Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Now lets look at the United States. Widely considered a very religious Christian nation. George Bush has repeatedly used the word "crusade" when referring to the war on terror and the war in Iraq. We are on the inside looking out. So we have a different view of our own actions than the outside world. Many in the middle east look at us and think, the great Christian power wants our land and resources. Here they are in Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Dubai, and Turkey with military installations. To them it looks like a crusade, and when our president uses words like crusade or says he listens to a higher power when deciding whether to invade Iraq, well it feels like a crusade.
Score... finally some outside the box thinking. I completely support this part of his post... For the rest of it.... eh...
I was referring to long past events like the crusades. My point is that we don't know what the future holds, just like western civilization rose high hen fell into the medieval period. We can have a similar future if there happened to be a massive plague or a nuclear war.
Other than that I get your point. Christian fundies aren't nearly as dangerous as Muslim fundies. Neither are Jewish fundies.
But if you look at history, even recent history you wouldn't be saying that. For instance, Israel's ex Prime Minister who signed the Oslo accords with the Egyptian leader Sabat.
"Yitzhak Rabin (help·info) (Hebrew: éÄöÀçÈ÷ øÈáÄÌéï), (March 1, 1922 – November 4, 1995) was an Israeli politician and general. He was the fifth Prime Minister of Israel from 1974 until 1977 and again from 1992 until his assassination in 1995 by Yigal Amir, a right-wing activist who had strenuously opposed Rabin's signing of the Oslo Accords."
"In 1981, Anwar el-Sadat, the Egyptian leader who signed the accords along with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, was assassinated by Islamic extremists"
So both leaders were assassinated by the right wing of their own countries. Because they fought for peace and won it, at least temporarily.
You also would have to look at how Israel came to be. It was carved out by Jewish migrants seeking to establish their own country. The Arabs fought back at every turn, but the Jews kept coming in waves. They bought the land and when they were attacked, they would counter attack and keep the land they won in the battles. So although I respect the establishment of Israel and even the tenacity of the people who created it. I also understand that it was a violent birth. The violence started way back in the late 1800's, and it continues to this day. Israel may have been internationally recognized after WWII, but it's people were already there in large settlements fighting the Arabs. SO much so that the British tried restricting immigration into Palestine and tried to restrict land acquisition by the Jewish new comers. It upset the local Arab population and made it hard for the British to control.
Now lets look at the United States. Widely considered a very religious Christian nation. George Bush has repeatedly used the word "crusade" when referring to the war on terror and the war in Iraq. We are on the inside looking out. So we have a different view of our own actions than the outside world. Many in the middle east look at us and think, the great Christian power wants our land and resources. Here they are in Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Dubai, and Turkey with military installations. To them it looks like a crusade, and when our president uses words like crusade or says he listens to a higher power when deciding whether to invade Iraq, well it feels like a crusade.
The idea of creating a Jewish State after WWII had wide appeal since the entire world was riddled with guilt over the Holocaust. We could debate the details of whether or not it was a good idea for ever. I don't want to revisit this decision although I must admit that I would not have done it if I were my decision. The fact remains that Isreal is a recognized soveriegn nation and just as America was cut from someone else's cloth once, looking back doesn't change the fact that we are here now and so is Isreal.
I don't defend Bush's use of the word "Crusade". I don't think it helps his cause. But it is a trivial point. It doesn't change the fact that these tensions between the Arabs and Jews have roots much deeper and older than the President. Pointing it out is like pointing to the poor design of the lifejackets in the Titanic tragedy. Yes, they could have been designed better so as not to snap people's necks when they jumped into the water but those people would have died anyway in the freezing water so what's the point of bringing it up.
The fact is that there is only ONE chance for Peace in the Middle East and that is democracy. Economic prosperity has a way of taking the fight out of people. We are starting to see that here at home. Look at the comments of Bill Cosby lately. Here is an economically affluent man who came from a VERY poor background. He is telling African Americans now that if you want to remove your anger stop blaming "whitey" and take advantage of the opportunities to become stronger. It is working....slowly. African Americans are starting to become more economically equal. And when that happens for most Black people the NAACP will be out of a job. The point being that when you are living large you rarely feel oppressed and angry. And the only way we can achieve that in the world is by the removal, once and for all, of despots and the installation of governments dedicated to the concept that the people make the decisions for themselves.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 07-14-2006).]
