Madcurl...My drivers side is leaking and the door won't stay up. Overall, Both of my struts are a little weaker than they should be. I need to remove one to get some specs from it.
I don't understand. Is there something about the Fiero that make this more difficult? Do I not understand something about vertical door hinges? Is it just incompetence or an incredible challenge???
------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
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12:30 AM
drumwzrd Member
Posts: 236 From: San Mateo,Ca Registered: Aug 2006
Thats what I was wondering....12 pages of procrastination with no firm results? Every other car has these available so I don't see what the problem is....Madcurl has a set as well as many others....what is the problem???? Take a set with blank plates, drill them out to fit the Fiero. Sounds basic to me !
[This message has been edited by drumwzrd (edited 08-13-2007).]
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12:48 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
Exactly drum! I understand that there could even be other changes necessary to make it function properly on a Fiero because there are some peculiarities with the car, but there are people who have them, working properly, so it MUST be possible!?!?!
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01:09 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Madcurl...My drivers side is leaking and the door won't stay up. Overall, Both of my struts are a little weaker than they should be. I need to remove one to get some specs from it.
Due to the very heavy Fiero doors, you will no doubt need stronger or heavy duty ones. I hope the end connections are applicable. I had a link somewhere of a company that sells them....I need to find that link. Sorry to hear about your situation.
------------------ "Anyone can make a copy of something, it may look good but it never is the real car. Make something from your imagination, something unique, something nobody has, anything is possible and, ideas can be a reality and Archie and the Crew and make your Dreams into a reality."
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02:18 AM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
I guess that market potential is too small and therefore doesn't attract serious companies.
quote
Originally posted by toddshotrods: I don't understand. Is there something about the Fiero that make this more difficult? Do I not understand something about vertical door hinges? Is it just incompetence or an incredible challenge???
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 08-13-2007).]
Chris wanted to be a sponsor at the show we held last Saturday (39 Fieros BTW) and I PM'd him and offered him a table for his product, no charge.
He never got back to me, even after I tried to contact him a few times.
At the show, we had two of his installs. Eclipse's is just not finished properly and Taz had a stack of washers on one of the parts to make it work. All told, pretty sloppy business practice. The pity is there was quite a bit of interest, and interest usually means some sales. Too bad.
Arn
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09:23 AM
PFF
System Bot
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I guess that market potential is too small and therefore doesn't attract serious companies.
That's it...
If you are Decah and you can make a Civic hinge with 2,000,000 potential customers, or a Fiero hinge with about 1,200 (I'm guessing) customers which is it going to be?
The fact is, it's not that hard a thing to do, the problem is cost.
A blank Decah hinge is $1,200.
Then you pay some shop a couple of hours to modify it, another $150 or so, then add in shipping and some reasonable profit and the hinge costs $1,500 minimum.
The average Fiero, (i.e. cheapo) is going to complain that they are not going to pay $1,500 for a couple of hunks of metal. They want it for $15.
The people that are willing to pay, have paid the price to have it done properly.
Don't forget you're talking about a hole in the wall business here. A couple of young guys starting out. To fabricate the hinges and sell them, even 10 cars is a good chunk of change. I still don't get it.
Arn
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10:33 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
I'm starting to get that it is mainly a cost issue now. I guess this thread grew to twelve pages relatively quickly because of the promise of a low price. Actually, $1500 is not that bad for a professionally installed product on a low-volume specialty car. You have to expect to pay more when there's less volume, or do more work - that's just the reality of it.
I thought the problem was more of a supply and demand problem. For example, if there weren't enough shops willing to adapt a universal design, a dedicated design would be necessary. Or if shops wanted a ridiculously high price to install them.
Promising a low price product to a low-volume market is business suicide. The passion for the cars, low-budget thing, and hunger for mods, kind of set this community up for disaster; making it appealing to con artists too.
------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
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11:15 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
I'm starting to get that it is mainly a cost issue now. I guess this thread grew to twelve pages relatively quickly because of the promise of a low price. Actually, $1500 is not that bad for a professionally installed product on a low-volume specialty car. You have to expect to pay more when there's less volume, or do more work - that's just the reality of it.
I thought the problem was more of a supply and demand problem.
