Good point /\, tho I can envision mass desertions & abandonments under this scenario. A LOT of people would drop their responsibilites/commitments like a rock if it weren't for state laws promising potential punishment if they do. A lot do anyway, but I think that # would @ least quadruple under your proposed angle.
People are not very reliable-- they tend to turn into butterflies.

im gunna take this off topic for a few posts pls
who actualy knows a homosexual couple who has lasted more then a few years (im talking serious and comitted not like joe shmo and me dtated for a week)
i personaly know 2 that have lasted over forty years and are still going and a sprinklying in the twenty years with my best friend (he came out of the closet while i knew him) has been in a realtaionship for 4 years (i personaly have no problem around him at his house ETC)

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I see this has degraded to a religous arguement. sorry - religion actually does not apply.

Have to disagree with this statement, religion is where the vast majority of our values were derived from. This is afterall a values discussion.

Ron

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: I am serious. People don't care if a child is adopted by a couple of a different faith than they are. They don't care, because it's that couples right to raise the child how they see fit and we are not supposed to force our beliefs on others. What's the difference? Most people in this country total hypocrits.

They care, of course they do. You don't get a chance to do something about it very often. In this case there was enough of a disagreement that courts were brought into it.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Have to disagree with this statement, religion is where the vast majority of our values were derived from. This is afterall a values discussion. Ron

ok, and since the Bible does NOT say ANYTHING about Gay's raising children - it is OK according to the Bible? so, the religious should be all ok, right?
Let those without sin cast the first stone, is it?
yes, we all know the Bible dont like the gays - yet it is NOT one of the seven deadly sins, is it? and, I see endless abusers of the REAL sins, who participate on sundays, raising children.
I myself am of the feeling that people who start sentances with "and the Bible says...." should not be allowed to raise children. To me this shows a great amount of indoctrination. religion because you beleive & have faith is great - but religion because you are brianwashed is frightening.

quote Originally posted by Bremertonfiero: im gunna take this off topic for a few posts pls who actualy knows a homosexual couple who has lasted more then a few years (im talking serious and comitted not like joe shmo and me dtated for a week) i personaly know 2 that have lasted over forty years and are still going and a sprinklying in the twenty years with my best friend (he came out of the closet while i knew him) has been in a realtaionship for 4 years (i personaly have no problem around him at his house ETC)

This bring me to another thing. God does not hate gays, niether do people who believe in god. Love does not mean acceptance of disobedience. I know those words will cause issues with alot of people. We all want to be free to do what we want, take what we want, etc. If there were no laws or enforcement of them were would we be? Rules are not just for safety, and there is a right and wrong.
There are always groups of psychos, waving signs and such that are uncalled for, and mean. This is not right, and does not symbolize my stance at all on this issue.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I see this has degraded to a religous arguement. sorry - religion actually does not apply.

How is it NOT a religious issue?

Matthew 19:5 - "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Romans 1:27 - "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of the error which was due."

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian:They are asking for permission from the state.

Where does the state get its power? Isn't it FROM the people? And if the people create law based upon their religious convictions, which is constitutionally granted, then why should gays NOT be responsible to the law until they can change it.

Cliffw you and I have simular back grounds I too grew up in boys homes. I would have rather grown up there then in the care of a Gay couple. I Think it would almost be like letting a petifile raise a kid, Pefifiles were born that way too but you dont see me wanting to let pedifiles have there way as well.

Since this topic is quickly going religious, I'll add some. If you really want to be technical about what the Bible says about gays, it only refers to gay MEN. It doesn't even refer to women. I can argue the religious side all day. I come from a very religious family, and I attend church every Sunday morning. Yes, even though I'm a lesbian, I go to church. Haven't caught on fire as of yet.

Morality and values shouldn't be based on any certain religion, especially in a world where we value diversity so much. Instead, it should be based on doing the right thing, and consideration for your peers. And as for the foster home subject...no, I've never been in one. However, both my mom and aunt have worked in Social Services for many years. Some of the stories they could tell you would make your skin crawl. Granted, some kids...the lucky ones...are able to stay in the system and come out fine. But there are far too many that end up in crappy homes, being abused, neglected, etc. Or just tossed around so much that it's impossible for them to get any sense of family.

