"Peace" movements don't bring peace but war.
Dr. Thomas Sowell

One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality. They have learned no systematic way to analyze ideas, derive their implications and test those implications against hard facts.

"Peace" movements are among those who take advantage of this widespread inability to see beyond rhetoric to realities. Few people even seem interested in the actual track record of so-called "peace" movements -- that is, whether such movements actually produce peace or war.

Take the Middle East. People are calling for a cease-fire in the interests of peace. But there have been more cease-fires in the Middle East than anywhere else. If cease-fires actually promoted peace, the Middle East would be the most peaceful region on the face of the earth instead of the most violent.

Was World War II ended by cease-fires or by annihilating much of Germany and Japan? Make no mistake about it, innocent civilians died in the process. Indeed, American prisoners of war died when we bombed Germany.

There is a reason why General Sherman said "war is hell" more than a century ago. But he helped end the Civil War with his devastating march through Georgia -- not by cease fires or bowing to "world opinion" and there were no corrupt busybodies like the United Nations to demand replacing military force with diplomacy.

There was a time when it would have been suicidal to threaten, much less attack, a nation with much stronger military power because one of the dangers to the attacker would be the prospect of being annihilated.

"World opinion," the U.N. and "peace movements" have eliminated that deterrent. An aggressor today knows that if his aggression fails, he will still be protected from the full retaliatory power and fury of those he attacked because there will be hand-wringers demanding a cease fire, negotiations and concessions.

The most catastrophic result of "peace" movements was World War II. While Hitler was arming Germany to the teeth, "peace" movements in Britain were advocating that their own country disarm "as an example to others."

British Labor Party Members of Parliament voted consistently against military spending and British college students publicly pledged never to fight for their country. If "peace" movements brought peace, there would never have been World War II.

Not only did that war lead to tens of millions of deaths, it came dangerously close to a crushing victory for the Nazis in Europe and the Japanese empire in Asia. And we now know that the United States was on Hitler's timetable after that.

For the first two years of that war, the Western democracies lost virtually every battle, all over the world, because pre-war "peace" movements had left them with inadequate military equipment and much of it obsolete. The Nazis and the Japanese knew that. That is why they launched the war.

Never forget that peace is a PC lefty code word for appeasement. That's why I get pissed every time I see some moronic peace slogan.

That latest idiocy said: "Abolish War!" How ignorant do you have to be to have a bumper sticker like that?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=pacifists_versus_peace&ns=ThomasSowell&dt=07/21/2006&page=full&comments=true

quote Originally posted by Uaana: That latest idiocy said: "Abolish War!" How ignorant do you have to be to have a bumper sticker like that?

As ignorant has you have to be to believe all the other PC Lefty bullshit. And there seems to be a LOT of ignorant (and willing) around.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: "The understanding that I have for your support stops when it endangers the welfare of this nation AND when you authorize civilian casulties inflicted on Israelis by Arabs. It's really easy to sit waaaaaay back here in the realitive safety of America and shrugg your shoulders and say "oh well thats just too bad" when Arabs inflicts harm on innocent people. NO doubt if YOU were there on the recieving end of Hezbollahs indescriminent attacks on YOUR country YOUR tune would be very different. Thats all I'm saying." Thanks for the format Bill...

I havent called anyone names unless I've been personally attacked IE called names.

No I wasn't But if I were and Israel was my home I'd have a few choices to make and in all likelyhood would want revenge. But again, thats not my argument here. My argument IS if someone says Hezbollah is being indiscriminent without seeing Israels indescriminent behavior then the issue is one sided and off balance.

Does the shoe still fit?

quote So what is your solution? You've called everyone here names... that didn't solve anything. You've put words in our mouths and defined our viewpoints for us... that didn't solve anything.

Solution to what? The only thing I care about is this countries continued security which is being jeaprodized by our support of Israel. Unfortunatly, my solution does not jibe with many and I'm forced into going along with the same 45 year old plan. A plan that is in dire need of revision because it isnt working.

quote You have blamed the US for supplying arms to Israel, but not for supplying arms to the Arab nations. You haven't blamed anyone else for supplying arms to either side.

