Originally posted by 84Bill: Be careful about the use of the word "cowardly."
The object of the game is to win the war. There are many ways of winning a war. The US was the first nation formed by the use of such "cowardly" methods. Like sneaking across a frozen river on Christmas morning and attacking the sleeping Hessian troops in the town of Trenton. I don't remeber hearing about civilian casualties but then again I wasn't there to report on the skirmish. Surly there were civilians there at the time.
I don't know if there were civilians around, or not. Personally I'm thinking that they weren't nearby. The point is, if you hide among the civilians and do things that are going to draw enemy fire to your (and their) position, then you are cowardly.
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Nope they sure arent. But then again.. the "Muslim Nation" isn't very particular either. The way they see it, it's a matter of survival as well.
Not buying it. All Israel wants is to exist. Israel never aspired to the total destruction of the Arab world. The Iranian president (remember.. one theoretical cause of this whole cluster-fest is Iran) said in so many words, about two months ago, that Israel needed to be wiped off the map.
Originally posted by Raydar: I don't know if there were civilians around, or not. Personally I'm thinking that they weren't nearby. The point is, if you hide among the civilians and do things that are going to draw enemy fire to your (and their) position, then you are cowardly.
Ok.. lets say you were a Lebanese man.. and right next door to you is a missile battery.. Even though the battery just appeared there 15 minutes ago. How do you suppose you are going to get rid of it? Go next door an politely ask them to move it? So it fires off a rocket then moves on down the road. How far can you run when you hear the sound of an incoming Israile missile before it hit you while sitting in your house?
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quote Nope they sure arent. But then again.. the "Muslim Nation" isn't very particular either. The way they see it, it's a matter of survival as well.
Not buying it. All Israel wants is to exist. Israel never aspired to the total destruction of the Arab world. The Iranian president (remember.. one theoretical cause of this whole cluster-fest is Iran) said in so many words, about two months ago, that Israel needed to be wiped off the map.
Again.. Using the above. You are a Lebanese man sitting in your home, you don't agree with Israels attack nor do you like having Hezballah roaming around.. what are you ging to do after your house gets blown to pieces, your workplace destroyed, no water, no power, no way out..All this after you lived through the 70's in Beruit and managed to survive the onslaught then. Once again it's back to an effing war zone because of Israel. What? Call up your buddies in Israel or the US and ask them to "knock it off"?
Look Raydar Lets get down to the brass tacks.
These people have been ****ing around like this for CENTURIES. Arabs.. Jews.. Jews Arabs.. Romans... Christians Jews Arabs.. bing bang boom!
What will it take befor you finally get it through your head that they HATE eachother and the more we support ISRAEL the more pissed off the Arabs will get at ME and everyone else because YOU won't stop supporting ISREAL?
I'm curious about this. How do Americans (or anybody else, for that matter) support Hezbollah just by being there? Hezbollah is what it is. I think most people over there would rather not have anything to do with them. Even the moderate Arab countries have denounced their actions.
Kind of like saying that if I visit L.A., I support the Crips.
That's the point, you finally get it. Most people in Lebanon don't support or agree with Hezbollah, they're just ordinary citizens like you and me living in a freely-elected democracy. Israel is targetting them on purpose, ostensibly to force them to put pressure on Hezbollah to return the kidnapped soldiers. Israel is killing uninvolved, innocent men, women, and children have no connection with or ability to affect Hezbollah in any way whatsoever.
It's just random luck they haven't killed an Americans yet, or if they have the ostensibly pro-western/pro-Israeli media is keeping it out of the headlines.
If you want to use a gang metaphor, which is fairly rational because Hezbollah can be compared to a gang in many ways, what Israel is doing is equivalent to the police firebombing your entire neighborhood because a gang member lived in a house somewhere in it.
Wait, that's been done before, hasn't it? Somewhere in Philadelpha? Back in the 60's or 70's?
Israel has killed hundreds of innocent civilians, not by accident as collateral damage but deliberately. The fact that only a few Hezbollah members have died compared to the hundreds of civilians makes it clear that Israel's targetting of civilians is a deliberate act because no army, especially not one as well equipped by the US as Israel's is can be that inaccurate.
Israel has destroyed billions of dollars of infrastructure and taken Lebanon back twenty years or more, making it into a new Iraq. This is the second true Democracy that Israel has destroy in as many months. Gee, I wonder if that will make Lebanon as hot of a new breeding ground for Islamic extremism as we made Iraq?
That's the point, you finally get it. Most people in Lebanon don't support or agree with Hezbollah, they're just ordinary citizens like you and me living in a freely-elected democracy. Israel is targetting them on purpose, ostensibly to force them to put pressure on Hezbollah to return the kidnapped soldiers. Israel is killing uninvolved, innocent men, women, and children have no connection with or ability to affect Hezbollah in any way whatsoever.
It's just random luck they haven't killed an Americans yet, or if they have the ostensibly pro-western/pro-Israeli media is keeping it out of the headlines.
If you want to use a gang metaphor, which is fairly rational because Hezbollah can be compared to a gang in many ways, what Israel is doing is equivalent to the police firebombing your entire neighborhood because a gang member lived in a house somewhere in it.
Very true.
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Wait, that's been done before, hasn't it? Somewhere in Philadelpha? Back in the 60's or 70's?
It was the group MOVE during the Nelson Goode regime. The roof! The roof! The Roof is on fire! We don't need no water let the mutha ****er burn! Burn mutha ****er burn!
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Israel has killed hundreds of innocent civilians, not by accident as collateral damage but deliberately. The fact that only a few Hezbollah members have died compared to the hundreds of civilians makes it clear that Israel's targetting of civilians is a deliberate act because no army, especially not one as well equipped by the US as Israel's is can be that inaccurate.
Yup.. because the civilian population will pressure its government to remove Hezbollah. the problem is what focers does Lebanon have? and even if they had forces I can garent T Israel wouls have alread killed them all.
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Israel has destroyed billions of dollars of infrastructure and taken Lebanon back twenty years or more, making it into a new Iraq. This is the second true Democracy that Israel has destroy in as many months. Gee, I wonder if that will make Lebanon as hot of a new breeding ground for Islamic extremism as we made Iraq?
