As Todd mentioned earlier economic prosperity could help the region to stabalize. But how can you have economic prosperity with ignorance and rampant violence. It's a near constant state of war. Resources are few and people are plenty. They don't have much to sell and no international businesss investment will touch those countries.
Even with economic prosperity, there is still no gaurantee the religious hatred would stop. Then think of the consequences of an economically prosperous Islamofacist nation that still hates Israel. That could mean a real war, a fully armed conflict between armies instead of guerilla fighters against an army. War planes, naval ships, artillery. Holy **** would that be a total mess.
Excellent question. And not an easy one to answer. But the key element is most certainly time.
It will take time, a LOT of time. Step one is to provide the means by which the people can move from a culture of mysticism and ignorance to one of enlightenment and rationalism. This will take at least one whole generation in Iraq, for example. But if it can spread thoughout the mid east then it will be a hard force to stop. This is what the terrorists REALLY fear, that their control over people is being lost. Out of education comes rational thought. And out of rational thought comes civil discourse.
The second step is to implement investment in the stable parts of the mid east. The last major hurdle to overcome is that of natural resources. The reality is that the majority of the muslim world has 50-100 years of oil and not much else. If things are to improve then new technologies and new resources must be found. Tourism? Someday I hope. Manufacturing, Design, etc, are all possibilities but the work must begin today! They can't continue to count on big oil to prop them up and just up the price of crude to artificially demonstrate economic growth by just passing on added costs to consumers. They have to REALLY grow.
IP: Logged
02:42 PM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
Sorry not going to happen.. take a look at Afganistan.. religious persuction for even thinking. Make chairman Mao's thinking look like open gov't.
They are more than happy to live like tribsmen in mud huts.. Sorry if this offends.. but assbackwards religion ruling a country, almost wish we did start a crusade against these idiots. Take a look at what has become of Mogadishu and the surround country.. you can be stoned for watching vids and listing to music.
IP: Logged
02:46 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Hell no I don't. If I did I would be in line for the Nobel peace prize.
I support Israel and always have. I'm just giving you guys some perspective. I just can't see any way for peace in that region.
As Todd mentioned earlier economic prosperity could help the region to stabalize. But how can you have economic prosperity with ignorance and rampant violence. It's a near constant state of war. Resources are few and people are plenty. They don't have much to sell and no international businesss investment will touch those countries.
Even with economic prosperity, there is still no gaurantee the religious hatred would stop. Then think of the consequences of an economically prosperous Islamofacist nation that still hates Israel. That could mean a real war, a fully armed conflict between armies instead of guerilla fighters against an army. War planes, naval ships, artillery. Holy **** would that be a total mess.
The perspective you're giving may be based on outdated information, though. That's why I asked about the map. My point was that even given the "prime" real estate, every concession Israel has given to the Palestinians hasn't helped. The Palestinians simply want more. I don't think the location of the real estate has much to do with it.
IP: Logged
02:48 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Someone posted this in a discussion thread on Fark about the current situation in the Middle East. I didn't copy the author's name, though. I can't vouch for it's accuracy, but it's one of the more sensible explanations of why there's constant turmoil over there that I've read and why efforts to ensure peace typically fail.
"There will never be peace in the Middle East.
Arab Muslims in Middle Eastern dictatorships (with the exception of the minority of them that are raised non-traditionally by people with healthy skepticism and decent education), will always want to reduce non-Muslim parts of their society to subservience, to the status of "oppressed, voiceless minority", and expand that society -- eventually to cover the globe.
Some will want this to happen now, violently. Some will want this to happen gradually and demographically and purely voluntarily (these are your "moderates", and it's a good thing we have them). And most will fall inbetween the two extremes.
But they'll all want it because it's inculcated into them from their culture and their religion, which divides the world into two "spheres" called Dar al Islam and Dar al Jihad: The sphere (or domain) of Islam, and the sphere (or domain) of war.
