I dunno. In retrospect I think this is what will be recorded: That the arab political powers that be in the Middle East, tireed of the disruptive actions of militant groups like Hezbollah, will hem and haw about Isreal's actions as long as it is convenient to them. I'll bet someone in Isreal's cabinet has been talking to nearby countries and got the 'okay' to carry all this out. Once Isreal has crippled, or destroyed enough of Hezbollah, or it's current incarnation, they'll decry the whole thing. But not enough to encourager a return. Even Isreal is sending humanitarian aid into the area. Isreal is the most effective military force native to the area, besides the US, but their agenda is not always the same as ours...

Bill how hard headed are you??? simple answer to all your latest posts are

A. THE TERRORIST TARGET CIVILIANS

B. ISRAELIES DO NOT.

Terrorists are never listed in casualty list because they ARE civilian (or as the news claims 'innocent civilians' All the casualties are listed as either military or civilian with no accounting of whether the 'civilians' were THE TERRORISTS.

Cuba has no bearing on this. Were in a declared war and those are captured enemy participants. Were not chopping off their heads or burning them live in the streets. So OK, we do make some strip and pose naked with a guard dog.

Thats funny Roger because I was thinking the same about you.

I mean how far up the anal cavity does one have to be before every shread of reality disapears and the rose colored glasses are put on? Your assertions that Israel is always right and the Arabs are always wrong is quite alarming.

From a post I edited earlier.


Zeinab, 13, is one of four people still at Tyre's Najm Hospital who survived an ill-fated civilian convoy that left the village of Aitaroun last Friday to escape from one of the most bombed areas in south-east of Lebanon near the Israeli border.

Ohh I'm sorry, she must be a supporter of Hezbollah and deserves what she got. Not to mention she is someone elses kid... so who cares?

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Bill how hard headed are you??? simple answer to all your latest posts are A. THE TERRORIST TARGET CIVILIANS B. ISRAELIES DO NOT. Terrorists are never listed in casualty list because they ARE civilian (or as the news claims 'innocent civilians' All the casualties are listed as either military or civilian with no accounting of whether the 'civilians' were THE TERRORISTS. Cuba has no bearing on this. Were in a declared war and those are captured enemy participants. Were not chopping off their heads or burning them live in the streets. So OK, we do make some strip and pose naked with a guard dog.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: We're in a declared war

no, congress hasn't declared war since 1941. what we're in now is undeclared war, a legal detail which is meaningless to the guys with the guns. but the social and political consequences of the legislative branch handing over its constitutionally defined powers to the executive will be significant.

as for israel, they appear to be responding in kind to hezbollah attacks on civillian targets. chicken, egg, hard to tell where it all began. and at this point, probably irrelevant.

quote Originally posted by lurker: no, congress hasn't declared war since 1941. what we're in now is undeclared war, a legal detail which is meaningless to the guys with the guns. but the social and political consequences of the legislative branch handing over its constitutionally defined powers to the executive will be significant. as for israel, they appear to be responding in kind to hezbollah attacks on civillian targets. chicken, egg, hard to tell where it all began. and at this point, probably irrelevant.

You are correct that there has been no formal declaration of war, but congress has authorized the president to use military troops - much the same as every other military action since 1941. The powers aren't being handed over to the executive branch, they are still being authorized - just in a different manner.

As for the chicken and egg deal with Isreal and Hezzbollah, it began when 2 Israeli soliders were kidnapped. Israel had been making great gestures to give Palestinians what they want - pulling out of Gaza completely last year, dismantling all Jewish settlements there, etc. None of that slowed down the terrorist attacks. So, when Hezzbollah captured these 2 Israeli soldiers, Israel finally decided they'd had enough. Whether you agree with their response or not, that's pretty much what happened.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Thats funny Roger because I was thinking the same about you. I mean how far up the anal cavity does one have to be before every shread of reality disapears and the rose colored glasses are put on? Your assertions that Israel is always right and the Arabs are always wrong is quite alarming. From a post I edited earlier. Zeinab, 13, is one of four people still at Tyre's Najm Hospital who survived an ill-fated civilian convoy that left the village of Aitaroun last Friday to escape from one of the most bombed areas in south-east of Lebanon near the Israeli border. Ohh I'm sorry, she must be a supporter of Hezbollah and deserves what she got. Not to mention she is someone elses kid... so who cares?

Bill, maybe you do not understad the definition of the word "TARGET"!

Hezbollah is a criminal organization that has effectively castrated Lebanon's government. The Lebanese victims of this war can blame their own government for letting Hezbollah take charge. And they can insist that they round up and arrest Hezbollah members.

Isreal just defended herself after she was attacked. You were a big war hero Bill, don't you get the concept of self defense?

