Government dictates marriage for the same reason they do everything else, so people can be regulated and taxed. Half the tax code is designed to make the population behave a certain way that is deemed good for the country's continued existence.

So in your design, this year I say I'm married to Jill on my tax return and next year I decide I'm married to Trish on my return and the following year we decided we're all single again. Wouldn't work out so well on collecting tax revenues would it?

Same reason someone's not really dead until you get a death certificate.

When you are dead--you are really dead--what you mean is 'legally dead'. Mostly for insurance and probate purposes.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: Personally I don't think the government should be in any way dictating marriage. In doing so they do what a government shouldn't in segregating and denying a group of people. There is far more to marriage then just the religious aspect. There are a multitude of legal perks that come with it since the government has its hand in it. Its about equal rights. And there some christian churches out there who would be happy to marry gays. And there are ways to get legally married with no religious aspect at all in the form of boat captains and judges/justice of the peace.

quote Originally posted by glane21: Government dictates marriage for the same reason they do everything else, so people can be regulated and taxed. Half the tax code is designed to make the population behave a certain way that is deemed good for the country's continued existence.

Phranc, we as a country established a system which reflects the way that the majority want to live. It takes government to live this way through the enactment of laws. Were government not involved in marriage, we would have multiple wives, pre teen wives, arranged marriages of daughters, and who knows what else.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: And there some christian churches out there who would be happy to marry gays.

No, you are wrong. They may say that they are but they are not. A Christian church follows all of God's words as God is absolute. It does not pick and choose which words it wants to follow.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: PS....I am LEGALLY married to a woman. We were married by a member of the clergy. A gay Reverend. Yes Virginia, they do exist.

Have you heard of, do you remember, the Reverend Jim Jones ? A reverend in one church is a pastor in another. A reverend is just a title. That any religious group can bestow upon it's chosen leaders. I am sure gay reverends do exist.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: No, not at all. It just seems like some people on here think you can't be both gay and religious. Just pointing out that that is not the case.

quote blackrams According to Webster: re·li·gion Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely Date: 13th century 1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness 4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith Use which ever is most applicable.

Jaygee, again my respect. I am not preaching. We are having a discussion which should be beneficial to all. In that we understand the thoughts of others as this is important if there ever will be change.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: I don't care if people agree with it or disagree with it. It's my life and my choice. Period.

I would defend your right to choice, we are all different. I can also easily see that gays get shafted in rights that go along with the benefits of marriage. I am for equal rights but I feel that they should be given through civil unions. You mentioned marriage as an institution. Many married folk view it as a sacred institution.
Would you be in support of couples who smoked pot to be able to adopt ? I would. Society as a whole does not believe it to be beneficial. Do you fight for the beliefs of others if they do not agree with your own ? You seem to say that people can be who/what they want.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Since this topic is quickly going religious, I'll add some. If you really want to be technical about what the Bible says about gays, it only refers to gay MEN. It doesn't even refer to women. Morality and values shouldn't be based on any certain religion,

But, you chose a gay minister--and I am assuming that is him in the wedding pic? Does the bible say anything about 'avoiding even the appearance of impropriety"?
Yes, of course it does, tho that is a modern day translation. The original term was evil instead of impropriety.

quote Marriage is an institution, I definitely agree with that. Anyone know the definition of institution? Hmm? So as not to leave anything out, I'll just post the entire definition: in⋅sti⋅tu⋅tion – noun 1. an organization, establishment, foundation, society, or the like, devoted to the promotion of a particular cause or program, esp. one of a public, educational, or charitable character: "This college is the best institution of its kind..........." .

There are very few organizations, businesses or affiliations that do not fit into that broad definition. Farming could be considered an institution--PFF could be as well.

quote My religious beliefs have nothing to do with my sexual orientation. We are all God's children, no matter what race, color, sexual orientation, etc. My sexual orientation is between me, my wife, and God. It's no one else's buisness and no one elses place to judge me for it.

[/quote]
Judge not, lest ye be judged. Do you not judge those who would disagree with or protest your lifestyle 'choice'?

quote PS....I am LEGALLY married to a woman. We were married by a member of the clergy. A gay Reverend. Yes Virginia, they do exist.

