This came out of uhlanstan's thread located here.. WARNING! FOUL LANGUAGE/DEROGATORY TERMS AT THE LINK! You have been warned.

With the intent to avoid having a valid discussion head for the trash can because of a pointless thread, I have decided to move it here.

This is related to the Proposition 8 vote happening in California related to a ban on Gay Marriages.

I give to you the following for your consideration.

quote Originally posted by vinny: I say it sould be a majority rule. I think everything should be a majority rule. Vote on it. What ever the outcome let it be instead of bringing it back for debate unless there seems to be a clear "shift" in views. I believe in prayer in school, in GOD we trust,and am against same sex marrage and I feel that the majority does/is also. Vote on it. Stan... calm down now..If you want to do something about it then wright your senator and their senator. Be nice Vinny And I believe they shouldn't be allowed to adopt. Why confuse someone so impressionable for the benefit of your alternative lifestye.

My response in that thread before I edited it.

The US Bill of Rights guarantees the peoples of the United States the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

By saying "You should not adopt because you do not fit my idea of a normal person" you are effectively depriving the person(s) of their right to the Pursuit of Happiness.

To many people, being happy is nothing more complicated than simply raising a family at home.

For the sake of discussion, what right do you have to determine whether or not they should even adopt?

I realize you are stating your opinion, and I respect that.

Children are impressionable. But who are we to say that a gay couple cannot raise a child that is well adjusted and straight? Parenting is more than just the sex of the "parents". It is the values and morals you instill into your child(ren) during their impressionable years, and the hand with which you guide them throughout their later formative years that determines what type of person they will become. Yes, even with guidance such as this, there are those children that grow into adults with a critical "mis-wiring" of the brain that may become sociopaths or psychopaths... But for the sake of this discussion, we are not talking murderers... We are simply talking about homosexuality.


Please keep this thread free of derogatory terms. Express your opinion thoughtfully, to the point, and provide your reasonings behind your opinion.

Let's keep this one civil please.

[This message has been edited by Synthesis (edited 11-06-2008).]

I think we should be lucky to have more familes adopting kids rather than sitting in orphanages being raised by "the system"...

That said, I can see how some people might take issue with having "two dads"... 2 moms though? Hell, I'd bet half the people here were raised by two moms- - mom and grandma/aunt sue/babysitter clara....

well, I would prefer a homosexual couple over a single mom/dad raising a child.

A growing number it appears, are being raised by "Uncle Sue" and I guess that is the focus of this thread.
Millions of single parents have done an excellent job of raising their children. Didn't do too badly myself, with all 4 of mine.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-06-2008).]

I can agree with that Pyrthian.

Let's toss another thing into the mix here then...

Aside from the obvious differences between a gay couple, and an extended family with multiple same-sex members helping to raise a child (such as in Ryan.Hess' post above), how is raising a child any different between the two?

You can have two mother figures in a child's life with an extended family. Same as you could have two father figures.

How is it any different than a child being raised by a gay couple?

As long as there is a warm nurturing home filled with love for one another, then the child SHOULD for all intents and purposes become a well grounded individual.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, I would prefer a homosexual couple over a single mom/dad raising a child.

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: I can agree with that Pyrthian.

You are entitled to your opinion, but for the record, would you tell me how many children you each have personally raised?

Can you spell I-N-D-O-C-T-R-I-N-A-T-I-O-N ?
No, I would not allow it.
Where would these kids come from ? Ah, from a man and a woman, Hmmm.

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: Children are impressionable. But who are we to say that a gay couple cannot raise a child that is well adjusted and straight? Parenting is more than just the sex of the "parents". It is the values and morals you instill into your child(ren) during their impressionable years, and the hand with which you guide them throughout their later formative years that determines what type of person they will become.

This depends onm whether you think all homosexuals were born as they are, or were impressioned or chose to be homosexual. I think there are some in the second category. I think growing up in that atmosphere will have a high probablility of failing to do what you said.

Of course homosexual couples should be able to adopt and raise a family. There are adoption agencies that cater to them. I don't have a problem with that.

What I do believe is that there is a difference between the sexes. Men are very different from women. Because of that, I believe that heterosexual couples should have preference over homosexual couples. If all other things are equal, a child should have both a mother and father.

What happens when marriage is redefined to allow homosexuals to marry is that there is no longer a distinction between a heterosexual marriage and a homosexual marriage. This means you can no longer giver preference to heterosexual couples. Adoption agencies that are religiously based are forced to close their doors just like Catholic Charities had to in Massechusetts:

http://www.boston.com/news/...tate_ends_adoptions/

love, stability & consistancy is the key

nothing wrecks a young kid like the leaving of a parent. and - the next killer is a dating parent while the kid is in puberty.

just speaking from observation - the easiest girls to "get with" are those without dads
cant speak for guys - but I got assumptions there as well

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: love, stability & consistancy is the key nothing wrecks a young kid like the leaving of a parent. and - the next killer is a dating parent while the kid is in puberty.

So....homosexuals never have failed relationships ?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You are entitled to your opinion, but for the record, would you tell me how many children you each have personally raised?

just one.

look, there are no absolutes. if there was a formula - everything would be solved, wouldnt it?

so, are you saying you rasied these 4 children completely by yourself, or did you have help from supportive, consistant & loving friends & family? I'd expect the latter. or, was one of them old enough to babysit the others? or are you rich enough to have a nanny do it? there are endless combinations.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You are entitled to your opinion, but for the record, would you tell me how many children you each have personally raised?