Blame?
No, it's a fact. And yes, the supply of arms and munitions to ANY nation jeaprodizes the security of this nation.. I have stated before very clearly that I am adamently against it.

quote You don't care but you seem to care a LOT.

You are obviously misconstruing my voisterous responses and filling in the blanks with your own perceptions. I only care about "Cause and Effect" and how it negativly relates to ME and OUR country.

quote You keep saying we don't understand why the Arabs hate us and the Israelis...

That is correct.

quote yet you fail to explain that and why it's ok for them to infiltrate a neighboring country and attack it's people on a continuous basis.

I do not care why. It's not my problem.

quote It's just wrong for us to support a country defending itself because it might result in people disliking us also?

Yes. Especially when it jeaprodizes this countries security.

quote You said (paraphrasing) that we never should have entered WW2... even though we were attacked.

Why were we attacked?
Because of our TIES to England and the hotly debated Lend Lease act which supplied them with arms and munitions. AGAIN and like the arabs feel, it was construed as supporting "their" enemy which made US the enemy too. Perl Harbor and 9/11 had the exact same "cause and effect."
So when I say "we should have never entered WWII" I was refering to the not so obvious fact that our involvement started many years prior to Pearl Harbor.

quote even though we had treaties with the allies,

Which is why several founders of this country WARNED congress about our alliences with other countries. They felt that it would place this country in peril... they have been proven right on atleas two occasions if not more.

quote even though you could clearly see that there was no end to the plans of the Third Reich for world domination... they just wanted to do it a piece at a time, like those groups in the Arab countries. Just bite off the bit of the battle you think you can win and ask everyone else to stay out like your suggesting.

You mean like the attempt to control Vietnam.... Afghanistan..... Iraq? Soon Iran..North Korea? Yes, I know all about "Island hopping" used as a means of gaining control and dominating the world.

quote So if we do that and the Islamic radicals conquer Israel and then go after Spain, and then the rest of Europe etc... gathering up resources and manpower as they go, do you think they are just going to leave us alone because we said screw Israel?

You fear too much.
We are essentially an island nation far far from that side of the world AND we have the most superior weapons at our disposal to defend ourselves. We have used the atom bomb and I personally dont mind bringing it to bear upon an enemy that wants to invaid this country. So why should I care if the arabs want to take over the world when I can quite easilily wipe them off the planet with the push of a button?

quote As I twisted your quote 180 above... you don't seem to get that. There is a country TRYING to live in peace with it's neighbors but the neighbors won't stand for that and constantly attack it. You've ignored every example I've given for equivalent situations here... why is that?

Because.... I uhhhh.... don't care?

quote You continue to ignore the basic fact that Israel is the ONLY one in the conflict that has ever made any concessions for peace. They have given back 1000's of prisoners for a few, they have given up land, allowed an enemy country to be formed in that land, what the hell can they do to get peace? Try answering that...

Yes I continue to ignore it because I uhhh... don't care?

quote And I DO support Israel's right to exist. There needs to be A place where these people can say 'never again' and defend themselves without the government of a country they live in attempting to kill them or push them out. Your zionist jew friend... Scott

If you support Israel more than you support the security of this country then how about giving up your citizenship for Israelie? That way you can support YOUR country without jeaprodizing MINE. I would hail your convictions and your desire to fight as an israelie for you country. Create your own weapons and don't look to me for them. Go ahead, kill the arab man all you want, use rocks, sticks, bombe eachother back into the stone age, I do not care.
Just don't sit in this country and hide behind me, expect meand the us government to go along with your program. I don't give a rats ass about Israel or your desire to dominate the arab man and bring him under control. Youd figure that after 4000 yeas of this crap they might have learned something? Now you want me involved? Fat chance! I'll only go along with it because I have NO CHOICE (****ing democracy ) and I'll do so kicking, screaming, protesting and dragging my feet the whole damn way! I don't want your hell invaiding my life.