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Bill, maybe you do not understad the definition of the word "TARGET"!

Sure I do, A target is something that you aim at and in the case of war it's usually associated with big smoking craters and dead or wounded people. Kinda like the little girl targeted... I mean pictured above.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Sure I do, A target is something that you aim at and in the case of war it's usually associated with big smoking craters and dead or wounded people. Kinda like the little girl targeted... I mean pictured above.

Good, then I take it that you agree that the Kartusha rockets being indiscriminantly launched by the murderous terror organization Hezbollah at random targets in the sovereign nation of Isreal, on their own accord, and without provocation, is an immoral and illegal act that you condemn. And that the surgical targeting of islamic extremists in southern Lebanon, which regrettablly has collateral damage to some civilians who were warned to leave the area days ago and decided to stay in a war zone anyway, are not comparable events.

You could have saved a lot of typing by simply saying so in the first place.

It says a lot about the differences in the way Israel is fighting vs. Hezzbollah. Israel goes out of it's way to drop leaflets warning people to leave before they attack. Hezzbollah appears to be trying to target the most civilians possible.

'bout sums it up.

While I will not say that it was without "provocation" I will say yes, they do rather indiscriminatly fire off rockets in Israels general direction and do hit civillians. Given the technology level of the rockets Hezbollah is using I'm not surprised they are hitting civillians. Perhaps if Hezbollah had better weapons and targeting systems they wouldn't be hitting civillians and instead would hit the seats of the israelie government.

OTOH Israel has superior weapons and targeting systems... so what lame ass excuse are you going to give the israelies for TARGETING Lebanese civillians and civillian targets like power stations and airports? Hezbollah hasn't placed an undue harships on the commerce of the people of israel by destroying such things nor have they killed nearly the same numbers of innocent civillians as Israel has.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Good, then I take it that you agree that the Kartusha rockets being indiscriminantly launched by the murderous terror organization Hezbollah at random targets in the sovereign nation of Isreal, on their own accord, and without provocation, is an immoral and illegal act that you condemn. And that the surgical targeting of islamic extremists in southern Lebanon, which regrettablly has collateral damage to some civilians who were warned to leave the area days ago and decided to stay in a war zone anyway, are not comparable events. You could have saved a lot of typing by simply saying so in the first place.

Doesn't sound like Rice's visit to Lebanon did much good. The head mucky muck of the Mezbollah just said that they are not willing to reach any comprimise with the Israel, and said that they will not rest until all the Jew's are dead.

http://wcco.com/worldwire/MideastFighting-Hezbo_a_i_-----/resources_news_html

Saw on the news tonight where the Israelis are now targeting the banks that Hezbalah runs it's money through. They're using some very good targeting processes. Laser guided and other very accurate systems. Sounds like they have a plan to really strangle the Hezblalah group financially that is. You have to admire a well planned and executed mission. SOmeone has done their homework.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: While I will not say that it was without "provocation" I will say yes, they do rather indiscriminatly fire off rockets in Israels general direction and do hit civillians.

Ohhh, I see. So what you are saying is that Isreal PROVOCED the war by not letting Hezbollah kidnap 2 soldiers and murder 8 others without consequence.

Well, Bill, I'm sure your "brothers in arms" are just lining up to run to your defense on this issue and put me in my place.

quote Given the technology level of the rockets Hezbollah is using I'm not surprised they are hitting civillians. Perhaps if Hezbollah had better weapons and targeting systems they wouldn't be hitting civillians and instead would hit the seats of the israelie government.

Perhaps?

NO BILL! You still don't get it. Let me explain it so even you can understand. Hezbollah is TRYING to hit civilians. THEY WANT WAR! They want to eradicate the jewish race. They want civilian deaths. They are murderers, not soldiers. Can your little brain grasp that concept?

quote OTOH Israel has superior weapons and targeting systems... so what lame ass excuse are you going to give the israelies for TARGETING Lebanese civillians and civillian targets like power stations and airports? Hezbollah hasn't placed an undue harships on the commerce of the people of israel by destroying such things nor have they killed nearly the same numbers of innocent civillians as Israel has.

Hezbollahs' broadcasting stations were all wiped out in the first two days of conflict, and yet they continued to broadcast. How? DUH! They were using the Lebanese transmitters. NATURALLY Israel is going to target power stations, tv, and radio towers, etc. And before they did they dropped leaflets written in arabic telling ALL civilians that if they valued their lives they had better get the **** out of Dodge before the bombs flew.

