quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: We can't accept that yet it's a daily occurance in our war in Iraq where somewhere between 30K and 100K civilians have been killed.

interesting post Scott. I like the way you phrased things... Is this true though?
I know there must be innocent casualties in war... but if our military did 30K-100K civilian deaths, we are no better than the dictator we took out. (in that regards anyway)

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: All Israilies are soldiers. They are conscripted at the age of 17 - 18 and serve one to two years. In other words they are a militant society.

You served in the Army, right? Does that mean you're still a soldier today? Does that make you a militant?
The U.S. has instituted a draft when circumstances required it. I do believe Israel has conditions requiring military service. It's not like they're building an army for conquest. It's required to defend against the continual threat they face. It's called the IDF for a reason - and not just propaganda.

But even if we say they are a militant society... what of it? Does that mean they can no longer defend themselves because they're militant? What's your point?

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Hezbollah has used rockets that can basically strike any city in Israel now, it's not just a border skirmishes anymore. Israel has the choice of letting their country be used for nonstop target practice or take out the threat. If Mexico or Canada wasn't in control of it's borders with the US and a military group was firing hundreds of rockets a day into Tucson, Phoenix, San Diego, Seattle... what do you think we'd do? Show restraint? Negotiate? Give them international funding? Call for UN intervention? Give them lands?

I guess it depends on whether you're a liberal or conservative. Liberals typically say "no blood for ____", and "stop the war", so I guess if you're a liberal, you'd better not attack anyone. That'd be wrong!

Bear with me, this middle east thing, and the anti-Israeli/poooor-Arab bias, is maddening.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: ...They make it mandatory that the people are the ones defending themselves and that fresh blood enters the ranks constantly, that is a deterrent to military coups and politicians willing to toss away their lives for little reason. That means that every citizen is capable of picking up a weapon and defending themselves...

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yup... militant societies. Thats what I said.

That's fine. But then you rail against our government as being untrustworthy, when dealing with the citizenry.
Should everyone be armed? Or just the government?

If everyone here were armed (assuming most of us are not already) and we were all prepared to challenge a common enemy, would that make us a militant society?
And would that be a bad thing?

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-18-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: That's fine. But then you rail against our government as being untrustworthy, when dealing with the citizenry. Should everyone be armed? Or just the government?

I believe the second amendment... Sorry... I mean our trustworthey governments laws to the contrary make it pretty clear who is to be armed and not armed.

quote If everyone here were armed (assuming most of us are not already) and we were all prepared to challenge a common enemy, would that make us a militant society? And would that be a bad thing?

Well..... I suppose that would depend on a few factors.

By the same token, the founding fathers would all have been considered militants, too.

I just listened to a dumb azz habib begging for someone to come and stop the Israelis from dropping their bombs on everything. "why dont the security council stop them from doing this to us, Israel is always starting this" Well Israel is returning fire D.S.
Israel told them last nite, they would stop the minute they safely returned their 2 soldiers, backed away from the border, and stopped firing rockets. Sound simple enough to me. Instead they fired about a dozen rockets randomly into the Israeli capital. Wanna bet that Israel retaliates again today or tonite....then the idiots will be on again tommorrow crying that there being bombed again. duhhhhhhhh

quote Originally posted by Formula88: By the same token, the founding fathers would all have been considered militants, too.

Absolutly.. Terrorists and barbarions... infidels.. enemies of the crown... etc.

Well, the Muslim group Hezbollah in Iran just made a statement today that they are awaiting word from their "supreme leader" to commence WW3 with the US and Israel. Here's hoping they get the green light from the chief mucky muck so that we can carpet bomb the entire region, wiping these bronze age screw heads from history.

Yup, he's a dumb one. A smart one would be arming himself and wanting to rip the heads off the beanie wearing assholes who are blowing up his country.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I just listened to a dumb azz habib begging for someone to come and stop the Israelis from dropping their bombs on everything. "why dont the security council stop them from doing this to us, Israel is always starting this" Well Israel is returning fire D.S. Israel told them last nite, they would stop the minute they safely returned their 2 soldiers, backed away from the border, and stopped firing rockets. Sound simple enough to me. Instead they fired about a dozen rockets randomly into the Israeli capital. Wanna bet that Israel retaliates again today or tonite....then the idiots will be on again tommorrow crying that there being bombed again. duhhhhhhhh

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Here's hoping they get the green light from the chief mucky muck so that we can carpet bomb the entire region, wiping these bronze age screw heads from history.

LOL, well it wont be us who would do the carpet bombing, we don't have the capability

Just found a link to Iran's latest threats to US and Israel's interests worldwide .