I am pretty sure, that in the bible, (I could be wrong) God calls those men who lay with men--an Abomination. That is about as strong a language God ever uses. And, he uses it often.
Deuteronomy 22:5

quote "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

I'm curious. Has your minister ever said on the pulpit, exactly how he intends to get out of this? A deathbed prayer asking forgivness for a lifetime of activity that God himself so clearly called an abomination?

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: The US Bill of Rights guarantees the peoples of the United States the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Actually, it's the preamble to the Declaration of Independence. It states that we have the "inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Inalienable means natural rights or moral rights. Those are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society. Basically, it means that in a morally correct world, we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Word for word, the Preamble states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.".

My Creator happens to be God. God says that homosexuality is wrong. God also says that I don't have the right to judge anyone else. That's His job. Personally, I couldn't care less if someone is a homosexual or not as long as they don't force the issue on me.

quote Personally, I couldn't care less if someone is a homosexual or not as long as they don't force the issue on me.

I bet they could say the same thing about you. It's a two way street.
If we use some logic here is what we can get. God is a perfect being. Perfect beings make no mistakes, so gays are not a mistake.
We can also say God is a perfect being, we are made in his image, so we are also perfect. You can infer that gays are perfect too, since they are made in his image too.
What we all have to remember was that the Bible was written by men, interpreting the words of God. I'm sure some things were lost along the way and some people's oppinions were added. The only actual document that I know was written by God himself was the ten commandments and those have been lost to history. Anything else was written over the centuries by men, from stories that were handed down through many generations. There have been many agendas when writting this document, some were done to ensure women couldn't be priests or ministers. I don't think that was Jesus' intent. Let's use Mary Magdalene as am example. In 591 Pope Gregory I labeled her a sinful woman and this gave rise to the image of her as a prostitute because of other women she associated with. She was a devout minister of Jesus and this is pretty much a slander of her. Even back then she was breaking stereotypes and redifining women's roles in society.

quote Mary Magdalene is honored as one of the first witnesses of the Resurrection of Jesus, and received a special commission from him to tell the Apostles of his resurrection (John 20:11–18). Mary's role as a witness is interesting due to the fact women at that time could not be witnesses in legal proceedings.[13] Because of this, and because of her subsequent missionary activity in spreading the Gospel, she is known by the title, "Equal of the Apostles." She is often depicted on icons bearing a vessel of ointment, not because of the anointing by the "sinful woman." but because she was among those women who brought ointments to the tomb of Jesus. For this reason, she is called a Myrrhbearer.

You can read some more information of Mary's role in the church was here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalen

quote A group of scholars, the most familiar of whom is Elaine Pagels, have suggested that for one early group of Christians Mary Magdalene was a leader of the early Church and maybe even the unidentified Beloved Disciple, to whom the Fourth Gospel commonly called Gospel of John is ascribed.[24]

Some people would not have wanted a woman as the head of any church back then.

quote Further attestation of Mary Magdalene and her role among some early Christians is provided by the gnostic, apocryphal Gospel of Mary Magdalene which survives in two 3rd century Greek fragments and a longer 5th century translation into Coptic. In the Gospel the testimony of a woman first needed to be defended. All of these manuscripts were first discovered and published between 1938 and 1983, but as early as the 3rd century there are Patristic references to the Gospel of Mary. These writings reveal the degree to which that gospel was despised and dismissed by the early Church fathers. In the fragmentary text, the disciples ask questions of the risen Savior (a designation that dates the original no earlier than the 2nd century) and are answered.

quote Karen King of Harvard Divinity School has observed, "The confrontation of Mary with Peter, a scenario also found in The Gospel of Thomas, Pistis Sophia, and The Greek Gospel of the Egyptians, reflects some of the tensions in second-century Christianity. Peter and Andrew represent orthodox positions that deny the validity of esoteric revelation and reject the authority of women to teach." (introduction, The Nag Hammadi Library)

So we can see how men have changed history to suit their agendas. Those who follow blindly are blind. The Bible is meant as a guide but it is not to be taken literally 100% of the time. Those that have written and re-written it have changed some things to suit their own agendas.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 11-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Phranc, we as a country established a system which reflects the way that the majority want to live. It takes government to live this way through the enactment of laws. Were government not involved in marriage, we would have multiple wives, pre teen wives, arranged marriages of daughters, and who knows what else.

