quote Originally posted by Formula88: There are many things in the Bible which appear contradictory. When you take select passages out of context, you can make them appear to mean almost anything. .

Yep, the trick is not to do that.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Fixed it for you.

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: to mean that homosexuals shouldn't have children, rather, they couldn't.

True. He never actually said whether he thought homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt/raise families. His first answer was to simply say homosexuality is wrong.
My point is, that's not enough of a reason, since we're all sinners. Where do you draw the line?

If the argument is they can't have kids naturally, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to raise kids, fine. But what about infertile couples, then?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: True. He never actually said whether he thought homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt/raise families. His first answer was to simply say homosexuality is wrong. My point is, that's not enough of a reason, since we're all sinners. Where do you draw the line? If the argument is they can't have kids naturally, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to raise kids, fine. But what about infertile couples, then?

Agree

[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 11-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by texasfiero:

Texasfiero, I'm glad that you appreciated the humour, but I hope you can also appreciate that many (the majority?) of us are alarmed that the interpretations of a old book would be used to make a judgement rather than observation and independent thought.

Every situation is different, there is always plenty of "grey area" to consider. Yes, it takes a lot of effort. But that's what life is all about...

If they are responsible law abiding citizens that are willing to care for a child, and have the financial means, i don't see why their orientation has a thing to do with it.

Until they can separate this issue from the religion issue I will continue to vote to not allow same sex marriages. Just because I think it will be used/abused by those that want to force a religious organization into marring them. You cannot guarantee freedom of religion then force that religion to go against what it stands for. I have no issues with a union under law but not at the expense of someone else's religious views.

Now to your question, I don't care as long as they are good parents what their sexual orientation is as long as it doesn't include the kid.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Every situation is different, there is always plenty of "grey area" to consider. Yes, it takes a lot of effort. But that's what life is all about...

I'm in agreement with you. It is just that there are so many issues that could be easily resolved by just applying a set of standards, and the question here is whether homosexuals should be allowed to adopt.

The bible clearly condemns homosexuality. One claim is that homosexuals are born rather than created. I don't believe that. While tendency to live out feelings or desires may be inherent, actually 'living' the homosexual lifestyle is a 'choice'. The bible teaches that we have a free will. While we are 'born in sin' (born with a sinful nature), God has given us the ability to choose another path.

As a christian, I don't believe it should be taught to innocent children, therefore, I wouldn't allow children to be placed with homosexual couples.

Other areas clearly require consideration of many sides before judgment can be issued.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: My point is, that's not enough of a reason, since we're all sinners. Where do you draw the line?

I believe that if you do not repent, you are still going to hell, so if someone who was a homosexual realizes it was wrong and changes, then the grace is upon him.

However, to still be in a Homosexual relationship, and just say that Jesus saves you from your sins and expect to go to heaven, would be hypocritical.

You do not tell yourself "God will just forgive me" before you commit the murder.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: I believe that if you do not repent, you are still going to hell, so if someone who was a homosexual realizes it was wrong and changes, then the grace is upon him. However, to still be in a Homosexual relationship, and just say that Jesus saves you from your sins and expect to go to heaven, would be hypocritical. You do not tell yourself "God will just forgive me" before you commit the murder.

You got it!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: My point is, that's not enough of a reason, since we're all sinners. Where do you draw the line?

You draw the lines at each individual sin.

It is specific, specifically men shall not lay down with men. The way it is seen raising kids is an issue beyond that initial problem.
Kinda like:
Like saying I stole this car, is it wrong if I speed when I drive it?

People treat homosexuality like it's a contagious disease. So what if a gay couple wants to adopt? Let them. They'd probably be better parents than half the straight couples out there. I honestly don't get the issue on this one.

Sure But I think that they should have there own kids first just to prove they can raise them

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: As an adopted child I will say no. I don't know about the USA but over here there is waiting lists to adopt. Those waiting lists should't have gays added to the list. The reason many married couples adopt is because for medical reasons they cant have children. Not being able to have children because nature wouldn't allow it doesn't count.

No offense Aus, but that is one of the most bigoted things I've ever read.

i realize i am in the minority here but i suport both gay marrage and gay adoption for the record i am deffinitly straight. i will suport both points here if i have time other wise i mgiht have to come back to it.
marrage i know many long term gay relationships a few which have gone on for 40 years (actualy 2 one is at 43 and one at 40 as of a few days ago) so the thougth that gays arnt as able to hold a long term relatioinship i think we can refut that i can ask my gay friends to post a few things under my name. if you would like to ask them some questions. I think that gays sould not be descriminated aginst because of there orientation many gay and lesbians i didnt know of their orientation untill i asked.
not adoption when kids are young enough to be inpressionable (in my opionion) no parent nomatter the orientaion sould be showing any kind of sexualy conact touching ETC so why would that effect a kid

Really, I must be missing the issue here. I honestly can't understand why people have such a problem with homosexuality and gays adopting.