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12:13 PM
MDFierolvr Member
Posts: 2025 From: Great Mills, MD Registered: Mar 2004
The idea of creating a Jewish State after WWII had wide appeal since the entire world was riddled with guilt over the Holocaust. We could debate the details of whether or not it was a good idea for ever. I don't want to revisit this decision although I must admit that I would not have done it if I were my decision. The fact remains that Isreal is a recognized soveriegn nation and just as America was cut from someone else's cloth once, looking back doesn't change the fact that we are here now and so is Isreal.
I'm not criticizing how they came to be or passing judgement on their current response. I, in fact support Israel's decision to eradicate Hezbollah from the Southern region of Lebanon.
quote
I don't defend Bush's use of the word "Crusade". I don't think it helps his cause. But it is a trivial point. It doesn't change the fact that these tensions between the Arabs and Jews have roots much deeper and older than the President. Pointing it out is like pointing to the poor design of the lifejackets in the Titanic tragedy. Yes, they could have been designed better so as not to snap people's necks when they jumped into the water but those people would have died anyway in the freezing water so what's the point of bringing it up.
I think you missed thepoint on this one. I'm saying that it may not seem to us like we are fanning the flames or directly involved. But we are, or at the very least percieved as a major religious player with designs on the region.
quote
The fact is that there is only ONE chance for Peace in the Middle East and that is democracy. Economic prosperity has a way of taking the fight out of people.
This is where I have to stop you. You are referring to the neoconservative foreign policy. Topple these bad states and replace them with Democracy. It seems like a good idea, and in some cases it IS a good idea. But as Iraq is showing us so vividly, it doesn't always work. Especially without the help of the UN or on the cheap. And certainly not when it is done for economic and military posturing reasons.
If we want to take a deeper look, we need only to look at Palestine. They had their first real Democratic election and what happened? They elected the terrorist organization Hamas. Hamas declares that Israel does not have the right to exist and should be attacked by any means necessary. The people elected these murderers to represent them.
There has to be genuine respect and good will towards these peoples before we can expect that they will be happy to accept our form of government. The way to win them to our side is through strong leadership and strategic quiet intelligence and military moves. Large scale regime change with a seedy agenda fosters resentment, hate, and more extremeists willing to fight us at every turn.
quote
We are starting to see that here at home. Look at the comments of Bill Cosby lately. Here is an economically affluent man who came from a VERY poor background. He is telling African Americans now that if you want to remove your anger stop blaming "whitey" and take advantage of the opportunities to become stronger. It is working....slowly. African Americans are starting to become more economically equal. And when that happens for most Black people the NAACP will be out of a job. The point being that when you are living large you rarely feel oppressed and angry. And the only way we can achieve that in the world is by the removal, once and for all, of despots and the installation of governments dedicated to the concept that the people make the decisions for themselves.
I think this argument is off base with this discussion. The plight of African Americans is very different from that of peoples living under Islamic controlled religious states or dictatorships. It serves only to paint all peoples with the neoconservative brush. People are different. Some people want religious controlled states. Ask Jerry Falwell or James Dobson.
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12:55 PM
under8ted Member
Posts: 1108 From: Sparta, ON, Canada Registered: Mar 2006
Where did you get your revisionist history education?
I'm old enough to remember when the nightly news refered to them as the occupied territories.......much more accurate than the modern "sanitized" version of history with thier "disputed territories" label. It aint me thats the revisionist---for that you need to look at groups like b'nai brith or the modern doublespeak media.
And a band of militants crossing the border into Israel and killing, destory, and kidnapping soliders and an army unit, then run back into Lebanon is NOT considered an invasion of a sovereign nation with a freely and legitimately elected democratic leadership?
Why the double standard?
Did Howard Dean and Air America Radio tell you to hate Israel? It's it a Bush Plan and therefore Bush's fault?
Ok, so using your logic, if a band of Crips or Bloods crosses over into Mexico and kills/kidnaps Mexican soldiers and an army unit and then run back into America it's perfectly acceptible for Mexico to defend itself by attack America.
Do you even bother to parse what you write or is it just stream of consciousness to keyboard, like a bad case of mental diarhea?
No double standard.
