Have you thought about reaching out to the Warmack brothers (the guys behind the new Trans Am cars) for guidance? Since they successfully obtained a license, maybe they can help advise you? You can reach them through www.transamdepot.com
how about working up a deal with the Fiero Store... they already have permission and you would not be competing with them as they don't sell lenses, Maybe go through them and pay them a bit over the royalty fee or give them a discount on some they could sell on there website.
[This message has been edited by fireboss (edited 12-29-2018).]
how about working up a deal with the Fiero Store... they already have permission and you would not be competing with them as they don't sell lenses, Maybe go through them and pay them a bit over the royalty fee or give them a discount on some they could sell on there website.
My team and I have explored and determined the best business plan to bring the lenses to production. Thank you for your input.
Have you thought about reaching out to the Warmack brothers (the guys behind the new Trans Am cars) for guidance? Since they successfully obtained a license, maybe they can help advise you? You can reach them through www.transamdepot.com
My team and I have worked out how to deal with GM in a way that best suits all involved. Thank you for your input.
This set is nearly perfect. But I can't wait to get the email saying they're ready. These will go into storage because there's not telling how brittle they are at 30+ years old.
This set is nearly perfect. But I can't wait to get the email saying they're ready. These will go into storage because there's not telling how brittle they are at 30+ years old.
Those ARE absolutely beautiful!!! When you put them into storage you need to make sure they are in a temperature controlled environment as (ultimately) the heat is what will damage the lamination. These Fieros really are beautiful cars.
This set is nearly perfect. But I can't wait to get the email saying they're ready. These will go into storage because there's not telling how brittle they are at 30+ years old.
I am willing to bet they are going to make you include the DOT info on the lens like on the originals. Not really a bad thing as is makes them more correct but does create more headaches for George.
The lens cover we are making--over all--is really quite simple but GM has made the project so complicated it is mind numbing. The DOT is actually laughingly simple and jut as useless and stupid--but that is another story. This process is all about liabilities and making as much money as possible and still have a carrot out there enough to keep the project moving forward. Obviously I have way too much capital in the project to do anything but continue pounding away. We believe the technical people who we are working with now will give us better direction. Sadly if we would have had these people on board two months ago we would be further ahead. Still, it is really out of our hands. Believe me, my contact at GM is well aware of my frustrations and the costs to me this delay is causing. Still, even with 14000 people less it is a big company and the wheels move slowly.
I know for most you need Pontiac on the lenses but why not get the customs and blanks going for cash flow.
That's a good question. Getting a cash flow would be good but our minimum order is for 1000 pairs of lenses. Now, I have only had 1 pre order for a clear lens and while I have had lots of interest in custom lenses we have have actually had NO orders.
So, what if we ordered P1 (Production 1) and for what ever reason GM--denighs my licence? I will be stuck with 998 clear Fiero lenses that I can't sell because GM is very well aware of the project and if they start seeing these out there they will know just where to come. And I will be in court and I will loose. There is also some confusion as to weather or not I can even make the part without permission. Now, I know you are going to say "Awwwww they will never know." That would be very foolish as I am an LLC and they can clean my shop out of all my shop's assets along with the tool and all propritary information and data.
Would you be willing to play games with a bevy of heavy duty lawyers for your assets? So, because I am not and it has been 30 years since these have been available anyway, I figure I need to do it right and not come face to face with big fat cat called GM!
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 01-16-2019).]
Speaking at length on the Phone with Keith, it is very clear he has his bases covered, and his, and us Fiero owners in his best interest. My call to him was to suggest something that may help, and that is something that they had talked about already, and put aside long ago. He was graciously thankful for the suggestion, but clearly had come up in discussions already.
He went into a lot of detail, and trust me, there are a LOT of things behind the scene that have been thoroughly thought out, and negotiations that are being worked on.
So basically all of the talk of "you should do this", "why not make it this way", "you can go around the system by......." has been thought of, and covered from many angles.
