quote Originally posted by maryjane:

PM sent :-)

Finally, I started a new page. WOO HOO...

[This message has been edited by aconesa (edited 11-12-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Nick, did you CHOOSE to believe that you were born male? Also, the word "parent" has multiple meanings. If it is not possible to be a parent to a child unless you produced that child through procreation then it is impossible for a sterile couple to be parents to their adopted children. If you say, "Wait, that's not what I meant, of course people who adopt children are parents" then you run into the logical fallacy of claiming that it's possible to only parent a child if there are two parents, one male and one female, and not possible if only one male or one female, or two male, or two female. At this point the spaghetti logic breaks down. What it fundamentally means is that religious people don't want gays raising children, and the only reason they don't want this is because the parents are gay. Not because they aren't capable of raising children, that's proven wrong already; not because the child will be harmed in any way, that's proven wrong also. No, simply because they're gay, and no other reason. And that goes against everything this country stands for. Everything. The Constitution doesn't excluded gays, though some would like it to. It doesn't exclude blacks, though some would like it to. It doesn't exclude females, though some would like it to. Excluding minorities is bigotry, pure and simple. Attempts to say otherwise only suffice to make it more clear. JazzMan

It seems that my definition of 'parent' is the predominant one, James:
A parent is a father or mother; one who sires or gives birth to and/or nurtures and raises an offspring. The different role of parents varies throughout the tree of life, and is especially complex in human culture.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent
One of the two persons from whom one is immediately biologically descended; a mother or father; A person who acts as a parent in rearing a child. ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parent

Of course, I am just quoting from the Internet, but it does strongly support my definition, as I have always undrstood it to be. Also the 'parents' of an adopted child would,correctly and in the eyes of the Law, and most peoples' interpretation, would be defined as 'Adoptive parents'. Just because we have become linguistically lazy, and drop 'unneccessary' pre-or suf-fixes., doesn't mean the new word means any less, or more, than the full version. The 'adoptive' bit has been conveniently dropped to seem to make an adoptive parent equal to a real parent. They might be able to from a caring point of view,but never replace or imitate the gene factor of the real parents.
No offence to Gypsies or Romanies, and just as a random example...but I feel people would not be happy that any child created by normal, or straight parents, might be adopted by somebody else whose lifestyle is not one that the original birth parents would choose to support, such as a gypsy , should the dilemma arise. I am 100% sure that their way of living would undoubtedly have an an impact upon how any child would turn out in the end. BUT...homosexual lifestyle supporters would deny this..or would they? I wonder if gypsies would be so vociferous as the homosexual community is, should they be threatened with not being allowed to adopt any child they would like to have as a child.
And I also wonder if they would get as much support from the 'general' public as the homosexual community enjoy currently. For some inexpicable reason, I doubt it.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: It seems that the Q word is ok for gays to use, but not ok for staights to use. I've also heard gays openly use the f word when speaking among themselves, and referring to themselves. You know the next question--don't you? "What is the politically correct noun for straight people to use at this juncture in time?" And, it seems you may have just verified the assertion that gays activly seek 'victims status'?

All people are different. Some may not be offended by the terms, others will be. I don't find them personally offensive, but I certainly respect the fact that others do.

Seriously, why do people always stereotype? One person is offended, so now the entire population is in 'victim status'? Please.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: All people are different. Some may not be offended by the terms, others will be. I don't find them personally offensive, but I certainly respect the fact that others do. Seriously, why do people always stereotype? One person is offended, so now the entire population is in 'victim status'? Please.

Really? It would appear you are already claiming "victiim" status.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: It would be nice, however, to be respected as a normal human being when I am out in public.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Makes for an uncomfortable feeling. But I am determined to show the world that I'm normal and they're not going to bring me down.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: I'm talking about going out on the street. Having people stare at you in disgust when you are out in public with your partner. Whispering behind your back. Sometimes not even behind your back. Discrimination is everywhere. Some people, like me, are willing to live with it because we fight for what we think is right. Other people aren't willing to live with it, so they stay in the closet. My wife and I worked at the same place last summer. They don't discriminate against gays, of course they're not allowed to. But when we were both at work, we weren't allowed to be in eachothers departments, help eachother with anything work related....we weren't even allowed to be anywhere near eachother whatsoever when we were there. Yet there are other married/dating couples that are straight that aren't given those same rules. Once she stopped working there, the problems completely stopped. The discrimination is still there. Legal or not, it's there.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: As I said in my post, no other couples in the store were treated the same as we were. The only thing that separated us was that we were gay.