JazzMan
Well Jazz, you made a compelling case for the next generation of Lebanese Hezbollah and "terrorist" which will be threat to America and.. the dumbasses in Israel..
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06:45 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Do you have any links that support this supposition? Frankly, from what I've seen, most people in Lebanon, that are Lebanese citizens, DO support and in fact respect Hezbollah. If you have something that shows otherwise, I'd be interested in reading it.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by JazzMan:
That's the point, you finally get it. Most people in Lebanon don't support or agree with Hezbollah, they're just ordinary citizens like you and me living in a freely-elected democracy.JazzMan
Well I do know "Two Kuwaitis were killed by an Israeli bomb in southern Lebanon." But then again they could have been insurgents helping out Hezbollah. ::shruggs::
Originally posted by jstricker: Do you have any links that support this supposition? Frankly, from what I've seen, most people in Lebanon, that are Lebanese citizens, DO support and in fact respect Hezbollah. If you have something that shows otherwise, I'd be interested in reading it.
John Stricker
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06:57 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by 84Bill: Again.. Using the above. You are a Lebanese man sitting in your home, you don't agree with Israels attack nor do you like having Hezballah roaming around.. what are you ging to do after your house gets blown to pieces, your workplace destroyed, no water, no power, no way out..All this after you lived through the 70's in Beruit and managed to survive the onslaught then. Once again it's back to an effing war zone because of Israel. What? Call up your buddies in Israel or the US and ask them to "knock it off"?
Look Raydar Lets get down to the brass tacks.
These people have been ****ing around like this for CENTURIES. Arabs.. Jews.. Jews Arabs.. Romans... Christians Jews Arabs.. bing bang boom!
What will it take befor you finally get it through your head that they HATE eachother and the more we support ISRAEL the more pissed off the Arabs will get at ME and everyone else because YOU won't stop supporting ISREAL?
The Arabs hate us. Big deal. They've already declared "supreme holy jihad" against every non-Muslim in the world. Years ago. And just for emphasis, they do it again every few weeks. As I said before... "dickwagging". Nothing that we do now, other than threaten them with imminent destruction, is going to make them move against us. That's even assuming that they can. We could "glass" the place in a matter of a few hours and they know it. The thing is, it wouldn't be to anyone's benefit for that to happen.
In case you haven't noticed, during this whole fiasco we haven't done a damned thing for either side, other than helping to evacuate civilians. American and Lebanese civilians. Among others.
Originally posted by Raydar: The Arabs hate us. Big deal. They've already declared "supreme holy jihad" against every non-Muslim in the world. Years ago. And just for emphasis, they do it again every few weeks. As I said before... "dickwagging".
I guess you felt the same way prior to and during 9/11? Just.. nothing more than Arab "dickwadding"?
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Nothing that we do now, other than threaten them with imminent destruction, is going to make them move against us. That's even assuming that they can. We could "glass" the place in a matter of a few hours and they know it. The thing is, it wouldn't be to anyone's benefit for that to happen.
Well thats a rather defeatest attitude.
The arabs are just "dickwadding" and occasionally crash airplanes into buildings killing thousands But mihh.. less freedom more security is the answer to the problem?
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In case you haven't noticed, during this whole fiasco we haven't done a damned thing for either side, other than helping to evacuate civilians. American and Lebanese civilians. Among others.
Actually there for a while you had me thinking you were a Jewish American but now that you've cleared that up it seems you don't even care about America, controling the American government or even seem concerend about anything it is doing.
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07:55 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I asked JAZZMAN a question about a link or other information that supports his statement that "Most people in Lebanon don't support or agree with Hezbollah". You post something in response that says two Kuwaitis were killed by an Israeli bomb...........WTF does that have to do with the question? Then a link that expresses concern over cvilian casualties?? How does that answer the question of whether or not the average Lebanese in the street does or doesn't support Hezbollah??
And it's not just that, you've been ranting and raving this entire thread about mega corporations in the US and God knows what all, that have nothing to do with the thread subject. Not that I mind one way or the other, it just doesn't make sense. Your responses to me in this thread don't make sense. Whatever.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by 84Bill:
Well I do know "Two Kuwaitis were killed by an Israeli bomb in southern Lebanon." But then again they could have been insurgents helping out Hezbollah. ::shruggs::
All right, Bill, I'll try to explain Israel's reasoning right now. We all know how much of a success Vietnam was, especially with the banned bombing targets. Israel does too. So, which strategy do you think is better?
1: You know what, we're a hippie nation, we don't want any civilian deaths or collateral damage. However, since our targets hide with civilians, our pilots will drop pebbles on the target. Yes, pebbles. One by one, until we bore a hole in the roof of the house just big enough to fit the pebble in that will kill the target. Then, we'll send our troops into that house to patch up that hole, and remove the body, and clean up the house, because we want no collateral damage. And we shall drop pebbles on the rocket launchers, one by one, making sure that the rocket doesn't explode. And no matter how many pilots we lose, we'll keep on going. And no matter how many of our civilians are killed, we'll keep trying to only hit the confirmed target. Because the enemy is a bunch of savages who aren't to blame.
2: We're sick and tired of the enemy hiding behind civilians while exclusively attacking civilians. So, let's prevent the loss of a busload of people, even if it means hurting 5 others.
There are several things that you fail to understand. 1. The Arabs hate us. They've hated us for a while now. Not just because we support Israel. Because, I already explained, we're not Muslims. That's the main problem. They want to convert everyone to Islam. No matter what we do, they'll keep on hating us. So, what do we do? Sit there and let them build up their resources? Or take care of them?
Bill, I know that you only do this because you hate Bush. Because there's no way that someone could be so stubborn otherwise. You're a Me, Me, and only Me person. But by opposing Israel, you give the enemy more control. And they wouldn't give a crap if you gave them $$$ to destroy Israel. After they're done, you'll find a knife in your back. You, as a self-centered American should know better than anyone. Because America already took a knife in the back.
Now, Bill and Jazzman, what evidence do you have that Israel is killing only civilians?
You go spouting off about not wanting to get involved in this thread then turn tail and enter right back into it. Seriously, maybe you are bipolar or something.
Bur okay John.. screw you then. I'll just ignore your posts from here on. Happy Now?