As a theological truism, these persons believe that once a region is under the control of a Muslim majority, it becomes part of the "Islamic World" and will never go back. Not should never, but will never. Because, of course, they believe that God himself dictated the governmental structure and laws of sharia to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and they represent, not the best government and laws of that era, but the best government and laws that it will ever be possible to decree. Ever. Muhammad (BYOB) started, not just a religion, but a political takeover of the world on God's behalf, which can be delayed in its implementation by infidels, but certainly not rolled back. From the time of the Prophet (UFIA) to today, God is the author of every Islamic takeover, every imposition of sharia.
Under this theory, the existence of Israel is inexplicable, of course. Jews? Actually in positions of authority? Actually prospering? In the regions dominated by Muslims in the 1500's? Around an important mosque? Not being oppressed, killed outright, or paying the jizya? Impossible; God would never allow it. Perhaps briefly, just as a fluke. If this Jew-haven can be returned to Muslim rule quickly enough, why then, we'll just call it a brief interruption in Dar al Islam. Because of course Dar al Islam can't every shrink. That would mean something was wrong with our belief system; that there isn't some kind of Muslim Manifest Destiny ordained by God. Naw. Not worth considering.
That's half the problem.
The other half is the imperial history of the Caliphate, and the expectation of all humans to expect that any trend which has continued as long as they can remember, is therefore going to continue forever.
Every culture has a self-picture, of course. And from the 6th century to the 16th century, the Arabs (under the banner of Islam) were conquering what was, to them, the known world. They also had excellent command of commerce, science, and administration. From Mecca and Medina, they expanded to Spain, and to Indonesia. They encountered the backward, stinking barbarians in Europe, and usually conquered them, too, whenever they put their minds to it, nearly taking Vienna. The Caliphate expanded, always out-doing other cultures it encountered. Oh sure, the Arabic numeral system actually came from India, and there were a few inventions here and there from non-Muslims. But those were flukes. Nobody denies barbarians can occasionally be clever and come up with something worthwhile...but the Caliphate was the apotheosis of culture, of advancement.
And then something went wrong. The stinking barbarians kept coming up with more advancements. By the 18th century their ships dwarfed those made by the Arabs, Persians, and Turks, and were traveling longer distances. Arabia became a way-station along the trade-routes, instead of the center of the earth's economic gravity. What was this? Surely a mere interruption.
Then a series of humiliating colonizations from Europe...by Europeans who were clearly wealthier, with better-educated scholars, scientists, engineers. Impossible! Where were these benighted barbarians coming up with all this stuff?
There was French rule. British rule. The Nazis made good allies during wartime, in theory, because they seemed less interested in empire than in defeating the French and British, which was fine by the Arabs and Turks. But then the Nazis lost, too.
The Muslim world still believes in its right to rule. But it believes its birthright has somehow evaporated. Fairly? No, of course not: It must have been stolen by those non-Muslim heathen barbarians (but say that word more quietly, these days). It's their fault. Or maybe it was a mistake made by certain Muslims.
Maybe the mistake was...failing to modernize our economic systems? That must be it! Let's send lots of Muslim scholars to Europe to learn their economics and their administrative tactics!
(Sadly, this happened just about the time that the intellectual elite in Europe started abandoning the principles of 18th-century classical liberalism in favor of planned-economies and central control. Had the Arabs quested for economic advice a century earlier, they'd have gotten capitalism. Instead, they got Marxism. Oops. Here come the Baathists (Socialism) of Iraq and Syria, Egyptian National Socialism, not far different from the German variety... oops, again.)
So now what's left?
A whole culture, a whole fallen civilization, of people nursing the grudge of having had their birthright (world dominance) stolen by heathens they once considered beneath their notice, save as subjects. Who've seen themselves eclipsed by these heathens in every possible way: Economic power, military power, cultural dominance, lifestyle, personal freedom.
Who all share a religion predicting the expansion of their empire at the expense of said heathens. Who, if they resist, are to be killed; and if they submit, are to be forced to pay extra taxes for the privilege of being allowed to live.
Who all share a gigantic sense of grievance, combined with an inferiority complex, which manifests itself (through the macho Arab cultural template) as radical bravado and militancy.
Oh, yeah.
There'll be peace in the Middle East.
Five minutes after the sun becomes a red giant."