Actually low volume vehicles are the 70's (Caprice, Monte Carlo's and Boss Hog Caddy's) and the price isn't $1500 but $2200+. On my first visit I saw a Prowler being fitted with a VDC kit...now that’s a very low volume car. As for the cost, I being the guinea pig got mine installed in 2003 for $1500; later on others did decide to jump on board and the prices sky rocketed to $2200. The original company had a few shady characters and the company went belly-up.
In 2005 I went back for more beating and got another set for $1500 installed and in 2007 I got my last two sets. Back in late 2002 I asked a Fiero vendor to make them; he decided to pass on them. Are VDC kits profitable enough to support a full pledge business? No, but it's a nice chunk of change if you ask me.
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12:17 PM
twocoda Member
Posts: 159 From: Port Elgin,Ontario,Canada Registered: Feb 2006
holy **** ..hasnt this thread taken ANOTHER turn of events..although i was starting to feel pretty good about this product (possitive feedback from Jay and Dave )..the concern of after purchase service remained a major concern for me. Im not making excuses for these guys but they seem to have been thrown a few major setbacks that is unfortunate and how they act now in making things right for the issues at hand in a professional and timely manner will be the defining point as to whether or not i invest into thier product.
Chris- there seems to be a dark cloud on the horizon that is managable from a communication perspective. This isnt something that isnt beyond your control ( like the break in ) so take the management position and do the follow up service required. If by chance ...you come back into this forum and give any excuses IMHO should not be accepted. Your availability should have been posted in here on a regular basis to keep your exsisting customers happy and perpective buyers at ease to avoid this rollercoaster of negative/positive feelings.Like the sign on your biz door. OPEN or CLOSED with hours of operation and availability. Re - reading through the thread there seems to be a common consensus that you and Kyle arent "bad guys" in person but in the virtual world some may think otherwise. Or maybe your just in over your head ??????????? Please communicate and let us know! There isnt a problem that cant be solved some are more challenging but DO have resolutions.Your only as good as your mistakes but success will be measured on how you deal with them.
"A" always comes before "B" and "C" (communication) always comes before "S" (sales)
Jay and Dave- Truely looking forward to your reviews (myself (fiero related)and friends(several other different applications) will be reading your words of wisdom in dealing with these guys if they are worthy of dealing with. The process of tweeking is supposed to be fun (recreation) not a PITA!
------------------ It isnt re-creation....its recreation!!!!
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12:32 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I'm starting to get that it is mainly a cost issue now. I guess this thread grew to twelve pages relatively quickly because of the promise of a low price. Actually, $1500 is not that bad for a professionally installed product on a low-volume specialty car. You have to expect to pay more when there's less volume, or do more work - that's just the reality of it.
I thought the problem was more of a supply and demand problem. For example, if there weren't enough shops willing to adapt a universal design, a dedicated design would be necessary. Or if shops wanted a ridiculously high price to install them.
Promising a low price product to a low-volume market is business suicide. The passion for the cars, low-budget thing, and hunger for mods, kind of set this community up for disaster; making it appealing to con artists too.
I think this is it in a nutshell.
Madcurl had arranged for the Floridian Connection to do just what I said, take the Universal Design and modify them to be bolt on, but the price was in the $1,700 neighborhood...
And people balked at the price. They want them for less, like maybe $500 for a set.
Like you said I could go out and buy a truck load of the blank hinges, and have them modified, and after I did all that, have over $1,500 invested in each set and then people only want to pay $500. I'm going to lose a lot of money doing that, which is why no one has done it.
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12:51 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Is there even a quality set available for $500 - I mean in the highest volume kits available (like a Honda Civic or something). I see some of the thinking in their design that could make the prices lower. If parts like the billet hinge block are truly universal then it's just a matter of getting the steel plates cut for each model. To do this and meet a shop's overhead is still a challenge to say the least. At $500 a pop, you would have to make most of your money on installation labor, which makes the point moot for the bolt-on customer. Business looks easy from the outside, but crunching numbers can make "great ideas" look stupid on paper.
[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 08-13-2007).]