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Originally posted by jstricker:
Bill,
Are you on medication? Seriously.
I asked JAZZMAN a question about a link or other information that supports his statement that "Most people in Lebanon don't support or agree with Hezbollah". You post something in response that says two Kuwaitis were killed by an Israeli bomb...........WTF does that have to do with the question? Then a link that expresses concern over cvilian casualties?? How does that answer the question of whether or not the average Lebanese in the street does or doesn't support Hezbollah??
And it's not just that, you've been ranting and raving this entire thread about mega corporations in the US and God knows what all, that have nothing to do with the thread subject. Not that I mind one way or the other, it just doesn't make sense. Your responses to me in this thread don't make sense. Whatever.
John Stricker
BTW Theres this really neat feature on your computer called the internet. Apparently you have it. Try using it to look for your answers, they are out there and kinda easy to find.
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08:03 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Please explain how I am "defeatist". The ones who hate us, hate us. Welcome to our world. They already take every shot they can, although it appears that 9/11 was their last available opportunity.
If there are going to be any more terrorist attacks on us, they will happen if the perps can make them happen, regardless of what we do. I should add that 9/11 happened when we weren't even in an active war over there.
If we pulled up stakes, broke down every oil well, recalled every soldier, threw Israel to the wolves, and never had another thing to do with them, they'd still hate us. On top of that, they'd go broke. They may not care too much for us, but they love all the money we're spending on oil.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-19-2006).]
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08:08 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
What's going on with you? I initially posted in this thread because I had a link that provided information someone asked for. I expressed no opinion on the subject at all. I have been reading the thread, however, because it interests me. I've posted maybe 3 or 4 times, total, including asking you a couple of questions. That's all. You seem to only be happy in this thread if you're insulting everyone that disagrees with you or posting things that are, to be blunt, nonsensical ramblings.
If that's what you want to do, go for it Bill, I really don't care. Pardon my concern.
Ever since you, and others, have told me that I have no place in America for my religious beliefs and a host of other slurs and insults, I've been very careful to do just what I've done in this thread, offer information when I've had it and it's been asked for, or ask for information if someone posted something I was interested in. There have been brief exceptions to doing this on my part, but not many. Quite frankly, I'm extremely tired of the intolerance to MY views that exists by the liberals on this board. Most here are good, decent people that just have a different opinion. Others (as you are being in this thread and the other thread I'm referring to) are hateful, vindictive, and then try to patch things up by PM. Screw that, Bill. You are what you are if that's in private or on the public forum.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by 84Bill:
You go spouting off about not wanting to get involved in this thread then turn tail and enter right back into it. Seriously, maybe you are bipolar or something.
Bur okay John.. screw you then. I'll just ignore your posts from here on. Happy Now?
BTW Theres this really neat feature on your computer called the internet. Apparently you have it. Try using it to look for your answers, they are out there and kinda easy to find.
Please explain how I am "defeatist". The ones who hate us, hate us. Welcome to our world. They already take every shot they can, although it appears that 9/11 was their last available opportunity.
Well you said
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Nothing that we do now, other than threaten them with imminent destruction, is going to make them move against us.
While it's not exactly defeatest but Damn son.. we have your entire lifetime and mine for them to get another shot in at America. Usef said that those towers would come down and they did, it just took another try.
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If there are going to be any more terrorist attacks on us, they will happen if the perps can make them happen, regardless of what we do. I should add that 9/11 happened when we weren't even in an active war over there.
Oh.. so you think that we have them distracted by war in Afghanistan, Iraq and soon Iran and they won't make any more attempts on America? Humm..
Any idea on how many al-quieda member there were before 9/11 and and how many there may still be.. or rather they have recruited since then?
To be honest I don't know but I'll keep the feelers out there.
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If we pulled up stakes, broke down every oil well, recalled every soldier, threw Israel to the wolves, and never had another thing to do with them, they'd still hate us.
Yeah well atleast we will see them coming from enemy territory with our boarders effectively sealed. If the US Army's job it to "protect America" well then.. How about it guys?
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On top of that, they'd go broke. They may not care too much for us, but they love all the money we're spending on oil.
They? Who is "they"? If you are refering to the Saudis.. depending on what class "they" wont notice much of a difference. They may loose a few tankers to the terrorists and gas may go up quite a bit but hell man, We can still buy gas from them.. Just crank up the money press another notch and viola.. money for gas.
Educate yourself, then I'll be happy to continue discussing this issue with you.
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Originally posted by moleman_in_a_FieroGT:
http://www.alternet.org/story/11590/ "In December 1998, I met a waiter in the quiet Egyptian port of Suez. As I sipped tea in his cafe, he pulled up a chair to chat, as Egyptians often do to welcome strangers. Not long into our amiable repartee, he looked me in the eye.
"Now I want to ask you a blunt question," he said. "Why do you Americans hate us?" I raised my eyebrows, so he explained what he meant and, in doing so, provided some insights into why others hate us."
http://www.robert-fisk.com/why_do_they_hate_america1.htm "If we allow ourselves the easy option of dehumanizing the attackers in our minds, as they must have dehumanized their victims before they ended their lives, then we aid and escalate the cycle of reciprocal violence and lead humanity to darkness beyond imagination."
http://arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=64357&d=26&m=5&y=2005 "The American who interrogated me was clearly not convinced with my answer and secretly I wasn’t either. The truth is that at present the Muslims hate America and now, they hate not only its policymakers but most of the American people since they have proven recently without a shadow of doubt that they agree with their elite by voting back into office, by a comfortable majority, the Bush administration inspite of it’s obvious record of lies and abuse of power" http://www.commongroundnews.org/article.php?sid=1&id=1373 "Thus, why do Muslims hate America? Why is America and its interests the target of Muslim hatred?