IP: Logged
02:56 PM
trailboss Member
Posts: 2069 From: Gilbert, Arizona Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: The problem isn't just territorial. It's also religious. Israel control the holy land. The heart of 3 major religions. Also, Israel is on the Mediterranean sea which is super prime real estate. It's not just any piece of land. I'm happy to have Isaeli's there. I'm just saying that those other maps are lacking perspective.
Modern Islam claims that Jerusalem is a holy place to them, that is a modern fabrication. The truth is that the Arabs expressed very limited interest in the Temple Mount before 1967 after the Six-Day War. Besides, Mecca and Medina (both in Saudi Arabia) are Islam's holiest cities. Islamofascist's will say anything and do anything to see that their jewfree Utopian dreams will be realized.
Archeological sites to this very day continue to yield artifacts with Hebrew writing, not some fictitious "Palestinian" or Arabic text! The so-called "Palestinian" Arabs were simply then, as they are now, Arabs no different culturally, historically or ethnically from other Arabs living in any of the 24 Arab countries from which they emigrated. The suggestion that the "Palestinians" are some sub-group of Arabs with their own unique identity is pure fiction! Great propaganda... but still pure fiction! And had not the Arabs continued to brainwash generation upon generation into believing this HISTORICAL HOGWASH about some ancient "Arab Palestinian" ties to the Holy Land, most could have gotten themselves a real life by now with much less bloodshed and suffering for everyone concerned!
[This message has been edited by trailboss (edited 07-15-2006).]
Originally posted by under8ted: I'm old enough to remember when the nightly news refered to them as the occupied territories.......much more accurate than the modern "sanitized" version of history with thier "disputed territories" label. It aint me thats the revisionist---for that you need to look at groups like b'nai brith or the modern doublespeak media.
under8ted: Have a look at the link in the post above, that's why the stuff that you talk about is revisionist, it's pure propoganda and you have bought into it hook line and sinker all because of your dislike (hatred perhaps) of Israel.
trailboss: Than's an excellent site, thanks!
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 07-15-2006).]
IP: Logged
06:04 PM
Jul 16th, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there."
I bet you Freemasons, Rotary and Lions didn't know you were sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests... Bet you also didn't know you were mentioned by name in the Hamas Charter as the enemy.
IP: Logged
02:10 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I bet you Freemasons, Rotary and Lions didn't know you were sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests... Bet you also didn't know you were mentioned by name in the Hamas Charter as the enemy.
Does anyone need more proof that those people are NUTS???
IP: Logged
03:32 AM
PFF
System Bot
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3152 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
When the U.S. presence is not helping the Israelis, they are just as quick to turn on us as anyone else is. Maybe living one's entire life in a war zone contributes to that kind of thinking, but I do feel any and all US aid to Israel should have abruptly ended with the sinking of the USS Liberty.
IP: Logged
11:48 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
When the U.S. presence is not helping the Israelis, they are just as quick to turn on us as anyone else is. Maybe living one's entire life in a war zone contributes to that kind of thinking, but I do feel any and all US aid to Israel should have abruptly ended with the sinking of the USS Liberty.
Efforts were made to explain it... conspiracy theories abound. Israel apologized immediately and paid a $6 million dollar settlement. All the conspiracy stuff is pushed by those on the ship and others with agendas. Those on the ship I can understand, I'd be pissed off if I and my shipmates were shot up like that. The others are after something else that 40 years later they are still harping on one ship getting fired on IN A WARZONE.
If the conspiracy theorists are right and Israel fired on the ship because they thought they were recording troop movements and were going to relay that info to the British who would relay it to the Arabs, costing possibly thousands of Israeli lives... I think what they did was still justified. Not to us, or the personnel on that ship, but they were military personnel onboard a military ship... yes in international waters, but in a warzone. How could they have made a mistake like they claim? The reports emphasize that the Liberty was a unique ship, one of only two in existance. If your trying to ID a ship and it's new and unique but your flash cards show a ship with the same shape that is known to be operated by the enemy.. what are you going to figure it is?
It wasn't a surprise attack like Pearl Harbor as alluded to... this was a ship in dangerous waters, not sitting in it's homeport.
Same people aren't looking for some more investigations into the shooting down of an Iranian passenger airliner 20 years ago when we entered Iranian waters and misidentified an Airbus A300B2 as an F-14 Tomcat...
