Yesterday they dropped a quarter ton bomb on a house in order to kill a Hama leader. They didn't kill him but did kill his family, including seven children:

From http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/13/world/main1798704.shtml

On Wednesday, an Israeli aircraft dropped a quarter-ton bomb on a house in Gaza City where Hamas commanders were meeting. The killed a Palestinian family of nine ? including seven children, reports CBS News chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan. "As bodies were pulled from the rubble here, you could feel the crowd, the anger of the crowd," Logan said in an exclusive report from the scene.

The attack badly wounded a Hamas militant leader, Mohammed Deif, who has topped Israel's most-wanted list for a decade. Deif could end up paralyzed, Palestinian security officials said on condition of anonymity. Wednesday's blast marked the army's fourth attempt to kill Deif. In a 2002 missile strike, he lost an eye.


Today in Lebanon they dropped another bomb on an apartment building to assassinate a religious leader, which they did, and they also killed his wife and all ten of his children.

Moral of the story? Don't mess with Israel, they will kill you, your wife, your children, and everyone else in your family.

This is probably an old Israeli saying: "What do you call a dead Arab child? A dead future terrorist."

Israel is making great progress in preventing future terrorism.

JazzMan

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 07-14-2006).]

They have more nads than we do. They get to fight with both hands.

We have to fight with one hand tied behind our back, because of the leftist, limp wrist phucks in our country that undermine our effort.

Okay... does anyone question the wisdom of these fools operating from the same locations where their families live?
If their families get killed in the process of trying to get them, it can always be used as a propaganda tool.

On second thought, maybe it's a stroke of brilliance. Everyone is expendable, as long as it furthers "the cause".

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Okay... does anyone question the wisdom of these fools operating from the same locations where their families live? If their families get killed in the process of trying to get them, it can always be used as a propaganda tool. On second thought, maybe it's a stroke of brilliance. Everyone is expendable, as long as it furthers "the cause".

That's what I was thinking. I was also thinking Wichita is an @sswipe though.

The nation of Israel amazes me of their military power that they have. Heck this is a nation which has been around for less than 60 years (as a modern nation) and has built a great military reputation. Heck when I think if their nation I think for a strong intelligence section, great Army, and great air force. I don’t know about their nave but I can’t imagine that being much of a push over either.

Israel is in a daily fight for it's citizens lives, with daily rocket attacks, nightclub bombings, buses blowing up etc...

They know who the enemy is and they take them out when they find them. That is a bit different than what we do, ie. invade countries to topple governments in the name of fighting terrorism, while breaking off the search for the actual terrorist leader because there is a different agenda.

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: I was also thinking Wichita is an @sswipe though.

While I don't exactly agree with his choice of words (or yours for that matter) he does have a point. We have been hamstrung, in the name of political correctness.

If the shoe doesn't fit, you don't have to wear it.

GIVE me a freakin break !!!!

When the "terrorists" or any other flavor-of-the-day-bad-guy kills the family of somebody trying to get at the target--its an atrocity.

When Isreal does it, its 'nads and they are fighting with both hands??



Am I the only one sensing a double standard going on?.......Oh, I keep fergitting isreal can do no wrong.

quote Originally posted by under8ted: GIVE me a freakin break !!!! When the "terrorists" or any other flavor-of-the-day-bad-guy kills the family of somebody trying to get at the target--its an atrocity. ...

They (terrorists) don't kill a family to get at the target. The family is a target. More accurately, civilians are the targets. It's an atrocity because those civilians can't defend themselves.

[This message has been edited by moleman_in_a_FieroGT (edited 07-14-2006).]

The family is NOT the target. The Hamas leaders are the targets.
It's just a pity that they choose to conduct their operations at home, thereby using their families as "human shields".
Of course they aren't saying this in so many words, but it's precisely what they're doing.

They are not any better than someone who barricades himself in a house and uses his wife and kids as shields when they decide to stand-off against the cops.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: That's what I was thinking. I was also thinking Wichita is an @sswipe though.

You're a self proclaimed leftist, so it's understandable why you would think that way. Don't worry! The Islamic Terrorist don't care if you're a bed wetting leftist or not. You're just an infidel to them, and so are fair to all political ideologies, and will kill all of them.

Of course if the world would ever turn into an Islamic World, you would be the first one licking their stink hole, be converted, dress women in burkas, put "Praise Allah" bumber stickers on your car, and buy the lastest fashion in prayer mats.

This is what they want to do to you. If not! They'll just kill you.