We are a federal republic with safe guards to ensure that minorities are not discriminated against. Gays are a minority. We are not a mob rule democracy. The only reason polygamy is illegal is because those "crazy mormons" practiced it. You know about the mormons right? Chased out the east and hunted down for their beliefs by the "christians". How best to oppress people you don't agree with then to pass a law that targets them. Like making laws against gay marriage. And we still have arranged marriage here.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: No, you are wrong. They may say that they are but they are not. A Christian church follows all of God's words as God is absolute. It does not pick and choose which words it wants to follow.

No I am right. There are churches out that that will marry gays. They say they will and they will. God never said anything about marrying gays. So how can absolute words mean anything when they haven't been said. Besides christians do pick and chose what laws to follow. In case you haven't noticed there was this guy named Luther who made a mess of the christian church back in the day because he didn't want to follow the same rules. Thats why today we have so many christian cults. Catholics, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Anglican, Coptic, Eastern Orthodox, Mormon, Baptist and a whole bunch more. All christian, all follow their own way.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: If we use some logic here is what we can get. God is a perfect being. Perfect beings make no mistakes, so gays are not a mistake.

Did you say logic ? How 'bout let's use some then.
You got all three right. Using just a little bit of logic and not all available is a mistake. How did that happen since God gave you logic...or not ? I would have to wonder if you have read the Bible or if you are just using some words from it, never mind a passage which is God's message.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: We can also say God is a perfect being, we are made in his image, so we are also perfect. You can infer that gays are perfect too, since they are made in his image too.

God did make a perfect world. So perfect that he allowed His creation man, a free choice. What could be more perfect than that ? He also gave them rules. Man violated those rules and the world became imperfect, by man's choosing. He also gave us a method of redemption but again, it is free choice.
Since when is an image an exact duplicate ? It is a likeness. We can be like God but again, we have free choice.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: What we all have to remember was that the Bible was written by men, interpreting the words of God. I'm sure some things were lost along the way and some people's oppinions were added. The only actual document that I know was written by God himself was the ten commandments and those have been lost to history.

Actually, again you are wrong. Twice. True that man put pen to paper but, his endeavor was guided by a higher power, the Holy Ghost. See, that is where people misunderstand the Bible. To get any meaning from it, the recipient must also be guided by the Holy Ghost.
The other fallacy you assert to be fact is that the only words in the Bible that were written by God were the Ten Commandments. Where do you get this idea ? If you would read Exodus 34:28, you would see that it was Moses, a man, that wrote on the stone tablets (which are not in the paper pages of the Bible) the Ten Commandments.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Anything else was written over the centuries by men, from stories that were handed down through many generations. There have been many agendas when writting this document, some were done to ensure women couldn't be priests or ministers. I don't think that was Jesus' intent. Let's use Mary Magdalene as am example. In 591 Pope Gregory I labeled her a sinful woman and this gave rise to the image of her as a prostitute because of other women she associated with. She was a devout minister of Jesus and this is pretty much a slander of her. Even back then she was breaking stereotypes and redifining women's roles in society.

Again, you are wrong.
The Bible is not one of those kindergarten games where a thought is given to the first person in an isle and secretly passed down, across, back up, etc, where things get lost in repetition. Each and every Bible translation was done by a group if international biblical scholars. All again guided by the Holy Ghost. Pope Gregory was a Catholic. Many Christians use the Bible but, that is man's interpretation, different religions using the Bible for their agenda. I believe in Christianity but not in religion.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: You can read some more information of Mary's role in the church was here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalen

! I should not use the Bible to argue a point. Your seeking asking for the Lord's guidance will enable you to find it. I am surely not gonna allow you to suggest that we can find out about the Bible from Wikipedia,

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Those who follow blindly are blind.

Those would not be the only blind.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by rpro: The apostles never had anything to say about homosexual's. This was given by God to the people of Israel when they wanted a law. The administration we live in today (After Pentecost) does not say one single thing about homosexuallity. Jews, Gentiles, all alike... equal now. Trying to turn this into a biblical issue is wrong, and so is making it political. I equate this with the topic of abortion. It's a personal decision and the government shouldn't be involved, nor should the churches. Having said that, gays shouldn't expect the church to welcome them with open arms to perforn a wedding. I don't see Christians going to a Wicken meeting to request a baptisim.