Since we have those holding a grudge over a 40 year old incident that took place during a full fledged war, can we maybe understand those holding a grudge when we keep doing similar things or worse on a repeated basis? Israel had one incident one time 40 years ago... how many 'accidental' attacks have we mistargetted/made in that time period? Medicine factories, Chinese Embassies, civilian aircraft, yada yada...
In opposition to the position I took with holocaust survivors still trying to get justice/reparations, I say let it go. It wasn't part of a pattern, it was one incident 4 decades ago that was part of a war, not an atrocity committed on innocent civilians like Arabs groups commit daily.
IP: Logged
11:32 PM
Jul 17th, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Interesting how the international community never gets involved in Israeli affairs until they respond with force to attacks.
Now that they have invaded southern Lebanon, talk begins about bringing an international force in to supress the attacks on Israel so that Israel will pull out. Nothing mentioned about stopping the attacks from Gaza that continue non stop though... it's just that Israeli forces are on Arab soil, so we now have a problem that needs to be contained?
Just saw that Iran is getting behind a "prisoner exchange" and Israeli withdrawal... imagine that. Sort of that "Woo... it was fine when we were the ones inflicting damage on Israel with terror attacks, but now there are Israeli troops doing something about it and we need to reset the board... can we have our terrorists back?"
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 07-17-2006).]
IP: Logged
09:37 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Just saw that Iran is getting behind a "prisoner exchange" and Israeli withdrawal... imagine that. Sort of that "Woo... it was fine when we were the ones inflicting damage on Israel with terror attacks, but now there are Israeli troops doing something about it and we need to reset the board... can we have our terrorists back?"
It's a shame we have to be so civilized. If we were willing to go a little "lower", we could use some serious psy-ops on terrorists. Bury the dead ones in pig guts, stuff like that, which would scare the crap out of the muslim extremists.
IP: Logged
12:14 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by fierobear: It's a shame we have to be so civilized. If we were willing to go a little "lower", we could use some serious psy-ops on terrorists. Bury the dead ones in pig guts, stuff like that, which would scare the crap out of the muslim extremists.
My thoughts exactly. I'm tired of the western world (especially us) trying to be politically correct. Screw 'em. These people aren't playing. It's time that we stopped playing.
Heck. It would actually be fairly easy. All we'd have to do is make a video that purported to show pig blood being sprayed on our ammo, and incorporated into cavities in our shells and bombs. Even if we didn't really do it. Talk about terror.
IP: Logged
12:57 PM
cccharlie Member
Posts: 2006 From: North Smithfield, RI Registered: Jan 2003
Originally posted by fierobear: It's a shame we have to be so civilized. If we were willing to go a little "lower", we could use some serious psy-ops on terrorists. Bury the dead ones in pig guts, stuff like that, which would scare the crap out of the muslim extremists.
Origins: The desire for simplistic solutions to complex problems has spawned several widely-circulated messages of late which seek to transform a fight against terrorism to the easily-manageable level of a horror film or a comic strip. Today's popular notion is the concept that a pig is to a Muslim as a crucifix is to a vampire — simply arm yourself with a porker, and you can use it to render even the most fanatical terrorist helpless, sending him cowering in fear lest he come into contact with anything porcine.
Such notions reduce an extremely widespread and diverse religion — and the people who follow it — to a monolithic entity with a single set of beliefs and rules to which everyone adheres.
[This message has been edited by cccharlie (edited 07-17-2006).]
IP: Logged
01:17 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by cccharlie: Such notions reduce an extremely widespread and diverse religion — and the people who follow it — to a monolithic entity with a single set of beliefs and rules to which everyone adheres.
Sort of like "Kill the infidels! And if you're not one of us you're an infidel!". What we're saying is not any more silly (or wrong) than what they're saying. ----------------------------------------------------
Actually, I took the time to look at the document that you linked.
At the very top it says Status: Undetermined.
If you go on to read the entire thing, it illustrates several Pro and Con theories. They all seem to address wrapping the the body in pigskin after the person is killed. It never makes a mention (other than the original lead-in) about Muslim reaction to dipping bullets in blood.