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02:55 PM
TXGOOD Member
Posts: 5410 From: Austin, Texas Registered: Feb 2006
What I don`t get is when people do come through with a product such as this and even get it on a car and then it just needs a bit more tweaking but for some reason they just up and drop it. I have learned on this forum that people on here are fairly patient when waiting for something but they do like to be informed. Everytime something like this happens it just makes it harder for the next person with a product to go forward without people being skeptical of their intentions.
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03:03 PM
PFF
System Bot
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
What I don`t get is when people do come through with a product such as this and even get it on a car and then it just needs a bit more tweaking but for some reason they just up and drop it. I have learned on this forum that people on here are fairly patient when waiting for something but they do like to be informed. Everytime something like this happens it just makes it harder for the next person with a product to go forward without people being skeptical of their intentions.
Or once the item is produced, others will undermine the unique build by making copies. This was the case involving B&B Spyders in FL; they copied Tina's kit that wasn't completed by Car Excess Fiero VDC build. They inturn sold them for $1600 which was $200 less than Car Excess. Yes, it's a dog-eat-dog world we live in and everything is reduced to the lowest dollor amount.
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03:29 PM
Eclipse Member
Posts: 2040 From: Woodstock, Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 2004
Just to clarify a few things, Chris and his brother have many hinges available, and offer more product than just hinges. I've seen their hinges for Eclipses, Sunfires, MX3s , Malibus etc.. They are not new at this. They will also sell seats, rims, lights, neon and have access to a large product line, and did a beautiful job on the sunfire that was at their shop (now gutted after the breakin). They are new to London, coming from Wallaceburg. They are not a new business, it's simply a new shop here in town.
I know most of the communication problem dropped after their breakin. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
Just to clarify a few things, Chris and his brother have many hinges available, and offer more product than just hinges. I've seen their hinges for Eclipses, Sunfires, MX3s , Malibus etc.. They are not new at this. They will also sell seats, rims, lights, neon and have access to a large product line, and did a beautiful job on the sunfire that was at their shop (now gutted after the breakin). They are new to London, coming from Wallaceburg. They are not a new business, it's simply a new shop here in town.
I know most of the communication problem dropped after their breakin. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
How is their communication with others and did you get their cell number?
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05:38 PM
Eclipse Member
Posts: 2040 From: Woodstock, Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 2004
They seem to have left the MX3 team in the a similar boat (the link is a few pages back). Occasionally they get an email from Kyle. If they get in touch with me and help make things right, I will consider changing my mind, but to me communication is everything. I don't like being left in the dark. This comes on the coat tails of another incident involving a large renovation on my home in April, where our contractor took off with my money and left a very large area of our house unfinished and a hazard to my young children. I know this has nothing to do with Xtreme Doors, but it has reduced my tolerance significantly.
As for numbers, I have Chris's home number. Both of their cell phones are not working. His lady friend always answers and says he is not available.
Here's my official write up on my experience with Xtreme Doors....
Xtreme Doors came onto our scene as a couple of young guys with some neat ideas. Right off the bat, there were some concerns about their business style. Apparently first impressions are worth something and reputations are everything. I too was a young guy with a business plan once, so I wanted to help these guys give their reputation a kick start. In the interest of full disclosure, a cool new set of lambo doors for my pride and joy was not to be overlooked as a rather decent perk.
So, with all that said and done, what is my verdict?
Well, yes my doors move up and down. The doors have pulled the GFX away from the fenders, the fender trime is missing, and the driver’s side door falls due to a faulty strut. The boys at Xtreme Doors vowed to replace the strut, but the new part has yet to materialize. Due to a flaw in the prototype design, the doors also do not lay flat even with the fenders. Despite promises to fix this, or swap the prototypes for a set of production hinges, I have yet to see any action on that front..
During my cars long stay at the Xtreme Doors shop, there was a robbery. My rear plate was stolen, as was my brand new stereo (less than 2 weeks old). The boys were very apologetic, and made many promises to replace them, or at the least compensate me for my losses. This has not happened.
So what do I have now?
A car with a hole in my dash where my stereo used to be, a drivers side door that will clobber you, given the opportunity (nearly injuring my wife), and various pieces of trim and GFX hanging or missing from the car that I have spent the last 3 year working on. And, to add insult to injury, I am out the money to replace my plates and stickers.