As far as being gay.....
They're not hurting anyone. They just want to be happy. They're not going to poke you if you bend over, they're not going to be all over you in the bar, and you're not going to get Floppy Hand Syndrome if you touch them. So what's the issue?

On gays adopting.....
I think the main issue here is that there are millions of children in need of good homes. What's to say that if they get adopted by a straight couple they're going to be well taken care of? What's to say they won't get adopted by an athiest couple, or a wiccan couple, or a Satanist couple? Is that any better or worse than them being adopted by a gay couple? So it's ok then if a child gets placed in a home where they worship the devil and have animal sacrifices, as long as they're not gay....come on, how stupid does that sound? If they can provide a good, nurturing home and environment and are financially stable enough to support a child, then they should definitely be able to adopt. Gay, straight...it doesn't matter, they should all have to meet the same criteria. They need to be willing and able to properly care for and love the child. Isn't that the most inportant thing?

I know I want to adopt someday, and I certainly hope no one keeps me from being a mom just because I'm married to a woman.

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-07-2008).]

Some gay couples have just as much love and morality to teach a child as some heterosexual couples. They don't teach a gay lifestyle. I believe gay people are born that way. I have a gay cousin, and we knew he was gay by the time he was 5 years old. His brothers are not gay. The child cannot be turned gay imho. A loving stable family is what these children need. It would be great if more people adopted the older children as well. Gay or straight.
JMHO.

Jane

------------------
Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: People treat homosexuality like it's a contagious disease. So what if a gay couple wants to adopt? Let them. I honestly don't get the issue on this one.

Let me explain it to you as I see it.
Violence in movies is not a contagious disease. Neither is religion. Yet, when we allow examples of things such as that, it can be considered acceptable.
The issue is a community accepted example of morality. We hope to instill ideas about how life should be. We are not always right. In this question/post, I feel that a family is a man/woman/child. Till death does part. Adoption is good as it is necessary on both sides sometimes.
I dunn know, how 'bout I just adopt a wife ?

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: So it's better then that millions of kids grow up in foster homes and group homes and such? I think most people would agree that it's much better for a child to have a loving family than to have no family at all.

I grew up in foster homes. Been in group homes. I can speak with experience. Can you ?
Did you use the word family ? That is a pretty definitive word. I have friends more like family than my own, but, they are not family. What is the difference in a foster home and pseudo parents ? Nothing. I have been in good foster homes, great foster homes, and piss holes. Just as people have good, great, and piss ant parents. Pseudo parents I would not think would be any different.
Define loving family. I can tell you this. I really loved my pick up truck till I started having problems with it. A real parent never not loves their child.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Why would anyone have to force any religious organization into marrying them? That's what the justice of the peace is for. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state? The government claims they must be separated, but they continuously drag it into issues such as this one.

Well see, that is the thing. Marriage has become an institution. Created by God (I sense that you are not religious). At least recognized as such throughout the ages by man, man from all countries. Marriage is sacred whether one is religious or not. So, marriage (which was not even brought up in the thread topic, just replies), whether or not it is by a church or the justice of the peace, has always been recognized as being between a man and a woman. (Does that make it right is another thread topic.) However, it is hard if not impossible for an unmarried couple to adopt. As it stands, homosexual couples would have to force a justice of the peace to marry them. An unmarried couple is not legally considered family.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: If you take out the religious factor (which it shouldn't be a part of it to begin with), then I don't know of ANY decent argument against homosexuality or their adopting kids.

'Ya know, there is nothing wrong with love. I am 48 years old. I have a friend that I have had since fifth grade. When I talk to him, I end our conversation with my proclamation of my love for him. He is family to me. I have other friends I feel the same way about. I don't know of any decent arguments which would want me to take him to bed, . It is unnatural as in reproductive. So ? It is just a fling ? Then how bout two wives ? Two wives and a boyfriend ? No, marriage is an institution. Meant to promote family. An institution to be protected.

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: No, no nerve touched... I just felt it deserved it's own topic. Yes, many who seek adoption seek younger children. Does this mean that a gay couple is any better than a straight couple? And we can safely leave out single parent adoptions, as 99% of adoption agencies will not accept a single parent application.

It's a matter of money. Rosie O'Donnell managed to buy 3 babies while being single before she publicly admitted she was gay, but after she had publicly admitted depression issues. So if ya got the dollars then nothing much else is a barrier.

Watever happened to the freedom's this once great country was founded on? I am completly shocked at the number of people on this forum who would vote to take someone's freedom away from them without even giving them a fair chance at proving their worth.
So what if they are a homosexual that doesn't mean they are a bad person. I happen to live in California and have seen the demonstrators first hand. While I was driving around the other day I was stopped at a light and one of them walked up to my car and started shouting. Vote yes on 8 over and over again. I reached over to roll up my passenger window and she threw a flyer into my car and called me a homosexual. So I am automatically considered a homosexual because I made the choice to roll up my window.
Or maysbe it was because I am a 20 year old male driving a fiero, yeah I doubt that. Because I chose not to listen to her side of the story. I consider myself to be religious and try to treat everybody without judgement. But this debate is on about the same level
as racism was and still is. Why shouldn't homosexuals be allowed to adopt? When their are many racist families that are allowed to. I don't see how a homosexual is raised to be that way. Think about it if homosexuals can't reproduce then where did the first homosexual come from? Here I will answer it for your ignorrant simple minds A STRAIGHT COUPLE. Unfortunantly we live in a world where people can raise a child to hate another person and get away with it but a homosexual couple with the means to care for and provide for are not allowed. There is a saying that I think really fits here so enjoy.