Whats wrong with coming to America? I know it isn't perfect but atleas we can all get along and live in peace. There is only a few requirements.
FIGHT and DEFEND this country at every turn and never allow anyones ideology to jeaprodize its security.
ALWAYS place America and its image above any other and never ever assume that because we are a great people with a great idea it means we can spread it through out the globe at gun point or that someone somewhere wont try to destroy it for your desire to do so.

Thats all.
Your American friend.
Bill

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 07-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I havent called anyone names unless I've been personally attacked IE called names.

Hahahahahahahahahaha! Like how I never called you names, but you felt the need to tell me I'm unbalanced, uncaring, and uneducated/ignorant? Or do those not count because they have more than 5 letters in them? Or is it ok because at some point in the past I've called you names, so you don't have to wait for it now? Pre-emptive strike maybe?

Anyway, you keep telling yourself you're taking the high road. You're the one all bent out of shape and screaming like a 5 year old because no one will give you your way. You still haven't told me why its ok for Hezbollah to attack anyone and not ok for Isreal to attack military targets, or any other targets for that matter. Did you think I'd forget about your little glaring contradiction? Its ok, just keep telling everyone that its me changing the subject and I'm sure they'll believe you. Why don't you post that picture of the wounded Lebanese girl again, I'm sure you haven't completely overused it already.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Hahahahahahahahahaha! Like how I never called you names, but you felt the need to tell me I'm unbalanced, uncaring, and uneducated/ignorant? Or do those not count because they have more than 5 letters in them? Or is it ok because at some point in the past I've called you names, so you don't have to wait for it now? Pre-emptive strike maybe?

Well... I didn't call you an ******* .

quote Anyway, you keep telling yourself you're taking the high road.

And you do the same.

quote You're the one all bent out of shape and screaming like a 5 year old because no one will give you your way.

I'll try to keep that in mind when the next 9/11 happens.

quote You still haven't told me why its ok for Hezbollah to attack anyone and not ok for Isreal to attack military targets, or any other targets for that matter.

Because maybe I don't have one... OR do you think perhaps I may really mean what I say when I say I DO NOT CARE?

quote Did you think I'd forget about your little glaring contradiction?

Nope.. Have you forgotten mine or are you just ignoring me they way you felt I was ignoring you?

quote Its ok, just keep telling everyone that its me changing the subject and I'm sure they'll believe you.

Thanks for the permission, I appriciate it.

quote Why don't you post that picture of the wounded Lebanese girl again, I'm sure you haven't completely overused it already.

Why?
It's not like anyone gives a sheit anyway.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: The most remarkable thing about a great deal of this thread, is its similarity to the actual strife going on in the Middle East...two main protagonists, who REFUSE to accept anything the other says

Only in reverse. In the Middle East you have dozens of Arab countries against one tiny Jewish state and it is the Jewish state that is being victimized. In this discussion it is Bill versus EVERYONE else. But in this case, it is the "everyone else" who are being victimized. Epistomology tells us who has the credibility.

I don't suppose you read the very first post in this thread have you?

quote Originally posted by Toddster: In this discussion it is Bill versus EVERYONE else.

I didn't think so.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I don't suppose you read the very first post in this thread have you? .

Oh I read it. And for all of Jazz's shortcomings he is, it would appear, a fair minded person who doesn't hate people by virtiue of their parentage or place of birth. Take a closer look Bill, have you noticed that Jazz hasn't come to your anti-semetic defence since page one?

No, because Bill only sees what Bill wants to see.

Ok, so Bill doesn't care a bit... he's just screaming over the internet cursing people out about the issue.

Doesn't give a squat about the Lebonese or the Israelis but keeps posting about Lebonese kids getting hit and now about UN personel getting hit... but he doesn't care. Posts about how this has set Lebanon back 20 years... but doesn't care.

Doesn't care about anything that doesn't effect the security of the US but we aren't even in this fight. There are zero US soldiers/advisors on the ground in Israel or Lebanon... so why the vitrale attitude in responses to those Bill doesn't agree with?

I have a viewpoint. It's simple, it's pretty clear.