The answer is that, in fact, Muslims do not hate America, but rather the interventionist policy of the U.S. government. The presence of U.S. troops in the Muslim heartland, Saudi Arabia, after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, was the supposed reason behind the Sept. 11 attacks. The U.S. invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq are the main reason for the many suicide bombings in the last three years. "
http://www.lssu.edu/faculty/jswedene/FULBRIGHT_FILES/Do_Muslims_hate_Americans.doc " Muslims do not understand why the American government has to be so biased? why doesn't it care more about Palestinians ? From one end of the region to the other, the perception is that Israel can get away with any wrong doing and that Washington will turn a blind eye. The Reagan Administration had given Israel the green light to invade Lebanon in 1982, an operation resulting in some 17.500 civilian casualties and as many as 2.000 innocent Palestinians slaughtered in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps."
"Before the U.S began bombing Afghanistan on October 7, the Taliban offered twice to hand over Bin Laden, given evidence. Bush responded by saying “I said no negotiations and I meant no negotiations” and that he wanted Bin Ladin “dead or alive”"
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=1122 "The question, a profound one, would take books and books of historic explanation in order to surface an answer or answers. On this subject, I will attempt to offer an insight drawn from my experiences while in Pakistan. The nature of my stay allowed me unhindered interactions with the Pakistanis, at large. " Though she doesn't come right out and say it, the fact is the men don't like the US telling them what to do or how they should live and treat others.
http://www.911digitalarchive.org/objects/27.html "Although today's Muslim militants are a small minority, they are not an isolated small minority. Their outrage resonates and inflames an increasingly large segment of the society, including the middle class. What began as an insignificant, isolated backlash against American cultural and economic penetration of the Islamic world has mushroomed into millions of Muslims passionately insisting America is the Evil Empire. This long running clash of civilizations has now entered the 21st century, and there is no indication either the radical's war or the larger cultural clash will end anytime soon. "
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter13.htm The Israeli - Palestine problem: There is a fundamental rule that firefighters use: it is always easier to quench a fire if the source of fuel is first turned off. In the Middle East, the Israeli - PLO conflict is fueling much of the anger, instability, unrest, distrust, hostility, and feelings of victimization in the region. The U.S. is seen as favoring and supporting Israel. They have given over three billion dollars a year in military and economic aid to Israel. The lack of a peace settlement, the continuing expansion of Jewish settlements in occupied lands, the status of the Dome of the Rock at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem -- the third most sacred spot in Islam -- and the status of the Muslim section in East Jerusalem are major flash points. On 2001-SEP-28, the Infatada (uprising) by the Palestinians against Israel passed its first yearly anniversary. It has resulted in the deaths "of 647 people on the Palestinian side, 177 on the Israeli side," and the wounding of many thousands "Over the past year, Arab TV stations have broadcast countless pictures of Israeli soldiers shooting at Palestinian youths, Israeli tanks plowing into Palestinian homes, Israeli helicopters rocketing Palestinian streets."
Rafiq Hariri, the prime minister of Lebanon commented: "You see this every day, and what do you feel? It hurts me a lot. But for hundreds of thousands of Arabs and Muslims, it drives them crazy. They feel humiliated." The ratio of Palestinian to Israeli deaths has been relatively constant at 3 to 1 ever since.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1129/dailyUpdate.html "'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the report says]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.' " The Pentagon confirmed the study after The New York Times ran a story about the report in its Wednesday editions.
If not history, then what explains Arab hatred of the United States? There is now occasionally an editorial or a letter to the editor in this country suggesting that it might be time to ask ourselves if there just might be reasons other than our innate goodness for being hated. This always provokes a flurry of angry responses saying that whatever it might be, it certainly had nothing to do with our Middle East policy. But the anti-American feeling in the Middle East and South Asia has everything to do with U.S. policy.It is not because of our democratic and moral principles, but precisely because we are seen as having betrayed these principles in the Middle East, that peoples of the area have turned against us. If there is ever to be a solution to the problem of terrorism this festering sore must be addressed-and healed.
And the crowning jewl of them all and in total agreement with what you think.
"The report concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a “totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence,” and the fact that it is “being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention.” The report finds: “Not only does the government of Saudi Arabia not have a right – under the First Amendment or any other legal document – to spread hate ideology within U.S. borders, it is committing a human rights violation by doing so.”
Among the key findings of the report: • Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations"
• The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;
But we need SAUDI OIL so we TOLORATE their bullshit.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-19-2006).]
Jazzman.... you stated "Israel is targeting them on purpose, ostensibly to force them to put pressure on Hezbollah to return the kidnapped soldiers." Where did you get this information? I have not seen one report that says this. I believe you are misconstruing the facts. I believe they are bombing to put pressure on the Lebanese to release the soldiers but the first part about purposely killing civilians is way out there. Yes civilians have been killed during legitimate bombings of military targets, better known as rocket launchers. The key word is military targets. Now someone brought up the fact that civilians can't get out of the way of the rocket launchers, well excuse me but if one is parked next to me and I know full well there will be some incoming retaliation. I think I would take a walk (run really) or go see relatives for a short time. Also the civilians can take up arms and force the people who set them up in civilian areas to stop doing this!! Most likely won't happen but a theory nonetheless.
84 Bill you said that bombing civilians, even thought there is a rocket launcher present, isn’t a viable option for any military. Let me ask you a hypothetical questions, what would you do if someone was laughing rockets at your house from the closest convenient store in your area and you know that there are at least 10 people in the convenient store at all times. How would you get them to stop, i.e. before they kill you that is.
And as many of you has seen the UN is asking for Israel to stop and try to resolve it diplomatically, but you have also not seen them use any “real” forceful language or resolutions and many of the countries, the US included, refuses to scold Israel because Israel didn’t start the situation. Have they been ”maybe” too forceful? Well I don’t think anyone in America can answer that question. Until you have been subjected to countless bombing and other such violence on a daily basis you have no right to judge. Can you imagine going down to the local coffee house and being terrified that someone strapped with explosives and many other things may come by and wipe out the entire area. That all the countries to your border have declared that you have no right to exist and they will wipe you out at any giving opportunity. I applaud their tenacity and forcefulness if it means their survival. I say this only because Israel only retaliates to a forced hand.
Originally posted by Grim001: And as many of you has seen the UN is asking for Israel to stop and try to resolve it diplomatically, but you have also not seen them use any “real” forceful language or resolutions and many of the countries, the US included, refuses to scold Israel because Israel didn’t start the situation.
Yes.. and THAT right there is the reason the Arab world HATES the UNITED STATES and ISRAEL.
