. But Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, had stopped eavesdropping on those networks a year earlier because they saw it as a waste of effort.
As time passed that night, Mr. Bar thought that Hamas might attempt a small-scale assault. He discussed his concerns with Israel’s top generals and ordered the “Tequila” team—a group of elite counterterrorism forces—to deploy to Israel’s southern border.
Until nearly the start of the attack, nobody believed the situation was serious enough to wake up Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, according to three Israeli defense officials.
Within hours, the Tequila troops were embroiled in a battle with thousands of Hamas gunmen who penetrated Israel’s vaunted border fence, sped in trucks and on motorbikes into southern Israel and attacked villages and military bases.
The most powerful military force in the Middle East had not only completely underestimated the magnitude of the attack, it had totally failed in its intelligence-gathering efforts, mostly due to hubris and the mistaken assumption that Hamas was a threat contained.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-01-2023).]
Excerpt from the New York Times "How Years of Israeli Failures on Hamas Led to a Devastating Attack." Scroll back just a short ways in this thread to see where it first came into the discussion.
It would appear that you feel the Israelis are in error for reacting and going after HAMAS. I would ask how you would suggest the Israelis react and what would you have the IDF do?
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-01-2023).]
Originally posted by blackrams: It would appear that you feel the Israelis are in error for reacting and going after Hamas. I would ask how you would suggest the Israelis react and what would you have the IDF do?
I consider that report from the New York Times and the accompanying MSNBC video content as quality "background" material that is not available elsewhere.
I think back to 2000, when PLO chairman Yasser Arafat refused to sign on to what Dennis Ross called "the most favorable peace agreement ever offered to the Palestinians"—the Clinton administration-brokered Camp David Accords. I think it's all been downhill from there.
I don't like Netanyahu or his right-wing coalition, and I don't think that Netanyahu has done well for Israel during his extraordinarily long tenure.
But I don't see any practical alternative to what the IDF has undertaken, to date, since the Hamas-led atrocities of October 7.
In considering what I should say here, I availed myself of yet another "backgrounder." To wit:
I realize that few among us on this forum are online subscribers to the New York Times. I post the Internet page links mostly as a convenience for myself. Perhaps I will come back to this online book review farther down the road, as this online conversation grows to as yet unanticipated new "lengths."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-01-2023).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: I think back to 2000, when PLO chairman Yasser Arafat refused to sign on to what Dennis Ross called "the most favorable peace agreement ever offered to the Palestinians"—the Clinton administration-brokered Camp David Accords. I think it's all been downhill from there.
I should have said the "Clinton administration-brokered Camp David Accords Parameters," or more commonly, the "Clinton Parameters."
Dennis Ross, who has called the Clinton Parameters "the most favorable peace agreement ever offered to the Palestinians," has always put the blame squarely on PLO chairman Yasser Arafat's shoulders for Arafat's refusal to accept the Clinton Parameters. Arafat said that he wanted the negotiations to continue, to pursue changes to some of the Parameters.
Other views, however, have been articulated; to wit:
I don't care how much you say you've traveled, you're totally out of touch with reality.
" !
As I previously stated, it's impossible to know who a terrorist is verses an innocent civilian in a free fire zone. My advice to the civilians would be to exit Northern Gaza at whatever cost (as the Israelis have advised). The difference between dying as a shield or as a hostage isn't much different, you're still dead.