Israel is a recognized soverign nation.
Israel is a democratic nation.
Israel has one religous tenant... if your Jewish, you can come and be a citizen.
Israel doesn't limit the practice of any other faith, enforce any religous regulations stopping any other faith or lack there of. Doesn't make you identify your faith on your license/ID.
They have a free and open society where improving the land, and themselves is the goal.
Their ideals pretty much match those of the US, work hard and suceed, be free to live your life.

I support their right to exist... my viewpoint, pretty clear.

Much as I support the right of New York to exist, or LA... why should I care? They aren't my states... Why should I care that the Twin Towers got hit... NIMBY. Why not limit our support to our state... or street... screw the neighbors on the next block, I shouldn't care if gang bangers are shooting the kids and I shouldn't try to support those neighbors because the gang bangers might come after me in retaliation. WRONG! Once they get control over that area they are moving my way. I can support fixing the problem or wait til they are shooting at me and hope someone else comes to help me. Yeah there is risk associated with trying to support people you think are doing the right thing, but there are rewards also.

I support the right of the jewish people to have one freaking place in the world they aren't going to be slaughtered with the consent of the government.

I believe we need to make a point that we aren't going to sell out the rest of the world to the Islamic extremists. That we as a country that ensures religous freedom needs to show that when they get to us, we aren't just going to roll over and play dead.

This country has a real bad habit of turning tail on it's allies, I'd like to see that change. I'd like to have seen the Kurds backed up in the first Gulf War. I'd like to see Afghanistan warlords all wacked and their constitution made non-secular

I was raised in the Jewish faith... I'm also the son of an Irish protestant father. I know what religous wars are about.
I was attacked at times as a kid because "You killed Jesus!"
I was bombarded with racism from comments about cheap jews, jew you down, made to sing christmas and easter songs in school, etc..
I'm not a religous jew, I don't believe in god... but when someone is talking about killing the jews, I know from history that they mean to get to me eventually. To the rest of the world, if I'm born a jew... I'm a damn jew.

Combine the above... Israel is the only country where it's pretty much a gaurantee that no law is going to be put into effect outlawing my existance. I had the relatives with the tattoos marking them from concentration camps, so I KNOW Stiffler is a racist and revisionist.

I give a damn about what happens in the world... Bill states he only cares how it effects this countr's security. I care about the long term health of this world, but act on the local health of my corner of it. Me going off to fight for Israel wouldn't help them a bit, me working on keeping drainage ditches flowing here, working on watershed plans, working for the future by helping local college and county programs, working on crime issues seems a lot more helpful than me in a uniform in a foreign country. But I fully support their right to defend themselves from incursions by people looking to wipe them out. I also fully support the idea of the North Korean people rising up and taking back their country, but suspect that they are so brainwashed and so victimized that isn't going to happen. I support the idea of peace between India and Pakistan... and want Pakistan to stop screwing with India, does that make me an Indiaist Buddha lover?

I care how it effects the worlds security, when it comes to THIS country I care more about how it effects our Freedoms than our security. Innocent blood gets spilled in a free society, you don't take the freedoms away to correct that, you don't turn a blind eye on others being attacked so that maybe the bully won't attack you. Isn't this country supposed to be something special? Supposed...

Being a complete isolationist country isn't going to stop bad things from happening here. Did we do something to provoke Japan into attacking us at Pearl Harbor? Yep, we were in competition with them and we were an open society of mixed races and religons, thus something to hate and conquer. We were an obstacle to them conquering China because we controlled the oil (hmm... oil again). Should we have let them destroy our fleet and sat out the war demoralized as they hoped?

Thats some pretty funny stuff. I might retire earlier than I planned. I might try sueing for compensation from Irag for raising my fuel costs, wasting my tax money for soldiers to fight over there, and being a severe detriment to my health due to stress, increased blood pressure and general aggravation along with loss of piece of mind in that I cant do my work correctly.