I don't know about Dean or Air America Radio since I have never heard even one episode of the latter and have actually never heard any of the former's speakings or read his writings.
Nice of you to assume something that's incorrect. You know the old saying, ass, u, me...
JazzMan
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 07-14-2006).]
Originally posted by Toddster: A noble thought but even if possible the Isrealis wouldn't go for it for one main reason, for 4500 years they have been kicked around from opne place to the other because they are "different". It's racism pure and simple. This is their homeland, JUST as much as it is the Palestinians. The lesson here is NOT to keep shuffling the Jews off to some other place where they will feel like outsiders but to get Arabs and Jews to put aside age old predjudices and just learn to live together like human beings.
Remember, even Isaac and Ishmeal came together in the end over their father's death.
In another 4,300 years the Native Americans will come back and take their land back, creating their own country in the middle of America, and along the borders as well since that was all theirs too.
Hehehe...
JazzMan
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01:57 PM
moleman_in_a_FieroGT Member
Posts: 792 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Apr 2006
Originally posted by JazzMan: Ok, so using your logic, if a band of Crips or Bloods crosses over into Mexico and kills/kidnaps Mexican soldiers and an army unit and then run back into America it's perfectly acceptible for Mexico to defend itself by attack America.
JazzMan
It's already been done, but in reverse. 90 years ago the US sent 20,000 troops into Mexico to hunt down Francisco Villa (aka Pancho Villa). Judging by how no one cried out, I think that it was accepted...
But you do bring up a good point. Yes, it is appalling to think of Mexican soldiers marching in, just as it is appalling to me to think about that incident 90 years ago.
[This message has been edited by moleman_in_a_FieroGT (edited 07-14-2006).]
It's already been done. 90 years ago the US sent 20,000 troops into Mexico to hunt down Francisco Villa (aka Pancho Villa). Judging by how no one cried out, I think that it was accepted...
We did something similar to start the Mexican war actually. The US wanted to stretch across to the Pacific. Some knucklehead religious nuts started calling for Manifest Destiny meaning Gods wills the United States to stretch from sea to shining sea. So the President sent troops into Mexican territory and when the Mexican army drove them out, he declared it in the national defense to attack Mexico beforethey attack again. Then they claimed all the best parts of Mexico and gave the rest back.
Your neighbor, what a guy.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 07-14-2006).]
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02:12 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Im also an azzwipe. I say hooray for Israel. Like I said just the other day in another thread, they dont put up with any crap from anyone, even if there 10 times bigger. They dont use our countrys stupid rules that started with Viet Nam. The object of war is to kill the enemy till there either all gone or surrender. We never do that anymore at least since WWII. Israel has in the past
1 had people in the olympics slaughtered........they eventually killed all the murderers.
2 had many people held hostage at Entebee......they went right in and got them.
3 Egypt declared war on them and used its army to try and wipe them out....6 days later, Egyptian army is wiped out
What I see is Israel NEVER starts anything, only takes action when they are threatened....even to protect ONE citizen.
What does US candy ass government do.
Viet Nam........run after thousands of wasted american lives
Korea........sign a truce, do nothing further
Iran....let them keep them for a year (OK, ONE lamebrained attempt to get them)
Gulf War I.....quit before the job is finished
Gulf WarII.....Attack and hang around doing not too much of anything except wasting more american lives.
Maybe to please everyone, Bush should pull all our troops out tommorrow and hire the Israeli government to handle Iraq. At least they dont worry about doing it with ' political correctness '.....they just kick ass. ....and they dont have lame excuses for trials........they use firing squads.
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03:03 PM
PFF
System Bot
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by JazzMan: Ok, so using your logic, if a band of Crips or Bloods crosses over into Mexico and kills/kidnaps Mexican soldiers and an army unit and then run back into America it's perfectly acceptible for Mexico to defend itself by attack America.
JazzMan
Well, people in the US obviously wouldn't put up with that.
However, the example isn't an analogy of what happened. The U.S. and Mexico currently have good relations. They know that WE would cooperate and take care of the situation with the crips and bloods. So they would get to have the situation handled, and not have to do it themselves.
Not the case with Israel and what happened. Israel knows it. Lebanon knows it. So not a fair analogy. An interesting analogy, though, and helpful. Just not equivalent.