They are NOT targeting civilians you anti-semetic slob. They are targeting military tools. Jews are just people. They are not evil. I don't care what your parents told you as a boy about them trying to take over the world yada yada yada. It's CRAP! This war is the fault of intolerant assholes like you who seem to think that all their problems of their poor little pathetci lives are someone elses fault. Stimpy's pitiful mental break down was ALL MY FAULT. Don't think so, just ask him!! I'm sick and tired of whiny ass people who can't do for themsleves blaming America, Jews, the boogie-man, whomever, for their misery. Remember the scene in the Godfather where Marlon Brando grabs Johnny Fontain and slaps him around and says, "you can act like a man". Well, that is what you need Bill. Time to stop blaming Israel for existing and learn to get along.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Ohhh, I see. So what you are saying is that Isreal PROVOCED the war by not letting Hezbollah kidnap 2 soldiers and murder 8 others without consequence.

Well Israel DID drop the first bombs on Lebanon.. which if I were any kind of patriotic Lebonese man I'd call it a blatent act of war.
But ok.. I'll agree. The taking of two civilians JUSTIFIES israels response to drop bombs on Lebanon.

I don't know if you read an earlier post of mine that read America take another 30 prisoners to GITMO.
SO
Applying the same logic that you and israel are then I guess we Americans should expect a retalitory strike from the countries those 30 prisoners were taken from.

If you say no then please explain your twisted and contorted double standard to the rest of us.

quote Well, Bill, I'm sure your "brothers in arms" are just lining up to run to your defense on this issue and put me in my place.

I don't see how this is realivent to the topic at hand.

quote quote Given the technology level of the rockets Hezbollah is using I'm not surprised they are hitting civillians. Perhaps if Hezbollah had better weapons and targeting systems they wouldn't be hitting civillians and instead would hit the seats of the israelie government. Perhaps? NO BILL! You still don't get it. Let me explain it so even you can understand. Hezbollah is TRYING to hit civilians. THEY WANT WAR! They want to eradicate the jewish race. They want civilian deaths. They are murderers, not soldiers. Can your little brain grasp that concept?

Hezbollah is lucky to be able to hit ANYTHING. Their rockets and targeting systems are so outdated that it's almost commical to assert that they are "targeting" ANYTHING. The technology they are using is not "targeted" but merely aimed in the general direction of the enemy and fired off in the hope it hits something. That HARDLY qualifies as "targeting."

That would be like you in Ca calling the police in Florida claiming that I was targeting you because I pointed my gun at you.

Again Israel has SUPERIOR target IDENTIFICATION and target AQUISITION capabilities Yet somehow they "accidentaly" hit
Zeinab, a 13 year old GIRL and her caravan of LEBONESE CIVILIAN REFUGEES fleaing the country in fear of their lives.

quote quote OTOH Israel has superior weapons and targeting systems... so what lame ass excuse are you going to give the israelies for TARGETING Lebanese civillians and civillian targets like power stations and airports? Hezbollah hasn't placed an undue harships on the commerce of the people of israel by destroying such things nor have they killed nearly the same numbers of innocent civillians as Israel has. Hezbollahs' broadcasting stations were all wiped out in the first two days of conflict, and yet they continued to broadcast. How? DUH! They were using the Lebanese transmitters. NATURALLY Israel is going to target power stations, tv, and radio towers, etc. And before they did they dropped leaflets written in arabic telling ALL civilians that if they valued their lives they had better get the **** out of Dodge before the bombs flew.

Got proof?

Got proof it stopped ALL transmisions?
Not to mention we are talking about an army that is independant of the power grid and has its OWN communications devices. And what the hell is hezbollah going to do with the airport? They have no air assets! DUH!

quote They are NOT targeting civilians you anti-semetic slob. They are targeting military tools. Jews are just people. They are not evil. I don't care what your parents told you as a boy about them trying to take over the world yada yada yada. It's CRAP! This war is the fault of intolerant assholes like you who seem to think that all their problems of their poor little pathetci lives are someone elses fault.

Yes they are targeting INNOCENT CIVILIANS you simple minded jackass . Your one sided views and hatred of the Arabs is blinding you to the picture of an INNOCENT 13 year old lebonese girl that I have posted several times now. You just hate the arabs and could care less about how they are TARGETED by your Jewish friends. I don't know what kind of parents you had but they have tought you how to hate and discriminate very effectively. If find your total lack of compassion and empathy disgusting.

quote Stimpy's pitiful mental break down was ALL MY FAULT. Don't think so, just ask him!! I'm sick and tired of whiny ass people who can't do for themsleves blaming America, Jews, the boogie-man, whomever, for their misery. Remember the scene in the Godfather where Marlon Brando grabs Johnny Fontain and slaps him around and says, "you can act like a man". Well, that is what you need Bill. Time to stop blaming Israel for existing and learn to get along.