Unfortunately, as he said it is now in GM's hands, and the time schedule, their percentage, approval and everything else for the most part is in their hands. Keith is working feverishly with GM, and doing everything the proper way to cover himself, his team, his assets as well as get a product out to us.
I hope the one set of clears is me.. I am pretty sure I asked for a set. Hey George am I the one?? If not hit me with a PM so I can figure out what I requested. Not that you need me to tell ya but keep at em, there are many itching to get hold of these and again thanks for putting up with the BS to get these done.
The bottom line is that GM (even though they have zero interest in the Fiero) wants a piece of the action... PERIOD!
This all started years ago when GM abandoned any thought about supplying parts for older GM models. In came the repop companies to fill a much needed void. GM saw the millions of dollars the repop companies were taking in and started a massive lawsuit against the repop industry. GM still never had an interest in the parts or the cars but definitely had an interest in a piece of the pie that the repop industry was raking in. The repop industry and GM came to a compromise. GM gets a piece of the repop industry action and GM gives the repop industry their blessing and that is where the "General Motors Restoration Parts" label name came to be.
The bottom line is that GM (even though they have zero interest in the Fiero) wants a piece of the action... PERIOD!
This all started years ago when GM abandoned any thought about supplying parts for older GM models. In came the repop companies to fill a much needed void. GM saw the millions of dollars the repop companies were taking in and started a massive lawsuit against the repop industry. GM still never had an interest in the parts or the cars but definitely had an interest in a piece of the pie that the repop industry was raking in. The repop industry and GM came to a compromise. GM gets a piece of the repop industry action and GM gives the repop industry their blessing and that is where the "General Motors Restoration Parts" label name came to be.
The bottom line.... It's all about the money.
I think you have it about right. GM is getting a sizable chunk of my profits, has no risk and pure profit. GM is also making me pair THEIR administrative costs. BUT what ya gonna do huh?
I think you have it about right. GM is getting a sizable chunk of my profits, has no risk and pure profit. GM is also making me pair THEIR administrative costs. BUT what ya gonna do huh?
Capitalism at its best (worst). Rake in as much profit as you can until the vendor bleeds and not have any skin in the game at all. GM SUCKS!
Being a capitalist myself, I'd probably do the same.
I hope that GM realizes that you need to pay off your research, and tooling costs before you make a profit. Don't worry, you show me a system and I'll show you a way to beat it, but I won't explain that here.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I hope that GM realizes that you need to pay off your research, and tooling costs before you make a profit. Don't worry, you show me a system and I'll show you a way to beat it, but I won't explain that here.
GM doesn't give a **** what my investment capital is. They don't even care what my profit margin is. They want 20% of retail and a quota. Their contract is 20 pages long and there is not one consideration in the contract for me. Every paragraph in that contract is for their benefit. However, playing nice here could pay off in the future. They acf a bit bullish in the contract but I see where there might be some wiggle room as we move through the process and they get a feel for just hwat it takes to build this department and it just so happend to be this project. There are working with me though and -- for the most part after I threw a tantrum starting to put things together just like we are. It's all goinig to be an interesting story when it gets done.
I haven't been following along on this problem with GM, so I don't know if it has been suggested. Did you ask Fiero Store what they had to do, or their deal with GM, because I saw recently they started making the fastback GT side windows. Just a thought......
I haven't been following along on this problem with GM, so I don't know if it has been suggested. Did you ask Fiero Store what they had to do, or their deal with GM, because I saw recently they started making the fastback GT side windows. Just a thought......
God i hope this dosen't turn in to another Elio Motors lol. iv have been wating 6 yrs , why not sell the lenes for off road use only like all the china made ones are for GM toyota ford etc, how come they get away from all of the lawers an legal stuf? I think GM really hate the fiero
I remember back in the 90s VW an Porsche had a big law suit with all an anyone selling the parts that were not made from them , such as the VW bug hubcaps with the wolfsberg emblem on it or the VW / porsche emblem that was made in china / thailand. thank god i picked up a few sets from a VW store . when i went back in the store alot of the merchandise was gone , all around LA area , even now you cant buy parts for your NEW VW at autozone only dealer , it sucks
[This message has been edited by tazome (edited 01-18-2019).]
