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#\ *doublec4* /# Official Build Thread by doublec4
Started on: 02-26-2009 06:22 PM
Replies: 855 (64591 views)
Last post by: doublec4 on 10-01-2017 08:18 PM
ALLTRBO
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Report this Post04-06-2011 11:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Too cool!
Yeah, that thing is massive! I'm sure it'll do its job very well once you get it tuned in. What are you going to do for the front to match all the downforce back there? If a simple splitter won't do enough it'll probably understeer like crazy coming out of a fast, wide sweeper because the front end is already so light.
Do you plan on engineering an underbody tray and a proper diffuser (as proper can be with bottom-fed engine bay cooling, anyway) to compliment the wing?

The next thing to seriously worry about with all this traction you'll have is the weak-sauce Fiero wheel bearings. Many a racer has had serious failures at the track when coupled with good traction. What are your plans for this?

Oh, one more thing; I may have missed it but what is the control mechanism for the wing? You mentioned that it's sensitive to potholes, does that mean you have suspension compression sensors?

Keep up the innovative work.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 04-06-2011).]

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-06-2011 12:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Too cool!
Yeah, that thing is massive! I'm sure it'll do its job very well once you get it tuned in. What are you going to do for the front to match all the downforce back there? If a simple splitter won't do enough it'll probably understeer like crazy coming out of a fast, wide sweeper because the front end is already so light.
Do you plan on engineering an underbody tray and a proper diffuser (as proper can be with bottom-fed engine bay cooling, anyway) to compliment the wing?

The next thing to seriously worry about with all this traction you'll have is the weak-sauce Fiero wheel bearings. Many a racer has had serious failures at the track when coupled with good traction. What are your plans for this?

Oh, one more thing; I may have missed it but what is the control mechanism for the wing? You mentioned that it's sensitive to potholes, does that mean you have suspension compression sensors?

Keep up the innovative work.



For the front, we have a splitter planned, also hood vents to further reduce lift and promote downforce. We originally had an active front splitter planned but we just didn't have enough time to take that on during the school year. If the car still understeers then we can always dial down the downforce in the rear during cornering. Front canards etc could be used if we really want to try and increase front downforce. We'll see how it reacts and then come up with a game plan. This whole thing is proof of concept right now and should be easily implemented on any vehicle. We chose the Fiero because... well, we had it at our disposal and I didn't mind

Hopefully the wheel bearings will hold up. Don't want to find out the hard way! However, I will have to look into alternative options if it becomes a major concern. I didn't really think of that, thanks for pointing it out

A full under tray would be nice, but again its time and money and we'll see where things go. The mid engine is a challenge with the cooling issue like you mentioned.

For detecting turns and braking we are using an accelerometer. Therefore bumps and potholes pose a challenge. More "noise" for the processor to sort through.

 
quote
Originally posted by thedrue:

Wow, all I have to say is Wow! Great build, great car! It will be very interesting to see how that wing reacts and changes the dynamics of the car on the track.

It definitely looks huge on the car, did not realize how big it was from the build pictures.

Good work!



It's definitely big lol. We get some odd looks on the road but its all in good fun.

Keep checking back, always more updates

[This message has been edited by doublec4 (edited 04-06-2011).]

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post04-06-2011 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

As a noise filter, can you do a running average over .1 to .2 seconds? Seems like it would smooth out the bumps, while still being fairly responsive..

------------------


Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-06-2011 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

We do have a running average going already, but we're going to take a larger sample like you said. That was one of our ideas. We have a few others, just playing around with the thresholds and sensitivity too. Good suggestion!

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-06-2011 07:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here is another very short video. Taken with a different camera, pretty low rez. Hopefully you can make something out from it!



Enjoy

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-09-2011 02:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Tested and modified the software for the wing further. Have it working almost perfect again. Just want it to be slightly more sensitive to braking. Other than that, its working flawlessly.

Here are some pictures from the testing session, as well as some pictures from our presentation at the school. All of the final year engineering projects were being presented:



















I have a video compilation that one of my group members put together. It should be up on youtube soon and I will post it

Enjoy!

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-09-2011 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here's a compilation video of all of the testing footage so far. I apologize for the weird sounding audio. Something happened to it when I uploaded it to youtube? I don't want to do an "audioswap" otherwise you won't be able to hear the car...



Enjoy!

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FieroAK
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Report this Post04-10-2011 04:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroAKClick Here to Email FieroAKSend a Private Message to FieroAKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That audio situation is indeed interesting... could hear the car, the singer (Nickelback, good choice man lol), but the music itself was distorted. Ahh youtube, it screws us.

On another note, that wing looks good. I'm assuming the handling and breaking are noticeably improved? Haha.

------------------

This is my newb MS Paint Sig.

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-10-2011 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

To be honest, I haven't noticed a difference. Need to get up to higher speeds than you can safely do on a road. Going to be taking it to the track sometime soon for a lapping day!