LMAO.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: You're going to love this then: " "Arab Americans sue US Government for descrimination" http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/aadc/aaadcrice72406cmp.pdf Apparently they think George Bush hasn't done enough to help the Arabs during this conflict and a number of individuals are suiing the government.

Enough talk about islam taking europe.. Europe is much to strong for that. They will simply outbreed europe. Look whats going on in france by 2020 it is expected muslums will overpopulate french natives in their own homeland.

Yeah guy, that's me and a bag of chips.
Atleast I stand for what I believe in. I don't jeprodize anyone for my sake or anyone who isn't willing to stand on their own. I believe in America, not the pandering whimps or special interest groups that are so prevelent in decision making today. I'd like to believe that I make a difference for MY people and MY country which so many could care less about but the rality is I'm alone.
Yes, unfortunately I do hate. However, I do not hate the jew or the arab, I do not hate the black man or hispanic, the red man or the yellow, but I do hate all those who do not place what I love above themselves as I would like. Don't worry, I'm just as much of a coward and unwilling as the next guy. I'm just a weak cowardly pos servant with more bark than bite. I'm also an unwilling slave to a master too weak and scared to even attempt his own freedom and so cowardly that I do not even want the life that I have been aforded. Yet for some reason I want it for others.

Support who ever you want Scott but pleas take into consideration the enemies you make. I have a daughter that is seven years old and knows no enemies. She is the sweetest girl in the world and loves everyone. I don't want her to ever in her god blessed life cross pathes with yours.


Am I making myself clear?

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa:

Actually bill, if you do some checking, youll find the US armed Osama in the first place.

Heres an idea that may put the whole thing a little closer to homr, sort of a role playing hypothetical game:

Drug lords living and working out of Mexico, and allowed to stay there, start lobbing 100 rockets a day into Los Angeles suburbs. Mexican government does nothing to remove them and the Mexican people just sort of ignore them generally. (drug lords=hezbolla, Mexico is a soverign nation on the border=Lebanon, US is the much more overwhelming military force=(Israel)

Using that scenario, what would you do as the US government..................?

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-27-2006).]

Actually roger since America isn't threatend (at present) in that manner your point is mute.

However, Panama is a pretty good answer to the question you posed.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison:

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Actually roger since America isn't threatend (at present) in that manner your point is mute. However, Panama is a pretty good answer to the question you posed.

It's moot because it would show you the error in your logic.

You seem to think everyone that doesn't agree with you thinks Israel can do no wrong and we are unable to understand the plight of the Lebanese. It's not that we don't understand - we just don't agree with you Bill.

Let me rephrase that. We think you're wrong and we don't agree with you, Bill.
Can I make that any clearer?

You know what?
I do not care if you do or don't. Just do me a favor and get off my god damn ass about it.

As I see it you can not stand the fact that I DO NOT CARE and it drives you absolutly crazy.... so effing hate me for it and move the hell on!
I don't need you special seal of aproval to LIVE and FEEL what I want no matter how god damn much you would want me to... You cant pull a string and expect me to react in a predictable way. I'm not your ****ing puppet!

You completely ignored my previous post. WHY?

NEVERMIND! I already know! YOU DONT ****ING CARE!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: It's moot because it would show you the error in your logic. You seem to think everyone that doesn't agree with you thinks Israel can do no wrong and we are unable to understand the plight of the Lebanese. It's not that we don't understand - we just don't agree with you Bill. Let me rephrase that. We think you're wrong and we don't agree with you, Bill. Can I make that any clearer?