Unlike you I'm not blaming anyone. The only basis for my arguments is to add balance to this discussion where as yours are totally biased.

Time to stop hating the Arabs Tardster.

Before you make more enemies than you can ever hope to CONTROL.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-24-2006).]

I have to agree with Todd. One of the longest standing military strategies has been to destroy infrastructure. Can't wage a war with no one to back you up, what with food and equipment for the soldiers. In the process, civilians usually get killed. Its happened in every war to date and this one is no different. Hell, Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't military targets. We'd better condemn ourselves.

No doubt. But Hezbollah doesn't have the capabilities of hitting such targets.. but how bastardized would they be if they could and did?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: I have to agree with Todd. One of the longest standing military strategies has been to destroy infrastructure. Can't wage a war with no one to back you up, what with food and equipment for the soldiers. In the process, civilians usually get killed. Its happened in every war to date and this one is no different. Hell, Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't military targets. We'd better condemn ourselves.

Quite bastardized.

And BTW, the fact that Hezbollah is firing rockets wildly at Isreal with almost no precision almost by definition means that they're targeting civilians, as the ratio of civilians and civilian areas to military persons and areas is staggering in favor of civilians.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Quite bastardized. And BTW, the fact that Hezbollah is firing rockets wildly at Isreal with almost no precision almost by definition means that they're targeting civilians, as the ratio of civilians and civilian areas to military persons and areas is staggering in favor of civilians.

I suppose you prefer they throw stones instead or should the just march in rank across the boarder and let israel just mow them down?

I think indiscriminent rockets since thats all they really have is probably the smartest (not to mention the ONLY realistic) option they have for fighting the Israles. So unless someone wants to sell them better equipment I can't fault them for using the only weapons they have. Sure beat "terrorism" but that will come after Israel invades and takes over Lebanon... Again Christ... set back 25 years in less than 2 weeks.

So, what should Israel have done, Bill? Leaving Gaza didn't help.

Done about what? And what does leaving gaza have to do with this shitfest?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So, what should Israel have done, Bill? Leaving Gaza didn't help.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I suppose you prefer they throw stones instead or should the just march in rank across the boarder and let israel just mow them down? I think indiscriminent rockets since thats all they really have is probably the smartest (not to mention the ONLY realistic) option they have for fighting the Israles. So unless someone wants to sell them better equipment I can't fault them for using the only weapons they have. Sure beat "terrorism" but that will come after Israel invades and takes over Lebanon... Again Christ... set back 25 years in less than 2 weeks.

So its ok for Hezbollah to lob rockets at whomever in Isreal they please, be they civilian or military, because its the best option they have? But its not ok for Isreal to cause collateral damage while they're attacking military forces and installations? Hellooooooo double standard.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I suppose you prefer they throw stones instead or should the just march in rank across the boarder and let israel just mow them down?

How about this solution. Give the soldiers back and leave Israel the %^&* alone. End of problem.

Stay on the Lebonese side of the border... get a freaking job and leave the Israelis in peace. Attacking people endlessly and then complaining when they defend themselves is an interesting plan... does that work here?

Was it the clothing the Israelis wore that caused the attacks? They said no... but they wanted it... yeah that's the ticket. If they didn't want to be shot at they shouldn't live on that side of town... or in any town for that matter, the only good jew is a dead jew? How about... But my preacher says I should kill them, stop trying to limit my freedom of religon!

Instead of repeating myself I'll just use other posts I have made in this thread.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: So its ok for Hezbollah to lob rockets at whomever in Isreal they please, be they civilian or military, because its the best option they have? But its not ok for Isreal to cause collateral damage while they're attacking military forces and installations? Hellooooooo double standard.

I'm not trying to say that ALL arabs are sweet and innocent, no more than you can convince me that all israelies are sweet and innocent. Jews have violated JUST as many cease fires and peace treaties as the arabs have so don't hand me some bullshit story about how israel is all sweet and innocent.

With that in mind and the fact that the israelies love us ONLY because we help them and the Arabs who hate us because "we don't care", how do you propose "we" protect ourselves? Any god damn idiot will tell you that when the stove is red it's hot so why the freaking hell do we keep touching to see if its hot? It's effing hot!

What we are DOING is OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING!

Our ATTITUDE toward the arab people is very very BAD! Thats not just my opinion, its a FACT.

So do we keep trying to make something that is OBVIOUSLY BROKEN to work or do you think that MAYBE.. JUST MAYBE it's time to try something just alittle bit different?

I don't care a lick about either jews or arabs. But I do care when "we the dealers" stack the deck in favor of one and are being cough red handed by the other players. Then try to deny it, call them the cheats and try to eliminate them from the game. I have a serious problem with that.