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Curlrup
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Report this Post04-11-2011 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CurlrupClick Here to visit Curlrup's HomePageSend a Private Message to CurlrupEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:

Playing with electronics...



A little bit of progress everyday.


Arduinos rock! I auve used them on numerous projects for work and I made a 3d printer with one. Good stuff.

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-11-2011 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

They're definitely handy little guys. Inexpensive too. Very popular for projects!

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JSzpotek
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Report this Post04-12-2011 02:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JSzpotekClick Here to Email JSzpotekSend a Private Message to JSzpotekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ah rockin the Gongshow cap? Atta be!

 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:



Enjoy!


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doublec4
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Report this Post04-12-2011 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sorry! No gongshow hat my friend. Just a regular old mesh back lol.

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JSzpotek
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Report this Post04-12-2011 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JSzpotekClick Here to Email JSzpotekSend a Private Message to JSzpotekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ahh hahaha, looks just like my bud's hat..

 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:

Sorry! No gongshow hat my friend. Just a regular old mesh back lol.


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Lonster
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Report this Post04-12-2011 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LonsterSend a Private Message to LonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:
I bought some splash guards and actually placed them in front of the the front wheels. I'm running 225 series tires up front with a 38mm offset rim so they stick out a bit. I've seen these "reverse mudflaps" on some other sports cars. I figured I'd give it a shot, they look pretty good and shield the edge of the tire from air that would create drag on them. Basically they just look cool.



Since you are studying aerodynamics, does this mod have functionality to push the air around the tires and wheelwell?

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-12-2011 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Aerodynamics isn't really my area of study. Myself and two others took on the other project to learn outside of our usual realm. However, I don't think those reverse mudflaps could hurt. It is shielding some of the tire from a direct path of high velocity air. Probably reduces drag on the tires. I figure if they do this kind of thing on high end sports cars, it must have a purpose. They can spend the millions in the wind tunnel testing this stuff, and you just have to copy them

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Report this Post04-13-2011 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LonsterSend a Private Message to LonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Enlighten me! Which cars have the reverse mudflaps. Yours is the first I've really seen.

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-13-2011 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I've definitely seen it on the ZR1, I also remember seeing something similar on a newer-ish Porsche (sorry can't remember the model), as well as an older Imprezza STI. They're around on certain vehicles, just keep your eye out for them. I like the way it looks on the Fiero so I was happy with how it turned out

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Report this Post04-13-2011 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LonsterSend a Private Message to LonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the info. A quick search on the ZR1 shows: your "reverse mud flap" is also refered to as a "Gurney Flap" or "Gurney Lip" (as was used by Dan Gurney) and is used to direct air around the front wheelwell. The flap also creates a small low pressure area beside the wheel that helps pull air through the brake ducts.
Cool stuff...and functional!

[This message has been edited by Lonster (edited 04-13-2011).]

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Lonster
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Report this Post04-13-2011 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LonsterSend a Private Message to LonsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Check this out... goes with your wing engineering. The Gurney flap- http://www.allamericanracers.com/gurney_flap.html

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-13-2011 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the link.

We tried out a gurney flap on the wing when doing some of the CFD analysis, but decided to go without one. I guess the "reverse mud flap" carries the same name. Who knew lol.

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RWDPLZ
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Report this Post04-15-2011 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Saw this back on page 4, and thought, does this look like a face to anyone else?





^ See the resemblance?

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bnevets27
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Report this Post04-16-2011 02:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bnevets27Send a Private Message to bnevets27Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What track are you planing to do the lapping at?

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-16-2011 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Planning on taking the car to Cayuga in a few weeks hopefully!

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bnevets27
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Report this Post04-18-2011 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bnevets27Send a Private Message to bnevets27Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just stumbled across this: http://www.casc.on.ca/forum...owthread.php?t=22249 (down force sensor)
Not cheap but pertains to the work your doing with your wing.

Btw, if your interested you should come out to one of the lapping day at mostport DDT: http://www.gtfieros.com/php...topic.php?f=7&t=1608

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-18-2011 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks bnevets27, I'll check those links out.

I'll also check my availability for those lapping days. By the way, for some reason I can't get into my account on the GT Fieros site. I emailed the admin but nobody has gotten back to me :S

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randye
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Report this Post04-18-2011 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow, I had no idea you were delving into this "wing work" lately.
Very interesting stuff, and you have done some nice innovation there!
Reminds me of the Hall Chaparral CanAm 2E from back in the late 60's but you're a bit more sophisticated in your control approach

" Like previous Chaparrals, the 2E used an “automatic” transmission and did not need a clutch pedal. In its place, the Chaparral team installed a floor pedal to control the wing. With his left foot, the driver could hold the wing in a flat low-drag position when accelerating on high-speed straight sections. When cornering, the driver released the pedal, which moved the front of the wind to a downward angle. The angled wing provided added down force in the corners. It also increased drag to help slow the car. In addition, the pedal controlled the air flow in a tunnel at the front of the 2E to provide a balancing aerodynamic force on the front of the car. "

“It was time to get the wing off the car and onto the suspension. No one seemed to agree with me at the time… but I guess we changed a few minds.”