While the Muslims (according to the story) believe that the soul goes to Heaven, and is unaffected by what happens to the body afterward, it never mentions the proposition that pig blood (or any other part for that matter) is unclean, and that if a Muslim is touched by it, that he must go through a purification ritual before he can enter Heaven. Obviously if he is killed by an "unclean" bullet, it's too late.
I don't claim to know what they really think. Just points for possible discussion.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-17-2006).]
IP: Logged
01:55 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20709 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
I heard a statement on the radio yesterday. We ( American) try to always do things the way that pizzes nobody off.....Israel does what needs done and dont give a damn about what ANYONE thinks or says about it. Again, I say this is the WAY WE SHOULD BE.
IP: Logged
03:38 PM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Interesting how nobody seemed to decry the "dead arab child" comment. Do people really think that it's acceptable to kill civilians and children as a byproduct of war? If so, that's truly sad.
James, do I infer from this that you do not agree with our decision to use the Bomb in WWII?
IP: Logged
05:29 PM
G-Nasty Member
Posts: 2099 From: woodlands,TX,USA Registered: Jan 2001
I heard a statement on the radio yesterday. We ( American) try to always do things the way that pizzes nobody off.....Israel does what needs done and dont give a damn about what ANYONE thinks or says about it. Again, I say this is the WAY WE SHOULD BE.
We cannot go around killing women & children etc. We are a superpower and must act like one. We cannot go around killing and invading other lands because of our interests (when I say our I mean the people w/ power in this country). Besides, our beloved CIA, NSA, FINCEN, World Banks, Corporations etc. already have ruined the lives of so many people far away. Africa & Venezuela are prime examples. We tried to kill Chavez and overtake his oil control. The CIA mucked up and now he has a huge following of people who hate the U.S. for trying to kill him. That is been a growing trend once uneducated natives findout thier lands and heads of states are being grabbed. Columbia has American soldiers protecting pipelines. Iraq has American soldiers protecting pipelines. In Nigeria, townspeople kidnapped oil execs. The media TV & papers never made it a point to explain why. Those terrorists were sick of the bribes thru U.S. channels & wanted that oil co to employ people in that area.
With capitalism and privatization in mind, the U.S. and Western influences are always meddling in others affairs and resources.
Roger tends to think that its the other way around.
Give them thier wars. Pay thier high prices. They own us. & save that "we need to be like Israel" speech to inbred gung-ho tards
OUT>
[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 07-17-2006).]
James, do I infer from this that you do not agree with our decision to use the Bomb in WWII?
The circumstances are completely and irreconcilably different, but you knew that.
The decision to use the atomic bomb was a terrible one to make, I doubt few people then and now would have the moral and mental strength to make that decision, either way.
The war with Japan was a war against a nation, an entity that was fairly clearly defined and against whom we had a fair amount of experience, successful I might add, in fighting. The decision to drop the first bomb at Hiroshima was justified in my opinion. It clearly showed Japan that we could utterly destroy them and that they had no chance to win anything from the war. However, our failure to understand the finer points of the way the leadership functioned in Japanese royal society led us to assume (incorrectly as it turned out) that the Japanese weren't going to surrender, so we dropped a second, and IMHO unneccesary bomb on Nagasaki. That bomb was a tragedy because it was unneeded.
Now, as to killing children, the problem I have with Israel is the fact that they are deliberatly and wantonly targeting civilians in Lebanon. They are rationalizing their tactical decisions, but in the end they are punishing the civilians regardless of whether they support Hezbollah or not. Israel just doesn't care.
That's the problem.
Every single innocent killed by Israel creates yet more hatred toward them and perceived "western" support of Israel's actions. If you're holding your baby in your arms with her bloody intestines looped to the ground you just don't give a flying f*ck about Israel's "justifications". You're not going to forgive them, you're for sure going to hate them for the rest of your life, especially as you see over the weeks, months, and years that it's the same old sh*t just a different day.
That's basic. It's hardwired into most everyone. You kill mine, I'll kill you. In cultures where law and civilized order have broken down like it has in the middle east that translates into literal violence.
Israel has stooped to the level of the people who use the method of terror, by using military force to inspire terror in the minds of civilians.