I personally think there are a few 'Mavericks' in the Israeli Airforce, who are trigger-happy, and also have a personal grudge.They target something, and blow it out of the world, and probably crow about the 'kill' over their radios between each other.I think this is what happened when the car fleeing from the bombardment was blown to bits, savagely injuring a young boy (90%body burns) and killing others. There was no way the pilot could verify the car was linked to the Hezbollah movement (which it is now known it WASN'T), yet attacked it anyway. Israel should, in MY opinion, accept responsibility for the injuries to civilians, financially OR medically.You will respond to this, no doubt, by asking who will compensate the Israelis for their civilian wounded? Impossible to solve, really, because Hezbollah aren't actually a defined Country, who can be forced to pay.But seeing that young man, his face burned away, and a great deal of the flesh gone from the rest of his body, trembling in shock, and probably going to die, brings back memories of the child in Vietnam, running down the road naked, with her flesh burned and shredded.
Equally, I feel horror, grief and despair when I see the horrendous injuries suffered by innocent Israelis.
Which ever side you choose to support, it is apparent to me, anyway, that this will never go away.Ever.Israel is, rightly or wrongly, a festering thorn in the side of the Middle East.And will remain so.Because of differing religious beliefs.And those will never change either.The only answer that I can see, is to pull the thorn, and place it somewhere where it is wanted, and accepted.And find an alternative fuel source to oil.Both impossible at the moment, or the foreseeable future.
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish:nal .The only answer that I can see, is to pull the thorn, and place it somewhere where it is wanted, and accepted. Nick

Nick,
Not trying to argue on this, just wondering where you'd suggest they would want to go? WHo should donte the land? Would they lose their right to goven themselves and be absorbed into the government where they are re-located to? The land they are on is holy ground to them.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: You know what? I do not care if you do or don't. Just do me a favor and get off my god damn ass about it. As I see it you can not stand the fact that I DO NOT CARE and it drives you absolutly crazy.... so effing hate me for it and move the hell on! I don't need you special seal of aproval to LIVE and FEEL what I want no matter how god damn much you would want me to... You cant pull a string and expect me to react in a predictable way. I'm not your ****ing puppet! You completely ignored my previous post. WHY? NEVERMIND! I already know! YOU DONT ****ING CARE!!!!!!

You scream a lot for someone who says they don't care. I don't mind that you don't agree with me. I believe you have the free will to think for yourself, just as I have the free will to think for myself.

I understand your point of view and honestly I wish I could agree with it. It would be nice if we could just leave well enough alone and everything would be hunky dory. I just don't believe reality is like that.

I'm sorry this upsets you so much, but in your efforts to show us how much we don't understand your point of view or Arab points of view, you seem to be overlooking the fact that maybe, just maybe, we have examined those points of view. An exchange of ideas is one thing, but this constant back and forth restating the same thing over and over again accomplishes nothing. Much like most of the middle east peace talks.

If you don't care and believe that leaving well enough alone will bring peace, try that same tactic with this thread and see if the flames die down. If you can't or won't do that in an internet thread, it's no wonder entire nations can't or won't do the same thing in the interest of world peace.

FWIW, I don't hate you for your opinoins, Bill. I don't hate you at all. I respect your opinoins, even when I disagree with them because you are one to take a principled stance based on your own views of right and wrong and stick by what you believe. I respect that. I also consider you a true patriot, in the historical sense, in that you'd rather die fighting tyranny than submit to it. (if I'm mistaken, I apologize) I find we do agree on many things, but the extent or severity is different. I see a problem and want to work within the system to fix it. You see the system as the problem. We both see the same problem, but our interpretations and solutions are different. Our ultimate goals, however, seem to be compatible. The only thing about you that bothers me is when you start arguing about any position, you get tunnel vision that blinds you to other viewpoints and see any disagreement as a personal attack. That's when the flames start flying and any resonable discourse collapses into a bunch of snide remarks.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: BIll, I really don't understand why you get so indignant, your posts are infamatory, you call foks names and belittle them at every opportunity.

You really don't understand why my posts are inflamatory?

Perhaps if you pulled your "I thee better than thow" head out of your ass you might be able figure it out.

quote You're not the only one that does this, but you are by far the one that does it most frequently IMO.

Well. your opinion sucks!

quote I know, you don't care what others think. OK. What do you expect, hugs and kisses for treating everyone else like crap just because they don't agree with you.

I give just as much as I recieve, anything else is like getting blood from a stone.

quote Adults can have different view points without going nuclear on each other, well most folks can.

Well then leave me with mine points and opinions you god damn arrogant ******* !!! Thats what pisses me off more than anything else you can ever say! You feel that your **** don't stink when I'm standing here telling you that it does!!

quote Grow up.