-Jim Hall, discussing the Chaparral 2E

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-18-2011).]

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bnevets27
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Report this Post04-19-2011 04:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bnevets27Send a Private Message to bnevets27Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:
I'll also check my availability for those lapping days. By the way, for some reason I can't get into my account on the GT Fieros site. I emailed the admin but nobody has gotten back to me :S


I just sent Adam (thumpr) a pm for you asking him if he get back to you/fix your account.

If you plan on going to one of those lapping days let me know. I'm going to be going to one of them, maybe two, but haven't decided which dates yet. Would be nice to get a couple fiero's out there for a day.


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doublec4
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Report this Post04-19-2011 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks Randye, I've actually had a couple of people now mention the Chaparral car to me. I had heard of it before, and the aerodynamic pioneering and ingenuity of some of the Chaparrel cars. Very interesting!

Thanks bnevets27, I received an email back from Adam and had my password reset. Account works again! I'll look into the lapping days, and I hope to get out to some this summer!

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doublec4
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Report this Post04-21-2011 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lately I've been having a weird problem with starting the car. It would be hard to start, then start and die immediately. Interior lights wouldn't come on when I opened the doors etc. At first I thought it was a loose connection at the battery, but I tried tightening it and that wouldn't help. Took the battery out, had it tested and it tested okay, but not great. Ended up investing in a new battery, the old one bit the dust I guess. All hard start problems have dissapeared. Everything back to normal

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doublec4
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Report this Post05-05-2011 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Had the car out today, tried to find where my slight oil leak is coming from. Also removed the diffuser and mounted it with some different hardware. Finally put my IMSA decals on the calipers that I got from Paul McKibbon a year ago or so:

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rourke_87_T-Top
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Report this Post05-06-2011 07:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rourke_87_T-TopClick Here to Email rourke_87_T-TopSend a Private Message to rourke_87_T-TopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The fusible link that goes to the battery, inside the plastic casing. You cannot see it because it is incapsulated, but the connections will be heavily oxidized. I cut the plastic capsule off with a box cutter and cleaned all the white powder and made a new clean connection. Adam was telling me he had the same problem recently. It will cause an intermittent electrical problem.

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doublec4
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Report this Post05-06-2011 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by rourke_87_T-Top:

The fusible link that goes to the battery, inside the plastic casing. You cannot see it because it is incapsulated, but the connections will be heavily oxidized. I cut the plastic capsule off with a box cutter and cleaned all the white powder and made a new clean connection. Adam was telling me he had the same problem recently. It will cause an intermittent electrical problem.


Thanks for the tip. If the problem arises again I'll take a look into that. For now the new battery seems to have completely solved the problem. The old one was 7-8 years old so it lasted a while I suppose (Not bad considering it doesn't see any activity in the winter and no trickle charger)

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PF Flyer
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Report this Post06-04-2011 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PF FlyerSend a Private Message to PF FlyerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Updates? Its summer time, or its your time to modify time? whats cooking for this summer?

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doublec4
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Report this Post06-08-2011 11:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

No plans as of yet. Just spent money I don't have on fixing a ball joint failure issue. Left me stranded and I needed a new control arm. Need a job too.

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doublec4
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Report this Post06-21-2011 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here is a picture of the ball joint failure I was referring to:





Just checked on the other side today.... its the same thing waiting to happen.

Looks like I'll be doing another ball joint in the next few days..

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Goldenfoot
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Report this Post06-21-2011 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GoldenfootClick Here to Email GoldenfootSend a Private Message to GoldenfootEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ouch! Glad youre ok and for the most part your car too! What exactly happened? Did the threads strip off? Normal driving? Stock ball joints or replacement?

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Stubby79
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Report this Post06-21-2011 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stubby79Send a Private Message to Stubby79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lowrider?

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doublec4
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Report this Post06-22-2011 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What happened was that the castle nut wasn't tall enough, or the hole drilled for the cotter pin was too high. This allowed the castle nut to back off. The ball joint was then free to back out a little bit and rock in the spindle. Eventually this broke off the castle nut and the ball joint completely fell out. Junk.

Moral of the story: Don't buy cheap parts from ebay. Namely World Suspensions or whatever they call themselves.

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post06-24-2011 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Chris, I have had an instance on another car of mine where the castle nut sat too low after the install. I ended up drilling a new hole for the cotter pin. I cannot remember the brand (a long time ago, and for a Mustang) but, if you ever run into that issue again, there is a fix.

That is one damning pic!

Tony

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