With power come great responsibility to act in a responsible way. When responsibility is cast to the forewinds and that superior power is brought to bear upon another with indescriminent and extreme prejudice without regard, then those who wield that power, those in control of that power are reduced to nothing more than brutal, heartless thugs imposing their will upon another without any shred of human emotion.

If you were in their shoes your tune would be VERY different.

I happened to notice. Judging by your posts you are in favor of Israel and the US stance on this issue. That pretty much makes you subservient to authority, bowing to the powers that be, trusting their righteousness and believeing everything they do is right and good.
You are off balance and lack empathy for those who have the disadvantage because it's alot easier and safer to bow down to the powers that be and kiss their hands and are thankful to not feel the wrath that is unleashed upon others.
You are BLIND to the faults of those who hold extreme power over you and in fact make excuses for them. You go blameing the victim for being victimized by looking at those who are at an obvious disadvantage and easily defeated and saying to them.... "well toughshit, you deserved it." thumb your nose and turn your back and smile with pride at your master for a job well done. Your 3 to 1 kill ratio is awesome... isn't it?

It makes me sick.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-24-2006).]

quote Well Israel DID drop the first bombs on Lebanon..

Well, no they did not. HEZBOLLAH started the war Bill. Get that clear if you take nothing else away from this thread. Please don't make me post a billion links to news stories around the universe to prove it....please!

quote I don't know if you read an earlier post of mine that read America take another 30 prisoners to GITMO. SO Applying the same logic that you and israel are then I guess we Americans should expect a retalitory strike from the countries those 30 prisoners were taken from.

OK, so by your logic, when the Iranian student took our embassy staff hostage in Tehran you are saying we should have done nothing about it. OK, we know where your head it at Bill.

You MUST acknowledge a counties' right, when an invader attacks them, to respond...unless of course you are ignorant of the facts or blinded by bigotry to accept the reality of WHO started the conflict.

quote I don't see how this is realivent to the topic at hand.

I'll give that one to you Bill. I've been begging you to stop bringing up your military service as some sort of trump card in all discussions political and military and you are doing it. Cudos to you.

quote Hezbollah is lucky to be able to hit ANYTHING. Their rockets and targeting systems are so outdated that it's almost commical to assert that they are "targeting" ANYTHING. The technology they are using is not "targeted" but merely aimed in the general direction of the enemy and fired off in the hope it hits something. That HARDLY qualifies as "targeting."

THIS is the crux of your problem bill. You SHOULD have said, "Israel is lucky that Hezbollah can't hit anything they target". You dropped your pants Bill. Your allegence is clearly with the terrorists and not their victims.

quote That would be like you in Ca calling the police in Florida claiming that I was targeting you because I pointed my gun at you.

OK Bill I'm going to go way out on a limb and say, "NO". This war would be nothing like that.

quote Again Israel has SUPERIOR target IDENTIFICATION and target AQUISITION capabilities Yet somehow they "accidentaly" hit Zeinab, a 13 year old GIRL and her caravan of LEBONESE CIVILIAN REFUGEES fleaing the country in fear of their lives.

"accidentally"...in quotes? Are you suggesting that Israel deliberately targets a little girl? Are you nuts?

And AGAIN, what does Israel's military might have to do with anything!?!?!?!

ISRAEL is the victim. HEZBOLLAH is the aggressor..the terrorist organization...the murderous regime that even the limp wristed panzy boys in the UN ordered to eb disarmed!!

HEZBOLLAH - bad guys

ISRAEL - good guys

Clear yet?

quote Got proof?

Is it necessary? Can't you Google on your own?
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/lebano13748.htm
http://www.myhabibi.net/joker/?p=291
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200607/INT20060720c.html
http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20060717-020900-7956r

that ought to get you started.

quote Got proof it stopped ALL transmisions? Not to mention we are talking about an army that is independant of the power grid and has its OWN communications devices. And what the hell is hezbollah going to do with the airport? They have no air assets! DUH!

Never said it stopped ALL transmission. In fact, Hezbollah continues to broadcast despite teh attacks. and as for assets all I can say is what YOU said, "Got proof"?

Iran and Syria have completely backed Hezbollah. Do you think they won't stop at giving them helicopter gun ships or MIGs? I wouldn't take that chance. War is a winner take all event. And when your existence is on the line, you play to win and you play HARD.

quote Yes they are targeting INNOCENT CIVILIANS you simple minded jackass . Your one sided views and hatred of the Arabs is blinding you to the picture of an INNOCENT 13 year old lebonese girl that I have posted several times now. You just hate the arabs and could care less about how they are TARGETED by your Jewish friends. I don't know what kind of parents you had but they have tought you how to hate and discriminate very effectively. If find your total lack of compassion and empathy disgusting. [This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-24-2006).]

well well well. The truth comes out doesn't it Bill. Too late to edit this one. I captured your hate speech in black and white.