I'm sorry that so many people just don't get it.
Or choose deliberately not to.
I bet you cash money that you would use the method of terror to fight an enemy that invaded this country, if it came to that. If you claim you wouldn't you'd be lying.
You can't fight this kind of war with weapons, the only way to win that way is to utterly kill everybody on the "other" side.
JazzMan
IP: Logged
06:43 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Well, the circumstances are different... but your sentence did not qualify for that. "Do people really think that it's acceptable to kill civilians and children as a byproduct of war? If so, that's truly sad."
And that wasn't a personal attack, but then again, you knew that. Our ramblings have never taken us to the Bomb, so I got curious.
I do agree, BTW, but I don't know if there is a way around it. The only way is for human nature to embrace peace, and that's not gonna happen. Territorial and mis-trusting... that is what I percieve we (humans) are all about.
both sides employ the stronge-arm tactic over and over it only "WORKS" short term
long range solutions are needed but they come at a very high cost we [the USA] bribed egypt and jordan out of direct war and pay massive amounts to the jewish state but have only done very limited attempts to rase the arab holylanders living condisions and hopes now stoped because we didnot like the last election result perhaps if the living standerds were near equal and the oppertunitys were in place to give hope to the arab people unlike the current massive unimployment and poverty
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
IP: Logged
07:38 PM
moleman_in_a_FieroGT Member
Posts: 792 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Apr 2006
... Every single innocent killed by Israel creates yet more hatred toward them and perceived "western" support of Israel's actions. If you're holding your baby in your arms with her bloody intestines looped to the ground you just don't give a flying f*ck about Israel's "justifications". You're not going to forgive them, you're for sure going to hate them for the rest of your life, especially as you see over the weeks, months, and years that it's the same old sh*t just a different day.
That's basic. It's hardwired into most everyone. You kill mine, I'll kill you. In cultures where law and civilized order have broken down like it has in the middle east that translates into literal violence.
... JazzMan
Now, if you turn that around you see why Israel is doing this. For decades, these people have been attacking Israel. Launching rockets, bombing busses, slaughtering the Olympic team, etc... So the Isrealites have this hatred against Hezbollah and the percieved support of the Arab nations. I could go on...
Now, under normal conditions it is not acceptable for a nation to kill civilians. However, if a militant hides behind his family, what are your options? -Wait until he's alone? The US did that on Osama. He was spotted hunting with an important person from Saudi Arabia, and out of courtesy they didn't bomb his camp. And so Osama is still out there, preaching... And besides, the militant's son will have that hatred in him and will turn out to be just like his father. -Leave him alone? Yeah, that'll work. Let him keep on fighting against you. Let him blow up a bus full of people. -Take him out when you have a chance? If he chooses to endanger his family, he's a bad family leader.
Now, you do realize that Israel isn't nuking every square inch of Lebanon, right? They are not specifically targeting civilians. They target militants. Militants who are cowardly enough to hide behind their families.
IP: Logged
08:23 PM
Jul 18th, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Yep, as usual the Israelis are the bad guys and the terrorists attacking them can't be blamed.
I was watching CBC and BBC coverage earlier... one guy fleeing Beirut blamed Israel because in his words "I don't give a damn about Hezbollah attacking Israel, they shouldn't be punishing me because of what the militia does!" Another family fleeing (a common Arab trend when Israel counterattacks) was cheering the Hezbollah, saying they were going to wipe out Israel and kill all the jews.
Coverage from Lebanon dwelled on the Lebanese civilian casualties, not on the fact that Hezbollah was firing their rockets from civilian areas, not that Israel was targetting military objectives as opposed to Hezbollah who has been targetting civilians from the beginning. There were no videos of the destroyed Hezbollah rocket launcher facilities... but plenty of shots of a young arab girl injured. We can't accept that yet it's a daily occurance in our war in Iraq where somewhere between 30K and 100K civilians have been killed. In Lebanon the casualties are about 200 on both sides and the UN better get in there. Things we do are unfortunate when it occurs, unacceptable if Israel does it, understandable when Arabs do it.
Someone explain those crazy jews... please.