I am now confused by your words which swing both directions. What is your viewpoint?
Also you are equating this to another issue that IS biblical and political as it relates to law. Thou shalt not KILL.

As far as adoption goes, no problem as far as I can see.

I do have a problem from what I have heard from certain people, both here, and on T.V.

quote "Gays should not raise children because that puts the child in a predatory environment."

Umm no. I like tang, but that does not mean that I am going to go after any girl I see.

quote "Children need a male and female role model in their lives."

Yes they do, but that does not stop the untold numbers of single mothers and fathers that are out there. I do not know how many children are raised by single parents, most turn out fine. My Wife is from a single parent family. Her Mom is a drug addict, and an Alcoholic. her Mom has had 7 IIRC husbands, and is very "active" sexually. My Wife is the polar opposite despite her upbringing.

quote "Children raised by Gays will be Gay when they grow up."

Not really, the majority of Gay households that have children have straight children. Most Gay households seem to have a "let the child decide for themselves" attitude, and this approach works. Again the opposite of most "Christian" families where children are "Blacklisted" if they are openly gay, or otherwise, creating an environment that is more healthy for the child.

Anyway, I think it's all opinion (what I said) I just wanted to vent a little.

Brad

quote About who is perfect, don't kid yourself. About the rest, the bible is very accurate, compare it to other books and how painstakingly it has been kept. Magdelene was a prostitue when Jesus met her, she then changed. Jesus in one of his first acts went to an area and spoke to a person of decent that was looked down upon at the time, that person was also a woman, who men did not publically speak to at the time. Everything he did was an example to us. If a Church today descriminates against women as leaders, they are not interpreting correctly.

That is my point. No one is perfect. I was just using some flawed logic to show that exact point. I also used the Wikipedia article because it has most of what I was looking for there. It has links to the sources all the information came from so don't put it down because I referenced it. Mary Magdalene was NOT a prostitute, she only associated with them and over time was considered one by association. It is all explained in the wiki article. She was a sinner and was probably even possesed by demons. Jesus healed her and she was by his side till the end.
The original ten commandement tables were given to Moses by God and he destroyed them when he wound his people worshiping a golden calf idol.

quote After receiving the commandments and returning to Mount Sinai, Moses saw that the Israelites had "defiled themselves", and that his brother, Aaron, had made a Golden Calf and an altar in front of it. Moses, in terrible anger, broke the tablets.[12] God later offered Moses to carve two other tablets, to replace the ones he smashed.[13] God himself appears as the writer.[14] This second set, brought down from Mount Sinai by Moses,[15] was placed in the Ark of the Covenant,[16] hence designated as the "Ark of the Testimony."[17]

Here is another wiki article to help refresh your memery if you had forgotten about the second set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
The Bible also makes referrences to other laws not covered by the ten commandments. You can find them in the book of Exodus starting at Exodus 21 through 23. The ten commandments are in Exodus 20.
If you want to read about God giving Moses the ten commandments read Exodus 24.

quote 12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”

Notice it says that God has written the tablets that he is going to give to Moses.
You can read about the golden calf in Exodus 32.

quote The Golden Calf 32:1 When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” 2 So Aaron said to them, “Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden [1] calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!” 5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.” 6 And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. 7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”

You can also find a description of the tablets there and their destruction.

quote 15 Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written. 16 The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets. 17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a noise of war in the camp.” 18 But he said, “It is not the sound of shouting for victory, or the sound of the cry of defeat, but the sound of singing that I hear.” 19 And as soon as he came near the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, Moses' anger burned hot, and he threw the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. 20 He took the calf that they had made and burned it with fire and ground it to powder and scattered it on the water and made the people of Israel drink it.

In Exodus 34 Moses makes new tablets.

quote 34:1 The Lord said to Moses, “Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready by the morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself there to me on the top of the mountain. 3 No one shall come up with you, and let no one be seen throughout all the mountain. Let no flocks or herds graze opposite that mountain.” 4 So Moses cut two tablets of stone like the first. And he rose early in the morning and went up on Mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand two tablets of stone. 5 The Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, [1] forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” 8 And Moses quickly bowed his head toward the earth and worshiped. 9 And he said, “If now I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, please let the Lord go in the midst of us, for it is a stiff-necked people, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.”