Your contribution to this thread, and any other thread on the subject of Israel and Middle East peace, is no longer required.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: How about this solution. Give the soldiers back and leave Israel the %^&* alone. End of problem.

Thats all well and good but are you even AWARE of why those soldiers were taken?

quote Stay on the Lebonese side of the border... get a freaking job and leave the Israelis in peace. Attacking people endlessly and then complaining when they defend themselves is an interesting plan... does that work here? Was it the clothing the Israelis wore that caused the attacks? They said no... but they wanted it... yeah that's the ticket. If they didn't want to be shot at they shouldn't live on that side of town... or in any town for that matter, the only good jew is a dead jew? How about... But my preacher says I should kill them, stop trying to limit my freedom of religon!

Like I said many many many times before. I don't give a rats ass wht thos people are doing over there. I DON'T WANT MY GOVERNMENT TO SUPPORT ANYONE BUT ME!! Get out of Israel and stop supporting them. I DO NOT CARE about ISRAEL. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST and how those ass backward people live, eat, drink, treat their women or even if they run over thier childrens arms.. I..... DO ....... NOT........ CARE!

I only care when one people accuses ME and my POSTARITY of supporting ONE over THE OTHER (when I really DO NOT GIVE A SHEIT ABOUT ANY OF THEM!!!) then go flying airplanes into MY countries buildings and killing my citizens.

Am I making myself clear?

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-24-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: What we are DOING is OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING!

Actually it is. But you are too blinded by hate to know it. Clinton tried negotiating with Arafat and Israel for 7 years! 6 weeks after a accord was struck Palestine launced the Intifada...6 WEEKS!

Seven years of blabbering just gave Palestine time to arm and 6 weeks after peace was supposedly declared the bloddiest war yet had broken out.

Wake up Bill

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 07-24-2006).]

Bill, if I had any idea at all what the hell you were talking about or how you crafted that reply to my post, I might just be inclined to give you a real answer. I swear you pull inferrences out of mid-air. Hope you enjoy being sick, cause I don't care about YOU and have no inclination to change my opinion any time soon.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Thats all well and good but are you even AWARE of why those soldiers were taken? snip Am I making myself clear?

No and yes...

Explain to me why the Hezbollah snuck across the Israeli border, attacked and killed Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two... please.

Oh, never mind... because they want other Hezbollah back that got captured doing the same thing. So because Israel gives a damn about it's citizens it's been advantagous to kidnap more of them. It that the acceptable reason or do you have something better than what the Hezbollah themselves say?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737634.html

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Well, no they did not. HEZBOLLAH started the war Bill. Get that clear if you take nothing else away from this thread. Please don't make me post a billion links to news stories around the universe to prove it....please!

Re-Read what I wrote. I said Israel DROPPED THE FIRST BOMBS ON LEBANON.

quote quote I don't know if you read an earlier post of mine that read America take another 30 prisoners to GITMO. SO Applying the same logic that you and israel are then I guess we Americans should expect a retalitory strike from the countries those 30 prisoners were taken from. OK, so by your logic, when the Iranian student took our embassy staff hostage in Tehran you are saying we should have done nothing about it. OK, we know where your head it at Bill.

What?
I'm talking about 30 prisoners that America just snatched off the streets of their respective countries you moron.

quote You MUST acknowledge a counties' right, when an invader attacks them, to respond...unless of course you are ignorant of the facts or blinded by bigotry to accept the reality of WHO started the conflict.

Are you accusing me of being a bigot? I don't know how I can drive the point into your narrow mind but I am the furthest thing from a bogot you will ever have the pleasure of coming across.

quote quote I don't see how this is realivent to the topic at hand. I'll give that one to you Bill. I've been begging you to stop bringing up your military service as some sort of trump card in all discussions political and military and you are doing it. Cudos to you.

I havent mentioned my military service ONCE in this thread you imbicile. However you have as you always do in order to discredit me in some way. Which is your typical moronic MO.

quote quote Hezbollah is lucky to be able to hit ANYTHING. Their rockets and targeting systems are so outdated that it's almost commical to assert that they are "targeting" ANYTHING. The technology they are using is not "targeted" but merely aimed in the general direction of the enemy and fired off in the hope it hits something. That HARDLY qualifies as "targeting." THIS is the crux of your problem bill. You SHOULD have said, "Israel is lucky that Hezbollah can't hit anything they target". You dropped your pants Bill. Your allegence is clearly with the terrorists and not their victims.

