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The narrative that the Capitol protest was a “deadly insurrection” is falling apart by 2.5
Started on: 04-16-2021 12:28 PM
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Last post by: Jake_Dragon on 09-21-2021 11:35 PM
2.5
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Report this Post07-28-2021 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:
...

That even after all this, a lot of Trump supporters still believe the election was stolen and want to excuse the behavior of those who stormed the capitol.



You seem to be talking about why, not what. But also time frames will matter, who "knows" what and when in your scenarios.

Politicians lie, yes all sides do, so does the media. I'm sure there are people who justify those who entered the capitol building. There are also those who justify the many many protestors who did not.

The narrative that the Capitol protest was a “deadly insurrection” is falling apart.
This is the thread title, and what the thread is originally about, and many subsequest reply posts on the first page.

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Report this Post07-28-2021 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
What should the January 6th incident at the U.S. Capitol be called?

A large majority (72%) of the American public feels “riot” is an appropriate descriptor. Over half (56%) say it is appropriate to refer to it as an “insurrection.” Just 33%, though, say calling it a “legitimate protest” is appropriate.

“Riot” receives the most cross-partisan approval – 87% of Democrats, 67% of independents, and 62% of Republicans say the word is an apt description – but there is a wide gap for applying “insurrection” to the event – ranging from 85% of Democrats to 48% of independents and just 33% of Republicans who feel the term is appropriate.

Conversely, 47% of Republicans and 39% of independents would call the incident a “legitimate protest,” although only 13% of Democrats accept that characterization.

Monmouth University Polling Institute; June 17, 2021.
https://www.monmouth.edu/po...mouthpoll_us_061721/

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-28-2021).]

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quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

Monmouth University Polling Institute; June 17, 2021.
https://www.monmouth.edu/po...mouthpoll_us_061721/


Words have specific meanings, definitions which can be found in various dictionaries. They are not subject to public opinion polls.

Tens of thousands attended a rally, a "legitimate protest".
A few hundred participated in a "riot", with injury and destruction of property.
No one committed "insurrection".

Polls suggest that many Americans believe Joe Biden is incompetent. That does not make it so.

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Report this Post07-28-2021 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


You seem to be talking about why, not what. But also time frames will matter, who "knows" what and when in your scenarios.

Politicians lie, yes all sides do, so does the media. I'm sure there are people who justify those who entered the capitol building. There are also those who justify the many many protestors who did not.

The narrative that the Capitol protest was a “deadly insurrection” is falling apart.
This is the thread title, and what the thread is originally about, and many subsequest reply posts on the first page.


We've established why they were there, they didn't accept the results of the election; ie "stop the steal".
So let's take your words, "deadly insurrection"
So you don't have to waste your time excusing all five deaths, we'll go with the easy one. Ashli Babbit is dead, ergo deadly. You can't argue that.

Only word left is "insurrection". . . from the meriam webster "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"

They were rebelling (ie revolting) against the lawfully establish government. They didn't want the election results certified, aka "stop the steal". When Pence did certify, they then called for his head. They did so forcibly, beating officers ruthlessly for their cause.

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Report this Post07-28-2021 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

Only word left is "insurrection". . . from the meriam webster "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"


Using that definition, this was also an insurrection in the Capitol building.


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Report this Post07-28-2021 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

Words have specific meanings, definitions which can be found in various dictionaries. They are not subject to public opinion polls.

Tens of thousands attended a rally, a "legitimate protest".
A few hundred participated in a "riot", with injury and destruction of property.
No one committed "insurrection".

Polls suggest that many Americans believe Joe Biden is incompetent. That does not make it so.

"The narrative . . ."

That's how "2.5" set up this thread.

No one has yet been indicted on a charge of "Insurrection." I think it's unlikely that anyone will ever be indicted on a charge of "Insurrection." But I think the "narrative" is something else. The narrative is not defined or constrained by any of the exact legal considerations that are in play. The narrative is about what people think about it when they are not thinking like lawyers in court.
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Report this Post07-28-2021 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

"The narrative . . ."

The narrative is not defined or constrained by any of the exact legal considerations that are in play. The narrative is about what people think about it when they are not thinking like lawyers in court.



THAT is why you LEFTISTS absolutely LOVE narratives.

They are not defined or constrained.

Not defined or constrained by objective FACT

Not defined or constrained by REALITY


Not defined or constrained by TRUTH

The "narrative" is A story........It isn't THE story.

The narrative lives where LEFTISTS live:
In the realm of OPINIONS and FEELINGS.