**** off.

quote OK, now you can come back and call me a dumbass again.

Thanks for the permission. jackass!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You scream a lot for someone who says they don't care. I don't mind that you don't agree with me. I believe you have the free will to think for yourself, just as I have the free will to think for myself.

Look you arab hater.. It's not that you disagree with me that is getting my ass out of shape, it's the double standards and blind accusations ABOUT ME by YOU that are doing it.

quote I understand your point of view and honestly I wish I could agree with it. It would be nice if we could just leave well enough alone and everything would be hunky dory. I just don't believe reality is like that.

THEN DONT AGREE!!!! JESUS H EFFING CHRIST!! I don't care IF you DO or DONT agree.. just DO NOT post judgements on my character for voicing opinons on how I FEEL.

quote I'm sorry this upsets you so much

BULLSHIT!!

Don lie to me, I can aleady see the "BUT" clause coming!

quote , but in your efforts to show us how much we don't understand your point of view or Arab points of view, you seem to be overlooking the fact that maybe, just maybe, we have examined those points of view. An exchange of ideas is one thing, but this constant back and forth restating the same thing over and over again accomplishes nothing. Much like most of the middle east peace talks.

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST OR YOUR FINAL SOLUTION!!! I ONLY CARE HOW IT IS ADVERSELY EFFECTING AMERICA!!! Hello??? Clue phone!!!!! 4000 years!!! STILL HAPPENING!!!!!

quote If you don't care and believe that leaving well enough alone will bring peace, try that same tactic with this thread and see if the flames die down.

LOL!! OMG!!!
Yeah.. and I suppose you can have it at GUN POINT but WTF are you going to do when someone says go ahead... ****ING SHOOT ME!!!

quote If you can't or won't do that in an internet thread, it's no wonder entire nations can't or won't do the same thing in the interest of world peace.

THERE will never be peace as long as you think you can JAM your version of peace down someones. You can try to sell that bullshit peace just like you sold me on the quote above that says "IM SORRY...... BUT " Don't EVEN try to hand me a **** sandwich and expect me to believe it's cosher ballogna just because YOU SAY SO.

quote FWIW, I don't hate you for your opinoins, Bill. I don't hate you at all.

That MAY be so but your actions and opinions clearly prove otherwise. If you cared about america or even me you would not place it in harms way or hide behind it like it were some god damn personal body armor entitleling you to take over the ****ing world. **** that "we are the worl, we are the children" **** !! You dont even care about my daughters life and the enemies you are making FOR HER!!

quote I respect your opinoins,

Yeah, whatever!
BLAHHH BLAAAHHHHHHHHH BLAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

Nothing to add, I just can't let Bill have the last word.

Funny you should pick that song, Bill. Its about a guy who's losing his mind.

Hi blackrams!! I guess I answered that myself, in the last sentence of the post I really do think this is unsolvable.As to it being a Holy place for the Jews, I understand that too...But it seems a high price to pay..not only for the Jews, but also the Arabs too.
Nick

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Nick, Not trying to argue on this, just wondering where you'd suggest they would want to go? WHo should donte the land? Would they lose their right to goven themselves and be absorbed into the government where they are re-located to? The land they are on is holy ground to them.

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fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Growing old is harder than growing up.
Responsibility: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..
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quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Hi blackrams!! I guess I answered that myself, in the last sentence of the post I really do think this is unsolvable.As to it being a Holy place for the Jews, I understand that too...But it seems a high price to pay..not only for the Jews, but also the Arabs too. Nick

Nick,
Agreed,
Compromise just doesn't seem to be in the cards. Too bad everyone can't live in harmony but, just as this thread has gone to crap, so is the Middle East.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Funny you should pick that song, Bill. Its about a guy who's losing his mind.

I knew I liked you for a reason Scott!

My post was PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. Now lets go with that and quit beating around the bush and tell us what you would do in my little scenario....not whether its a true fact or not. Your answer stated absolutely nothing....typical

Simple to just PRETEND my scenario IS happening and answer the question.