So, my original posting that the ten commandments are the only document written by God himself stands, but they were destroyed by Moses. All other documents have been written by man, copied by man and translated by man over the centuries. No one can tell me that they are 100% accurate and faithful to the original stories and documents. That in itself would be a true miracle.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 11-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: That is my point.

No one is perfect.
Duhhh !!!! Did you read the Bible?
Your argument seems to be to live life not perfect, . Yet, you proclaim to be a perfectionist with your Fiero. Always bragging about every trophy you get.
We are impressed, .

quote No one is perfect. Duhhh !!!! Did you read the Bible? Your argument seems to be to live life not perfect, . Yet, you proclaim to be a perfectionist with your Fiero. Always bragging about every trophy you get. We are impressed,

Yes, obviously I read the Bible and even quoted it here, so people could see what I was talking about.
When was the last time I bragged about my car or the trophies I won and what does that have to do with this discussion? Does my car winning trophies offend you or are you just jealous of what I have been able to do with it by myself? I guess you needed to change the topic the discussion was following, because you wanted to avert attention to yourself for being wrong about the ten commandments being the only document ever that God himself wrote and physically gave to Moses.
I never have said I was perfect and I have never said my car is perfect. My Fiero isn't even fully finished, so how can it be perfect? Make me eat my words and find when I said I was perfect (except for my logic statement above that refers to all of us being perfect, which we all know is far from true) or that my car was perfect. My argument is not about perfection, if you have been reading what I have posted. It's about mans imperfections. Only God and Jesus are perfect and it would be an error to consider onself perfect or being capable of being perfect like them. People forget parts of stories they tell, things get lost in translations, and some things get added on to embellish the story. It is because of this that the Bible is not a perfect document.
Fortunately, God gave us all brains, so we can try and determine what is probably true and what isn't. Everyone is also free to believe what they want. Why do you think there are Atheist?

quote Originally posted by avengador1: If you want to learn about how the Bible was finalized, do a search for the first and second council of Nicaea in 325 AD and 787 AD. These were done to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy, the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom. Here is a quick breakdown on it's history. http://www.allaboutthejourn...ory-of-the-bible.htm Here is another interesting link. http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible2.htm

And, if you would like to see what that Council left out--go here to read theApocrypha.
These are scriptures, early testaments, history, details of Eden--all sorts of writing that the Council of Nicaea decided to leave out--as being uncanonized.
The King James version differs a great deal from the original Hebrew scripts.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: [QUOTE]Originally posted by cliffw: Phranc, we as a country established a system which reflects the way that the majority want to live. It takes government to live this way through the enactment of laws. Were government not involved in marriage, we would have multiple wives, pre teen wives, arranged marriages of daughters, and who knows what else.

We are a federal republic with safe guards to ensure that minorities are not discriminated against. Gays are a minority. We are not a mob rule democracy. The only reason polygamy is illegal is because those "crazy mormons" practiced it. You know about the mormons right? Chased out the east and hunted down for their beliefs by the "christians". How best to oppress people you don't agree with then to pass a law that targets them. Like making laws against gay marriage. And we still have arranged marriage here.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: No, you are wrong. They may say that they are but they are not. A Christian church follows all of God's words as God is absolute. It does not pick and choose which words it wants to follow.

No I am right. There are churches out that that will marry gays. They say they will and they will. God never said anything about marrying gays. So how can absolute words mean anything when they haven't been said. Besides christians do pick and chose what laws to follow. In case you haven't noticed there was this guy named Luther who made a mess of the christian church back in the day because he didn't want to follow the same rules. Thats why today we have so many christian cults. Catholics, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Anglican, Coptic, Eastern Orthodox, Mormon, Baptist and a whole bunch more. All christian, all follow their own way. [/QUOTE]


Interesting! My quoting you now includes your response to me which you quoted me, including the quote. Cool, . Needs some tweaking though.