So go ahead and allow Israel to continue hitting innocen civilians in Lebanon.. I really really don't give a flying rats ass one way or the other but FINALLY my point has been made very clear..
Thanks.
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10:22 PM
PFF
System Bot
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I was aware of the bias, Scott, but it still seemed fairly accurate to me, based on other research, and was a source that I thought Jazzman might accept as third party and unbiased.
John Stricker
I thought it was one of the more accurate attempts at relating the history from that viewpoint., thanks for the link.
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10:23 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Ok lets clear this up. All of what I wrote: "But I can see where you vwould take his words with a grain of salt. The great jew conspiracy, they run not only our media but have tremendus sway over our gov."
Should have been easly understood but it wasn't. I'l alter it to better express what I mean.
"But I can see where you vwould take his words with a grain of salt. The great jew conspiracy, they run not only our media but have tremendus sway over our gov. "
Is that better. It was a dig at G-nasty. And correcting my spelling is preaty petty.
I stand corrected. You can appreciate that I have little tolerance for bigots. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
84 Bill, your getting better but I have a few comments on some of the stuff you posted. First this phrase " Muslims do not understand why the American government has to be so biased? Why doesn't it care more about Palestinians” maybe because every time we turn around the Hamas and other terrorist are lobbing rockets or other devices at Israel indiscriminately, that isn't acceptable. Last year Israel agreed to a cease fire with Palestine, what happen, well off course the Hamas decided it could still do the same old same and lob bombs and when Israel retaliate they then blame the incursion on why they were bombing them, makes no real sense. The only way the Hamas and other terrorist organizations can remain in power is by continually showing an effort to wipe out their age-old enemy, plain and simple.
One other thing you may or may not know, using Iraq as an example. There are many Muslims that don’t hate us, matter of fact most like us. I have been privy to many conversations with soldiers who have been to Iraq and one of the things they say is most of the Muslims want us there and are glad we are there to help give them a better way of life, they are tired of the oppressive regimes that have been in power. It is only the few who act up that make the news and that is all we get to see because it makes for a good story. It is taking awhile but the fundamentalists are losing the battle.
Now I will agree with you on the Saudi issue. There is a lot going on there that doesn’t seem right, and it stinks of Oil. I have no facts to back it up but I think we let them get away with too much but I do think we have our eye on them and we don’t trust them as far as we can throw them.
I stand corrected. You can appreciate that I have little tolerance for bigots. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
No worries dude I have a problem with not useing smileys. Its not the first time I wrote something that I thought was perfectly clear only to have it understood.
84 Bill, your getting better but I have a few comments on some of the stuff you posted. First this phrase " Muslims do not understand why the American government has to be so biased? Why doesn't it care more about Palestinians” maybe because every time we turn around the Hamas and other terrorist are lobbing rockets or other devices at Israel indiscriminately, that isn't acceptable. Last year Israel agreed to a cease fire with Palestine, what happen, well off course the Hamas decided it could still do the same old same and lob bombs and when Israel retaliate they then blame the incursion on why they were bombing them, makes no real sense. The only way the Hamas and other terrorist organizations can remain in power is by continually showing an effort to wipe out their age-old enemy, plain and simple.
But our policy has ALWAYS been in favor of Israel BECAUSE of people like you who think "all tha Muslims want to do is destroy Israel".
Hamas, Hezbollah the PLO Al-Quaeda Etc.. are all results of a people that are pissed off.. Ever just stop and say Hey.. whats up man, why are you so pissed off? NO. You Don't because you arent there, you are here and what information you get is twisted and contorted into something that resembles nothing of the truth. The truth is.. they want respect, help, recognition, FAIRNESS, equality, etc. They are indeed a peace loving people.. just like us.. and they are fierce warriors when angered... just like US and the only time you hear anything out of them is when they did XXXX and killed XXXX people. Oh.. you get LOTS and lots of that. You get the "the Arab man beat his wife to death in front of his children" and a shitload of other crap. but what you don't get is the truth.
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One other thing you may or may not know, using Iraq as an example. There are many Muslims that don’t hate us, matter of fact most like us. I have been privy to many conversations with soldiers who have been to Iraq and one of the things they say is most of the Muslims want us there and are glad we are there to help give them a better way of life, they are tired of the oppressive regimes that have been in power. It is only the few who act up that make the news and that is all we get to see because it makes for a good story. It is taking awhile but the fundamentalists are losing the battle.
During the Revolutionary war the british had many such people as well, the were called Loyalists. Here is what Samuel Adams wrote to them.
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"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776.
If an Iraqi man said that in public (in Iraq) in front of American soldiers he would probably be shot on sight for spreading antiamerican propoganda!
Well I had better correct that.
More than likely he would be arrested and probably labeled an "insurgent" rebel.
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Now I will agree with you on the Saudi issue. There is a lot going on there that doesn’t seem right, and it stinks of Oil. I have no facts to back it up but I think we let them get away with too much but I do think we have our eye on them and we don’t trust them as far as we can throw them.
Well man.. just wait till the oil runs out and the money stops coming in, all freaking holy hell will break loose. The government has been prepping it's people for a serious all out war with the west.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-19-2006).]
That's an amazing revisionist history you cling to Bill.
I told you about the direct lebanese viewpoint, and you brush it off because it doesn't agree with your world view.
As far as your comment about me reading your layout of middle east history, I read it. Aloud. To several of my co-workers, which included two jews and three men of arab descent. They all laughed and every one thinks you are flat out nuts. You don't have a grasp on any viewpoint of any of the factions involved. You only have your own twisted ideas about how to make the world a utopia if the U.S. would just butt out of everything in the world.
Originally posted by 84Bill: They are indeed a peace loving people.. just like us.. and they are fierce warriors when angered... just like US and the only time you hear anything out of them is when they did XXXX and killed XXXX people. Oh.. you get LOTS and lots of that. You get the "the Arab man beat his wife to death in front of his children" and a shitload of other crap. but what you don't get is the truth.