Marriage is an institution, I definitely agree with that. Anyone know the definition of institution? Hmm? So as not to leave anything out, I'll just post the entire definition:

in⋅sti⋅tu⋅tion – noun
1. an organization, establishment, foundation, society, or the like, devoted to the promotion of a particular cause or program, esp. one of a public, educational, or charitable character: "This college is the best institution of its kind."
2. the building devoted to such work.
3. a public or private place for the care or confinement of inmates, esp. mental patients or other disabled or handicapped persons.
4. a well-established and structured pattern of behavior or of relationships that is accepted as a fundamental part of a culture, as marriage: the institution of the family.
5. any established law, custom, etc.
6. any familiar, long-established person, thing, or practice; fixture.
7. the act of instituting or setting up; establishment: the institution of laws.
8. Ecclesiastical. a. the origination of the Eucharist, and enactment of its observance, by Christ.
b. the investment of a member of the clergy with a spiritual charge.

As you can see, the only part of the definition that mentions religion has nothing at all to do with marriage. Only instilling a member of the clergy into the church or the sacrament of holy communion. By definition, marriage is NOT a religious institution. It is only made that way by society. (I'll be happy to post the definition of family too, if you'd like.)

My religious beliefs have nothing to do with my sexual orientation. We are all God's children, no matter what race, color, sexual orientation, etc. My sexual orientation is between me, my wife, and God. It's no one else's buisness and no one elses place to judge me for it.

PS....I am LEGALLY married to a woman. We were married by a member of the clergy. A gay Reverend. Yes Virginia, they do exist.

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-07-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: So now all gay people are pedophiles?

no - but both are sexual deviants

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Yes, even though I'm a lesbian *snip* PS....I am LEGALLY married to a woman.

Pics or it didn't happen.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: My religious beliefs have nothing to do with my sexual orientation. We are all God's children, no matter what race, color, sexual orientation, etc. My sexual orientation is between me, my wife, and God. It's no one else's buisness and no one elses place to judge me for it.

No one but God who says no, am I right?

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: Where does the state get its power? Isn't it FROM the people? And if the people create law based upon their religious convictions, which is constitutionally granted, then why should gays NOT be responsible to the law until they can change it.

so true.
but, this is raising children - not marriage
and, if a single mom is allowed - I do not see how\why a gay couple should not be.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: No one but God who says no, am I right?

NO ONE. I don't care if people agree with it or disagree with it. It's my life and my choice. Period.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: NO ONE. I don't care if people agree with it or disagree with it. It's my life and my choice. Period.

I won't say more as it won't go anywhere, and could only offend.

I don't think God said NO to her, as he didn't smite her for marrying another woman.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: So....homosexuals never have failed relationships ?

Yes, we do. just as much as everyone else.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: We were married by a member of the clergy. A gay Reverend. Yes Virginia, they do exist.

Surely you don't expect to surprise anyone with that underlined revelation?
Courtrooms, both civil cases and criminal, have been full of them for a few decades now.
Just stating the obvious--no reference to your own minister intended.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Surely you don't expect to surprise anyone with that underlined revelation? Courtrooms, both civil cases and criminal, have been full of them for a few decades now. Just stating the obvious--no reference to your own minister intended.

No, not at all. It just seems like some people on here think you can't be both gay and religious. Just pointing out that that is not the case.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: No, not at all. It just seems like some people on here think you can't be both gay and religious. Just pointing out that that is not the case.

According to Webster:

re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Use which ever is most applicable.

Ron

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: This came out of uhlanstan's thread located here.. WARNING! FOUL LANGUAGE/DEROGATORY TERMS AT THE LINK! You have been warned. With the intent to avoid having a valid discussion head for the trash can because of a pointless thread, I have decided to move it here. This is related to the Proposition 8 vote happening in California related to a ban on Gay Marriages. I give to you the following for your consideration. My response in that thread before I edited it. For the sake of discussion, what right do you have to determine whether or not they should even adopt? I realize you are stating your opinion, and I respect that.