They keep trying to achieve peace, give up land, keep an open society, keep building better lives for themselves. They provide medical aid to those who try to kill them, etc etc... They continue to have hope, stand their ground, look forward to a future where they can live in peace with those around them.
Explain those crazy arabs.... please.
They keep blaming the jews for not wanting to negotiate peace while they continue to kidnap them, fire hundreds of rockets a day at them, blow up suicide bombers in their markets, schools, nightclubs. They wail at the loss of their children when they fire their rockets from beachs and parks and housing areas, when they put their bomb factories in the middle of a housing area. They shout about how wrong the Israelis are for not giving them more and more while shouting from everywhere that their intention is to kill every single one of them. They shout out their brave words of death to the enemy while running away.
Hezbollah has used rockets that can basically strike any city in Israel now, it's not just a border skirmishes anymore. Israel has the choice of letting their country be used for nonstop target practice or take out the threat. If Mexico or Canada wasn't in control of it's borders with the US and a military group was firing hundreds of rockets a day into Tucson, Phoenix, San Diego, Seattle... what do you think we'd do? Show restraint? Negotiate? Give them international funding? Call for UN intervention? Give them lands?
Scott, sounds like the same sort of coverage as on our CBC network. They keep reporting the tens upon tens of "innocent Lebonese civilians" killed while casually making mention of the mounting deaths in the Jewish state as just "Israeli's". Not "innocent Israeli civilians", just plain Israeli's. The media bias up here sometimes is just sickening.
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 07-18-2006).]
All Israilies are soldiers. They are conscripted at the age of 17 - 18 and serve one to two years. In other words they are a militant society.
quote
Originally posted by loafer87gt: Scott, sounds like the same sort of coverage as on our CBC network. They keep reporting the tens upon tens of "innocent Lebonese civilians" killed while casually making mention of the mounting deaths in the Jewish state as just "Israeli's". Not "innocent Israeli civilians", just plain Israeli's. The media bias up here sometimes is just sickening.
IP: Logged
06:20 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
We cannot go around killing women & children etc. We are a superpower and must act like one. We cannot go around killing and invading other lands because of our interests (when I say our I mean the people w/ power in this country). Besides, our beloved CIA, NSA, FINCEN, World Banks, Corporations etc. already have ruined the lives of so many people far away. Africa & Venezuela are prime examples. We tried to kill Chavez and overtake his oil control. The CIA mucked up and now he has a huge following of people who hate the U.S. for trying to kill him. That is been a growing trend once uneducated natives findout thier lands and heads of states are being grabbed. Columbia has American soldiers protecting pipelines. Iraq has American soldiers protecting pipelines. In Nigeria, townspeople kidnapped oil execs. The media TV & papers never made it a point to explain why. Those terrorists were sick of the bribes thru U.S. channels & wanted that oil co to employ people in that area.
With capitalism and privatization in mind, the U.S. and Western influences are always meddling in others affairs and resources.
Roger tends to think that its the other way around.
Give them thier wars. Pay thier high prices. They own us. & save that "we need to be like Israel" speech to inbred gung-ho tards
OUT>
Whos the ' tard '........? You would rather let anyone terrorize anyone they feel like and just take it. Every other power on the planet run over us because they know our government dont want to hurt their feelings so they dont do anything but make speeches. All your buddies in Hasballa and Al Quida (not worth the bother of looking up spelling) dont give a rats azz about the women and children they murder. At least when we or Israelies target someone....its not to get women and kids. If they happen to be there, usually for the terrorists protection btw, they chose it and so be it. Me gung ho......not really.....just tired of the crap like Israel. If I was president Israel would be the only reason the whole damn region isnt a nuclear wasteland.
The terrorists are like cancer, they multiply faster and faster without treatment and the only possible cure is to cut it out.
You and people like you are what I consider the ' tards ' because you dont try to do anything about it except lead your own little grubby lives with your heads buried in the sand to protect yourself. That just leaves your butt exposed so your friends can kiss it.
If I was president Israel would be the only reason the whole damn region isnt a nuclear wasteland.
The terrorists are like cancer, they multiply faster and faster without treatment and the only possible cure is to cut it out.
