What else have you got? Your concience alone isn't enough. Of course god did not hand down a stack of papers in his own handwriting to someone. These are words inspired by god, and words written about him as well as Jesus times on earth..
'Inspired by' and 'written by' are two very different things. Plenty of movies are inspired by real events, but that doesn't keep Hollywood from twisting it to make it a more interesting story, now does it?
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11:33 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Topic: Should Homosexual Couples be allowed to adopt/raise families?
which is why I respond with my sillyness to the sillyness presented. The endless condemnation of the gays, instead of actual reasons why they shouldnt adopt/raise children. because there is none. all men and all women have faults. I do not hump my wife in front of my daughter. I would hope "the gays" would have the same respect. yes, I would not want people who have sex - OF ANY KIND - in front of their children to adopt & raise kids. I dont even think people who drink or do drugs in front of kids to to raise kids. Or violence. wife/husband beating. they also should not be raising kids.
but gays? as far as I know - kids should not even think about their parents having sex. one way or another. as far as I know - it disgusts them in all orientations.
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11:33 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by 2.5: I stated reasons that were not biblical, and they got ignored.
Who's answer are you looking for now? You got mine.
sorry - must have missed them in all the hoopla. ah - looking back - your first post, in fact. and a very valid point - but it does imply that there is something wrong with being gay. Which I fully understand. I myself dont like flambouyant feminine gay men or diesel dykes. I dont mind the lipstick lesbians tho....hmmm, funny how that happens....
we are all allowed to like & dislike who ever for any reasons. the trick is to get past that, and see what is truly fair.
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12:36 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
Good point Pyrthian. The goal of the gay community is not necessarily acceptance, but it's tolerance and respect.
I don't care if you accept my lifestyle choice or not. If you don't, you're entitled to that. And I respect that. It would be nice, however, to be respected as a normal human being when I am out in public.
It's not just gays that get this treatment, either. It's pretty much anyone that doesn't fit the idea of the social norm.
[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-11-2008).]
Originally posted by Pyrthian: We are all allowed to like & dislike who ever for any reasons. the trick is to get past that, and see what is truly fair.
I need to raise something from possible archiving... BRB.
we are all allowed to like & dislike who ever for any reasons. the trick is to get past that, and see what is truly fair.
Since it was drawn attention to, I do not dislike homosexuals. I would dislike the outcome of homosexuals adopting kids. I'm sure it will happen anyway. But there is nothing worng with me thinking that a one sex parented kid will have a harder time at some point in their life, probably after going out on their own.
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01:42 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Good point Pyrthian. The goal of the gay community is not necessarily acceptance, but it's tolerance and respect.
I don't care if you accept my lifestyle choice or not. If you don't, you're entitled to that. And I respect that. It would be nice, however, to be respected as a normal human being when I am out in public.
It's not just gays that get this treatment, either. It's pretty much anyone that doesn't fit the idea of the social norm.
Interesting post, seeking tolerance is one thing, demanding it will never succeed and, you must earn respect though actions, deeds and words. Demanding respect just doesn't cut the mustard.
Per Webster's definition:
1nor·mal Pronunciation: \ˈnȯr-məl\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin normalis, from norma Date: circa 1696 1: perpendicular ; especially : perpendicular to a tangent at a point of tangency 2 a: according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern 3: occurring naturally <normal immunity> 4 a: of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b: free from mental disorder : sane 5 aof a solution : having a concentration of one gram equivalent of solute per liter b: containing neither basic hydroxyl nor acid hydrogen <normal silver phosphate> c: not associated <normal molecules> d: having a straight-chain structure <normal butyl alcohol> 6of a subgroup : having the property that every coset produced by operating on the left by a given element is equal to the coset produced by operating on the right by the same element 7: relating to, involving, or being a normal curve or normal distribution <normal approximation to the binomial distribution> 8of a matrix : having the property of commutativity under multiplication by the transpose of the matrix each of whose elements is a conjugate complex number with respect to the corresponding element of the given matrix
My guess would be that the closest definition to the one you are seeking would be # 2. # 7, being of the normal curve, I'd venture a guess that the gay and lesbian ranks would have to grow by a significant margin to qualify as part of the normal distribution. Yet, the definition specifically illistrates that your chosen lifestyle would not be the norm and by your own admission you are not the norm but seek acceptance as the norm. A very interesting argument. Doesn't work in my logic but have fun with it.
Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-11-2008).]
You are now officially the most arrogant chauvinist on this board.
Congratulations.
Thank you I still think that being gay is worng. Can you explain where physicly its is right, Never has a gay ever proved where being that way is right. Once a gay couple has a Child by thenselves with out help from science or the donations from others then you will never proove you rpoint with me, Nature says that only the Seed from a man combined with the egg from a woman will produce a child. This can not be disputed. I could care less if you are gay. That confusion is yours alone. You will never feel the joy of having a child of your own. Its sad but I still dont think that you all should be able to adopt. Only those who are married and not confused as to there orintation should be alloud to have children
[This message has been edited by 88_Fiero_2M4 (edited 11-11-2008).]
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01:45 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
I'd venture a guess that the gay and lesbian ranks would have to grow by a significant margin to qualify as part of the normal distribution. Yet, the definition specifically illistrates that your chosen lifestyle would not be the norm and by your own admission you are not the norm but seek acceptance as the norm.
There are actually FAR more gays and lesbians than most people think. Many of them are not comfortable coming out, because they see how society would treat them. I can't say I blame them. I know a few personally. I, myself, refuse to live in a closet. If I want to go out with my wife and hold hands, kiss, whatever, I have the right to do that. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to look. That's my personal opinion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not 100% comfortable doing it, but that's not because of any issue that I have personally. That's because I can pretty much feel stares and dirty looks. Makes for an uncomfortable feeling. But I am determined to show the world that I'm normal and they're not going to bring me down.
As for me admitting that I'm not the norm.....I didn't exactly say that. What I said was that most people don't see me as the norm. I think I am perfectly normal. I have an apartment, I pay my bills (when I have the money to do so), I have a job, I watch TV, I have a kitty who loves both her mommas......same as normal people. What defines normal? I refuse to let society say whether I am normal or not, based simply on my sexual orientation.
I could've stayed in the relationship I had with a guy and been considered normal. But I decided that I actually wanted, and deserved, to be happy. To me, wanting to be happy IS normal. Staying in a relationship just because it's what others think I should do is NOT.
[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-11-2008).]
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01:54 PM
aconesa Member
Posts: 374 From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA Registered: Jun 2005
Thank you I still think that being gay is worng. Can you explain where physicly its is right, Never has a gay ever proved where being that way is right. Once a gay couple has a Child by thenselves with out help from science or the donations from others then you will never proove you rpoint with me, Nature says that only the Seed from a man combined with the egg from a woman will produce a child. This can not be disputed. I could care less if you are gay. That confusion is yours alone. You will never feel the joy of having a child of your own. Its sad but I still dont think that you all should be able to adopt. Only those who are married and not confused as to there orintation should be alloud to have children
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01:59 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
Thank you I still think that being gay is worng. Can you explain where physicly its is right, Never has a gay ever proved where being that way is right. Once a gay couple has a Child by thenselves with out help from science or the donations from others then you will never proove you rpoint with me, Nature says that only the Seed from a man combined with the egg from a woman will produce a child. This can not be disputed. I could care less if you are gay. That confusion is yours alone. You will never feel the joy of having a child of your own. Its sad but I still dont think that you all should be able to adopt. Only those who are married and not confused as to there orintation should be alloud to have children
I have nothing to prove to you. If I thought you were actually willing to have a real, civilized debate I would possibly make an effort. But I have better things to do with my time. Thanks for the offer, though.
On to your other points....
Not that it's anyones business, but I'd never be able to have the joy of having a child of my own anyway. I can't have kids. My only option would be to adopt.
Confused is what I was when I was in relationships with men. I was confused because something never felt right, or natural, to me. Now, I am anything but confused.
On your final point there.....I AM married and I am NOT confused as to my orientation......so according to you I AM allowed to adopt.
You sure YOU'RE not the one confused here?