Repeated calls and emails to Chris have yet to be returned.
Unlike Jay - I paid $600 for 90 degree hinges and paid them $300 to do the install. I sent the money by paypal and was able to make an appointment to get the work done. I left the car with them for a week and picked it up the next Sunday.
They neglected to tell me they just had a break-in. Had I known that I would have asked for money back and loaded the car on the trailer. I also left my trailer outside their shop for the week. I had asked them if it was safe and they said no problems or issues (the first of many lies). Two tires on the trailer were slashed during the week. Again, if they told me about their trouble I would have never left the trailer at their location.
When I picked up the car Chris and his brother said nothing about the fact they put on 70 degree doors instead of the 90's I'd ordered and paid money up front with. I compared my doors to Jay's last Saturday and they are exactly the same as his 70's. They also tried to hide the fact that when the doors opened they popped off the bumper guard trim just in front of the door. The doors closed well - but both doors were sticking out about 2.5mm at the front ( and have a corresponding gap in the door seal in that area). I pointed this out and they said they could fix it. I would come back in the next week or two for a final fitting. When I got home later that day I noticed my driver door lock would not function with the window up. I also had a full appreciation for how both of "the boys" hid their flaws of the install - not to mention the scratch they put in my clear - on the fender - on the driver side front fender. I had asked for an invoice and they promised to get me one. They also promised to get a spacer fabbed to replace the 8-10 washers used to space out the door stops.
I came back two weeks later and they fixed the driver door lock problem - and made a small adjustment for the driver side guide post. I asked again for the invoice and Chris promised the machined spacers would be available in a week - two at worse. It's been over a month and nada - zilch - nothing.
I spoke to them about how important it is to return calls and email. I also gave them contact info ofr Jay and the MX3 guy. I told them both really wanted to talk to them. Chris promised me he would get my invoice and gave me his home phone number. He also promised he'd return any calls I made in less than 24 hrs. I've made two such calls with no returns in a month. His girlfriend answers - and I know he's there because I can here him in the background. I was born during the day - just not yesterday.
As it stands, the struts are week. They need to be able to handle about 10lbs more weight. The fit isn't perfect (at the front) and if I adjust the door mount bolts to move the door in I only make the issue about the front of the door hitting the fender worse when opening the door. They need to modify their design a little - plain and simple.
So as it stands - They charged me $100 more than the 70's for the 70's and told me they were 90's. You - dear reader - figure it out. Call it theft, deceit or fraud - you pick it. They owe me for two slashed trailer tires ($180). They owe me an invoice. They owe me four spacers and replacement machined parts for the two lower door guides - with ball joint ends - not a screw head as is currently in the setup. You should know that your paypal payment gets redirected to another email address. I have the details and might supply this information to the Province and Feds to do some research on their not collecting Provincial and Federal taxes, or declaring income. Could be some interesting explaining for them to do with an audit through Revenue Canada. I have many goverment contacts - so it's only a call away.
One PFF member asked me to purchase a set for them - and even a call to them with another order does not get returned. If you do order from them - you better hope you get all your parts and that they function. If their track record with Jay and I is any indication - you will be out of luck getting replacement parts.
On the whole the design is very close to being a true bolt on. It such a darned shame these guys are so clueless on custome service - even at the most rudementary level (pun intended). With these guys in charge you'd be better off calling for Moe, Larry and Shemp (No Curly) and asking them to build you a spaceship. You'd be at least more likely to get them to return your call or email.
Unless you are a glutton for punishment - and don't mind a product that isn't exactly right - then grab the Bromo Seltzer and say bye-bye to your money. As far as I know - the 90's are a figment of their imaginations. Either that or they did not install my hinges correctly - either way it's bad. Save yourself the $100 and order the 70's. You can always delude yourself later by saying they are 90's if you squint and tilt your head about 20 degrees.
Buyer be VERY VERY aware and weary.
Not a happy camper.
[This message has been edited by DrCPU (edited 08-13-2007).]
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10:42 PM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
This sounds more fishy the longer it goes. Before I was reading this thread, thinking they can't be up to "no good" because they're not taking money and running... I really don't want to say all of what I am thinking now because it's not my business. I've just seen this story so many times in life...