Here's an interesting article from the Lebanese point of view: http://utkast.livejournal.com/24534.html

It's a blog, so I can't vouch for it's accuracy. It could very well be propaganda. The only independant verifiaction I have is a friend of mine who's from Lebanon and has family still living there. He pretty much agrees that they are glad Israel is attacking Hezzbollah. He doesn't see it as an attack on Lebanon, but an attack against an occupying force inside Lebanon.

My friend is Arab/Lebanese (dual citizenship), but he's Christian, not Muslim, so I'm sure that affects his viewpoint. Christians are definitely a minority, and he says it's usually not safe to let it be publically known that you're a Christian.

over 2 weeks later and still Bill has not said what hed do in Israels place. Guess thats his stand, bury his head in the sand and hezbos will go away.....LOL

Here is an interesting link: Click here

It has a number of gun camera footage clips showing Hizbullah firing from urban centers. Of course it's Israeli gun footage so I'm sure that someone will claim that it's bogus.

[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 08-13-2006).]

The last pic on the page that was linked just above.


July 22, 2006: IDF forces destroyed a vehicle in the village of Mervachin, in southern Lebanon, containing anti-tank missiles. A missile stockpile was found in the basement of the village mosque, seen on photograph.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-13-2006).]

Go ahead Mr. Garrison. Bob up and down on the US governments lap to show your approval and support of israel as both countries attempt to eliminate the dirty little arabs and take their land.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: over 2 weeks later and still Bill has not said what hed do in Israels place. Guess thats his stand, bury his head in the sand and hezbos will go away.....LOL

I'll try to keep that in mind the next time one of them "hezbos" flies an airplane into a US sky scraper or straps a dirty bomb to his back and detonates it in down town NY city, I'll be the first one to say "I told you so." Sorry to disapoint you Mr. Garrison but I just don't share your homocida enthusiasm. I'm not for the willful and wanten distruction of America and I'm not willing to sacrefice my freedom for some illusion of safety.

It really doesn't matter if I support israel because I'm part of the unwilling 49% who is forced to go along with your delusions of grandure. 23% of my paycheck supports the US government and its "allies" so shut the **** up roger. It's pretty clear who I support and it's crystal clear to OBL, al-quieda and them hezbos as well.
Yeah.. HaHa! It's pretty clear how far up my ass my head is.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 08-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yeah.. HaHa! It's pretty clear how far up my ass my head is.

Hmmm....
http://www.islam-watch.org/AmilImani/IslamUsefulidiots.htm

[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 08-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Sourmug: http://www.islam-watch.org/AmilImani/IslamUsefulidiots.htm

Wow!

What an ass.

quote Amil Imani is an Iranian born, pro-democracy activist who resides in the United States of America. He is a poet, writer, literary translator, novelist and an essayist who has been writing and speaking out for the struggling people of his native land, Iran. Amil Imani's Home Page: www.amilimani.com

He is also a coward advocating US intervention in Iran. Hey Amil! Take you effing pro democracy ass back to Iran and do it yourself. With dipshitz like this running around who needs enemys?

“Democracy is indispensable to Socialism.” - V. I. Lenin

“Socialism leads to Communism.” - Karl Marx

As a minority member of the much despised American democracy I'd like to award Amil the virtual swift kick in the ass.

quote Originally posted by Sourmug: Hmmm.... http://www.islam-watch.org/AmilImani/IslamUsefulidiots.htm

Your response is about what I expected it to be, you completely missed the point.

quote Originally posted by Sourmug: Hmmm.... http://www.islam-watch.org/AmilImani/IslamUsefulidiots.htm

I could have quoted so much of that as being relevant, it's easier to just repeat the link.

In plain English this time:

Do you want peace? Win the war. Win it convincingly, win it completely, win it permanently. Do not impose an arbitrary, premature end; it must run its course. Stamp out the brushfire completely, lest it flare up again worse than before.

Do you want peace? Win the war. Then you will have peace. -fogglethorpe, July 2006

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Who is John Galt?