Manufacturers spend time and money defending their registered names regardless of the direct financial losses or gains from the sale of authorized products. Vehicle manufacturers accept liability risks inherent with their products. Substantial lawsuits and payouts sometimes result from product failures. Lawyers pursue the deepest pockets that can be associated in any way with the product. If an unauthorized product fails that displays a trademarked name or identification, the manufacturer may be found culpable simply for not taking action to prevent the use of the name. Patent and trademark protection effectiveness is based on the owners' efforts to control use and prosecute offenders. Sometimes even similar names or symbols are successfully prosecuted. Taillight lenses probably present minimal legal liability risk, but juries can be generous with the fortunes of large corporations, hence the seemingly unreasonable efforts to control the use of registered names. I suspect GM doesn't anticipate their compensation will offset the expenses of authorizing the production of the lenses. The system of 'interference' is a deterrent to the proliferation of unauthorized products that may be linked to the parent organization. Where is the line drawn? In the sand...
On the other hand, a "manufacturer's authorized" designation can be a positive attribute in the market; it can elevate the perception of the level of quality or fitness for purpose of the product.
Kudos to Mr. Ken Goodyear on a well executed effort; hopefully the market will make his efforts worthwhile. (Ownership-wise, I'm strictly a notchback aficionado, so I'm just a spectator.)
Manufacturers spend time and money defending their registered names regardless of the direct financial losses or gains from the sale of authorized products. Vehicle manufacturers accept liability risks inherent with their products. Substantial lawsuits and payouts sometimes result from product failures. Lawyers pursue the deepest pockets that can be associated in any way with the product. If an unauthorized product fails that displays a trademarked name or identification, the manufacturer may be found culpable simply for not taking action to prevent the use of the name. Patent and trademark protection effectiveness is based on the owners' efforts to control use and prosecute offenders. Sometimes even similar names or symbols are successfully prosecuted. Taillight lenses probably present minimal legal liability risk, but juries can be generous with the fortunes of large corporations, hence the seemingly unreasonable efforts to control the use of registered names. I suspect GM doesn't anticipate their compensation will offset the expenses of authorizing the production of the lenses. The system of 'interference' is a deterrent to the proliferation of unauthorized products that may be linked to the parent organization. Where is the line drawn? In the sand...
On the other hand, a "manufacturer's authorized" designation can be a positive attribute in the market; it can elevate the perception of the level of quality or fitness for purpose of the product.
Kudos to Mr. Ken Goodyear on a well executed effort; hopefully the market will make his efforts worthwhile. (Ownership-wise, I'm strictly a notchback aficionado, so I'm just a spectator.)
This is a GREAT explanation. Every word you have said is spot on and exactly what I have encountered. Thank you David!!!!
I find it amazing that some but not all aftermarket products of Fieros and many vehicles DO NOT have to be "GM" certified. Most if not all of the Fiero store products are not stamped GM at all as well as many other aftermarket parts available over the internet, like door switches, relays, etc. why is this any different? I would not have asked them in the first place. I restore many types of GM vehicles over the past few years and only occasionally are the parts marked GM certified. GM seems to pick and choose what items they care to be paid for depending on who knows what...
I find it amazing that some but not all aftermarket products of Fieros and many vehicles DO NOT have to be "GM" certified. Most if not all of the Fiero store products are not stamped GM at all as well as many other aftermarket parts available over the internet, like door switches, relays, etc. why is this any different? I would not have asked them in the first place. I restore many types of GM vehicles over the past few years and only occasionally are the parts marked GM certified. GM seems to pick and choose what items they care to be paid for depending on who knows what...
0) Go out to your GT and take a REAL CLOSE LOOK at your tail light covers and write down on a piece of paper what you see 1) Get on your favorite search engine and look up your basic copyright infringement law. 2) Put up a substantial investment into R&D and machining 3) Put your LLC on the line and with that all assets belonging to that LLC 4) Set back substantial funds for litigation 5) Find a place in Detroit to live because that is where the suit will be filed 6) Take a guess at who will be the last employees laid off from GM will be (hint: Lawyers!)