Israel is a nuclear nation. They will take the whole region, including themselves out with nukes before they give up Israel. They feel they are on the righ hand of God, so it's a dangerous situation. That is why they retailiate with a vengence. They have nothing to lose but a small amount of land, and they will be damn to be removed from it.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 07-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: No. The family is NOT the target. The Hamas leaders are the targets. It's just a pity that they choose to conduct their operations at home, thereby using their families as "human shields". Of course they aren't saying this in so many words, but it's precisely what they're doing. They are not any better than someone who barricades himself in a house and uses his wife and kids as shields when they decide to stand-off against the cops.

Errr... I probably should have worded my post better. Terrorists target civilians. In my previous post, "they" means the terrorists...

[This message has been edited by moleman_in_a_FieroGT (edited 07-13-2006).]

I won myself a tree day ban from one forum for speaking my mind on this subject yesterday. Now all I'll say is Viva La Israel !!! Viva La Israel !!!

Wichita, I declare you hands untied,
Go your chicken hawk self to the recruiter first thing in the morning.
You act like wars some kind of football game.

Radar He has no point and he was obviously not raised very well.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: I won myself a tree day ban from one forum for speaking my mind on this subject yesterday. Now all I'll say is Viva La Israel !!! Viva La Israel !!!

Make sure you run Hitman Pro and everything else you can think of after vising GLoP. Come to think of it--maybee we can have Isreal deal with Triniturd.

quote Originally posted by under8ted: Am I the only one sensing a double standard going on?.......Oh, I keep fergitting isreal can do no wrong.

quote Originally posted by moleman_in_a_FieroGT: They don't kill a family to get at the target. The family is a target. More accurately, civilians are the targets. It's an atrocity because those civilians can't defend themselves.

So, how many bombs have to go off on how many busses full of how many Israeli civilians to make it an atrocity? How many more before Israeli retaliation is accepted?

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: That's what I was thinking. I was also thinking Wichita is an @sswipe though.

If so, you are what clings to the TP.

Isreal has a right to defend itself you pin head. The fact that the Palestinians picked a fight with a tougher hombre does NOT, repeat does NOT, make them the vicitms here. The deaths of those family members, while tragic, is the fault of Hamas. They could have ended this war before it started by not kidnapping an Isreali soldier who was on Isreali soil when he was taken. Or they could have released him when the ENTIRE world condemned the act.

It's this simple boys and girls. Isreal was attacked and they have the right to defend themselves. Period.

quote Originally posted by moleman_in_a_FieroGT: Errr... I probably should have worded my post better. Terrorists target civilians. In my previous post, "they" means the terrorists...

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
Edited my post.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: So, how many bombs have to go off on how many busses full of how many Israeli civilians to make it an atrocity? How many more before Israeli retaliation is accepted?

My guess is one HELL of a lot........Isreal occupied the territories for over 30 years. 30-plus years is a WACK of pent-up retrobution comming thier way. In a nutshell, Isreal was and is acting towards Palestien exactly the way nazi germany acted towards france.

Simple fact of life they cant seem to wrap thier brains around is if you go around being the neighbourhood bully, ya gotta expect sooner or later your victims will gang up on you.

I will admit I have no particular love for Isreal, and think they should have had thier asses kicked out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip 29 years ago. THAT would have solved a lot of today's problems. Instead the world comunity treats them the way a liberalist parent treats a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum--throw money at them and give in to thier every whim.

under8ted:

Where did you get your revisionist history education?

quote Originally posted by under8ted: I will admit I have no particular love for Isreal, and think they should have had thier asses kicked out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip 29 years ago. THAT would have solved a lot of today's problems. Instead the world comunity treats them the way a liberalist parent treats a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum--throw money at them and give in to thier every whim.

Israel is 8,000 square miles of pointless trouble.
I would support US citizenship for all Israelis along with airfare to the USA followed by cutting off funding to Israel. It would be less expensive and less morally questionable.
Any Israelis who are crazy enough to stay and fight for their little country are welcome to do so without US funding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html (first link I found with numbers....hopefully reasonably accurate)

quote Originally posted by under8ted: My guess is one HELL of a lot.......snip.

Did you learn this in school, or something you picked up somewhere else?