The part I can't hold in: It really sounds to me that they had some extra parts and tried to see if they could make them fit on a Fiero. Think about it, if it works you can make easy money doing what basically amounts to a clearance sale on leftovers. If not, you simply exit stage left. It's really hard to believe they spent money developing parts and then just sit on them, when there are people practically begging for them! The design problems you guys indicate mean that some parts need to be redesigned and reproduced. That's simply not going to happen if the whole point was to get rid of some stuff that, for some reason, never moved off the shelf.
Just my two pence...
[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 08-14-2007).]
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11:54 PM
Aug 14th, 2007
drumwzrd Member
Posts: 236 From: San Mateo,Ca Registered: Aug 2006
Thanks for the report. I'm very sorry that this has not turned out well for both of you, especially you DrCPU as you paid them for the hinges and the install. It's very disappointing to read what you have to say as I was hoping that this would work out. I hope they grow some testicular fortitude and make things right for both of you. Thanks again, you are helping your fellow Fiero owner's at the very least, +'s given.
Nolan
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 08-14-2007).]
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12:36 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
Has anyone ever used their hinges? $399 - wonder if they're any good?
Jerry at XSCustoms informed that the kit isn't strong enough nor enough room to work using two struts for the Fiero donor and it isn't a bolt-on application, rather a weld on kit. Only one person has used this style of kit. I think the cost on Ebay was $600.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 08-14-2007).]
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02:43 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
I reread all of the various threads and behavior patterns from different sites; one thing seem to stick out like a sore thumb....Hit and run operations. Convince the next group of victims by producing one set. Once the group buy has been place and monies collected, disconnect all ties and move onto the next batch of victims. If this theory holds true, they will not be back.
I'm I wrong to come to this conclusion? The only difference I've notice is Dr.CPU and Eclipse are located in Canada whereas the other groups are located in the states-out of reach therefore posing as a unwelcomed avoidenc and had to produce the kits? Granted I could be wrong, but like I've said, most if not 98% of what happened here is a repeat of the same tactics on other threads?
Examples:
quote
Originally posted by MX3GUY:
Anyone have a way of contacting these folks? Please PM me if you do! Ive left several PM's and emails since tuesday and have no replies. A member of the mx3 board has filed a complaint with the Better business bureau and a few others are getting out of the group buy due to neglegence on Xtreme doors part. I cannot believe that a company trying to make an impression would do this...no phone numbers that works, no response to emails. 80 percent of the members have paid their complete dues for the hinges and less than three people have received their kits....that were paid a week or so into June.
Take your scams elsewhere. If I have to I'll follow and let the other forums know too.
Oh and Hopefully the pm's aren't about shipping a car to them. If I was a guessing man I'd say they promissed to send one side to someone for test fitting. What do I win???
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 08-14-2007).]
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03:56 AM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
After looking at Eclipses and Dr.CPU's on the weekend, I think I'll be holding on to my cash come october. Maybee get a weld-on set from e-bay or something.
Reading between the lines on these guys--I am not seeing maliciousness, just gross incompatence. I personally think they have the skills and knowledge to take VD hinges to 90%, but lack the skills, drive, resources or willpower to finish the job. They also realize the market on a single model of car is not big enough to sustain an operation, so are trying to get as many models going, as fast as possible.
I doubt they are deliberatley scamming in hit-and-run, Those type of operations don't bother trying to set up a storefront, they just run out of their garage or basement.
Its also a sad state of affairs in our world today across the board. Not just these guys, there are very few contractors left I trust. I either do the work myself or live without for the most part--that goes for all the cars as well as the house.
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07:18 AM
LeviM Member
Posts: 169 From: Liberty University Registered: Apr 2006
I guess it is a good thing that my brother broke my car when he did. I have the money now and I was always considering something like this. Now I get to keep a little extra cash for my first year in college.
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11:19 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Well...since the bolt on VDS idea is pretty much a pipe dream(for now anyway)... How much cash would I be looking at spending for a "QUALITY" Suicide Door conversion?
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11:49 PM
Aug 15th, 2007
DrCPU Member
Posts: 707 From: North Dumfries, On, Canada Registered: Jan 2004
It's very important to have this post end the way it does to serve as a WARNING TO ANY OTHERS. There is a newer thread going to pose general questions.