Ohhhhhhh I see. So all arabs are terrorists? And you have the gall to accuse me of being a bigot? No Tard, you dropped your pants. Like I stated very clearly I only express the opinions I do to add what this country and the news medial LACKS on a titanic scale.. that being BALANCE. There are always two sides to a story and since you lack objective and neutral views you choose to take a side with what you affectonatly call the "Jews." I would prefer to call them what they are and that would be Arab hating "Israelies"

quote quote That would be like you in Ca calling the police in Florida claiming that I was targeting you because I pointed my gun at you. OK Bill I'm going to go way out on a limb and say, "NO". This war would be nothing like that.

Well, I am pointing a gun in your direction.. Todd.

quote quote Again Israel has SUPERIOR target IDENTIFICATION and target AQUISITION capabilities Yet somehow they "accidentaly" hit Zeinab, a 13 year old GIRL and her caravan of LEBONESE CIVILIAN REFUGEES fleaing the country in fear of their lives. "accidentally"...in quotes? Are you suggesting that Israel deliberately targets a little girl? Are you nuts? And AGAIN, what does Israel's military might have to do with anything!?!?!?! ISRAEL is the victim. HEZBOLLAH is the aggressor..the terrorist organization...the murderous regime that even the limp wristed panzy boys in the UN ordered to eb disarmed!! HEZBOLLAH - bad guys ISRAEL - good guys Clear yet?

Nope.. in my books "good guys" dont target caravans full of fleeing refugees and blow them up. Good guys kill only bad guys and leave the innocent people out of it. So no your definition is somewhat vague and lacks any kind of real definition of who is good and what is bad.

quote quote Got proof? Is it necessary? Can't you Google on your own? http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/lebano13748.htm http://www.myhabibi.net/joker/?p=291 http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/ 200607/INT20060720c.html http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20060717-020900-7956r that ought to get you started.

Thanks, I'll look it over. And no what did you google and what media outlets have you come up with? ABC, CNN? Or did you come up with Arab news today or Christian daily monitor?

quote quote Got proof it stopped ALL transmisions? Not to mention we are talking about an army that is independant of the power grid and has its OWN communications devices. And what the hell is hezbollah going to do with the airport? They have no air assets! DUH! Never said it stopped ALL transmission. In fact, Hezbollah continues to broadcast despite teh attacks. and as for assets all I can say is what YOU said, "Got proof"?

Ok.. so why blow the freaking hell out of civillian targets when it is known it wont stop communications? I know... because Israel wants to target them.

quote Iran and Syria have completely backed Hezbollah. Do you think they won't stop at giving them helicopter gun ships or MIGs? I wouldn't take that chance. War is a winner take all event. And when your existence is on the line, you play to win and you play HARD.

Yeah so? How many countries are backing the US and Israel? Like everyone has their supporters so whats your point? Are you saying that Syria is full of arabs so thats why they support Hezbollah? Well Duhhh Yeah.. rocket science!

quote quote Yes they are targeting INNOCENT CIVILIANS you simple minded jackass . Your one sided views and hatred of the Arabs is blinding you to the picture of an INNOCENT 13 year old lebonese girl that I have posted several times now. You just hate the arabs and could care less about how they are TARGETED by your Jewish friends. I don't know what kind of parents you had but they have tought you how to hate and discriminate very effectively. If find your total lack of compassion and empathy disgusting. [This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-24-2006).] well well well. The truth comes out doesn't it Bill. Too late to edit this one. I captured your hate speech in black and white. Your contribution to this thread, and any other thread on the subject of Israel and Middle East peace, is no longer required.

Atleast I can think outside the box and see where the problems for this country are stemming from. That being your hatred for all arabs and you total lack of any kind of balance in what is really going on and WHY it is going on. Arabs hate jews and jews hate arabs, arabss now hate americans because dumbasses like you are too stupid to realize that because the arabs hate jews and you like them it means they hate you.. and just because I'm (unfortunatly) an American like your stupid arrogant one sided view having dumbass, I'm just as guilty as you even though I vehemently disagree with you. Our country is in jeaprody of further attacks because you refuse to stay out of something that does not really concern you.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-24-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Ok, let me be more spacific With power come great responsibility to act in a responsible way. When responsibility is cast to the forewinds and that superior power is brought to bear upon another with indescriminent and extreme prejudice without regard, then those who wield that power, those in control of that power are reduced to nothing more than brutal, heartless thugs imposing their will upon another without any shred of human emotion. Israel has the power to target and eliminate Hezbollah missiles however it has chosen to target the Lebonese civilians and many civilian targets then claim them as stratigic military targets. IE. They are not attacking Hezbollah targets but instead are going after civillian targets.