You are correct Phranc, there are churches out there that will marry gays. Obama has a church which he favored. It also has a Reverend, . Reverend Wright does not preach a message that I want to hear. Some do though. Many churches of the same religious affiliation preach a different message. Many people go to churches that cater to their wishes and many churches cater. Not a reason to even go to church.
You are also correct that God did not say anything about marrying gays. Which actually says a lot considering what he did say about marriage.

quote Matthew 19:4-6 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

As well as the many other things He said about a man laying with a man. When He created the heavens and the Earth and made man, he saw that it was not good for man to be alone. He did not make another man.
I am not a Biblical scholar nor a religious scholar. Heck, I am not even a scholar, . I take you at your word about the Christians chasing the Mormons out of town. Sounds about right. They do not sound like Christians to me. Many will use the word of God to justify, which is wrong.
About the Mormons. They are free to practice their religion and do. They have found a place which has legalized their beliefs. Myself, I am against plural marriages but I support their freedom to do so. God did give all free will. If gays want to get married, same thing. Go where it is accepted, do not force others to legitimize your choices. The appearance of a gay couple (back on topic) raising children seems to legitimize it to the children being raised and also other children who see it. Not values which I care to support.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: All christian, all follow their own way.

Nah...a true Christian will follow the Bible.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-09-2008).]

and why shouldn't they be allowed??? They should definitely have the same rights as myself....being nagged at at 3am for a glass of milk. Up all night because baby has a cold or gas, teenager wanting to borrow the car, being called an a$$hole because they don't get their way, paying for college, etc.
Why should only the straight people have that?
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: and why shouldn't they be allowed??? They should definitely have the same rights as myself....being nagged at at 3am for a glass of milk. Up all night because baby has a cold or gas, teenager wanting to borrow the car, being called an a$$hole because they don't get their way, paying for college, etc. Why should only the straight people have that? Dave

Just one more way to look at it...and a quote only a father (straight OR gay) can truly appreciate!

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Sorry, a bad assumption on my part. I know many that call a partner wife/husband when they are not married. I did not know it was allowed in Mass. or anywhere.

Quite alright.

I'm just glad that I live in a state where equal human rights are valued. Now if the state didn't suck so much in every OTHER way.....

Well If Gays should be alloud to Get Married then Mormons should be alloud to have as many wives they want. It would only be fair.

quote Originally posted by 88_Fiero_2M4: Well If Gays should be alloud to Get Married then Mormons should be alloud to have as many wives they want. It would only be fair.

Cruel and excessive punishment has been struck down by the Supreme Court. One is more than any man should have to bear.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Isn't it supposed to be God, and not man, that decides who are the TRUE Christians?

Yes, thats why he gave us the Bible as a guidebook.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Cruel and excessive punishment has been struck down by the Supreme Court. One is more than any man should have to bear.

Don, man never gets just one. A mother in law comes with her, .

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Isn't it supposed to be God, and not man, that decides who are the TRUE Christians?

Yes. On Judgment Day.
Jaygee, you make some excellent points. However, there are excellent points on both (or more) sides of the argument. This is where concessions come in. You would have to admit you have a minority opinion, not that it should not be valued as much as the opinion of anyone else.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Just the term civil union alone is an example of inequality.

So is affirmative action.
To force your viewpoint on everyone else to accept, is wrong. I am not a zealot and will not jump into every thread discussing this issue. In the other thread I noticed many good counter points to yours. I also noticed that you did not address them.
I would like to keep our discussion open but just now my time is tight.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Nah...a true Christian will follow the Bible

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Isn't it supposed to be God, and not man, that decides who are the TRUE Christians?

The Bible is universally called The Word of God for a reason.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-10-2008).]

This thread is for the adopting & raising of children.
if a single mom is allowed - marriage is irrelevant.

and, I find it really mean spirited to deny a child a home over a child farm because of personal opinion.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: So we can see how men have changed history to suit their agendas. Those who follow blindly are blind. The Bible is meant as a guide but it is not to be taken literally 100% of the time. Those that have written and re-written it have changed some things to suit their own agendas.

Let's also remember that there were several other books that were written to be in the Bible, and later excluded. Who knows what these books said....

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Let's also remember that there were several other books that were written to be in the Bible, and later excluded. Who knows what these books said....