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03:35 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20709 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Originally posted by JazzMan: Ok, so using your logic, if a band of Crips or Bloods crosses over into Mexico and kills/kidnaps Mexican soldiers and an army unit and then run back into America it's perfectly acceptible for Mexico to defend itself by attack America.
Do you even bother to parse what you write or is it just stream of consciousness to keyboard, like a bad case of mental diarhea?
No double standard.
I don't know about Dean or Air America Radio since I have never heard even one episode of the latter and have actually never heard any of the former's speakings or read his writings.
Nice of you to assume something that's incorrect. You know the old saying, ass, u, me...
JazzMan
The logic would be correct if the Crips and Bloods were the US Army and Border Patrol Agent.
You are saying the Hizbollah is nothing more than a street gang? You are so wrong.
Hizbollah is part of the Lebanese Military. Hizbollah is a leftist political group in Lebenon that runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities and participates in the Lebanese Parliament.
Instead of saying the Crips and Bloods, it's more like saying the Democratic Party crossed the border and attacked Mexico. That would be a compariable analogy.
NEXT?
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05:47 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I've proven you wrong so many times. Don't go there. Just admit you are niave. It's not a bad thing. It's just you don't know. You can fix that by learning and not listening to people like Randi Rhodes and the Air America crowd and all your leftist slacker buddies of yours. You're just a product of your enviroment. When you sleep with dogs you get fleas.
Wake Up! There are people here trying to help you.
You're all defensive, because you can't stand the fact that many leftist are just bad people. You think they are the "smartest guys in the room" and there is no way a terrorist islamic political party can be a leftist group. Well! They are.
If you said that the Aryan Nation and the KKK were Rightest groups. I would agree. There are plenty of bad people on the right. Just like there are plenty of bad people on the left.
But in your case, you can't believe that somebody being a leftist is a bad person. Too me! That sounds like a religous doctrine and makes you a sheep of your ideology.
Be yourself! Be a man! Think for yourself.
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 07-14-2006).]
now just how can a Islamic theocratic group be call liberal/leftest???
""The organization views an Islamic republic, on the Iranian model, as its ideal"" thats a cut and paste from your link
these people donot support a commie goverment they do support a god laws in goverment JUST LIKE THE NEO-CONNED DO just a different version of the god with a slightly different set of laws while I can see why you donot want them on your side of the fence tooo bad thats where they are go down the check list anti-abortion, and womans rights anti sex ,gay ect pro censorship in books movies art music ect gods laws as a base for the nations laws hey this could get them elected in the RED states so just where are the liberal ideals?? hospitals schools and radio tv stations we have neo-cons running all of those here and that doesnot make them liberal
Islamic liberals donot support the Islamic republic ideal
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 07-14-2006).]
Wichita obviously has some sort of serious brain defect. It's as meaningful to converse with him as it would be a dead rat in a trap. He used to be more lucid, I wonder if he's off his meds or if he's built a resistance to them. I wish he'd get the help he so obviously and desperately needs.
JazzMan
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07:52 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
I think you missed thepoint on this one. I'm saying that it may not seem to us like we are fanning the flames or directly involved. But we are, or at the very least percieved as a major religious player with designs on the region.
No, I got the point. What I am saying is that it doesn't matter.
In other words, no matter WHAT America does we are going to be linked with Isreal and called Zionist this or Evil that. Some in the muslim world simply can't distinguish reality from propeganda. Hence, if we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, I say, let's do the right thing and support Isreal.
quote
This is where I have to stop you. You are referring to the neoconservative foreign policy. Topple these bad states and replace them with Democracy. It seems like a good idea, and in some cases it IS a good idea. But as Iraq is showing us so vividly, it doesn't always work. Especially without the help of the UN or on the cheap. And certainly not when it is done for economic and military posturing reasons.
If we want to take a deeper look, we need only to look at Palestine. They had their first real Democratic election and what happened? They elected the terrorist organization Hamas. Hamas declares that Israel does not have the right to exist and should be attacked by any means necessary. The people elected these murderers to represent them.
There has to be genuine respect and good will towards these peoples before we can expect that they will be happy to accept our form of government. The way to win them to our side is through strong leadership and strategic quiet intelligence and military moves. Large scale regime change with a seedy agenda fosters resentment, hate, and more extremeists willing to fight us at every turn.