So the culture that allows them to kill us and each other for any infraction against their God isn't the truth? You're deluding yourself. They kill us and their wives and their children because they believe in the holiness of those actions. They would still believe in the holiness of those actions whether or not we were in Saudi or any of the other BS reasons that you say cause this. It all boils down to one fact: anyone who is not Muslim deserves to die in their eyes. Even if we pulled back, they would think the same. That is NOT a "peace loving people" by an definition but yours. Not even the Lebanese are talking like you.
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11:31 PM
Jul 20th, 2006
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Thanks for all the links, Bill. I just spent several hours reading every one of them (well, except for the one that didn't work.) Truly an interesting read, and an interesting collection of different points of view. Sorry. At the end of the day, I just don't buy it. Pretty much in its entirety. There are just as many first hand accounts posted here, that just fly in the face of most everything that was written.
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Originally posted by fierogt88: You're deluding yourself.
Careful. I said "delusional" earlier, and it didn't sit well. You'd have thought I said that he was committing a crime against nature, instead of just "tripping".
Good night all. And relax, Bill. It will be what it will be, and there's not a hell of a lot any of us can do about it.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-20-2006).]
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12:06 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
But our policy has ALWAYS been in favor of Israel BECAUSE of people like you who think "all tha Muslims want to do is destroy Israel".
Hamas, Hezbollah the PLO Al-Quaeda Etc.. are all results of a people that are pissed off.. Ever just stop and say Hey.. whats up man, why are you so pissed off? NO. You Don't because you arent there, you are here and what information you get is twisted and contorted into something that resembles nothing of the truth. The truth is.. they want respect, help, recognition, FAIRNESS, equality, etc. They are indeed a peace loving people.. just like us.. and they are fierce warriors when angered... just like US and the only time you hear anything out of them is when they did XXXX and killed XXXX people. Oh.. you get LOTS and lots of that. You get the "the Arab man beat his wife to death in front of his children" and a shitload of other crap. but what you don't get is the truth.
And do you have ANYTHING indicating that they don't want to destroy Israel? Do they give respect, recognition, FAIRNESS, equality, etc?
Israel gave them recognition, allowed the Palestinians to form their own government, police etc.. what did they do? Attack Israel... So they gave them the land... what did they do? Continue to attack Israel.
You state that it's unfair that the death ratio is more Palestinians than Israelis... boo hoo... you attack me when I'm better armed and you think I'm going to respond back with the same weapons? Should the Israelis earn the respect, recognition, equality etc by suicide bombing the Palestinian schools, markets etc? Should they be digging tunnels into their villages to sneak in and slaughter families in their sleep? If the US stops selling arms to Israel, stops foriegn aid to Israel... will the Islamic Nations stop attacking the one single Jewish nation in the world? Should the one Jewish nation (that allows anyone of ANY faith to live there, practice their beliefs etc..) just roll over and die because Islamic nations feel picked on or offended by their very existance?
Boo hoo for the Palestinians... the Arab nations are why they are screwed, it isn't Israel's fault. Their brothers around the world won't let them immigrate, become citizens etc, they are TOOLS. Israel has arab citizens, the Palestinians are playing the right to return card but they don't want to return, they want to take over. 57 years after leaving the country during a war rather than defending it, because they wanted to see that country destroyed... they still want the borders reset. They still want the country destroyed and the jews out. The jews have been killed or expelled from most Arab countries... does Israel expel any of it's non jewish citizens? NO... They hold seats in their parliment, own property and everything else a jew can.
This unfortunately is painting with a wide brush, there are friendly Arabs... friendly Muslems, ones that work, trade and have good relations with their Jewish and Christian neighbors, but the others will kill them also in a heartbeat if they get the chance. Maybe you hear the Arabs blaming Israel instead of Hezbollah because that gets you cheers and the other gets you shot down by the Hezbollah.
You mentioned the Lebonese military... they aren't being targetted, they are a non issue and are staying out of the way as much as possible because the can't compete with Hezbollah. They aren't anymore involved than Brazil, even though it's their own country.
You haven't given anything to back up your concept that the US going completely isolationist, stopping selling or supplying weapons other countries will improve anything. You don't care a lick about the Israelis from your posts, you say you don't care about the Arabs or Palestinians but your posts say otherwise... what do you see happening if we remove all support for Israel, take all our troops out of all Arab nations? Try to back it up with some historical evidence.
Ok Scott. I'm not trying to say that ALL arabs are sweet and innocent, no more than you can convince me that all israelies are sweet and innocent. Jews have violated JUST as many cease fires and peace treaties as the arabs have so don't hand me some bullshit story about how israel is all sweet and innocent.
With that in mind and the fact that the israelies love us ONLY because we help them and the Arabs who hate us because "we don't care", how do you propose "we" protect ourselves? Any god damn idiot will tell you that when the stove is red it's hot so why the freaking hell do we keep touching to see if its hot? It's effing hot!
What we are DOING is OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING!
Our ATTITUDE toward the arab people is very very BAD! Thats not just my opinion, its a FACT.
So do we keep trying to make something that is OBVIOUSLY BROKEN to work or do you think that MAYBE.. JUST MAYBE it's time to try something just alittle bit different?
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Originally posted by Scott-Wa: You haven't given anything to back up your concept that the US going completely isolationist, stopping selling or supplying weapons other countries will improve anything. You don't care a lick about the Israelis from your posts, you say you don't care about the Arabs or Palestinians but your posts say otherwise... what do you see happening if we remove all support for Israel, take all our troops out of all Arab nations? Try to back it up with some historical evidence.
Nope, I don't care a lick about either. But I do care when "we the dealers" stack the deck in favor of one and are being cough red handed by the other players. Then try to deny it, call them the cheats and try to eliminate them from the game. I have a serious problem with that.
With power come great responsibility to act in a responsible way. When responsibility is cast to the forewinds and that superior power is brought to bear upon another with indescriminent and extreme prejudice without regard, then those who wield that power, those in control of that power are reduced to nothing more than brutal, heartless thugs imposing their will upon another without any shred of human emotion.
If you were in their shoes your tune would be VERY different.