Not meant to offend you but, you are not being consistent IMO.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-12-2008).]

I don't see how I'm being inconsistent. And I'm certainly not claiming victim status, or anything else for that matter. If you want to clarify on what you're talking about, please take it to a PM and we can chat there.

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: If you want to clarify on what you're talking about, please take it to a PM and we can chat there.

Why?

WOW I finally just finished reading this post and I am actually shocked by what I have read. To be honest I agree with both sides on this matter to some extent.

Do I feel that homosexuals should be able to adopt, Yes, and No. To me it depends on how stable the family is, not whether they are straight or gay. If they are able to provide for a child and support, and love the child, then both straight and gay should be able to adopt. Now if the family is struggling, and not able to provide for the child, then neither should be able to adopt.

Now personally I am not ready to have kids, as I still have things in life that I would like to achieve and to me a child would get in the way of my short term goals. Now this is not to say that I don't ever want to have kids, but at this very moment in my life I do not. I am only 26 and have some goals I would like to accomplish first before devoting my love to a child.

Now from what I have been reading, it looks like that most here do not want me to have kids because I am gay. I am actually shocked by that fact. I have been in a very strong and steady partnership for almost 5 years now. We would both love to one day adopt a child, but we want to make sure we are able to provide for that child. We want to be able to give a child a loving, stable, secure home.

I do feel that I was born gay and not taught or raised to be gay. I grew up with a near perfect childhood, with both a mother and father that supported, and loved me. If I could tomorrow wake up and feel the same passion and love that I do towards my partner to a women I would, but I can't. I just don't see woman in that way, as I do a man. When I look at a man and a woman, I am drawn to the man first. I do feel that women are beautiful, but I don't have a lust of drive to be with one. This is something I can't help. I was never taught to look at a man, I am just more drawn to them. In middle and high school taking sex ed classes I never liked watching the videos of woman parts, but when it came time for the male section I was fine. Growing up was odd for me as most teenagers act odd around the opposite sex, but get along great with the same sex. For me it was different. I actually had that awkwardness around males, but with females they were like friends.

My parents would let me go out on dates with females, but it never felt like a date, more like I was going to a friends house. I can tell you when I finally told them they were in complete shock, and at first did not believe me. Nearly anyone that meets me has no idea that I am gay until they ask if I am married because of the ring I wear. I then tell them about my wonder partner and most just shrug thier shoulders and move on.

I think for everyone on here that has kids and say that gays should not be able to adopt a child needs to sit back and think about this for a second. What happens if the child you love and sacrificed everything for, one day comes to you and says that they are gay? Are you going to not give them the same rights as your other children? Would really not want them to have the same benefits as your other children?

My parents were never accepting of gay people until they had me Now I in no way force them to love and support me, but they are great parents and they will love and support me in all of my decisions. They are accepting of my partner and the life we have built so far with one another. I hope to one day return the same morals and up bringing to my "adopted" child that my parents have distilled in me.

Hopefully I explained myself well enough and don't start to get a ratings bar because of this. If so, then I guess this forum is not as upstanding as I once thought it was, and that's just a shame.


Ken~

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: I don't see how I'm being inconsistent. And I'm certainly not claiming victim status, or anything else for that matter. If you want to clarify on what you're talking about, please take it to a PM and we can chat there.

Not really interested in PM discussions, if you don't see the inconsistency, OK. A PM discussion won't change what you have posted. As I said, it's just my opinion.