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02:00 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 32990 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Jaygee79: What defines normal? I refuse to let society say whether I am normal or not, based simply on my sexual orientation.
I just gave you the definition, you don't apparently agree but it is what it is. You and your relationship do not fall within the confines of what's defined as normal. The definition and or numbers will have to shift dramatically for that goal to be achieved. Like it or not, it's the way it is.
Ron
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02:01 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
I just gave you the definition, you don't apparently agree but it is what it is. You and your relationship do not fall within the confines of what's defined as normal. The definition and or numbers will have to shift dramatically for that goal to be achieved. Like it or not, it's the way it is.
I have nothing to prove to you. If I thought you were actually willing to have a real, civilized debate I would possibly make an effort. But I have better things to do with my time. Thanks for the offer, though.
On to your other points....
Not that it's anyones business, but I'd never be able to have the joy of having a child of my own anyway. I can't have kids. My only option would be to adopt.
Confused is what I was when I was in relationships with men. I was confused because something never felt right, or natural, to me. Now, I am anything but confused.
On your final point there.....I AM married and I am NOT confused as to my orientation......so according to you I AM allowed to adopt.
You sure YOU'RE not the one confused here?
From the sounds of what you say I think you are better off being gay anway. You have what you deserve and I am happy for you, If he shoe fits wear it. I say again only by the seed of a man and the egg of a woman can people reproduce, It would seem that marrige would be a no brainer. It would seem that you are the one who is confused and added ignorant as well
If it is I that is Confused that I would rather be confused just as long as I am still right
[This message has been edited by 88_Fiero_2M4 (edited 11-11-2008).]
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02:15 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 88_Fiero_2M4: From the sounds of what you say I think you are better off being gay anway. You have what you deserve and I am happy for you, If he shoe fits wear it. I say again only by the seed of a man and the egg of a woman can people reproduce, It would seem that marrige would be a no brainer. It would seem that you are the one who is confused and added ignorant as well
If it is I that is Confused that I would rather be confused just as long as I am still right
this is the adoption/raising children thread - not the marriage thread. yes, we all get the biology. so, are "barren" women not allowed to marry? and men who shoot blanks? oops - wrong thread
this is the adoption/raising children thread - not the marriage thread. yes, we all get the biology. so, are "barren" women not allowed to marry? and men who shoot blanks? oops - wrong thread
No its just I think that only those who are married should be able to adopt. But I dont think that Homosexuals should be able to, Frankly yes I think that only people who have there own kids should be alloud to adopt. Sorry for those who cant have there own kids nature has decided other wise. I think that only experianced parents should be alloud to adopt.
[This message has been edited by 88_Fiero_2M4 (edited 11-11-2008).]
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02:40 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
I cannot beleive what I am reading. At least with an adoption process that are applications and home visits. In addition to financial investigations. It is clear in this country that if you are not qualified, you will not be allowed to adopt a needy child. But on the other hand, there are many unqualified married couples that just keep having more children and have not means of supporting their family financial and other ways.
quote
Originally posted by 88_Fiero_2M4:
No its just I think that only those who are married should be able to adopt. But I dont think that Homosexuals should be able to, Frankly yes I think that only people who have there own kids should be alloud to adopt. Sorry for those who cant have there own kids nature has decided other wise. I think that only experianced parents should be alloud to adopt.
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02:47 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 88_Fiero_2M4: No its just I think that only those who are married should be able to adopt. But I dont think that Homosexuals should be able to, Frankly yes I think that only people who have there own kids should be alloud to adopt. Sorry for those who cant have there own kids nature has decided other wise. I think that only experianced parents should be alloud to adopt.
well, that is solid. a bit harsh, but solid.
I really dont like the idea of adults adopting kids as if they are aquiring a new pet, so the can "feel complete". I find that to be a endlessly selfish.
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02:47 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
There are actually FAR more gays and lesbians than most people think. Many of them are not comfortable coming out, because they see how society would treat them.
Diversity initiatives are getting them hired because they are different, there gay channels on tv. Is that just hollywood's influence?