You say that I'm a sinner,
You say I'm bound for hell,
So when your judgement condemns you,
I guess I'll see you there.


HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE TOLD THAT YOU WERE UNFIT TO RAISE A CHILD AND A FAMILY BASED ON THE WAY SOMEBODY FELT ABOUT YOU? LET THEM HAVE A CHANCE TO PROVE IT. IT HONESTLY HAS TO BE BETTER THAN LETTING THESE CHILDREN GROW UP IN FAMILIES THAT TEACH CHILDREN TO JUDGE SOMEBODY BASED ON THE COLOR OF THIER SKIN OR THE LANGUAGE THEY SPEAK. OR BETTER YET GROWING UP IN FOSTER HOMES WITH NO REAL FAMILY AND NOBODY TO BE PROUD OF THEM. I HAVE BEEN IN A FOSTER HOME AND IT SUCKS NEVER KNOWING WHEN YOU WILL BE SENT TO ANOTHER HOME NEVER HAVING FRIENDS BECAUSE YOU WERE NEVER IN ONE SPOT LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THEM.


That is the end of my rant on this subject. And if you have a problem with anything I wrote all I can say is so be it. This is how I feel and nothing can change that.

-Ben Tate-

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: No offense Aus, but that is one of the most bigoted things I've ever read.

The truth hurts huh?
Nothing beats the fact that gay couples just aren't designed to have children. So nature never meant it to be. Allowing gays to adopt is just screwing up the natural order of things. If you support gays having children it must mean you also support other things nature never allowed to happen. I bet if questioned in detail on that you are against heaps of things man can do that nature really says we shouldn't.

Just want to express my opinion, that yes, gay couples should be allowed to adopt children. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to. We as a world should not be making decisions in government based solely on our religious beliefs. Who are we to tell someone else that the way they live is wrong? How do you know that how you live isn't the wrong way to be doing things?

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: So it's better then that millions of kids grow up in foster homes and group homes and such? I think most people would agree that it's much better for a child to have a loving family than to have no family at all.

Thats why it should just be votred on I guess. But you are assuming they would adopt an unwanted child and not inseminate, as well.

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: It can be done, on ONE five figure income. Myself and my wife are proof (3 children, and we always had a washing machine so no need to find a rock).

Well, that's not being very Frugal now is it? Rocks are free. You need to change your username to something more appropriate--like spendhappyFiero or MaytagFiero.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Why would anyone have to force any religious organization into marrying them? That's what the justice of the peace is for. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state? The government claims they must be separated, but they continuously drag it into issues such as this one. If you take out the religious factor (which it shouldn't be a part of it to begin with), then I don't know of ANY decent argument against homosexuality or their adopting kids.

Right now they are trying to force churches to hire homosexuals to work in churches and teach children, it is being voted on. The churches themselves have no say.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Religious doesn't mean anything. I can religiously bruch my teeth everyady. If you believe teh bible you would not have this question. Maybe you believe a different religion. You just compared Homosexuals to racists.

We need less religous people, and more committed people of faith.

Jim

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Well, that's not being very Frugal now is it? Rocks are free. You need to change your username to something more appropriate--like spendhappyFiero or MaytagFiero.

Maytags are free if you find them at the curb in the trash. (I have never actually purchased a washer / dryer, and just one of the ways you can make it with one income)

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Jaygee, my respect. You are not married to a woman. I was not married to the woman who bore my first child till after conception. You would have to bear a child to truly knowing what being a Mom is. 'Ya know, I used to be a Big Brother. I still see some of my little brothers. I think I see your feelings as needing to be validated in your choices. I will tell you this. I am comfortable with myself. Perhaps....because I am not of your mind set, I can not see.

I most certainly AM married to a woman. I have the marriage certificate to prove it. Things like that are allowed in Massachusetts.

I see this has degraded to a religous arguement. sorry - religion actually does not apply. while it is true that MANY marriages have a religous base to them - that is purely by the choice of those "getting hitched". Yes, I also see the fact that most religions "say no" to gays. that is fine as well. "The Gays" are not asking for permission from the church. They are asking for permission from the state. and, actually, not even asking permission - just legal backing. because marragie is NOTHING but a promise between 2 people. That is it. maybe we should try this the other way around: REMOVE all laws which regard marriage. WTF does the state have to do with a marriage between a man & woman?? as far as I know - DIVORCE is the only reason. what is wrong with just fully stepping back, and letting couples work it out themselves? why FORCE it with the weight of law? maybe couples will take that step a little more serious.