Ron

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It's sad to think that people actually consider adoptive parents to be second-class parents, never capable of being truly equal to biological parents no matter their efforts and qualities as people, as parents. Under that definition, the lowest skankiest crack whore would still be a better "real" parent than the best, most loving parents of an adopted child. In my opinion, the mechanics of genetics are the least meaningful and most patently useless barometer of parenting quality there are. To me, how qualified and capable a person or couple is to parent a child has nothing whatsever to do with genetics. Maybe I'm alone in this, maybe not, but I stand by what I believe. JazzMan

sad, yes - but true. reproduction is the THE most basic instinct.
but, people being variable, it is VERY possible for an adoptive parent to be a WAAAYY better parent than a natural one.
and, of course, adolescent rebellion is a fun time. the infamous "your not my dad!"
little things like "he's got your eyes" - "she gets that from yourside of the family". There is a ingrained natural pride in what/who you have made. "That's my boy!"

and, next - there is those "parents" who adopt for their own selfish reasons "to feel complete", and end up regretting it once the baby is a child. much like everyone loves puppies & kttens, but dont like dogs or cats.

the possibilities are endless - but noone should be denied the opportunity.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It's sad to think that people actually consider adoptive parents to be second-class parents, never capable of being truly equal to biological parents no matter their efforts and qualities as people, as parents. Under that definition, the lowest skankiest crack whore would still be a better "real" parent than the best, most loving parents of an adopted child. In my opinion, the mechanics of genetics are the least meaningful and most patently useless barometer of parenting quality there are. To me, how qualified and capable a person or couple is to parent a child has nothing whatsever to do with genetics. Maybe I'm alone in this, maybe not, but I stand by what I believe. JazzMan

And I credit you for standing by your beliefs, James. Am I not allowed to too? My belief is very simple, and inalienable, IMHO. Should Nature have wanted us to be able to practice homosexuality, AND be able to procreate from that relationship, she would have made us into hermaphrodites. Nobody can deny she has the capability, because there are creatures that enjoy that state.So, why didn't she? Because it wasn't neccessary. I don't apply ANY attention to what the Bible says with regard to this situation. Look around at the evidence that is in abundance. EVERY form of life is balanced. It requires two different sexes to procreate, in the majority of Creation, maybe all of it. Why? because that is the way everything was created. It should, in MHO, remain so. And if it takes 2 to procreate, it follows that it needs two to rear successfully. A Male and a Female. And when personal, selfish desires of two people living in an un-natural partnership,override the consideration and requirements of a helpless, inexperience child, then I will protest, on their behalf.
Nick

quote Originally posted by MooCow: WOW I finally just finished reading this post and I am actually shocked by what I have read. To be honest I agree with both sides on this matter to some extent. ... Hopefully I explained myself well enough and don't start to get a ratings bar because of this. If so, then I guess this forum is not as upstanding as I once thought it was, and that's just a shame. Ken~

I think you explained your self very well. I have a questino about this:
" I never liked watching the videos of woman parts, but when it came time for the male section I was fine." What do you mean by, "liked"?

Also when you say that your "parents support you in every decision you make"...I think parents should be concerned about decisions if they question them based on theor experiences, and ask their son or daughter about it. Not just be Yes parents. Did I understand you wrong?

Nick, according to your Wiki definiton of a parent, couples that haven't birth a child cannot be called parents. What about those couples who adopt a child and raise it as their own, are they not parents? One doesn't even have to birth a child or even contribute to it's birth, to be considered a parent. One doesn't even have to have sex to be a parent, ever hear of surrogate mothers? They had a baby from a donated egg and sperm and gave the baby to the new "parents" who paid them for this service. I guess we will be arguing about the word "parent" now, based on religious beliefs instead of society ones.

No dude, no prob for me anyway, if you raised it you parented it, but you didn't birth it. If you helped alot I would even say you could say you helped in parenting the child.

Like I said before mentoring is good too. You are kind of like a serrogate parent helping the kid know how to live.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Nick, according to your Wiki definiton of a parent, couples that haven't birth a child cannot be called parents. What about those couples who adopt a child and raise it as their own, are they not parents? One doesn't even have to birth a child or even contribute to it's birth, to be considered a parent. One doesn't even have to have sex to be a parent, ever hear of surrogate mothers? They had a baby from a donated egg and sperm and gave the baby to the new "parents" who paid them for this service. I guess we will be arguing about the word "parent" now, based on religious beliefs instead of society ones.