Conn, we've been having a nice little chat for the first time in I can't remember how long. And to be honest, I find it refreshing. Let's not spoil it with all that neocon crap. It's socialogical reality. People inherently react with VERY predictable responses to certain stimuli. Iraq is a perfect example of how it IS working. The Iraqis that used to SIDE with the terrorists are now turning on them in quadruple numbers from just 2 years ago. Over 800 terroists have been killed or captured in just the past MONTH in Iraq thanks to the daily inflow of REAL and USEFUL on the ground intelligence. The countries infrastructure is almost all rebuilt, women are voting, income is up across the board, the fact is we have won over the vast majority of the Iraqi people. Yes, there will always be nut cases, but as I pointed out earlier, they are going to be a lughing stock like the KKK if things continue to progess in Iraq the way they are.
quote
I think this argument is off base with this discussion. The plight of African Americans is very different from that of peoples living under Islamic controlled religious states or dictatorships. It serves only to paint all peoples with the neoconservative brush. People are different. Some people want religious controlled states. Ask Jerry Falwell or James Dobson.
I disagree with your premise. Once again, Jerry Falwell is a nut case. He is one of those extreme people we scoff at. You can't hold him up as the majority. People are not different. I've lived in several countries for nearly 7 years. People want the same things, love, happiness, security, hope, opportunity, etc. Cultures are different, experiences are different, values are different; no argument there. But people aren't. The similarity with African Americans is a perfect example because they like Arabs were effectively dehumanized, slaves, stripped of dignity, and lacking any personal power to control their lives. And even though laws have been changed to give them equality how do you remove the IDEA they lived with their entire lives that they were second class people? It will take generations for that to filter its way out of the psyche. But you can give it a JUMP start with economic power. We learned with the former Soviet Union as well as with Afircan Americans that you can't just change the law and expect things to be all better. But when these people gain economic freedom they rapidly develop self esteem and a belief that they CAN take care of themselves. If someone tells you you are worthless and weak your whole life then all of a sudden you are free by virtue of a law, you are not going to prosper right away, or even 10 generations later without economic help.
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08:10 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
No! What they are doing is defending themselves. I was just making the point that the Israelies would have no problem dumping nukes on itself and the whole region if it came to the point that Israel would be wipe out by Leftist Islamic Terrorist.
They would fight to the death, literally.
Man! What are you? Some anti-semite and a holocaust denier?
LOL, umm... no. I was explaining how it read to me, I agree with what you followed up with. I don't agree about the leftist part, an I'm definitely not an anti-semite or a holocaust denier... I had relatives that survived those camps and grew up having the interesting experience of being told I killed jesus by classmates because I'm a jew.
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09:54 PM
PFF
System Bot
under8ted Member
Posts: 1108 From: Sparta, ON, Canada Registered: Mar 2006
LOL, umm... no. I was explaining how it read to me, I agree with what you followed up with. I don't agree about the leftist part, an I'm definitely not an anti-semite or a holocaust denier... I had relatives that survived those camps and grew up having the interesting experience of being told I killed jesus by classmates because I'm a jew.
Dont you just love the cristians and thier "forgiving" ideals. Know the whole routine well (pagan is the best description). I've found, as I grow older a certain wisdom......I no longer argue the issue (well, except on the internet ). I just sit back, crack a beer, and watch them kill each other off.
They are too stupid to realize they are making it easier on me.
I've proven you wrong so many times. Don't go there. Just admit you are niave. It's not a bad thing. It's just you don't know. You can fix that by learning and not listening to people like Randi Rhodes and the Air America crowd and all your leftist slacker buddies of yours. You're just a product of your enviroment. When you sleep with dogs you get fleas.
Wake Up! There are people here trying to help you.
You're all defensive, because you can't stand the fact that many leftist are just bad people. You think they are the "smartest guys in the room" and there is no way a terrorist islamic political party can be a leftist group. Well! They are.
If you said that the Aryan Nation and the KKK were Rightest groups. I would agree. There are plenty of bad people on the right. Just like there are plenty of bad people on the left.
But in your case, you can't believe that somebody being a leftist is a bad person. Too me! That sounds like a religous doctrine and makes you a sheep of your ideology.