And by the way Scott. I happened to notice. Judging by your posts you are in favor of Israel and the US stance on this issue. That pretty much makes you subservient to authority, bowing to the powers that be, trusting their righteousness and believeing everything they do is right and good. You are off balance and lack empathy for those who have the disadvantage because it's alot easier and safer to bow down to the powers that be and kiss their hands and are thankful to not feel the wrath that is unleashed upon others. You are BLIND to the faults of those who hold extreme power over you and in fact make excuses for them. You go blameing the victim for being victimized by looking at those who are at an obvious disadvantage and easily defeated and saying to them.... "well toughshit, you deserved it." thumb your nose and turn your back and smile with pride at your master for a job well done. Your 3 to 1 kill ratio is awesome... isn't it?
It makes me sick.
So Scott, PROVE to me you are right and I am wrong.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-20-2006).]
If you want more just google "why do muslims hate us" theres ALOT more out there.
There are even many that hold the views that they "hate us because we are not "muslim"" Which is true when you consider our ignorance of the muslim customs and attempt to overtake them in order to "change it", (IE change their religious customs) that statement becomes even more valid that you can ever imagine.
All it takes to be a friend to a Muslim is to understand and respect the Muslim ways and customs. By doing that alone you have atleast domonstrated your respect for them.
A perfect example of American ignorance Women "customarily" do not hold any power in the Arab world. To US it's an unbelieveable violation of equal rights! We are appauled by this barbaric attitude! So when we send Condoleezza Rice to speek on Americas behalf.. OMG! they get insenced!! it's an OUTRAGE!
So.. if I were president I would not send a WOMAN to speek on my behalf.
So our arrogance is inflamitory, our ignorance of their customs is an outrage and our desire to change their customes is grounds for Jihad in defence of their ways of life.. IE their livelyhood their way of life.
Does it make any sense?
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Originally posted by Raydar:
Thanks for all the links, Bill. I just spent several hours reading every one of them (well, except for the one that didn't work.) Truly an interesting read, and an interesting collection of different points of view. Sorry. At the end of the day, I just don't buy it. Pretty much in its entirety. There are just as many first hand accounts posted here, that just fly in the face of most everything that was written.
Careful. I said "delusional" earlier, and it didn't sit well. You'd have thought I said that he was committing a crime against nature, instead of just "tripping".
Good night all. And relax, Bill. It will be what it will be, and there's not a hell of a lot any of us can do about it.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-20-2006).]
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07:15 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
If you want more just google "why do muslims hate us" theres ALOT more out there.
There are even many that hold the views that they "hate us because we are not "muslim"" Which is true when you consider our ignorance of the muslim customs and attempt to overtake them in order to "change it", (IE change their religious customs) that statement becomes even more valid that you can ever imagine.
All it takes to be a friend to a Muslim is to understand and respect the Muslim ways and customs. By doing that alone you have atleast domonstrated your respect for them.
A perfect example of American ignorance Women "customarily" do not hold any power in the Arab world. To US it's an unbelieveable violation of equal rights! We are appauled by this barbaric attitude! So when we send Condoleezza Rice to speek on Americas behalf.. OMG! they get insenced!! it's an OUTRAGE!
So.. if I were president I would not send a WOMAN to speek on my behalf.
So our arrogance is inflamitory, our ignorance of their customs is an outrage and our desire to change their customes is grounds for Jihad in defence of their ways of life.. IE their livelyhood their way of life.
Does it make any sense?
Very well said, Bill.
My only question is, doesn't Islam teach that all infidels (any non-Muslim) must submit to the Islamic world? Or is that something that is only preached by the radical extremists? I have read many reports that Islam is a peaceful religion that has been perverted by fanatics. But I've also heard that Islam teaches that it's destiny is to cover the globe, and all non-Muslims must submit to the will of Islam and be considered second class citizens (if that).
The reason I ask is because if that's true, then it doesn't matter if we've done anything to make them hate us or not - their religion teaches that they must eventually conquer us. I'm sure that's also why terrorist leaders use those teachings to spur their followers.
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08:39 AM
Wolfhound Member
Posts: 5317 From: Opelika , Alabama, USA Registered: Oct 1999
This was copied from another forum. Just a point some of you may find interesting .
xxxxxx, actually there are a number of Muslims in the Israeli Army.
The Circassians are Muslims and all their sons serve in the IDF. Like the Druze, the Circassians decided back in 1948 that they would prefer being allied with the Jews rather than the Palestinians.
The Beduin are not drafted but a very large percentage of their men volunteer for the IDF. They are extremely skilled trackers and are generally assigned to that job. Many decide to make the Army their career. Recently, A Beduin girl joined the IDF -- and it caused quite a stir in the country.
Quite a few Christian Israeli Arabs also volunteer and a smaller number of non-Beduin Muslim Israeli Arabs.
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09:12 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
This was copied from another forum. Just a point some of you may find interesting .
xxxxxx, actually there are a number of Muslims in the Israeli Army.
The Circassians are Muslims and all their sons serve in the IDF. Like the Druze, the Circassians decided back in 1948 that they would prefer being allied with the Jews rather than the Palestinians.
The Beduin are not drafted but a very large percentage of their men volunteer for the IDF. They are extremely skilled trackers and are generally assigned to that job. Many decide to make the Army their career. Recently, A Beduin girl joined the IDF -- and it caused quite a stir in the country.
Quite a few Christian Israeli Arabs also volunteer and a smaller number of non-Beduin Muslim Israeli Arabs.
Originally posted by Formula88: Very well said, Bill.
Thanks, it not an easy task.
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My only question is, doesn't Islam teach that all infidels (any non-Muslim) must submit to the Islamic world? Or is that something that is only preached by the radical extremists? I have read many reports that Islam is a peaceful religion that has been perverted by fanatics. But I've also heard that Islam teaches that it's destiny is to cover the globe, and all non-Muslims must submit to the will of Islam and be considered second class citizens (if that).
The reason I ask is because if that's true, then it doesn't matter if we've done anything to make them hate us or not - their religion teaches that they must eventually conquer us. I'm sure that's also why terrorist leaders use those teachings to spur their followers.
I think that can be best answered by looking at our own religious and even "structured" society and roughly fitting it in with theirs.
Careful considerations must be made with regard to "how" any religion or structure would inundate and control a society at large.
My personal views are as follows.
BTW You DONT have to agree with me, only believe that what I say is true... TO "me." You need to explore and discover the answer to your question on your own. That way it is true to you. I will believe you even though I may not necessarily agree with you. With respect comes friendship, we can be as different as night and day but still live with eachother.