 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

Words have specific meanings, definitions which can be found in various dictionaries. They are not subject to public opinion polls.



[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-28-2021).]

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Report this Post07-28-2021 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

You forget who you're talking with. -Most- Trumpers are capable of instantly rejecting reality. If it doesn't suit their narrative, they dismiss it. Trump has been nurturing this behavior forever, eg "Fake News!"

Most "Trumpers" are people like you and I who have opinions. Some express those opinions more effectively than others and most do not fit into a one size fits all box. Saying they ignore fact is simply just your opinion and not representative of fact. IF what you say is true, than millions of "Trumpers" would have been in town that day. Of the 30k estimated crowd (according to some sources) less than 600 were charged with a crime. Some people say up to 2,000 showed up to riot? If this is true your "most Trumpers" is WAY off because of the 10's of millions that voted for him only 500 or so got charged for being incredibly stupid.
It's this type of exaggeration that takes away credibility.
 
quote

It's literally on camera of officers getting beaten. . . "meh, that's peaceful protest!"

Nobody said it was just a peaceful protest, at least not that I am aware of. Randye has said "mostly peaceful" because that is the exact language used by the mainstream media to describe antifa blm " protests". We all know that blm antifa have been and still are a violent group.
 
quote

Officers are testifying what they dealt with. . "Oh, they're a bunch of liars!" Trumpers are "thin blue line" until they want to break the law without consequences, then it's "**** the cops!" It's the same way they're "Pro-military" until tons of military top brass speak out against trumps temperament. . . then "**** those traitors!." It shows their care of someone is directly linked to their political value.



I am sure you would agree that the vast majority of average Americans think bad cops are a blight on society and some, if not most would say "f-ck them". "Trumpers and leftist do have some things in common and some do take things to extremes.
I do not believe the testimony was honest, neutral or genuine. I believe it was scripted and coached long before this circus. I also believe the people selected were chosen because of political bias and motives.
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Report this Post07-28-2021 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


Only word left is "insurrection". . . from the meriam webster "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"

They were rebelling (ie revolting) against the lawfully establish government.



And THAT is where your sophomoric "splaining" and hyperbolic rhetoric completely falls apart.

Since you have a newfound fondness for dictionary definitions, by all means, let's go there:



Even you were able to properly ascertain and state for us that the motivation of the people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL rally that day was ,
"Stop The Steal" and that they desired that the certification of the November vote be forestalled.

 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

They didn't want the election results certified, aka "stop the steal".



I have neither seen nor heard any credible evidence that the people attending that day in January ever expressed a desire to renounce their allegiance to the United States OR any intent to "overthrow" the entire United States government.

IF you uniquely possess factual evidence to the contrary then present it.


What we DO know for a fact absolute is that DEMORATS hold the singular "distinction" of being THE political party of REVOLT, rebellion and insurrection in the United States. DEMORATS renounced allegiance to the United States and mounted a rebellion and insurrection that lasted for 4 years and cost millions of American lives.

It was a "little thing" called the American Civil War... Perhaps you might have heard of it?


 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


Ashli Babbit is dead, ergo deadly. You can't argue that.



It's always cute when Leftists try to tell people what they can and cannot discuss or debate.

Such attempts to control the narrative and frame the argument are always best ignored by rational people.

Reliable survivor accounts tell us that the ship's orchestra on the Titanic played on as the ship sank.

By your "reasoning" , we are justified in calling the sinking of the Titanic "musical".

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-29-2021).]

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Report this Post07-28-2021 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

Randye has said "mostly peaceful" because that is the exact language used by the mainstream media to describe antifa blm " protests". We all know that blm antifa have been and still are a violent group.



I say that it was a MOSTLY PEACEFUL event because IT WAS.

A very small percentage of the people attending the rally that day have been arrested and charged with a crime.

That percentage of people arrested is likely MUCH smaller than what I have been posting because, although there is very good reason to believe that the crowd was significantly larger that day, the only "official" estimate of the crowd comes from the National Park Service that only records that they "permitted" a gathering of 30,000 people on the mall that day.

Even using that "diminutive" 30,000 number it is obvious that only a tiny fraction of people have been arrested and charged with any crime, ergo the MOSTLY PEACEFUL description is accurate and apt.






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Report this Post07-28-2021 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


It's always cute when Leftists tell people what they can and cannot discuss or debate.

Such attempts to control the narrative and frame the argument are always best ignored by rational people.

Reliable survivor accounts tell us that the ship's orchestra on the Titanic played on as the ship sank.