Be yourself! Be a man! Think for yourself.
Were you repeatedly dropped on your head as a child? Your parents must have not liked you very much if they let that happen....or actually did that to you.
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11:49 PM
Jul 15th, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
What about this in any way shape or form makes them leftist?
Ideology
The organization views an Islamic republic, on the Iranian model, as the ideal and eventual form of state. However, as their conception of an Islamic republic requires the consent of the people, and since Lebanon remains a religiously and ideologically heterogeneous society, their political platform revolves around more mundane issues. According to their published political platform in 2003, Hezbollah claims to favor the introduction of an Islamic government in Lebanon by peaceful democratic means.
A republic? Is that leftist? Your living in one founded as one... Is a theocracy leftist? Umm... No, I don't believe you've been moaning and groaning about the upswell of religous power in this country being leftist. Please back up your claim beyond READ!
I'd like to really know what a leftist is besides anyone that disagrees with you on any point.
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12:17 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Where do you come up with this crap? Right hand of God? There is ONE jewish state in the world. Have you ever heard any jew talking about taking over the world? Creating more jewish states? Forcing anyone else to follow their religous beliefs? They are probably the only religous state in the world that protects the rights of people with other religous beliefs to make pilgramiges to their country to practice other religons, up to and including allowing an islamic mosque to sit on their holiest site... think the Arabs would allow a synagogue to stand on a holy Islamic site?
They are the one place in the world where jews can find sanctuary by law and not worry about someone changing that tommorrow.
Agreed. It's amazing to me how some people seem to think (and act) as though the Jews have no right to have a country of their own. History seems to suggest that they have as much right as anyone to claim the territory that they do.
Following on to Scott's statement above, I have a couple of questions for everyone who seems opposed to Israel...do you think the Israelis would be attacking anyone if they were left alone? Does anyone have any evidence they can present that shows that the Israelis have a stated goal that they want to wipe out anyone else, like Hamas does?
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: What about this in any way shape or form makes them leftist?
I kinda wish they were. That would make it even easier to dislike them.
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12:24 AM
Vonov Member
Posts: 3745 From: Nashville,TN,USA Registered: May 2004
The radical Islamists are on the ultra-conservative side of the scale, (they want things reverted to how it was in the 12th century) which makes them right wing fanatics, not leftists. The best term I have heard used to describe them is Islamo-fascists, but these guys take fascism and anti-semitism to a whole new level. Compared to our current crop of fascists, Hitler was a dilettante. The Islamo-fascists hate the Jews with an intensity that makes the Third Reich seem benevolent by comparison. They hate us also because they envy us, but primarily because we are seen as standing in the way of what they'd really like to do to Israel.
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01:35 AM
Vonov Member
Posts: 3745 From: Nashville,TN,USA Registered: May 2004
anybody remember the crowds out dancing in the streets in Palestine and Lebanon and all over the place celebrating the 9/11 attacks ? Okay so now it's 'hey world, our neighbor's picking on us!' wtf ? Sorry to be crass, but if a terrorist outfit can get elected as representatives that does mean that most of the population supports this fight with Isreal. So the Israelis are at least lobbing those shells into a target-rich environment. The Israelis just don't value enemy noncombatants the same as friendly noncombatants. That's not wrong per se, it's just what's in their own best interest; balancing friendly casualties against collateral damage.
I have no idea what would have to happen in order for the arab world to get past 'hey let's destroy Isreal' and on to finding something else to care about (like 'hey lets go get a friggin job') short of the Israelis moving out. That ain't likely, so I just don't see the standoff ending anytime soon.
[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 07-15-2006).]
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01:44 AM
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3152 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
Going back to the original aspect of the post about Israel killing innocent civilians. I seem to share the majority opinion that the acts of late are acceptable. I believe those who disagree are confusing terrorist with army’s of war. In a war we naturally separate our fighting forces from our civilians and medical areas just so they won't become targets. But even then if the enemy sees the area as a viable target it is acceptable to bomb it and those inside are considered targets, such as factories for war equipment. Now terrorist do things differently, this is not war in the coventioanl sense, they do what they can, when they can, where they can, this is the only way they can survive. They try to blend into the society, which means being around civilians, and they do it on purpose! Now if I was a country being targeted and have been terrorized by them I would not hesitate to blow a building up with civilians inside as long as the target was inside as well. If you wanted until there were no civilians around you would be decimated in no time, they don't operate away from civilians, this is a not so new strategy (Vietnam). Regretfully the only way to combat it is to kill all involved. The terrorist put the civilians in harms way, Israel isn't targeting them, they are the by product of the terrorist and how they operate.