I can easily say that the christian religion imposes it's values on me by pressuring government to pass spacific laws that are "in line" with their beliefs and "moral code." But I'm a non christian in the sense that I do not impose my moral beliefs onto another. There is a constitutionl aspect involved with this and the overriding "moral" laws stand in stark contrast to them.
Can I say that America has been over run by religious fanatics hell bent on invaiding my life and killing my dreams of "freedom" and self govorning? Absolutly!
They tell me how to raise my children, disallow me to own a hand gun, that abortion is bad, that I can not or should not drink, that if I smoke a weed or sniff it up my nose that I am a criminal, that "this is the speed limit" and if you go faster than that you will be a criminal and so many more "moral" laws that are said to be "for the betterment of society" when the reality is the betterment is actually a fine which takes from me and gives to someone else.
So to answer your question. Yes. To ME They do exists and there are some that if given the chance will want to "convert" me into something I do not want to accept or believe in. Maybe even go as far as to bomb abortion clinics and kill me or others in order to terrorize myself and others into bending to the terrorists will.
In the religious sense christian instill fear into those non believers. "You will burn forever in the eternal hell fires if you do not accept the christ as your savior." Since I really don't know that to be fact.. it kind of lends creadence to what is being said and as a consiquence it becomes natural to go with the known. Have christians killed off societies of non believers? Oh yes.
Do they still do it? Well.. it depends on my perspective. GWB is a christin in charge of what the Arabs see as an army of christian crusaiders. Though I think that is a rather broad "blanket statement" there is a certin level of truth....
Truth always be truth I have a tendency to persoanlly believe it. As a "non christian" I can only hope that when I die I am judged by god to have been a good and decent man regardlees of what my fellow man has labeled me during my lifetime.
Even though I don't believe in god or allah it does not mean they don't exist. Because by applying the factors of truth ( IE that any truth is the tuth) I can see that someone does indeed believe.. and well it must be true... so I believe it too even if I don't agree. Especially if I want to get along with them... and I do because United we stand, divided we fall and we simply must find the common ground for both our sakes and the survival of humans as a species.
My antagonistic relationship with Toddster is a great example of how "I" personally deal with an extriemist. I don't agree with what he says 99% of the time but I do believe what he says is true. I don't hate the guy for that at all but I hope he understands me and does not hate me.. even though I know he does. Given the chance he would just love to duke it out with me. I can't control him.. Just do my best to defend myself.
I may get my ass beat.. but then again I may whoup his ass pretty bad. Either way my mind wont change one bit, I've made that very clear to him. Beating my ass won't make me agree with the world of Toddster. **** that!
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-20-2006).]
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11:10 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Bill, After reading your links, last night, I figured I would "sleep on it" and post in the AM. Instead, I decided to stay up type what I did. But I did sleep on it. And have some more to contribute.
To help you understand where I'm coming from... I'm 49 years old. I was born when my Father was 41. He lived until 1988. So I have the benefit of a first hand account of a large portion of the 20th century's history. My father fought in Europe during WWII. He never did talk much about it, but I found some of his old maps and stuff after he died. My father (as well as the rest of my family) was raised Catholic. (Not that has anything to do with the discussion. Just background.) He was also a very smart man. And a very just man. He went to Europe to fight Hitler. He believed in the cause. I heard all the horror stories of Jewish oppression and persecution while they were still relatively fresh in the minds of those who were there. (I don't expect you to place much creedence or importance in this. Guess you "hadda been there".) My father supported the Jewish people and Israel. Because he believed it was the right thing to do. I also support Israel. Because I believe it is the right thing to do.
I'm quite certain that you will/do disagree. so be it. But you can be certain that you won't change my mind. Thanks.
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11:27 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33192 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by 84Bill: I can only hope that when I die I am judged by god to have been a good and decent man regardlees of what my fellow man has labeled me during my lifetime.
Even though I don't believe in god or allah it does not mean they don't exist.
Come on Bill, you can't have it both ways. I'm not saying some of your posts don't have some legimate reasoning in them but give me a break.
I've been following this thread and find quite a few interesting and good things on both sides of the "debate", but I still believe Israel is the only stabilizing factor in this part of the world. Hezbalah is pretty clear in it's intents and I sincerely believe Iran is backing them. Extreemism is nothing to play with, address it in a manner that the "extreemist" understands. I can't honestly believe the Lebaneese don't support Hezblalah , if I remember corectly, there was an election with the pretty overwhelming results. Happy Fieroing.
------------------ Ron Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
There are far more important things to preserve than history. History and it's nobility are great things to cling to but you must realize that in doing so you stifiling farward motion... and in some cases repeating. The history you so dearly cling to for the want of its nobility for yourself does not allow much room for future generations to grow.
History is a valuable lesson that was learned.. why repeat it?
Instead, put it to rest and allow it to pass, move on from it but do not forget it or cling to it and doom our postarity to repeat it.
Learn something different and allow others to do the same and make that YOUR history.
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Originally posted by Raydar: I also support Israel. Because I believe it is the right thing to do. Thanks.
Originally posted by blackrams: Originally posted by 84Bill: I can only hope that when I die I am judged by god to have been a good and decent man regardlees of what my fellow man has labeled me during my lifetime. Even though I don't believe in god or allah it does not mean they don't exist.
Come on Bill, you can't have it both ways. I'm not saying some of your posts don't have some legimate reasoning in them but give me a break.
Thats my PERSONAL views. I don't care if you don't agree. But for me it's fact and it DOES WORK very well for me. You would literally cling to me like a scared woman if you followed me and do some of the things that I do. Ever been to the "dark side?" I have and it doesn't scare me.
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I've been following this thread and find quite a few interesting and good things on both sides of the "debate", but I still believe Israel is the only stabilizing factor in this part of the world. Hezbalah is pretty clear in it's intents and I sincerely believe Iran is backing them. Extreemism is nothing to play with, address it in a manner that the "extreemist" understands. I can't honestly believe the Lebaneese don't support Hezblalah , if I remember corectly, there was an election with the pretty overwhelming results. Happy Fieroing.
"