By your "reasoning" , we are justified in calling the sinking of the Titanic "musical".



Ashli was killed on Jan 6 in the capitol during this [riot/insurrection/protest/whateveryouwanttocallit]. This isn't up for debate. This is a -fact-. Whine all you want, this doesn't change reality.
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Report this Post07-28-2021 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


Ashli was killed on Jan 6 in the capitol during this [riot/insurrection/protest/whateveryouwanttocallit]. This isn't up for debate. This is a -fact-. Whine all you want, this doesn't change reality.


I say she was AMBUSHED WITHOUT WARNING and NEEDLESSLY MURDERED by a COWARDLY, INCOMPETENT, DEMORAT, police officer with a documented history of mishandling his firearm who was hiding in a coat closet and popped out only to shoot Ashli Babbitt and then ran away.

The ONLY HOMICIDE that day was committed by the aforementioned COWARDLY, INCOMPETENT, DEMORAT.

That DOES NOT make any of the rioters that day "deadly" OR "insurrectionists"

This isn't up for debate. This is a -fact-. Whine all you want.

Only YOU LEFTISTS are trying, and failing, to change reality.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-29-2021).]

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Report this Post07-28-2021 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


I say that it was a MOSTLY PEACEFUL event because IT WAS.

A very small percentage of the people attending the rally that day have been arrested and charged with a crime.

That percentage of people arrested is likely MUCH smaller than what I have been posting because, although there is very good reason to believe that the crowd was significantly larger that day, the only "official" estimate of the crowd comes from the National Park Service that only records that they "permitted" a gathering of 30,000 people on the mall that day.

Even using that "diminutive" 30,000 number it is obvious that only a tiny fraction of people have been arrested and charged with any crime, ergo the MOSTLY PEACEFUL description is accurate and apt.







You are absolutely correct.
Two things (or more) can be true at the same time. As I mentioned, millions of Trump supporters did not participate and only a VERY small % got stupid that day. (And I will add that those that participated in the Jan6 trespassing don't even mirror Trumps motive or intent) so yes I absolutely do agree that the protests on Jan6 were ABSOLUTELY mostly positive and peaceful.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Insurrection or sedition or even homicide as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Advocating overthrow of Government (18 U.S. Code § 2385) as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Threatening government officials of the United States (under 18 U.S.C. § 871 or 18 U.S. Code § 351 or 18 U.S. Code § 115 or any local statute) as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today only 535 individuals], (<1.7 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 35 individuals, (<0.10 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have been charged with "conspiracy".

As of today only 35 individuals, (6.5 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have been charged with "conspiracy".

As of today only 3 individuals, (0.5 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have pled guilty to "conspiracy".

As of today only 20 individuals, (3.7 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have pled guilty to any charges

As of today only 20 individuals, (<0.06 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have pled guilty to any charges

As of today only 17 individuals, (<0.05 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC alleged to be members of the "Oath Keepers" group have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 12 individuals, (<0.04 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC alleged to be members of the "Proud Boys" group have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 1 needless homicide happened at the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC and it was committed by a Demorat with a documented history of mishandling his firearm.

As of today 1 unopened LEGO toy has been seized by the Biden administration as "evidence of a conspiracy" related to the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-29-2021).]

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Report this Post07-29-2021 12:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


We've established why they were there, they didn't accept the results of the election; ie "stop the steal".
So let's take your words, "deadly insurrection"
So you don't have to waste your time excusing all five deaths, we'll go with the easy one. Ashli Babbit is dead, ergo deadly. You can't argue that.

Only word left is "insurrection". . . from the meriam webster "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government"

They were rebelling (ie revolting) against the lawfully establish government. They didn't want the election results certified, aka "stop the steal". When Pence did certify, they then called for his head. They did so forcibly, beating officers ruthlessly for their cause.


Uhh, let's examine this for a second. Only one person was killed that day, and it was by a Capital Police Officer.
So no,......not "deadly" it was a mostly peaceful event that the Capital Police have to defend.
I challenge you to prove that more than one person was killed during the trespassing.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-29-2021).]

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Report this Post07-29-2021 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


Uhh, let's examine this for a second. Only one person was killed that day, and it was by a Capital Police Officer.
So no,......not "deadly" it was a mostly peaceful event that the Capital Police have to defend.
I challenge you to prove that more than one person was killed during the trespassing.



lolololololololol, "it wasn't deadly, it was only one person dead."