Noble as that may sound, its not realistic. There is no realistic way to wage war without any civilians getting hurt. By that logic, any nation who's ever waged war on another was no more than a "brutal, heartless thug imposing thier will upon another without any shred of human emotion." I'll use the WWII example again. Our nation was many times the size of Japan and most certainly had more advanced weaponry. Is the country you love so dearly a pack of brutal, heartless thugs for wiping out Hiroshima and Nagasaki? We must be. See you in hell.

The sweet and simple is, Isreal is going out of thier way to attack Hezbollah militants and thier infrastructure and minimize civilian casualties. Isreal has nukes, in case you forgot. They're well within thier ability to create a glass parking lot along their northern border, but they're not doing that. Hezbollah, on the other hand, is firing rockets willy-nilly over the boarder, and let them kill who they may. Isreal declared war on Hezbollah, Hezbollah declared genocide on Jews. And you sit there and tell me Isreal is the "brutal, heartless thug." I think not.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Done about what? And what does leaving gaza have to do with this shitfest?

Leaving Gaza just shows that Israel is (was) trying to make concessions to foster the peace, but it failed. Attacks by Hamas and Hezzbollah never stopped.
What should Israel have done about the captured soldiers? You all about pointing out how wrong their actions are and seem to be sympathetic to the Hezzbollah or at least the Lebonese civilians. How would you deal with the situtation?

Reading most of your posts looks like you're only concern with Lebanon and Hezzbollah is you like to root for the underdog. Whoever has the superior forces must be evil. At least that's the impression you give.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-25-2006).]

Come on Bill... you've gone from it's not fair the Israelis are retaliating against rocket attacks to it's fair that the Hezbollah kills and kidnaps people because the Israelis have taken prisoners of others caught doing the same thing and therefore killing and kidnapping to force the release of previously captured terrorists is OK.

Yep... no solution will work for you except the death of all the Israelis in as orderly a fashion as possible.

Yep... not fair that they defend themselves at a rate where more enemies die than they do... to bad for the arab nations since if there was an even exchange rate they could just sacrifice about 6 million arabs for ALL the jews. I bet there are a few clerics out there that would consider that a good deal... it was acceptable for the Iran/Iraq wars.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Come on Bill... you've gone from it's not fair the Israelis are retaliating against rocket attacks to it's fair that the Hezbollah kills and kidnaps people because the Israelis have taken prisoners of others caught doing the same thing and therefore killing and kidnapping to force the release of previously captured terrorists is OK.

Terrorists? Oh so these people were cought on Israelie soil with bombs strapped to themselves? OK got proof?

quote Yep... no solution will work for you except the death of all the Israelis in as orderly a fashion as possible.

Your hate for arabs is quite glairing Scott and your assumption that I give a rats ass about Israelies or arabs is a rather bold and baseless statement. Like I've stated before and you just cant get through you thik head, Jews hate arabs, arabs hate jews and they have been killing each other for thousands of years. You feel that by picking a side that you can somehow stop the hate when the fact is by choosing a side you are not only helping to proogate that hatred but causing that hatred to be spred and become more and more focused on ME and I really dont want that.

quote Yep... not fair that they defend themselves at a rate where more enemies die than they do...

Yep... and screw those dirty arabs. they have no right to defend themselves against the Israelie onslought of bombs and total destruction of their infrastructure.. Nope the Lebonese people "deserve what they get" isn't that right Scott? Blame the victim for getting victimized?

quote to bad for the arab nations since if there was an even exchange rate they could just sacrifice about 6 million arabs for ALL the jews. I bet there are a few clerics out there that would consider that a good deal... it was acceptable for the Iran/Iraq wars.

And this affects your life how?
I can tell you what affects MY life with regard to the arab. Your ignorance and arrogance in combination with your undieing support of israel which in your eyes can do absolutly no wrong what so ever is what enrages the arab, thats what is a danger to MY security, thats the danger to MY nation.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: It is not reasonable to criticize them for being born Jewish you moron. If you have a problem with ISREALI politics, that is one thing, but condemning an entire race because they were born different from you makes you the ignorant one. Denying the history of Jewish occupation of their homeland and the FACTS of the holocaust makes you look like an idiot. I'd be happy to stack my knowledge of the holocaust up to yours any day. Given the lack of intellect in your statements I couldn't possibly lose that debate. Now go shave your head or something. Human beings are talking here.

History book? IS that how you got your info? BAWAHAHAHA goto bed little one you have alote to learn. Id gladly meet you in person and you can stack your arguements to me one on one. You are a major zion and it shows in your posts. You try to justify everything israel is doing includeing murder. YOU for one are a huge nazi yourself. So **** off. Oh wait I forgot you cant do any harm your jewish.

[This message has been edited by STIFFLER (edited 07-25-2006).]