I do - but I'm not telling

anyways - yes - very important fact. the Bible as presented to people today is INCOMPLETE. even if it was at one time written by god - MEN editted gods word to suit THEIR needs. and - this is also only God V1. The New testament (God V2) was NOT written by god. AT ALL. and, I am not sure who wrote God V3.

and - again - this is about RAISING CHILDREN. None of the god trilogy has ANYTHING to say about gays raising children. They all DO say all men have sin. and, while they all agree gay aint right - gay certainly does not make the deadly sin list - or break any of the ten commandments. So - the bible says gays raising children is perfectly fine. so, the only ones who say it aint right - are those who judge others. which I do beleive is a combination of Wrath & Pride - which makes those who oppose gays raising children less worthy than the gays to raise children.

the joys of a text which can be twisted to suit your needs. you own book says it OK. but - boy them thumpers LOVE to punish others, dont they? punish the child for having no parents. punish the gay for being gay. good thing we've gotten to the point where they dont drown them in a dunking chair, eh? or squish between large rocks.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I do - but I'm not telling anyways - yes - very important fact. the Bible as presented to people today is INCOMPLETE. even if it was at one time written by god - MEN editted gods word to suit THEIR needs. and - this is also only God V1. The New testament (God V2) was NOT written by god. AT ALL. and, I am not sure who wrote God V3. and - again - this is about RAISING CHILDREN. None of the god trilogy has ANYTHING to say about gays raising children. They all DO say all men have sin. and, while they all agree gay aint right - gay certainly does not make the deadly sin list - or break any of the ten commandments. So - the bible says gays raising children is perfectly fine. so, the only ones who say it aint right - are those who judge others. which I do beleive is a combination of Wrath & Pride - which makes those who oppose gays raising children less worthy than the gays to raise children. the joys of a text which can be twisted to suit your needs. you own book says it OK. but - boy them thumpers LOVE to punish others, dont they? punish the child for having no parents. punish the gay for being gay. good thing we've gotten to the point where they dont drown them in a dunking chair, eh? or squish between large rocks.

What an amazing twisty web you weave. Many claims there are just not true, and alot have been gone over before. If the more times you say it, the more it is true for you then so be it.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: What an amazing twisty web you weave. Many claims there are just not true, and alot have been gone over before. If the more times you say it, the more it is true for you then so be it.

well, what part is untrue, so I dont make the same mistake again?
yes - it is untrue that I know what is contained in the parts of the bible which were removed.
and, yes - the assumption that "they love to punish"...yes - I cannot actually speak for them and their real intentions.

For one, though it may be an opinon...You take it to mean being gay isn't right, but that gays raising kids is just a ok?

Well, this sure is a prickly subject.

For those of you who are against gays adopting children, do you also oppose gays adopting gay children? And if so, why?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ........I find it really mean spirited to deny a child a home over a child farm because of personal opinion.

Personal opinion, , ?
Child Farm, , ?
A farm raises and sells crops. A dairy farm sells milk.
Personal opinion sets national opinion.
I would like to smoke pot and I think that it should be legal. That is my personal opinion. The selfish, that are pushing for their own agenda, I have to wonder why they are not fighting for the others who feel an unjust. It can easily become an "anything goes society".
All men were created equal. Along the way, they went different directions. Be it education or beliefs. No where in the Preamble or the Constitution does it say they have the right to remain equal. There are some rights that have been recognized as being unassailable. Perhaps gay rights might one day be one of them. Perhaps they should be. I don't know.
The counter argument here is that the gays want to live like they want. Which is also the argument against that. Which is right ? Both.
They say that if you do not like this country that you can leave. Not that they should have to but....why would they want to stay ? The Mormons did not have to leave. People came to this country to live as they wished. Should we allow the radical muslims in our country and tell us how we are supposed to believe like they do ?
I mean equal rights and all. We should all get to tell others how they will live. No, this is a democracy where the majority makes the rules. I know that it does not sound fair but, a majority decide what they want. I really see it as being no different than a democrat or a republican. We can all co-exist.
For the gays that insist on the word marriage, I just do not understand. Many are willing to give you the same rights yet, that is not good enough. Should we call republicans and democrats by the same name ? What ever happened to gay pride. Pick your own term. Do not force the others that believe different to accept your views. Which would be akin to forcing you to accept ours.