When you have been beaten down enough you will do what it takes to get the results you want. We could learn a thing or two from Israel.
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02:27 AM
trailboss Member
Posts: 2069 From: Gilbert, Arizona Registered: Feb 2003
If there was political leadership that trains it's children to kill Jews and equates them with monkeys and pigs, Supports terrorists, suicide bombers. Vows to eliminate Jews from the face of the earth, and that same leadership operates out of a country next door shooting rockets at innocents?
Israel has a right to defend their families, that is what men do.
Weasely cowards would scrape and bow to the opressors.
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02:59 AM
PFF
System Bot
trailboss Member
Posts: 2069 From: Gilbert, Arizona Registered: Feb 2003
Arabs control the green, Israel controls the red land, but by reading some of the post's here Israel doesn't even deserve to defend that small strip of land.....
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03:13 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Arabs control the green, Israel controls the red land, but by reading some of the post's here Israel doesn't even deserve to defend that small strip of land.....
That map has places like Indonesia and Nigeria highlighted. Did you mean to say that Muslims control those areas?
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11:28 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
That map has places like Indonesia and Nigeria highlighted. Did you mean to say that Muslims control those areas?
I don't know who controls them countries per se, the point that I was making {and formula88's pic does also} is that Israel occupies a microscopic piece of land compared to the Islamic governments.
Just a quick online check says that Nigeria is dominated by Islamic followers, and becoming more so all of the time.
Originally posted by trailboss: I don't know who controls them countries per se, the point that I was making {and formula88's pic does also} is that Israel occupies a microscopic piece of land compared to the Islamic governments.
Just a quick online check says that Nigeria is dominated by Islamic followers, and becoming more so all of the time.
The problem isn't just territorial. It's also religious. Israel control the holy land. The heart of 3 major religions. Also, Israel is on the Mediterranean sea which is super prime real estate. It's not just any piece of land. I'm happy to have Isaeli's there. I'm just saying that those other maps are lacking perspective.
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12:23 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by trailboss: I don't know who controls them countries per se, the point that I was making {and formula88's pic does also} is that Israel occupies a microscopic piece of land compared to the Islamic governments.
Just a quick online check says that Nigeria is dominated by Islamic followers, and becoming more so all of the time.
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: The problem isn't just territorial. It's also religious. Israel control the holy land. The heart of 3 major religions. Also, Israel is on the Mediterranean sea which is super prime real estate. It's not just any piece of land. I'm happy to have Isaeli's there. I'm just saying that those other maps are lacking perspective.
Did that bring any amount of peace to the region? Nope. So, what would? Nothing short of the total annihilation of Israel. Any ideas what Israel could do to ensure peace in the area and still be allowed to live?
Did that bring any amount of peace to the region? Nope. So, what would? Nothing short of the total annihilation of Israel. Any ideas what Israel could do to ensure peace in the area and still be allowed to live?
Hell no I don't. If I did I would be in line for the Nobel peace prize.
I support Israel and always have. I'm just giving you guys some perspective. I just can't see any way for peace in that region.
As Todd mentioned earlier economic prosperity could help the region to stabalize. But how can you have economic prosperity with ignorance and rampant violence. It's a near constant state of war. Resources are few and people are plenty. They don't have much to sell and no international businesss investment will touch those countries.
Even with economic prosperity, there is still no gaurantee the religious hatred would stop. Then think of the consequences of an economically prosperous Islamofacist nation that still hates Israel. That could mean a real war, a fully armed conflict between armies instead of guerilla fighters against an army. War planes, naval ships, artillery. Holy **** would that be a total mess.
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12:45 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Even with economic prosperity, there is still no gaurantee the religious hatred would stop. Then think of the consequences of an economically prosperous Islamofacist nation that still hates Israel. That could mean a real war, a fully armed conflict between armies instead of guerilla fighters against an army. War planes, naval ships, artillery. Holy **** would that be a total mess.