Let's see... Israel is invaded by 5 Arab nations immediately after forming (the original jewish settlers bought their land at extravagent prices, working side by side with the arabs until some turds made a proclemation to kill the jews etc...), the Israelis without a military still kick the arabs butts and take lands as a buffer since the original borders were indefensible. They get invaded AGAIN and take some more. The Arabs cry foul each time they start a war and get their butts kicked and ask for the game to be reset to where it was before they tried wiping out the jews and lost. Bring on the Palestinians... a group of people the Arabs won't let become citizens or own land in their countries, a people that didn't have a country to begin with, pawns used by the Arabs to be thorns in Israels side. If you think Israel treats Palastinians badly, picture what we would do if after we took the southwest from Mexico, some of the mexicans stayed, refused to become citizens and continued warring against the United States targetting women and children along with soldiers away from their units. Then look at how the Arab States treat them...

"The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".

Jordan is the only Arab country which historically gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees."

So you can't become a citizen of another Arab country and build a new life... you or your decendants because they feel so strongly that they need to protect your right to return to Palestine. Ya... right.

Actually it's worth quoting the whole section from Wikipedia on the subject of how Arab nations treat Palestinians.

Treatment in Arab countries

The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".

Jordan is the only Arab country which historically gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees.
[edit]

Jordan

After the 1967 Six-Day War, during which Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, Palestinian Arabs living there continued to have the right to apply for Jordanian passports and live in Jordan. Palestinian refugees actually living in Jordan were considered full Jordanian citizens as well. In July 1988, King Hussein of Jordan announced the severing of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank. In practice, what this meant was that any Palestinian domiciled on Jordanian soil would remain to be considered Jordanian. However, any person domiciled in the West Bank would have no right to Jordanian citizenship.

Jordan still issues passports to Palestinians in the West Bank, but they are for travel purposes only and do not constitute an attestation of citizenship. Palestinians in the West Bank who had regular Jordanian passports were issued these temporary ones upon expiration of their old ones, and entry into Jordan by Palestinians is time-limited and considered for tourism purposes only. Any Jordanian citizen who is found carrying a Palestinian passport (of the sort issued by the Palestinian Authority and registered by Israel for validity) has his/her Jordanian citizenship revoked by Jordanian border agents.

More recently, Jordan has restricted entry of Palestinians from the West Bank into its territory, fearing that many Palestinians would try to take up temporary residence in Jordan during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. This has caused many hardships for Palestinians, especially since 2001 when Israel discontinued permission for Palestinians to travel through its Ben Gurion International Airport, and traveling to Jordan to fly out of Amman became the only outlet for West Bank Palestinians to travel.

Information from the Jordanian censuses which distinguishes between Palestinians and pre-1948 Arab-Israeli War Jordanians is not publicly available, and it is widely believed that Palestinians in Jordan (domiciled in Jordan and considered citizens) constitute the majority of the kingdom's population. However, in a 2002 television interview on a US network, King Abdullah II of Jordan claimed that "Jordanians of Palestinian Origin" are only 40-45% of the Jordanian population, and that an independent survey would be conducted to settle the matter.[20]
[edit]

Saudi Arabia

An estimated 500,000 Palestinians are living in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia as of December 2004. They are not allowed to hold or even apply for Saudi citizenship, as the new law passed by Saudi Arabia's Council of Ministers in October 2004 ( which entitles expatriates of all nationalities who have resided in the kingdom for ten years to apply for citizenship, with priority being given to holders of degrees in various scientific fields ) has one glaring exception: Palestinians will not be allowed to benefit from the new law because of Arab League instructions barring the Arab states from granting them citizenship in order "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".
[edit]

Discrimination in Lebanon

Lebanon barred Palestinian Arabs from 73 job categories including professions such as medicine, law and engineering. They are not allowed to own property. Unlike other foreigners in Lebanon, they are denied access to the Lebanese healthcare system. The Lebanese government refused to grant them work permits or permission to own land. The number of restrictions have been mounting since 1990.[21] In June 2005, however, the government of Lebanon removed work restrictions from all Lebanese-born Palestinians, enabling them to apply for work permits and work in the private sector. [22]
[edit]

Kuwait

After the Gulf War of 1990-1991, Kuwait and other Gulf Arab monarchies expelled more than 400,000 Palestinian refugees[23]) after the PLO allied itself with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

Don't forget about all the countries where jews have had their property confiscated and they've been forced out or killed, I don't see a great outcry for them to be allowed to return...