I've never seen such a blatant disconnect from reality. Imagine someone barging into a families home and killing one of the parents but leaving two kids and the other parent. I'd laugh myself to death seeing them argue at court. . . "Your honor, I only killed ONE of them so it wasn't deadly. . . I was mostly peaceful! I should only be charged with trespassing."
For the life of my, someone died during this protest, not even counting the other people that had medical issues, but Ashli died as a DIRECT result of being in the capitol attempting to gain entry to a secure area. . . She's literally dead and you're saying it wasn't deadly.

Officers also testified under oath that people were trying to strip their firearms from them and use them against them. I guess they're lying.

Everyone is lying except the one guy who has a history of constantly lying.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
DOJ "Direct"

This https link is a portal to Capitol Breach-related press releases from the U.S. Department of Justice.
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence#News

As of this moment, there have been 106 U.S. DOJ press releases related to the Jan. 6 Capitol Breach.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


lolololololololol, "it wasn't deadly, it was only one person dead."

Ok, let's examine this one to. BUT may I first point out that you provided no proof that 5 people were killed. I won't call you a liar, I simply think your sources are to blame.
 
quote

I've never seen such a blatant disconnect from reality. Imagine someone barging into a families home and killing one of the parents but leaving two kids and the other parent. I'd laugh myself to death seeing them argue at court. . . "Your honor, I only killed ONE of them so it wasn't deadly. . . I was mostly peaceful! I should only be charged with trespassing."

Let's examine this scenario for a second: the trespassers did not kill anyone so your analogy is way off. What happened was an unarmed woman was shot and killed by Capitol Police. The use of the word "deadly" is purely for shock value, both politically and for headlines.
 
quote

For the life of my, someone died during this protest, not even counting the other people that had medical issues, but Ashli died as a DIRECT result of being in the capitol attempting to gain entry to a secure area. . . She's literally dead and you're saying it wasn't deadly.

Context is everything. Yes Police killed her, NO the trespassing was not deadly as in the trespassers killed people.
 
quote

Officers also testified under oath that people were trying to strip their firearms from them and use them against them. I guess they're lying.

No, I do not "guess" that they are lying. No doubt in my mind that if this actually did happen, that the Capital Police assumed the worst. And so this leads to a logical question: how many Capital Police lost possession of a firearm? How many people were shot with said stolen firearm? If the Capital Police believed their life was in danger, why didn't they defend themselves with deadly force?
No not all situations require deadly force, but if dozens of rioters can't manage to take a firearm away from a single person, I tend to believe those rioters were not after the gun and had not intentions of shooting anyone. Besides, they could have brought their own guns IF they conspired to overthrow a Government.
 
quote

Everyone is lying except the one guy who has a history of constantly lying.

If by implying Trump is a liar, you should apply the same standard to biden,....you know, the guy who was an 18 wheeler driver.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
I say she was AMBUSHED WITHOUT WARNING and NEEDLESSLY MURDERED by a COWARDLY, INCOMPETENT, DEMORAT, police officer with a documented history of mishandling his firearm who was hiding in a coat closet and popped out only to shoot Ashli Babbitt and then ran away.

The ONLY HOMICIDE that day was committed by the aforementioned COWARDLY, INCOMPETENT, DEMORAT.

That DOES NOT make any of the rioters that day "deadly" OR "insurrectionists"

This isn't up for debate. This is a -fact-. Whine all you want.

Only YOU LEFTISTS are trying, and failing, to change reality.



Details matter for sure.
They may not matter as much as headlines to some for whom the details destroy a narrative of lies and misdirection.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Details matter for sure.
They may not matter as much as headlines to some for whom the details destroy a narrative of lies and misdirection.


Details matter. Ashli was attempting to gain access to a secure area of the capitol. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Curious, how far should the police have let these rioters get into the capitol before they DID use deadly force?

But I get it, she's your martyr. Your simultaneously arguing she was murdered while also claiming it wasn't deadly. The fact that you can't see how ridiculous of an argument this is makes everything else moot.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


Details matter. Ashli was attempting to gain access to a secure area of the capitol. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Curious, how far should the police have let these rioters get into the capitol before they DID use deadly force?

But I get it, she's your martyr. Your simultaneously arguing she was murdered while also claiming it wasn't deadly. The fact that you can't see how ridiculous of an argument this is makes everything else moot.


Those are alot of words put in my mouth, I'm not sure whose words they are.

You cite one person, one person you blame as a perpetrator who "played stupid games, won stupid prizes".
What else have you got?
Also any comebacks for the posts in the first page of the thread?
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Report this Post07-29-2021 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Insurrection today, happening now in the U.S. House of Representatives!

Thi s is a developing story!