You and people like you are what I consider the ' tards ' because you dont try to do anything about it except lead your own little grubby lives with your heads buried in the sand to protect yourself. That just leaves your butt exposed so your friends can kiss it.
So it would be better to burry your head up the US governments ass who has it's head burried up Israels ass then get all bent out of shape when an enemy of israel flies a few airplanes up your ass?
Sounds like a really great idea roger.
If I were president israel and all of its wall kissing head banging retards would be leveled along with all those left handed shitwhipin camel jockeys followed by a simple message.
"We owe you nothing."
IP: Logged
07:57 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
People who wont do anything that might ruffle feeling are the ones that brought you Pearl Harbor..........I dont have anything more to say, everyone knows my stance now. Maybe Israel should use some of those dozens of ' Bunker Buster' bombs we gave them since Iran is handing the terrorists theirs , to blow a no mans land between them. Hazwhatevers would be too busy attending funerals to fight anymore.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-18-2006).]
Happened upon this when Googling for some information regarding the 'wealth' of Israel.Like everything, it is possible to select some points and whole-heartedly agree...such as lotteries, pornography, cosmetics etc.etc...the rest? Well...Having tasted relative freedom in the way I choose to run my life, and excercising reasonable restraint in so doing, I don't think I need anything/anyone to control me.That being said, I can look around and see many who DO need it.. Nick EDit: just read it again and again...and it is pure SI-I it, apart from the morals aspect, which I do agree with.There has to be a Human to link between any God and civilisation..unless that God appears in Person, and stays.and that will never happen....and because of Man's inbuilt weakness, it can't work, any more than Communism.
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 07-18-2006).]
People who wont do anything that might ruffle feeling are the ones that brought you Pearl Harbor..........I dont have anything more to say, everyone knows my stance now. Maybe Israel should use some of those dozens of ' Bunker Buster' bombs we gave them since Iran is handing the terrorists theirs , to blow a no mans land between them. Hazwhatevers would be too busy attending funerals to fight anymore.
Yeah, you are refering to all those Americans who didn't want to be involved in other countries crap fest while the government flagrently ignored them and got involved anyway (because it was profitable) thereby pissing off the enemy of our "friends", an enemy who then bombed pearl harbor.
Our arrogance and ignorance is no protection.... kind of like you were saying above and I agreed with. Burry you head in whatever ass or "sand" you want, the result will be exactly the same. The japs shoved it up our asses 60 years ago and the sand roaches did it to us just a few years ago.
When this kind of stupidity happens to the same generation twice it's pretty obvious that lead base paint was a bad idea.
IP: Logged
09:46 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
All Israilies are soldiers. They are conscripted at the age of 17 - 18 and serve one to two years. In other words they are a militant society.
Wow... so any country with a mandatory service period is a militant society. Does that include Finland? Bermuda? Denmark? Mexico? Norway? Sweden? Switzerland? There are at least 33 countries with mandatory military service, Israel and Lebanon are both on the list, Israel's military is the Israeli Defense Force. They make it mandatory that the people are the ones defending themselves and that fresh blood enters the ranks constantly, that is a deterrent to military coups and politicians willing to toss away their lives for little reason. That means that every citizen is capable of picking up a weapon and defending themselves. That's a bit different from being a militant society, I'd consider North Korea, the old Soviet Union, China etc militant societies. Societies where the emphasis of life is on military power.. the display of it, the subjegation of everything else to the needs/wants of the military.
Wow... so any country with a mandatory service period is a militant society. Does that include Finland? Bermuda? Denmark? Mexico? Norway? Sweden? Switzerland? There are at least 33 countries with mandatory military service, Israel and Lebanon are both on the list, Israel's military is the Israeli Defense Force. They make it mandatory that the people are the ones defending themselves and that fresh blood enters the ranks constantly, that is a deterrent to military coups and politicians willing to toss away their lives for little reason. That means that every citizen is capable of picking up a weapon and defending themselves. That's a bit different from being a militant society, I'd consider North Korea, the old Soviet Union, China etc militant societies. Societies where the emphasis of life is on military power.. the display of it, the subjegation of everything else to the needs/wants of the military.
The media bias up here sometimes is just sickening.