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Where do you come up with this crap? Right hand of God? There is ONE jewish state in the world. Have you ever heard any jew talking about taking over the world? Creating more jewish states? Forcing anyone else to follow their religous beliefs? They are probably the only religous state in the world that protects the rights of people with other religous beliefs to make pilgramiges to their country to practice other religons, up to and including allowing an islamic mosque to sit on their holiest site... think the Arabs would allow a synagogue to stand on a holy Islamic site? They are the one place in the world where jews can find sanctuary by law and not worry about someone changing that tommorrow.

Ummmm, he wasn't talking about Isreal trying to get more land. He was stating that Isreal will defend itself to the bitter end before giving up their land that they believe was given to them by God.

quote Originally posted by aceman: Ummmm, he wasn't talking about Isreal trying to get more land. He was stating that Isreal will defend itself to the bitter end before giving up their land that they believe was given to them by God.

Thank you! That is exactly what I meant.

+ for you.

"They feel they are on the righ hand of God, so it's a dangerous situation. "

That sure sounds a lot more like saying they are warmongers, the swordhand and all that, but ok... writing stuff on the internet off the cuff can garble meanings or easily lead to misinterpetations. That and the nuke the whole region sounded like they have an appocalyptic view like some of christianity or a take over the world complex like some of the muslems.

Interesting how nobody seemed to decry the "dead arab child" comment. Do people really think that it's acceptable to kill civilians and children as a byproduct of war? If so, that's truly sad.

Of the almost 60 Lebanese killed in the last couple of days, all but one were innocent civilians, and many were children.

One thing that has proven unsuccessful in the past is reprisal killings of civilians. It didn't work for Saddam, it didn't work for Hitler, it didn't work for Mussolini, and it won't work for us or the Israelis.

And for every Arab child that Israel kills, many willing future suicide bombers will join the ranks of the Islamic extremists because they see any Arab child being killed is their child being killed.

Israel has invaded a sovereign nation with a freely and legitimately elected democratic leadership and is destroying crucial infrastructure. This will cause Lebanon to become another Iraq and another breeding ground for extremist muslims.

Does that seem smart?

I don't think so.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: "They feel they are on the righ hand of God, so it's a dangerous situation. " That sure sounds a lot more like saying they are warmongers, the swordhand and all that, but ok... writing stuff on the internet off the cuff can garble meanings or easily lead to misinterpetations. That and the nuke the whole region sounded like they have an appocalyptic view like some of christianity or a take over the world complex like some of the muslems.

No! What they are doing is defending themselves. I was just making the point that the Israelies would have no problem dumping nukes on itself and the whole region if it came to the point that Israel would be wipe out by Leftist Islamic Terrorist.

They would fight to the death, literally.

Man! What are you? Some anti-semite and a holocaust denier?

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: And a band of militants crossing the border into Israel and killing, destory, and kidnapping soliders and an army unit, then run back into Lebanon is NOT considered an invasion of a sovereign nation with a freely and legitimately elected democratic leadership? Why the double standard? Did Howard Dean and Air America Radio tell you to hate Israel? It's it a Bush Plan and therefore Bush's fault?

I have no problem defending Israel, one of my closest friends is an Israeli immigrant. I know thier history quite well.

I'm not sure why Todd or Wichita thinks they are arguing against some positition I have taken. The only position I have taken is that Palestinian's that are organizing terrorist attacks against Israel are just as responisble for their family's deaths as Israel is. If you know Israel will come after you for plotting attacks against it, then why would you keep your family with you all the time?

The only other point I made was that Wichita is an a$$hat. Which I think anybody could understand by reading any of his moronic posts.

Thi sis what I hear when WIchita rants..

commie liberal pinko bet wetting leftist dfdsfsdf s sdf f sdf fdsfsdf blah blah blah blah blah I have emotional issues blah blah blah blah I need therapy blah blah blah blah I have anger problems blah blah blah....

[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by cccharlie: Israel is 8,000 square miles of pointless trouble. I would support US citizenship for all Israelis along with airfare to the USA followed by cutting off funding to Israel. It would be less expensive and less morally questionable. Any Israelis who are crazy enough to stay and fight for their little country are welcome to do so without US funding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html (first link I found with numbers....hopefully reasonably accurate)

A noble thought but even if possible the Isrealis wouldn't go for it for one main reason, for 4500 years they have been kicked around from opne place to the other because they are "different". It's racism pure and simple. This is their homeland, JUST as much as it is the Palestinians. The lesson here is NOT to keep shuffling the Jews off to some other place where they will feel like outsiders but to get Arabs and Jews to put aside age old predjudices and just learn to live together like human beings.

Remember, even Isaac and Ishmeal came together in the end over their father's death.