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 07-29-2021).]

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Report this Post07-29-2021 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


Details matter. Ashli was attempting to gain access to a secure area of the capitol. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Of multiple Officers who were there, only one used deadly force, the others obviously felt the use of deadly force was not required. BUT, if she had it coming, then by all means follow policies and procedures.
At this point in time, I am.not convinced deadly force was required.
 
quote

Curious, how far should the police have let these rioters get into the capitol before they DID use deadly force?

Well, I can't answer that because I am not even familiar with the layout of the building or the training, policies and procedures. She was unarmed, that is kinda a big deal,...wouldn't you say?
 
quote

But I get it, she's your martyr. Your simultaneously arguing she was murdered while also claiming it wasn't deadly. The fact that you can't see how ridiculous of an argument this is makes everything else moot.

This is your ridiculous argument, not mine and to my knowledge nobody has said in this thread that they support the trespassing? So by all means please do name names, I want to know who is arguing in favor of this point?
Again you assume that you know what people think and believe, that all of "you Trumpers" are all alike. This as I already pointed out is untrue.
I have said several times that the trespassing was incredibly stupid,.....so yah that makes her a martyr? In your eyes she is definitely an anti-martyr. A person you hang on the necks of people you want to label. A person you paint half the Country as being alike. A person so conveniently available to identify "the other side".
But I get it, you and "your side" would rather fume and spew emotional shots from the hip, rather than deal in facts. You are doing exactly what you accuse "Trumpers" of doing, spouting off with emotional outbursts lacking truth and facts, full of accusations blindly cast over a group of people you don't even know.
So before you just dismiss this reply, prove me wrong by answering my questions and provide some type of evidence to your claims. Throughout this last 2 pages I asked a few questions and responses to your comments and your only reply is emotional.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


... but Ashli died as a DIRECT result of being in the capitol attempting to gain entry to a secure area. . .


WRONG

I see you're trying for the Olympic Gold Medal of CAUSATION CONFLATION known "fondly" as: Non Causa Pro Causa

The undisputed fact is that a LOT of other people were in the capitol and entered restricted areas that day and they are obviously NOT DEAD.

Ashli Babbitt died "as a DIRECT result" of being ambushed and murdered by A COWARDLY, INCOMPETENT, DEMORAT

NOBODY ELSE
shot anyone else that day....Just him.

NOBODY ELSE killed anyone else that day....Just him.

NONE of the hundreds of other police officers shot or killed anyone that day.


Once again your sophomoric 'splaining vividly demonstrates your Leftist desperation to create a narrative that isn't truthful or factual:

 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

Imagine someone barging into a families home and killing one of the parents but leaving two kids and the other parent. I'd laugh myself to death seeing them argue at court. . . "Your honor, I only killed ONE of them so it wasn't deadly. . .


That wasn't what happened on January 6, 2021 at the Capitol though.

There aren't even any remote similarities to your hypothetical little fable.

NONE of the rioters killed anyone.

Although given your demonstrated propensity for ridiculous, hyperbolic, narratives, logical errors and fallacies and knowing that you'll likely default to the equally absurd "you / they made me do it" argument fallacy, I'll go ahead and ask you this question:

IF the events on January 6. 2021 were "deadly" as you continue to insist, then WHO made it "deadly"?


(Notably, we have already established that your specious claim of "insurrection" is thoroughly debunked)

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-30-2021).]

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Report this Post07-29-2021 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


Well, I can't answer that because I am not even familiar with the layout of the building or the training, policies and procedures. She was unarmed, that is kinda a big deal,...wouldn't you say?



You know, you have indirectly raised a very interesting point.

The claim that Ashli Babbit was killed while attempting to enter "a secure area" certainly bears a bit of examination.


Has anyone seen or heard any objective, factual, evidence that:

1. The area she was attempting to enter was actually an official, designated, "secure area" ?

2. That IF such "secure areas" exist then what specific federal law makes them so designated?

3. That any constructive notice was given that it was a "secure area"?

4. That deadly force was legally authorized to prevent entry into the "secure area"?

5. That IF such deadly force was authorized, what specific federal law makes it authorized?

6. That any constructive notice was given that deadly force was authorized?

7. That any lawful order by anyone with such authority was issued to use deadly force against anyone attempting to enter a "secure area"?

8. .... And most importantly....was Ashli Babbit ever given any warning whatsoever about the use of deadly force?

..............................................................................

Perhaps some "Random" Leftist, possessed of "unique evidence" will "enlighten" us all........or not.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-30-2021).]