No John. Everybody conveniently drops the 'adoptive' that SHOULD come before 'parents'..I notice you didn't drop 'surrogate' from in front of 'mother'. And no, they are not parents..they are ADOPTIVE parents. Just convenient to drop the word that qualifies them as being OTHER than real parents, to bolster their status..And they aren't!! They are not real parents!! Not that I am saying they don't do a great job usually. But there are too many things going on at the hands of humans that just aren't acceptable IMHO. It's not as if there is a dire shortage of human beings!! We are expanding FAR too widely, and rapidly...Just because of extended longevity, the world population has doubled just because people are living longer than nature intended, upsetting the balance .Population expansion is uncontrolled, because nature's natural control facilities have been circumvented. we are being encouraged, and aided and abetted to have more and more children for purely fiscal, and commercial reasons. We are heading an an ever-increasing rate towards an unsustainable population level, which will lead to far more pain and heartache for the World, than that experienced by people who can't have children. Normal procreation is not a Right..it is supposed to be a natural event..and Nature decides who can and who can't. Or used to. Natural selection of survival of the fittest, which used to keep breeds strong and healthy, has been blocked. That is why we will die out one day, and the things that can't or don't affect the natural balance of nature and their survival will still be around long after we, as a Human race, have died off. Unless we take them with is too, with some kind of Global catastrophe.

quote I think you explained your self very well. I have a questino about this: " I never liked watching the videos of woman parts, but when it came time for the male section I was fine." What do you mean by, "liked"?

Meaning that I never really felt comfortable watching. I felt out of place. Part of it was because everyone in the room was their watching. I know its part of growing up and knowing what all the parts on the human body do. I know what everything is for and know that being gay is un-natural, but I can't help the way I feel towards the same sex.

quote Also when you say that your "parents support you in every decision you make"...I think parents should be concerned about decisions if they question them based on theor experiences, and ask their son or daughter about it. Not just be Yes parents. Did I understand you wrong?

My parents had tons of questions when they learned I was gay. We had long talks about it as they thought I was just going through a phase since I never acted like most gay men. They finally came to realize who I was and that there was no changing the fact of who I am. Trust me they did not just let me do whatever I wanted to and they never would just give me something, I would always have to earn it, or prove I was mature enough to handle it.

Ken~

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by MooCow: Meaning that I never really felt comfortable watching. I felt out of place. Part of it was because everyone in the room was their watching. I know its part of growing up and knowing what all the parts on the human body do. Ken~

I was thinking it made you uncomfortable seeing it. Maybe it was more uncomfortable just feeling different from the other kids, maybe assuming everyone else was straight?

Sorry I didn't mean to pry to much.

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I think a lot of people confuse "make a baby" with "be a parent". Make a baby is incredibly simple to do mechanically and only takes a small amount of time. Parenting a child is an entirely different and far more complex process that takes decades. In my opinion, the only relationship between the two is that one offers the opportunity for the other to occur. It is by no means the only way that parenting can begin, it just happens to be the most common. Adoption is the other most often used means to start parenting. The ability to make a baby isn't the main, or even a significant, factor in being a parent, and never will be. Look at underage females that make babies, how qualified are they to be parents? Not even. It is not possible to win an argument with someone who can't separate the two, baby making and parenting, because they don't understand that there's a difference between the two. JazzMan

I agree with you there

I hope frontal Lobe doesn't mind me quoting a comment he made in another thread, but the point he makes in it is extremely relevant to MY perception of 'Parenthood'.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/060630.html#p19
take a look
Nick
QUOTE/
".......the INTENT to be an offspring of this host with a unique relationship between them./QUOTE

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 11-12-2008).]

There is more than one definition of the word parents.
Here are a few Nick, pay special attention to the gov definitions and don't be so narrow minded.