Holy crap thats a huge link

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 07-18-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yup, he's a dumb one. A smart one would be arming himself and wanting to rip the heads off the beanie wearing assholes who are blowing up his country.

Jeezis, Bill, please tell me this is your...unique humor?

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 07-18-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yup, he's a dumb one. A smart one would be arming himself and wanting to rip the heads off the beanie wearing assholes who are blowing up his country.

And Bill reaches new heights in ignorance and racism. I wouldn't have thought you could have out done yourself Bill, but your insane blathering never ceases to amaze me.

POORBill

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yup, he's a dumb one. A smart one would be arming himself and wanting to rip the heads off the beanie wearing assholes who are blowing up his country.

Wanting or waiting? A smart one? If they didn't slaughter their own there might be more smart ones. If there were smart ones, they'd leave the beanie wearing assholes alone and go about their own lives, but that ain't the way is it? That's all the beanie wearing ones want... just leave them be, stop attacking them and they'll stop firing back. But their religous leaders won't let that play and if one does he gets replaced with one more wacked out on a religous powertrip, usually through assassination.

I can throw a stereotype out there, the Arabs are cowards. They throw their own children and women in harms way, they throw the first punch then run away over and over. They target civilians on purpose because they consider anyone not one of their branch the enemy... yet they wail when their women and children die. But having wailed, they scream out about how they hope their other children can give their lives for the cause. They take take take, yet what do they give? Where do they embrace the joy of living? They get their joy out of death and destruction as long as they are the ones throwing the punches, as soon as someone fights back they run off crying for intervention.

Those beanie wearers aren't praying or calling for their enemies destruction, they are shouting out for peace and security and are willing to fight for it. They don't want Arab blood on their hands but they'll do it if need be, it's been shown over and over again. You've got the Arab bullies throwing punches and every freaking time Israel fights back they run away crying foul, asking for do overs... wait a bit, new generation of kids programmed and do it again.

Israeli's build an oasis out of the desert and swamps, what are the Hezbollah building? Where are their orchards, parks, gardens, nightclubs etc? They build schools to indocrinate their young and hospitals to patch up the ones that survive being tossed in the meat grinder. What happened to the culture? Oh yeah... Fundamentalist Islamics is what happened, where following religous law as spouted by nutcases is all that matters. Any industry being built in an Arab country in the last 10-20 years? Any scientific research that doesn't deal with creating weapons, but with bettering life? The Arab culture was the peak of civilization prior to Mohammed. Now they are a cluster$%^&, right where the Christians were during the Crusades, only with better weapons.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Well, the Muslim group Hezbollah in Iran just made a statement today that they are awaiting word from their "supreme leader" to commence WW3 with the US and Israel. Here's hoping they get the green light from the chief mucky muck so that we can carpet bomb the entire region, wiping these bronze age screw heads from history.

Get ready for $1,000 barrel oil and a total economic collapse. Remember, you can get what you wish for...

JazzMan

Nope, not this time.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Jeezis, Bill, please tell me this is your...unique humor?

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I can throw a stereotype out there, the Arabs are cowards. They throw their own children and women in harms way, they throw the first punch then run away over and over. They target civilians on purpose because they consider anyone not one of their branch the enemy... yet they wail when their women and children die. But having wailed, they scream out about how they hope their other children can give their lives for the cause. They take take take, yet what do they give? Where do they embrace the joy of living? They get their joy out of death and destruction as long as they are the ones throwing the punches, as soon as someone fights back they run off crying for intervention.

Thought this sums up the difference between the Israeli's and the Arabs.

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 07-18-2006).]

racism?

While my harshness may be misconstrued as racism I can assure you that I really don't care about anyone and I surely don't "hate." Even if by some remote possibility I did "hate" it would be everyone equally.

Have I told you how much I loved you lately?
I mean you are awfully stupid and arrogant but hell man, nobodys perfect.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: And Bill reaches new heights in ignorance and racism. I wouldn't have thought you could have out done yourself Bill, but your insane blathering never ceases to amaze me.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: It's not my fight so I don't care which is right or which is wrong but if you want me to pick sides it sure aint going to be with the assholes who started lobbing bombs first.

So why do you choose to support the Arabs? They've been lobbing bombs for decades. But you don't care. You refuse to educate yourself.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I'd love to see the UN condemn it's bastard child for acting like a spoiled rotten bastard child nation it truely is.

Hmmm? Spoiled rotten bastard? So you expect anyone who is being bullied to bend over and take it? And anyone who defends themselves are spoiled rotten bastards? I hope that you follow your example. But I doubt you care. Because you refuse to educate yourself.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Actually if that picture were true israel would be targeting the rocket batteries and not the cities. But hey, whats good for the goose.... ya know?