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Report this Post07-29-2021 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


You know, you have indirectly raised a very interesting point.

The claim that Ashli Babbit was killed while attempting to enter "a secure area" certainly bears a bit of examination.


Has anyone seen or heard any objective, factual, evidence that:

1. The area she was attempting to enter was actually an official, designated, "secure area" ?

2. That IF such "secure areas" exist then what specific federal law makes them so designated?

3. That any constructive notice was given that it was a "secure area"?

4. That deadly force was legally authorized to prevent entry into the "secure area"?

5. That IF such deadly force was authorized, what specific federal law makes it authorized?

6. That any constructive notice was given that deadly force was authorized?

7. That any lawful order by anyone with such authority was issued to use deadly force against anyone attempting to enter a "secure area"?

* .... And most importantly....was Ashli Babbit ever given any warning whatsoever about the use of deadly force?

..............................................................................

Perhaps some "Random" Leftist, possessed of "unique evidence" will "enlighten" us all........or not.


Very good points and questions.
Opinions that I have heard about this topic seem to automatically assume that getting to close to Politicians is a death sentence, or a shoot on sight situation, without even asking if this is the case. So are Politicians so much above the value of the citizens that they are guarded by a "shoot at will" clause?
Out here in California, VERY SPECIFIC conditions need to exist before deadly force can be used. And I will also add that those conditions are stricter for Law Enforcement than for the average Citizens.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-29-2021).]

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Report this Post07-29-2021 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I do want to add to this topic a real and serious bit of advice, unrelated but in a way related to the topic. If you are going to carry a firearm for self defense GET INSURANCE.
This Capitol Police Officer who shot an unarmed woman on Jan6 has insurance through his employer and with that a team of lawyers to argue for him in court. A "self defense" shooting is VERY LIKELY to cause substantial monetary, emotional and legal trauma for the person who used a gun,....EVEN if nobody dies. Collateral damage to property is a VERY likely accurance.
Stay safe and stay protected.
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Report this Post07-29-2021 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

Out here in California, VERY SPECIFIC conditions need to exist before deadly force can be used. And I will also add that those conditions are stricter for Law Enforcement than for the average Citizens.



Whether it's the "People's Republik of Kalifornia", inside the U.S. Capitol building or anywhere else in this country, government can't just arbitrarily decide one day that somewhere is "a secure area" and then KILL anyone that crosses their imaginary line.

Even the military has to designate areas well in advance and have that approved by Congress and THEN they also must make constructive notice by way of prominent WARNING SIGNS that are conspicuously posted AND those signs cite the specific US CODE, section and subsection that makes the use of deadly force lawful....AND EVEN THEN procedures and regulations specify that arrest should be the first tactic , NOT GUNFIRE.

Only in the sick, twisted, head of a LEFTIST is the ambush and murder of Ashli Babbit "justified".

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-29-2021).]

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quote
Originally posted by randye:


Whether it's the "People's Republik of Kalifornia", inside the U.S. Capitol building or anywhere else in this country, government can't just arbitrarily decide one day that somewhere is "a secure area" and then KILL anyone that crosses their imaginary line.

Even the military has to designate areas well in advance and have that approved by Congress and THEN they also must make constructive notice by way of prominent WARNING SIGNS that are conspicuously posted AND those signs cite the specific US CODE, section and subsection that makes the use of deadly force lawful....AND EVEN THEN procedures and regulations specify that arrest should be the first tactic , NOT GUNFIRE.

Only in the sick, twisted, head of a LEFTIST is the ambush and murder of Ashli Babbit "justified".



This is a good point.
So do you know where the internal investigation is at this point. A deadly use of force investigation?
This seems like to much of a high profile case to be clean cut and over with?
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Report this Post07-30-2021 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Insurrection or sedition or even homicide as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Advocating overthrow of Government (18 U.S. Code § 2385) as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Threatening government officials of the United States (under 18 U.S.C. § 871 or 18 U.S. Code § 351 or 18 U.S. Code § 115 or any local statute) as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today only 535 individuals], (<1.7 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 35 individuals, (<0.10 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have been charged with "conspiracy".

As of today only 35 individuals, (6.5 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have been charged with "conspiracy".

As of today only 3 individuals, (0.5 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have pled guilty to "conspiracy".

As of today only 20 individuals, (3.7 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have pled guilty to any charges

As of today only 20 individuals, (<0.06 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have pled guilty to any charges

As of today only 17 individuals, (<0.05 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC alleged to be members of the "Oath Keepers" group have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 12 individuals, (<0.04 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC alleged to be members of the "Proud Boys" group have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 1 needless homicide happened at the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC and it was committed by a Demorat with a documented history of mishandling his firearm.