It's unlikely that there will ever be peace in the middle east. As long as there are Islamic fundamentalists in the world there will be attacks on Israel. Israel was born of blood, it lives in blood, and it will someday die in blood.

In a broader context, as long as there are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim extremists anywhere in the world there will be no peace in the middle east. All three groups have controlled the region at some point and as long as one controls it there will another fighting to regain it.

Without knowing what the future holds, we can at least look to the past as a guide. One thing is clear, the holy land has changed hands many times and has been at the center of over two millenia of fighting. What makes anybody think it will stop any time soon? Chances are this will continue.

[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: It's unlikely that there will ever be peace in the middle east. As long as there are Islamic fundamentalists in the world there will be attacks on Israel. Israel was born of blood, it lives in blood, and it will someday die in blood. In a broader context, as long as there are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim extremists anywhere in the world there will be no peace in the middle east. All three groups have controlled the region at some point and as long as one controls it there will another fighting to regain it. Without knowing what the future holds, we can at least look to the past as a guide. One thing is clear, the holy land has changed hands many times and has been at the center of over two millenia of fighting. What makes anybody think it will stop any time soon? Chances are this will continue.

I have to disagree. There are Christian fundamentalist extremists here like the KKK. They are all but completely extinct and a joke. Why? because our society let's them rant freely for the whole world to see and scoffs at their intolerant message. Also because I refuse to believe that any problem is unsolvable.

The problem in the Mid East is that these fundamentalist Muslim psycho whack jobs are considered CELEBRITY HEROS! Kill a Jew and become a superstar. Until the GOVERNMENTS of the mid east begin to take a hard line with intolerance there is no incentive to stop. Hence, the war on terror has at it's core a plan to rid the world of terror by installing democratic governments which are the natural enemies of terrorists and reactionaries. By helping to establish democracy in the region, the governments (who are motivated to survive at all costs) will take a harder line on the killers and extremists will die off just as the KKK did which, in it's hey day, was a major political force.

As a note, lets be clear of whats happened.

Palestinian terrorists from the Gaza Strip, aka Hamas, has kidnapped Isreali soldiers and Israel is retaliating.
Also.
Lebanese terrorists from Lebanon, aka Hezbollah, has kidnapped Isreali soldiers and Israel is realiating.

I personally support Isreals retaliation in both situations, but the details of each situation are quite different...

This administration has failed to see that blatently supporting Israels military, weapons and actions is a big part of the problem.
That damn huge wall, thier constant & continued attacks/counter attacks must be denounced.
Fact is, they have a very strong lobby and stronghold here in the halls of Congress, Industry & Markets.
That global influence is making people die & making everbody in this country dumber for allowing it to happen.

The U.S. cannot play sides in this.
Both sides must be treated equally and the U.N. needs to put blue helmets in that POS part of the world.
Spank them both.

OUT>

[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 07-14-2006).]

Its all a numbers game. People seem to forget that. See I see alot of posts here claiming what an atrocity it is and blah blah blah. Well here let me give you an idea as to why I would do the same thing. And why our government cant.

A terrorist or leader or whatever is in a house planning a strike that could kill hundreds. You have the opportunity to take a hand grenade/missle/bomb and put it right through the window. You kill the person but the drawback is that you will also kill his wife and kids, kids who will probably grow up to be like said leader/terrorist. Do you do it? I sure as hell would.

Now why can't the U.S. do this? oh yea... its not right, its a horrible horrible act... Lets just send in 100 soldiers to get mowed down by a 50cal instead of dropping a bomb and killing 9 innocents and 1 terrible person. See this is the problem, We as a nation have these things called morals, and respect for the people who surround our enemies. And our enemies... Well they just don't give a crap about how many people they kill, just that in the chaos they create, they kill the intended target.

EDIT:

quote Originally posted by G-Nasty: The U.S. cannot play sides in this. Both sides must be treated equally and the U.N. needs to put blue helmets in that POS part of the world. Spank them both.

The U.N. is a joke and everyone knows it. No one pays attention to them anymore. After the U.S. blatently ignored anything they had to say with no reprecussions everyone decided that it was a useless power. No one respects it and everyone knows that they hold no power in the world's arena. I think we should just save our money and abolish it completely.

[This message has been edited by MDFierolvr (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: A noble thought but even if possible the Isrealis wouldn't go for it for one main reason, for 4500 years they have been kicked around from opne place to the other because they are "different". It's racism pure and simple. This is their homeland, JUST as much as it is the Palestinians. The lesson here is NOT to keep shuffling the Jews off to some other place where they will feel like outsiders but to get Arabs and Jews to put aside age old predjudices and just learn to live together like human beings. Remember, even Isaac and Ishmeal came together in the end over their father's death.