Dave
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07:15 AM
DrCPU Member
Posts: 707 From: North Dumfries, On, Canada Registered: Jan 2004
This thread should end with Jay's or my warning! Unless xtreme-doors lives up to it's obligations - which is not likely at all based on their posted track record.
quote
Originally posted by DrCPU:
This is my two cents.
Unlike Jay - I paid $600 for 90 degree hinges and paid them $300 to do the install. I sent the money by paypal and was able to make an appointment to get the work done. I left the car with them for a week and picked it up the next Sunday.
They neglected to tell me they just had a break-in. Had I known that I would have asked for money back and loaded the car on the trailer. I also left my trailer outside their shop for the week. I had asked them if it was safe and they said no problems or issues (the first of many lies). Two tires on the trailer were slashed during the week. Again, if they told me about their trouble I would have never left the trailer at their location.
When I picked up the car Chris and his brother said nothing about the fact they put on 70 degree doors instead of the 90's I'd ordered and paid money up front with. I compared my doors to Jay's last Saturday and they are exactly the same as his 70's. They also tried to hide the fact that when the doors opened they popped off the bumper guard trim just in front of the door. The doors closed well - but both doors were sticking out about 2.5mm at the front ( and have a corresponding gap in the door seal in that area). I pointed this out and they said they could fix it. I would come back in the next week or two for a final fitting. When I got home later that day I noticed my driver door lock would not function with the window up. I also had a full appreciation for how both of "the boys" hid their flaws of the install - not to mention the scratch they put in my clear - on the fender - on the driver side front fender. I had asked for an invoice and they promised to get me one. They also promised to get a spacer fabbed to replace the 8-10 washers used to space out the door stops.
I came back two weeks later and they fixed the driver door lock problem - and made a small adjustment for the driver side guide post. I asked again for the invoice and Chris promised the machined spacers would be available in a week - two at worse. It's been over a month and nada - zilch - nothing.
I spoke to them about how important it is to return calls and email. I also gave them contact info ofr Jay and the MX3 guy. I told them both really wanted to talk to them. Chris promised me he would get my invoice and gave me his home phone number. He also promised he'd return any calls I made in less than 24 hrs. I've made two such calls with no returns in a month. His girlfriend answers - and I know he's there because I can here him in the background. I was born during the day - just not yesterday.
As it stands, the struts are week. They need to be able to handle about 10lbs more weight. The fit isn't perfect (at the front) and if I adjust the door mount bolts to move the door in I only make the issue about the front of the door hitting the fender worse when opening the door. They need to modify their design a little - plain and simple.
So as it stands - They charged me $100 more than the 70's for the 70's and told me they were 90's. You - dear reader - figure it out. Call it theft, deceit or fraud - you pick it. They owe me for two slashed trailer tires ($180). They owe me an invoice. They owe me four spacers and replacement machined parts for the two lower door guides - with ball joint ends - not a screw head as is currently in the setup. You should know that your paypal payment gets redirected to another email address. I have the details and might supply this information to the Province and Feds to do some research on their not collecting Provincial and Federal taxes, or declaring income. Could be some interesting explaining for them to do with an audit through Revenue Canada. I have many goverment contacts - so it's only a call away.
One PFF member asked me to purchase a set for them - and even a call to them with another order does not get returned. If you do order from them - you better hope you get all your parts and that they function. If their track record with Jay and I is any indication - you will be out of luck getting replacement parts.
On the whole the design is very close to being a true bolt on. It such a darned shame these guys are so clueless on custome service - even at the most rudementary level (pun intended). With these guys in charge you'd be better off calling for Moe, Larry and Shemp (No Curly) and asking them to build you a spaceship. You'd be at least more likely to get them to return your call or email.
Unless you are a glutton for punishment - and don't mind a product that isn't exactly right - then grab the Bromo Seltzer and say bye-bye to your money. As far as I know - the 90's are a figment of their imaginations. Either that or they did not install my hinges correctly - either way it's bad. Save yourself the $100 and order the 70's. You can always delude yourself later by saying they are 90's if you squint and tilt your head about 20 degrees.