As of today 1 unopened LEGO toy has been seized by the Biden administration as "evidence of a conspiracy" related to the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC
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quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
This is a good point. So do you know where the internal investigation is at this point. A deadly use of force investigation?

This seems like to much of a high profile case to be clean cut and over with?

That's a great question, Rick. And I'm pleased to be able to highlight a response from the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia, in the form of a press release, dated April 14, 2021 and published on the U.S. Department of Justice website.


"Department of Justice Closes Investigation into the Death of Ashli Babbitt"
 
quote
The U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia and the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice will not pursue criminal charges against the U.S. Capitol Police officer involved in the fatal shooting of 35-year-old Ashli Babbitt, the Office announced today.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia’s Public Corruption and Civil Rights Section and the Civil Rights Division, with the Metropolitan Police Department’s Internal Affairs Division (IAD), conducted a thorough investigation of Ms. Babbitt’s shooting. Officials examined video footage posted on social media, statements from the officer involved and other officers and witnesses to the events, physical evidence from the scene of the shooting, and the results of an autopsy. Based on that investigation, officials determined that there is insufficient evidence to support a criminal prosecution. Officials from IAD informed a representative of Ms. Babbitt’s family today of this determination.

That's the first two paragraphs of the press release, which registers on Read-o-Meter at a very svelte and sustainable 4 minutes for a careful read of the entire text.

Access the entire press release:
https://www.justice.gov/usa...-death-ashli-babbitt
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Report this Post07-30-2021 04:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

.... I'm pleased to be able to highlight a response from the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia, in the form of a press release, dated April 14, 2021 and published on the U.S. Department of Justice website.



The Pennocks Purveyor Of Perjury is NOT "pleased to highlight" the rest of the story.


 
quote


The focus of the criminal investigation was to determine whether federal prosecutors could prove that the officer violated any federal laws,

concentrating on the possible application of 18 U.S.C. § 242, a federal criminal civil rights statute.

In order to establish a violation of this statute, prosecutors must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the officer acted willfully to deprive Ms. Babbitt of a right protected by the Constitution or other law, here the Fourth Amendment right not to be subjected to an unreasonable seizure.

Prosecutors would have to prove not only that the officer used force that was constitutionally unreasonable, but that the officer did so “willfully,” which the Supreme Court has interpreted to mean that the officer acted with a bad purpose to disregard the law.

As this requirement has been interpreted by the courts,

evidence that an officer acted out of fear, mistake, panic, misperception, negligence, or even poor judgment cannot establish the high level of intent required under Section 242.




 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

This seems like to much of a high profile case to be clean cut and over with?




No Grasshopper
. Never underestimate the deviousness of LEFTISTS with an agenda and a narrative to try to sell everyone.

All the Biden administration, via "Groveling Garland", had to do is simply focus the "investigation" under the right premise and statute, in this case 18 U.S.C. § 242, and BINGO! the conclusion was already made before they even started.

No "messy" criminal investigation under 18 U.S. Code § 1111 or 18 U.S. Code § 51 ...NO, NO, NO we can't have that....they went with a CIVIL RIGHTS violation premise.

They just COULD NOT have an DEMORAT officer indicted for killing Ashli Babbitt while NONE of their so-called "insurrectionists" killed anyone.

That wouldn't help push their narrative at all.

Their problem though is that NONE of that political trickery stops or even hinders the CIVIL SUIT that has been brought by the Babbitt family.

The discovery phase and the evidentiary hearings of that litigation are going to be very, very interesting and revelatory, AND it's not going to be centered on a civil rights violation with a predetermined outcome.

The plaintiff(s) do have a valid cause of action and proper jurisdiction and it will probably survive any Motion to Dismiss or Motion for Summary Judgment.

So NO, the case is NOT going to be "laughed out of court as frivolous" as "Nostradumbass" has predicted.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-31-2021).]

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Report this Post07-30-2021 07:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't rule out a civil case. Details never seen before can come out.
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As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Insurrection or sedition or even homicide as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Advocating overthrow of Government (18 U.S. Code § 2385) as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today, NOBODY has been charged with Threatening government officials of the United States (under 18 U.S.C. § 871 or 18 U.S. Code § 351 or 18 U.S. Code § 115 or any local statute) as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021

As of today only 535 individuals], (<1.7 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 35 individuals, (<0.10 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have been charged with "conspiracy".