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02:49 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by aconesa: I cannot beleive what I am reading. At least with an adoption process that are applications and home visits. In addition to financial investigations. It is clear in this country that if you are not qualified, you will not be allowed to adopt a needy child. But on the other hand, there are many unqualified married couples that just keep having more children and have not means of supporting their family financial and other ways.
while this is very true - it is a whole different issue. I have often thought a fine approach would be to sterilize everyone, and make the reversal be a series of tests, both physical & mental, and cost quite a bit. obviously outragous.
and - for the fun side - watch the movie "Idiocracy"
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02:53 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
Diversity initiatives are getting them hired because they are different, there gay channels on tv. Is that just hollywood's influence?
I'm talking about going out on the street. Having people stare at you in disgust when you are out in public with your partner. Whispering behind your back. Sometimes not even behind your back. Discrimination is everywhere. Some people, like me, are willing to live with it because we fight for what we think is right. Other people aren't willing to live with it, so they stay in the closet.
My wife and I worked at the same place last summer. They don't discriminate against gays, of course they're not allowed to. But when we were both at work, we weren't allowed to be in eachothers departments, help eachother with anything work related....we weren't even allowed to be anywhere near eachother whatsoever when we were there. Yet there are other married/dating couples that are straight that aren't given those same rules. Once she stopped working there, the problems completely stopped.
The discrimination is still there. Legal or not, it's there.
I'm talking about going out on the street. Having people stare at you in disgust when you are out in public with your partner. Whispering behind your back. Sometimes not even behind your back. Discrimination is everywhere. Some people, like me, are willing to live with it because we fight for what we think is right. Other people aren't willing to live with it, so they stay in the closet.
My wife and I worked at the same place last summer. They don't discriminate against gays, of course they're not allowed to. But when we were both at work, we weren't allowed to be in eachothers departments, help eachother with anything work related....we weren't even allowed to be anywhere near eachother whatsoever when we were there. Yet there are other married/dating couples that are straight that aren't given those same rules. Once she stopped working there, the problems completely stopped.
The discrimination is still there. Legal or not, it's there.
From what I have seen that is the same for any people involved with eachother. It is first not encouraged if they work together. Its just distracting and if manager / subordinate it acn lead to partiality. I guess I wouldn't count that as descrimination.
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03:39 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Yeah, I think it's funny as well. An unmarried crack whore is more qualified to raise a child than a stable, monogamous married gay couple, simply by virtue of physical biology?
JazzMan
I sure hope not. I think that would be voted not quite a good environment.
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03:41 PM
Jaygee79 Member
Posts: 4259 From: Dartmouth, MA Registered: Mar 2000
From what I have seen that is the same for any people involved with eachother. It is first not encouraged if they work together. Its just distracting and if manager / subordinate it acn lead to partiality. I guess I wouldn't count that as descrimination.
As I said in my post, no other couples in the store were treated the same as we were. The only thing that separated us was that we were gay.
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03:44 PM
PFF
System Bot
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Sexual relationships aren't only for reproduction, if one doesn't know that, then their marriage will be in a sad shape.
I know what you are trying to say but I disagree with it. Animals do not carry on lifelong gay relationships, it would appear they do it because it feels good at the time. Alot of animals have a will too, they are not just instinct.
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03:46 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 2.5: I know what you are trying to say but I disagree with it. Animals do not carry on lifelong gay relationships, it would appear they do it because it feels good at the time. Alot of animals have a will too, they are not just instinct.
it was only to show that it is not unnatural. many animals can lick their own junk too....
and, most animals dont actually get pleasure from sex.
and - back to topic - many animals will adopt animals from other species as well. the female instinct to raise a child is universal. as is the male instinct to destroy the children of other males. well...not entirely true....fish will eat their own babies.....but, fish cant be gay either.....
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03:55 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
As I said in my post, no other couples in the store were treated the same as we were. The only thing that separated us was that we were gay.
DOH! I missed that, that is messed up. Unless you two were making out somewhere on company property giving them a reason to seperate you it is uncalled for.