Before I start, I just read the title of the linked post, I know I shouldn't laugh, but whenever I read the words "poop chute" I can't help but laugh, maybe I'm just too immature.

As it stands, I currently believe that homosexual couples should be allowed to adpot children. The ONLY reason I feel this way, is that I can only assume a child in a loving, financially stable, family relationship is a much better place than a foster home. The child automatically has a better chance at life, education, etc.


To add to that though, I do think there are some pros and cons to a child being raised by a homosexual couple.

In school, what do you do on "bring daddy to school day" if you have two dads, or no dads? When the other kids find out that your parents are gay, and they tell their parents, and the parents tell their kids that's wrong, and those kids them make fun of the kid with the gay parents... imagine how difficult that child's life will get? A lot of people's lives are affected directly by how they're treated when they're younger. Just look at McFly in Back to the Future (pre-timetravel).

So, that is something to consider, and the parents either need to seriously consider where they raise the child, whether it's somewhere where that kind of thing isn't really accepted, or it's in a place where it's a little bit more nromal (San Fransisco for example, as apposed to Muscle Schoals, Alabama).

quote Originally posted by cliffw: So....homosexuals never have failed relationships ?

They certainly do. I knew this one guy from a previous job. He moved to Dallas, with his life partner. As it would turn out, the company I was working for started sending me on business trips to Dallas, a full week, once a month. Every time I'd go there, I'd visit with my buddy, and they'd take me to dinner. They got in a fight one night, and then there was only one of them at dinner from then on out...

quote Originally posted by 2.5: This depends onm whether you think all homosexuals were born as they are, or were impressioned or chose to be homosexual. I think there are some in the second category. I think growing up in that atmosphere will have a high probablility of failing to do what you said.

With the exception of the friend mentioned above, and my wife's sister...

Every single other homosexual I have ever known, had something happened to them when they were younger. I don't know enough to presume why they are gay, but I can only guess it had something to do with it. There are some gay people who you can clearly tell are simply just effeminate... and maybe have more or less had those tendancies their entire lives. And then there are those people who were abused, or raped when they were younger, and turned out gay for whatever reason. Like this one guy I knew who when he was 13, he was raped by three dudes, they even kicked in his nuts (I guess he has fake balls?). And he's gay.

And then, one of my old bosses at a job 3 jobs ago, even had a sex change... (that was interesting). He went from Dave to Diane.

So, I guess the point of all of this is... is that, you can either just be born gay (maybe it's a genetic trait?) but it seems obvious to me that you can also "become" gay due to childhood circumstances... although, don't really see how being molested by an adult male (as a boy) would then make you WANT that when you're older???

I dunno, but I'll tell you one thing... the best **** on the internet is between two hot lesbians. I think we can all agree on that. Well... most of us at least.

------------------
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convt. (Wife's)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1981 EZ-GO Xi875-A "Miami Dolphins" Medical Cart
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 350

My take on this whole subject is, this is an agenda driven "In your face" initiative. Why is it that people like Barney Frank and his lover aren't interested in legalizing gay marriage? For any of you that have ever witnessed a gay pride parade, (see below image) these are the fringe that push this whole thing onto the ballot. It's nothing more than a slap in the face to Christianity and traditional values. They carry placards that read "Fight Aids" yet they are a primary source of it's spread.

[This message has been edited by rpro (edited 11-07-2008).]

A slap in the face to christianity? I didn't know that A. christianity had exclusive rights to marriage or B. that government definition was to be excusably dictated by christians.

How can you justify a gay couple marching into a church demanding the pastor to marry them, then cry for the ACLU to step in if they refuse? That's the slap in the face I'm referring to. The marriage of a man and a woman stems from the word of God, and that tradition has successfully been observed throughout history. If you don't hold these christian beliefs, I guess you can go through the motions if it makes your boat float. I just happen to think it's contrary to nature and mankind in general and would never support it. If I want to marry my donkey, I will go out back and hold a private ceremony, not take it to the streets because I'm so proud of my chosen lifestyle.