As of today only 35 individuals, (6.5 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have been charged with "conspiracy".

As of today only 3 individuals, (0.5 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have pled guilty to "conspiracy".

As of today only 20 individuals, (3.7 %) out of the 535 people arrested as a result of the MOSTLY PEACEFUL events of January 6, 2021 have pled guilty to any charges

As of today only 20 individuals, (<0.06 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC have pled guilty to any charges

As of today only 17 individuals, (<0.05 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC alleged to be members of the "Oath Keepers" group have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 12 individuals, (<0.04 %) out of the >30,000 people attending the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC alleged to be members of the "Proud Boys" group have been charged with a crime.

As of today only 1 needless homicide happened at the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC and it was committed by a Demorat with a documented history of mishandling his firearm.

As of today 1 unopened LEGO toy has been seized by the Biden administration as "evidence of a conspiracy" related to the MOSTLY PEACEFUL January 6, 2021 rally in DC
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Report this Post07-31-2021 06:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageClick Here to Email rinselbergSend a Private Message to rinselbergEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"ECHOES OF THE PAST"


"Free Germany from Marxism!" English translation of the "Mach Deutschland vom Marxismus frei !" banner seen prominently in this photograph from Adolf Hitler's first major speech as the German Chancellor, at the Berlin Sportpalast, on February 10, 1933.


 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
Only in the sick, twisted, head of a LEFTIST is the ambush and murder of Ashli Babbit "justified."
Pennock's Fiero Forum; July 29, 2021.


"Trump and his MAGA Mob find their 'Horst Wessel' in Ashli Babbitt"
rinselberg for Pennock's Fiero Forum; July 30, 2021.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...ML/126499-2.html#p51


[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-31-2021).]

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Report this Post07-31-2021 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

.....this photograph from Adolf Hitler's first major speech......

"ECHOES OF THE PAST"

"Trump and his MAGA Mob find their 'Horst Wessel' in Ashli Babbitt"
rinselberg for Pennock's Fiero Forum; July 30, 2021.




Having absolutely NOTHING of substance or value to say you now childishly default to Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies

Pathetic and predictable.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 07-31-2021).]

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quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

"ECHOES OF THE PAST"


"Free Germany from Marxism!" English translation of the "Mach Deutschland vom Marxismus frei !" banner seen prominently in this photograph from Adolf Hitler's first major speech as the German Chancellor, at the Berlin Sportpalast, on February 10, 1933.


In another thread, you posted a video which included music by Richard Wagner. Wagner was Adolf Hitler's favorite composer. Are we to infer from that that you agree with Hitler?

Jeffrey Dahmer drank a cup of coffee almost every morning, therefore all coffee drinkers are serial killers.

The fact that Nazis don't like Communists only proves that even ill informed morons know that communism is bad.
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People are putting history into it's proper places. It's always been puzzle pieces that don't fit properly. Younger people aren't married to the agena narratives of the past.
They get it quicker.
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quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

In another thread, you posted a video which included music by Richard Wagner. Wagner was Adolf Hitler's favorite composer. Are we to infer from that that you agree with Hitler?

Jeffrey Dahmer drank a cup of coffee almost every morning, therefore all coffee drinkers are serial killers.

The fact that Nazis don't like Communists only proves that even ill informed morons know that communism is bad.

It's not about "liking" or "not liking" Communists or "liking" or "not liking" some other group or idea.

When I let my eyes focus on a "randye" message, I see and hear a totalitarian mindset. He has no interest whatsoever in civilized online conversation. He conducts himself here like an idiot--to borrow the very same word that "olejoedad" decided to use against me, just the other day.

It isn't worth my effort to enlarge on this assertion and turn it into some kind of point-by-point explanation, essay or "chalk talk." I've already done that, numerous times before. If anyone isn't already "woke" about this by now, they never will be.

I've talked, of late, about how I navigate the forum in a careful way that helps prevent me from seeing any of his messages.

I estimate that of every 10 messages that are currently emanating from the "randye" account, only three are getting in front of my eyes, and that's mostly by my own choice, and not because I had a "navigation error." So I have him in a 70% "eclipse."

I think I am going to keep pushing on that, until it's a total eclipse or very close to totality. I think it's worth my going in that direction. Or at least giving it a try.

My "ECHOES OF THE PAST" creation, which is 5 messages back before this one, is seeming to me, at this moment, as kind of like the period at the end of a sentence that ran on for tens of thousands of words and more than 10 years. (I'd have to check on the '10 years" part. That's off the top of my head.)
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