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04:07 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - back to topic - many animals will adopt animals from other species as well. the female instinct to raise a child is universal. as is the male instinct to destroy the children of other males. well...not entirely true....fish will eat their own babies.....but, fish cant be gay either.....
Hmm.. yes on topic.
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04:08 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
If that's your argument, then read the part of the Bible that says we are all born in sin. By your logic, that means no one should be allowed to have children. Yet the Bible commands you to go forth and multiply.
There are many things in the Bible which appear contradictory. When you take select passages out of context, you can make them appear to mean almost anything.
Sin is wrong, but we are ALL sinners. (as you said) If we're all sinners, then who should be allowed to raise children?
Homosexuality is wrong, according to the Bible. So are multitudes of other things that parents do every day - according to the Bible.
Jesus taught love above all else.
The question isn't whether people are sinners or not - everyone sins at one point (or more) in their life. The idea is that we are to strive to be better and sin less. So if we assume that we are speaking about an entire lifetime of living in sin (living with another homosexual and adopting an innocent child), then it is impossible to strive to be better because your entire life is that of sin. (I'm currently only speaking your reference to the Bible - my personal views aside).
The bible is not contradictory at all, it's actually very consistent and direct. Anyone who wishes to discredit any peace of 'literature' (if we can use this term for the Bible) will always twist passages and interpret them to be contradictory.
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05:58 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Sir, here you are dead wrong. Most of the gay men that I have met in my 42 years, are well educated, and good citizens.
Yes, and many of them have been sexually abused as children.
Everyone who thinks that every gay person is born this way and there is no way to change it should consciously do some research and you will find to the contrary. There is plenty of evidence out there that there are many causes for one to become homosexual, none the least of which is abuse but choice is also there. If there is predisposition for a child to lean both ways, it is the nurture that will determine which way they will end up. Read about it, check it out, then talk - the proof is out there but it is being suppressed.
Somebody mentioned Hollywood and how they have destroyed the sanctity of marriage. They have done the same to promote the alternate lifestyle. Like it or not, it IS a self-destructive lifestyle. Self-destructive meaning that if we were using absolutes, eventually everyone would be gay and the population would die off. AGAIN, before you jump on me, IN THEORY if this was a NORMAL life style, it COULD, POTENTIALLY lead to the self destruction of societies. The lifestyle is counter to people's natural propensity for self-preservation.
Someone else asked the question that if a straight couple wants to raise their child to be straight, would a gay couple want to raise a gay child? I don't know, but it certainly kills procreation if we take that route, doesn't it? For the freaks that argue that the earth is over-populated, Canada, EU and a few other places in the world have a negative birth rate.
Lastly, to answer the original question, no, they should NOT be able to adopt. Every child needs a father and a mother to become a well rounded individual. Before you try to dispute this, there is plenty of scientific proof of that too. Two mothers isn't going to cut it and neither is two fathers. A single parent is certainly disadvantaged because even with the best intentions they will never be able to be both, a mother and a father but unfortunately this has become the acceptable way of raising children in our society (we go back to divorce, etc.) (with exceptions where a parent dies or some other special circumstances and not taking away anything from the single parents on here that are in those circumstances). Our society's children have plenty of problems with abuse, divorce, poverty, etc. and to throw another curve at them in the form of gay parents is doing those kids a massive disservice.
Changing the topic ever so slightly and throwing a question out there: Does anyone believe that (other than choice) homosexuality can be a type of disability? A disability that has been deemed acceptable?
Nip it in the what? Oh, NM--thought you said something else Bill.
Question all: Do adopting gay/lesbian couples raise the adoptee to accept that lifestyle---or do they raise them to follow exactly what is written in the bible?
Nip it in the what? Oh, NM--thought you said something else Bill.
Question all: Do adopting gay/lesbian couples raise the adoptee to accept that lifestyle---or do they raise them to follow exactly what is written in the bible?
I seem to think I may reverse my opinion. Kids have a mind of there own. They will decide what they want despite there parents. Gay couples would be given a wake up call if they raised there kid to be excepting of there ways only to have it backfire on them when the kid becomes a teen. I would be willing to bet that this would happen more then not.
Doesn't work in my logic but have fun with it.