But even if you destroy the rockets, the fighters are still there. They can go and buy more rockets. And they can keep on firing them. But I doubt that you care. What you say has to go. And you refuse to open your eyes. But hey, that's your life. Keep on living in Neverland.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Actually if that picture were true israel would be targeting the rocket batteries and not the cities. But hey, whats good for the goose.... ya know?

Israel has been targeting missle launch sites, as well as Hezzbollah strong holds, which just happen to be in civilian areas. Israel is not being nearly as destructive as they could be. They do appear to be attempting to minimize civilian casualties, but in any war - espeically with a gurellia enemy mixed in with the populace - civilian casualties are inevitable. You try to minimize them, but you can't avoid it completely.

You of all people know that it's wrong to prosecute a war with one hand tied behind your back. You have to go in and do the job so you can get it finished and go home.

quote Originally posted by moleman_in_a_FieroGT: So why do you choose to support the Arabs? They've been lobbing bombs for decades. But you don't care. You refuse to educate yourself.

Who said... rather where did I say "I support arabs"?

quote Hmmm? Spoiled rotten bastard? So you expect anyone who is being bullied to bend over and take it? And anyone who defends themselves are spoiled rotten bastards? I hope that you follow your example. But I doubt you care. Because you refuse to educate yourself.

Oh hell yes.
The isralies didn't earn their country, it was givent to them and the arms were given to them. Sure they had to beat the stone throwing arabs but come on man. What is a rock compaired to an M1?

quote But even if you destroy the rockets, the fighters are still there. They can go and buy more rockets. And they can keep on firing them. But I doubt that you care. What you say has to go. And you refuse to open your eyes. But hey, that's your life. Keep on living in Neverland.

Never land? Are you calling America "neverland"?

Look bud. My government is supporting a country that the arabs hate, have always hated and always will hate so that means they will hate me and want to kill me because of my governments "friendly" association . So excuse me if state very adamently that I WANT NOTHING to do with that country and I do not want my government supporting them. A friend that cause me anguish and suffering like we americans suffered on 9/11 isn't worth the price to pay for that kind of friendship.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Well damn.... They must have had missile silos hidden under the runway... and there must have been another in the fuel farm.. WOW.. Whoda thunk it? Either that ot the IDF couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. BULLSHIT!!! The isralies targeted the airport and hit it as well as other targets INCLUDING civilian targets in order to get the Lebanise people to pressure the government. I duno about you but if someone targeted MY COUNTRY I'd be pissed off like a musther****er and looking to get some blood of my own. I believe that is exactly what Kloddster would do? Ya know, "rush to the front line" with guns a blazing like rambo on roidz to defend your country?

Yes, they targeted the airport AS WELL. Air ports are usually an early tactical target is many military campaigns. I believe that was one of the first things we did going into Iraq - take out or secure Saddam International Airport. But maybe they are targeting civilians to pressure the government. I don't think so, but it's possible. That tactic worked well for us against Japan in WWII.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-18-2006).]

Oh yeah... god knows what a deadly air force the Lebanise have.

The reason the isralies targeted the airport is because it IS a high dollar asset. It will COST the PEOPLE of lebanon and the Lebanise government alot of money to rebuild it. Not to mention in the meantime the economic impact on commerce will be immidiate and long lasting... again for the Lebanise people.

If the IDF really wanted to hit the rocket batteries they would have little problem doing so. But instead they chose to target the civilian population. Very typical of Israel to do that kind of crap, just slash and burn everything. Destroy 4 city blocks because a suicide bomber lived in one nearby house.

I believe we discussed this already about two years ago.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yes, they targeted the airport AS WELL. Air ports are usually an early tactical target is many military campaigns. I believe that was one of the first things we did going into Iraq - take out Saddam International Airport. But maybe they are targeting civilians to pressure the government. I don't think so, but it's possible. That tactic worked well for us against Japan in WWII.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Look bud. My government is supporting a country that the arabs hate, have always hated and always will hate so that means they will hate me and want to kill me because of my governments "friendly" association . So excuse me if state very adamently that I WANT NOTHING to do with that country and I do not want my government supporting them. A friend that cause me anguish and suffering like we americans suffered on 9/11 isn't worth the price to pay for that kind of friendship.

The Arabs don't hate us just because we support Israel. They hate us because we need their oil and because we're not a Muslim nation. So, until we help them destroy Israel, abandon everything that uses oil, and convert to Islam, we aren't getting anywhere.

I believe this who **** fest has started out of a matter of convienience to draw out Iran.. or rather get the "Iranians" involved .

If they do it will be considered an "act of war."

It will then open the door for an invasion of Iran and the snuffing out of their nuclear program AND bring them under UN contract which the United States will no doubt be all too happy to enforce. The US then nabs control of another very rich oil field and another arab nation. The bottom line "more control."