------------------ Goody
The beauty of a solution lies in its simplicity
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 02-05-2019).]
I find it amazing that some but not all aftermarket products of Fieros and many vehicles DO NOT have to be "GM" certified. Most if not all of the Fiero store products are not stamped GM at all as well as many other aftermarket parts available over the internet, like door switches, relays, etc. why is this any different? I would not have asked them in the first place. I restore many types of GM vehicles over the past few years and only occasionally are the parts marked GM certified. GM seems to pick and choose what items they care to be paid for depending on who knows what...
I think the biggest issue here is the use and production of the word "PONTIAC" more than anything else, along with some very important safety considerations. I do know that the name and probably the font is copywrite protected, and many will choose that as their preference. If I still had a GT, I know I would.
Tail lights, and lighting in general, are a big "safety" factor, and I admire Kgoodyear for going down the path he has chosen to be up front and responsible with his product. Once the approval is acquired, we all should feel good about the product we will be getting...….. ok, I don't have a Fiero anymore, but for the sake of everyone else and Kgoodyear, this will be huge!
As a courtesy, cut Keith some slack.... and poor little ole' George too!
I see so many negative posts in this thread lately. "I" would have done it this way, you are wrong you should have done it this way. You should not have told GM, that's not the way "I" would do it... You should not worry about the DOT regulations, do it "this way" and try to skirt the rules and copyright protection...........................................
There is a process to do something right. I for one, am GLAD that Keith and the team are doing this the RIGHT way. Sure there is litigation, contracts, delays and such, but that is expected when running a business. You do not just blindly make something with a company's trademarked name on it and HOPE that no one sues you, and takes everything you own.
I think it is WELL PROVEN now, that these tail lights are 100% real. There absolutely have been molds made, and multiple lenses pulled from those molds. I always err on the side of caution, and been a naysayer in the past myself. I wondered that actually when this project was announced by someone that I did not know in the Fiero community. Those doubts are completely gone now. I held these lenses in my hand at the 35th Aniv. show. Both the 3D printed VERY first prototype, to the T1's that were the first pulls from the molds. This cost Keith and his team a significant amount of money to travel to the show, book the hotel, and overnight in lenses from overseas.
I hope I am not sharing something that I shouldn't, but I have had the privilege of seeing some of the inner correspondence ongoing with GM. This is 100% legit, PERIOD. Most know that already, but just making it clear, that now that this is 100% legit, and real, that we can focus on getting getting these into our hands when this whole process is completed.
It has been over 15 years since these have been available, a bit of a delay now is not going to kill any of us. Plus the fact knowing that when they are completed, you can drive with a clear conscience knowing these are GM Certified & approved for placement on your vehicle.
Just 2 closing words. Be Patient
Just my 2¢ worth.... well maybe 50¢ reading back now
Originally posted by JohnWPB: ... I see so many negative posts in this thread lately. "I" would have done it this way, you are wrong you should have done it this way. You should not have told GM, that's not the way "I" would do it... You should not worry about the DOT regulations, do it "this way" and try to skirt the rules and copyright protection........................................... ...
I don't take those posts as negative. Maybe people are just trying - probably too hard - to help.
Since we are all fans of an orphaned car, from a now orphaned manufacturer, we've all become accustomed to improvising, brainstorming, and making do with whatever we can cobble together. We're not actually accustomed to dealing with anything resembling "the real deal". THIS is the real deal.
I have the utmost confidence in Keith's project. I haven't had much to say lately but I am, most certainly, still here.
I appreciate all your support. It is this support that keeps the team engaged in this project. We as always are doing our due diligence to bring you a safe, quality product at a fair price.
Start making complete clear and tinted sets. Let customers paint what ever they want. I worked for a company who made reproduction vintage Honda parts. We sold the parts without the honda logo on it, and sold a honda stencil also. I went through all the posts. I didn't see how much they would cost.