quote Definitions of Parents on the Web: A parent is a father or mother; one who sires or gives birth to and/or nurtures and raises an offspring. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parents Plural of parent; one's father and mother en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parents The next level of classes above a specific class in the inheritance hierarchy. Those from which a class directly inherits. www.xemacs.org/Documentatio...ml/oo-browser_9.html refers to the adult or adults repsponsible for the infant or child www.mchoralhealth.org/OpenWide/glossary.htm Persons, father or mother, who has legal custody of one or more children. www.afe.gouv.qc.ca/en/lexique/index.asp The term "parent" refers to a natural parent, step-parent, common-law parent, or adoptive parent. ... www.gov.mb.ca/educate/sfa/pages/terms_def.html Description: Parents are organisms from which an organism with novel trait(s) is derived. Source: UNEP International Technical Guidelines for Safety in Biotechnology ec.europa.eu/research/biosociety/library/glossarylist_en.cfm Refers to a student’s parent(s), guardian(s), caregiver(s), or other entity legally entrusted with the custodial responsibility for the well being of the student. esb.ode.state.oh.us/Word/GLOSSARY%20FOR%20DRAFT%20STANDARDS_10_18_05_FINAL.doc For purposes of student eligibility restrictions, and consistent with long-standing HUD policy regarding eligibility for the HCV program, means the biological or adoptive parents, or guardians (eg grandparents, aunt/uncle, godparents, etc). www.mich.gov/documents/mshd...pt_2006_181301_7.htm The entities that contain one or more dependent entities that report directly to them. Because parents are both entities and associated with at least one node, they have entity, node, and parent information associated with them. ]www.essbase.de/glossary/glossary_p.cfm

World population used to be controlled by wars, plagues, famime, and even religion to some extent. Most of those are controlled by man now. Don't worry about over population, we will starve to death before that happens, as our food production has not kept up with the population growth.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 11-13-2008).]

Ok here is one for those who claim you are born gay.
Pedophiles also say they are born that way.
So gays wanting the same right as hetrosexual couples when it comes to adoption are then opening the door for the next stage. The right for a pedophile to adopt.

Because if you are both born that way doesn't that mean you both have that right? No, I think not.

quote Originally posted by aconesa: Please do not use the F word. I find it very offensive.

Its called freedom of speech, I am offended that You askinig for one right would step on someone elses right to free speech.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Cliffff!!!! I think I broke it.

Not the 1st time for you either.

Actually, I don't think you broke it--it has just been beaten to death.
(in reality, it may be Avengador1's lengthy quote that did it) It will probably fix itself if f he deletes it all and inserts just a single .

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-13-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Why?

Because I'm not going to get into a personal debate on here.

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-13-2008).]

Please don't use your Red Sox avatar. As a life long Yankees Fan, I am offended by it.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Please don't use your Red Sox avatar. As a life long Yankees Fan, I am offended by it.

Ugh, please don't use the Y word. If anything is offensive, THAT is.

note: not being condescending at all to anyone. the Y word really IS offensive in this household

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-13-2008).]

New Bedford MA? You are a Yankee.

quote Originally posted by 88_Fiero_2M4: Frankly yes I think that only people who have there own kids should be alloud to adopt. Sorry for those who cant have there own kids nature has decided other wise. I think that only experianced parents should be alloud to adopt.

...

Good lord, this has got to be one of, if not THE stupidest post I’ve ever read anywhere.

88_Fiero_2M4, why draw the line there? Perhaps only “experienced parents” should be allowed to reproduce?

Have you thought your comments out at all?

Honestly, the stuff that some people come out with...

quote Originally posted by Patrick: ... Good lord, this has got to be one of, if not THE stupidest post I’ve ever read anywhere. 88_Fiero_2M4, why draw the line there? Perhaps only “experienced parents” should be allowed to reproduce? Have you thought your comments out at all? Honestly, the stuff that some people come out with...

Well you only see it that way because you were raised by your own family. I was not. I speak from experience from the child's perspective. If ones parents cant raise them then one either they should have an abortion which I would rather my
mother would have done. Or the child should be given to a family that has proven that they are responsible enough to raise them.
Your comments are the ones that are ignorant as you have no expirance of what its like to be raised by someone else other then your own. I have not only been there but have several others in my own family that I know what they went thru after being adopted.

FYI
Patrick was adopted by toads when he was 21.

Dag nab it, the thread was almost off the 1st page too!

Fixed it.
Aus, pedophiles would never be allowed to adopt children, as they are considered child abusers. The childrens rights to not be abused would prevent this, so don't fear this happening.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 11-13-2008).]

Told ya!!

I am not asking you to stop your comments. Everyone on this forum has the right to discuss an option, even though it might not be agreed to by the majority. My request was to not use derogatory terms. Everyone deserves a certain level of respect. I am assuming that we are all mature adults here that can debate without insults. You could have made your statement very clear and to the point without the use of the word, IMHO.

quote Originally posted by 88_Fiero_2M4: Its called freedom of speech, I am offended that You askinig for one right would step on someone elses right to free speech.