I've known a couple that has been together for 50 years, and they raised 5 children. none of them are gay. They are happy and well adjusted. Married gay couples should be judged on the same merits as straight couples when it comes to adopting children. Who is to say that the apostles didn't just throw that into their writings because they didn't agree with gay sex. Did anyone here know the apostles personally? Maybe they misinterpreted what God was saying to them.

Jane

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Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality

The apostles never had anything to say about homosexual's. This was given by God to the people of Israel when they wanted a law. The administration we live in today (After Pentecost) does not say one single thing about homosexuallity. Jews, Gentiles, all alike... equal now. Trying to turn this into a biblical issue is wrong, and so is making it political. I equate this with the topic of abortion. It's a personal decision and the government shouldn't be involved, nor should the churches. Having said that, gays shouldn't expect the church to welcome them with open arms to perforn a wedding. I don't see Christians going to a Wicken meeting to request a baptisim.

[This message has been edited by rpro (edited 11-07-2008).]

quote Originally posted by rpro: My take on this whole subject is, this is an agenda driven "In your face" initiative. Why is it that people like Barney Frank and his lover aren't interested in legalizing gay marriage? For any of you that have ever witnessed a gay pride parade, (see below image) these are the fringe that push this whole thing onto the ballot. It's nothing more than a slap in the face to Christianity and traditional values. They carry placards that read "Fight Aids" yet they are a primary source of it's spread.

Yes, the gay rights cause does more damage to itself with these displays than any opposing group can begin to cause. You would be promptly arrested for indecent exposure in most places for this and if there are kids present then you also get a bonus sex offender charge.

quote Originally posted by rpro: How can you justify a gay couple marching into a church demanding the pastor to marry them, then cry for the ACLU to step in if they refuse? That's the slap in the face I'm referring to. The marriage of a man and a woman stems from the word of God, and that tradition has successfully been observed throughout history. If you don't hold these christian beliefs, I guess you can go through the motions if it makes your boat float. I just happen to think it's contrary to nature and mankind in general and would never support it. If I want to marry my donkey, I will go out back and hold a private ceremony, not take it to the streets because I'm so proud of my chosen lifestyle.

Show me where gays are demanding that priest marry them or else. They aren't asking to force churches to marry them just that the government give them equality. Marriage was around before your abrihamic god. Before the jews. Before the god Mystra that the jews and consequently the christians and muslims based their god on. Your gods word means nothing to the people who have seen marriage as a secular joining in cultures around the world. Nor does you gods word mean anything to Hindus, Sikh, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, or any number of the other 1000 religions around the world. You religion is not very old. You traditions stem for earlier times of different gods. Gays wouldn't take it to street if you just treat them with respect and equality. In the Hindu religion marriage to animals isn't unheard of and is ceremonial.

Personally I don't think the government should be in any way dictating marriage. In doing so they do what a government shouldn't in segregating and denying a group of people. There is far more to marriage then just the religious aspect. There are a multitude of legal perks that come with it since the government has its hand in it. Its about equal rights. And there some christian churches out there who would be happy to marry gays. And there are ways to get legally married with no religious aspect at all in the form of boat captains and judges/justice of the peace.

If you are a christian and think your christian form of marriage is the last word you are wrong. If you think the secular government should conform to your strict christian definition you are wrong. If you don't like gay marriage don't have one.

quote Originally posted by glane21: Eh? That's the salad bar mentality - take what you like and leave the rest. If that is your position then why even bother with the bible, just create your own religion and be done with it.

I have no belief in the bible as you can tell from not knowing that the Apostles didn't say anything about homosexual relationships. Just a bad example. I apoligize.

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Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: I most certainly AM married to a woman. I have the marriage certificate to prove it. Things like that are allowed in Massachusetts.

Sorry, a bad assumption on my part. I know many that call a partner wife/husband when they are not married. I did not know it was allowed in Mass. or anywhere.