Some my think this is a great idea. But hoho boy..

quote Originally posted by Formula88:

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yeah.. Must be why Saudi Arabia, Quait and a host of other oil producing Arab nations are about to attack the US.

Hmm... Saudi Arabia already did and we diverted the attention to Iraq. Osama is Saudi, most of the hijackers on 9-11 were Saudi. But... they have the money and the oil and while their citizens are funding the terrorists and are the terrorists the royal family is barely keeping the country from going into a civil war with the Islamic extremists taking over control. Helps when the royal family is in business with our president and they are family friends.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Oh hell yes. The isralies didn't earn their country, it was givent to them and the arms were given to them. Sure they had to beat the stone throwing arabs but come on man. What is a rock compaired to an M1?

BS... they bought and paid for their land with their own money, then the arabs wanted it back and them dead. They got the British to pull out, they backed the Arabs attempt to drive the jews out. The original borders set up left the jews in a thin ribbon and seperated from Jerusalem. A large portion of the Arabs left when the surrounding nations said they were going to attack and drive the jews into the sea. The jews didn't have a military, an air force etc at the time.. but still beat them, mostly by taking their equipment and using it against them. Their first aircraft was a pipercub that they ripped the passenger seat out of and put a crate of grenades in... and used it against the arab ground forces who had tanks etc... They then started getting backing from the US who has paid them to NOT build their own aircraft because we didn't want the competition. They created their own weapons right on up to nukes. What makes you think the Arabs were throwing stones?

They earned their country, they took swamps and drained them, dying by the thousands. They irrigated the desert and planted orange groves, olive groves etc, built cities with industry. They haven't asked anyone else to come build homes for them, fix their powerplants, feed them... they supply the majority of the jobs the Palestinians have that aren't working for the Palestinian authority. How many Palestinians are hiring jews? Arabs that are Israeli citizens hold seats in their parliment... those that didn't abandon the country when the rest of the arabs left are still citizens.

If the Israelis are assholes, we need more assholes in the world. You ask why they are targetting civilian areas instead of the rocket batteries... that is where the rocket batteries are! They are truck mounted, they pull up into a civilian area, fire their load and leave. The retailitory air strike on the spot they fired from hits civilians... win/win for the Hezballoh. They got to shoot at the Israelis and get to show pictures on their TV of the evil jews killing civilians.

Airport... hmm, I'm in a war and I have a choice of leaving you resupply routes or not... I choose NOT.
Fuel depots... your driving around in mobile rocket launchers and I have the choice of leaving you fuel or not... I choose NOT.

The Hez have been trying to hit the fuel refinery in Haifa for a week now... I wonder if they are watching the news, they are better than forward observers. On CNN this morning "A rocket just hit about 600 yards west of the refinery killing 1 person" "the other rockets appear to be landing to the south of the city in open fields"

The estimate is that the Hezballah have about 13,000 of the rockets that with a range of 40 miles, they were firing about 150-200 a day when the Israelis attacked, they were down to about 40 a day yesterday as the launchers get destroyed along with ammo dumps and fuel depots. Hopefully they will be down to small arms and stones in a few days. They are lucky Israel doesn't take a page from our history and carpet bomb them into oblivion.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I believe this who **** fest has started out of a matter of convienience to draw out Iran.. or rather get the "Iranians" involved . If they do it will be considered an "act of war." It will then open the door for an invasion of Iran and the snuffing out of their nuclear program AND bring them under UN contract which the United States will no doubt be all too happy to enforce. The US then nabs control of another very rich oil field and another arab nation. The bottom line "more control."

Who are you pointing the finget at, as having started the ****fest? The US or Israel?

Either way, you're delusional.

84Bill, you must be trying to stir up the debate. Your post lately makes no sense and are provoking at best. Israel isn't bombing civilians directly. They bomb areas that have rockets shooting at them. If the Arabs put rockets in civilian areas than yes they will bomb there, makes sense doesn't it?? They are also bombing key infrastructure, such as the airport. If you have read any news you would know they did this to prevent the kidnapped soldier form being taken abroad same with the roads, again makes good sense. AND if you recall Israel didn't attack Lebanon until they crossed into Israel territory killed several soldiers and then kidnapped two of them, umm, what would we do if someone did that to us. Clue in dude.

And as for the Arabs attacking the US. Why do you think we declared war on terrorism. This is all set up to prevent further attack on US soil, a counter measure if you will. That includes making sure the other Arab nations know we are watching all fronts. We are putting a strangle hold on their ability to destroy US targets through terrorism. Has it been working, I'm sure we will never know the whole truth on that.