I find this argument very similar to the multiculturalism vs. melting pot debate.

I don't feel compelled to support the Israelis who desire to isolate themselves and their culture from the rest of humanity. Just as I don't feel compelled to support the Muslims who wish to isolate themselves. There is a nearly equal number of Jews in the USA who have chosen to integrate themselves.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

8000 square miles of the mideast is not worth the blood that is being shed over it. Any Israelis who feel differently are free to stay in Israel and fight using their own resources.

[This message has been edited by cccharlie (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I have to disagree. There are Christian fundamentalist extremists here like the KKK. They are all but completely extinct and a joke. Why? because our society let's them rant freely for the whole world to see and scoffs at their intolerant message. Also because I refuse to believe that any problem is unsolvable. The problem in the Mid East is that these fundamentalist Muslim psycho whack jobs are considered CELEBRITY HEROS! Kill a Jew and become a superstar. Until the GOVERNMENTS of the mid east begin to take a hard line with intolerance there is no incentive to stop. Hence, the war on terror has at it's core a plan to rid the world of terror by installing democratic governments which are the natural enemies of terrorists and reactionaries. By helping to establish democracy in the region, the governments (who are motivated to survive at all costs) will take a harder line on the killers and extremists will die off just as the KKK did which, in it's hey day, was a major political force.

I was referring to long past events like the crusades. My point is that we don't know what the future holds, just like western civilization rose high hen fell into the medieval period. We can have a similar future if there happened to be a massive plague or a nuclear war.

Other than that I get your point. Christian fundies aren't nearly as dangerous as Muslim fundies. Neither are Jewish fundies.

But if you look at history, even recent history you wouldn't be saying that. For instance, Israel's ex Prime Minister who signed the Oslo accords with the Egyptian leader Sabat was killed by his own kind.

"Yitzhak Rabin (help·info) (Hebrew: éÄöÀçÈ÷ øÈáÄÌéï), (March 1, 1922 – November 4, 1995) was an Israeli politician and general. He was the fifth Prime Minister of Israel from 1974 until 1977 and again from 1992 until his assassination in 1995 by Yigal Amir, a right-wing activist who had strenuously opposed Rabin's signing of the Oslo Accords."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin

"In 1981, Anwar el-Sadat, the Egyptian leader who signed the accords along with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, was assassinated by Islamic extremists"

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/


So both leaders were assassinated by the right wing of their own countries. Because they fought for peace and won it, at least temporarily.

You also would have to look at how Israel came to be. It was carved out by Jewish migrants seeking to establish their own country. The Arabs fought back at every turn, but the Jews kept coming in waves. They bought the land and when they were attacked, they would counter attack and keep the land they won in the battles. So although I respect the establishment of Israel and even the tenacity of the people who created it. I also understand that it was a violent birth. The violence started way back in the late 1800's, and it continues to this day. Israel may have been internationally recognized after WWII, but it's people were already there in large settlements fighting the Arabs. SO much so that the British tried restricting immigration into Palestine and tried to restrict land acquisition by the Jewish new comers, it upset the local Arab population and made it hard for the British to control. Obviously it didn't work, because Israel was recognized by the British later.


Now lets look at the United States. Widely considered a very religious Christian nation. George Bush has repeatedly used the word "crusade" when referring to the war on terror and the war in Iraq. We are on the inside looking out. So we have a different view of our own actions than the outside world. Many in the middle east look at us and think, the great Christian power wants our land and resources. Here they are in Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Dubai, and Turkey with military installations. To them it looks like a crusade, and when our president uses words like crusade or says he listens to a higher power when deciding whether to invade Iraq, well it feels like a crusade.

[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by G-Nasty: Both sides must be treated equally and the U.N. needs to put blue helmets in that POS part of the world. Spank them both. OUT>

So the U.N. puts blue helmets into that part of the world. But they are not U.N. people. There are no U.N. citizens. The U.N. gets people from actual countries to put the blue helmets on. Now the evil people in that part of the world see intervention in their affairs. So they send people to set off bombs in mass transit vehicles of the countries of origin of the U.N. troops.

NOW what? Well, some countries will put their tails between their legs.

I'm not quite sure why the U.N. is considered to actually be a useful, beneficial organization. It isn't.