3.

There is nothing wrong with single parenting of children, as long as the parent has the time to devote to the children. I congratulate you for raising your children on your own, and living to tell about it.

My kids aren't done yet though. My oldest is 9, and my twins are 7.

Gee I touched a nerve? For small children there are more willing straight married couples seeking adoption that there are children to be adopted. The way the country is now there are also many many single parent homes.............its called divorce. Older children have it harder. Most who want to adopt, straight or not, want a younger child. Sorry thats the way it is.

Vinny

quote Originally posted by vinny: Gee I touched a nerve? For small children there are more willing straight married couples seeking adoption that there are children to be adopted. The way the country is now there are also many many single parent homes.............its called divorce. Older children have it harder. Most who want to adopt, straight or not, want a younger child. Sorry thats the way it is. Vinny

No, no nerve touched... I just felt it deserved it's own topic.

Yes, many who seek adoption seek younger children. Does this mean that a gay couple is any better than a straight couple?

And we can safely leave out single parent adoptions, as 99% of adoption agencies will not accept a single parent application.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: just one. look, there are no absolutes. if there was a formula - everything would be solved, wouldnt it?

Good to have kept that in mind before you posted generalizations regarding single parenting.

quote so, are you saying you rasied these 4 children completely by yourself, or did you have help from supportive, consistant & loving friends & family? I'd expect the latter. or, was one of them old enough to babysit the others? or are you rich enough to have a nanny do it? there are endless combinations.

You might expect it, but I was on the lower end of those possible combinations. Living hundreds of miles from our nearest family. Had no time for friends--except those of my kids, and precious little for them--and none for myself. Put my own life on hold for about 10 years to carry out my #1 responsibility. Held 2 jobs most of the time, and, the eldest of my children did most of the babysitting--just as the eldest does in most 2 parent households, since a growing # of modern households now have both parents working. No, I was not rich and a nanny was way way out of the question. Yes, I had a few friends who sometimes gave me some help, and advise, just as happens in 2 parent families, occassionally taking the kids somewhere for the day to give me a break, but most of our support came from my faith in God to get us thru. My employers worked around my schedule a lot of times, sometimes allowing me to bring the kids in to my workplace.
I was not perfect at it by any means, but youngest is now in his 30s, and I am now grandfather of 7 with #8 on it's way. Or is it #9?? Oh yeah- #8 & 9 on their way.


Anyway--you may now return to the topic discussion........

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: Does this mean that a gay couple is any better than a straight couple?

Since you are generalizing, I will too.
The answer is no.
Your topic is a question. I have one of my own.
Why would they want to ?

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You might expect it, but I was on the lower end of those possible combinations. Living hundreds of miles from our nearest family. Had no time for friends--except those of my kids, and precious little for them--and none for myself. Put my own life on hold for about 10 years to carry out my #1 responsibility. Held 2 jobs most of the time, and, the eldest of my children did most of the babysitting--just as the eldest does in most 2 parent households, since a growing # of modern households now have both parents working. No, I was not rich and a nanny was way way out of the question. Yes, I had a few friends who sometimes gave me some help, and advise, just as happens in 2 parent families, occassionally taking the kids somewhere for the day to give me a break, but most of our support came from my faith in God to get us thru. My employers worked around my schedule a lot of times, sometimes allowing me to bring the kids in to my workplace. I was not perfect at it by any means, but youngest is now in his 30s, and I am now grandfather of 7 with #8 on it's way. Or is it #9?? Oh yeah- #8 & 9 on their way. Anyway--you may now return to the topic discussion........

^ GOOD STUFF.

yes, my wife was the eldest daughter, who ended up raising her 2 younger sisters.
generilzations are just that. I can line up endless lousy examples to your one great example.
and, I am sure you have seen it as well.

but - I expect this also has to do with the fact you dont see the good examples - because they are way to busy doing the right thing.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 11-06-2008).]

I'll keep it simple....

I VOTE NO!

every person is entitled to their opinion, and that is mine.

I'm glad I wasn't stepping on toes with what I said. This is a very critical forum and it's hard to discuss matters of opinion without getting the red bar treatment (as seen by so many others ratings). I'm not a politition and I don't follow politics much as I should. I'm not a HOLY ROLLER either. This is where I stand.

I am a saved Christian man, and sinner
If its in the Bible I believe even if I don't understand.
I try to treat people fair even if I know they are wrong.
I hate no person. Not even democrates or homosexuals or ...............anyone.
I drink beer and wine, I speed and talk dirty, I get mad......................sinner

Homosexuality is wrong and should not be rewarded and that is the end. Too adopt is a reward and to marry is also. If you don't believe me, read the Bible.

In GOD we trust,

Vinny

[This message has been edited by vinny (edited 11-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by vinny: I'm glad I wasn't stepping on toes with what I said. This is a very critical forum and it's hard to discuss matters of opinion without getting the red bar treatment (as seen by so many others ratings). I'm not a politition and I don't follow politics much as I should. I'm not a HOLY ROLLER either. This is where I stand. I am a saved Christian man, and sinner If its in the Bible I believe even if I don't understand. I try to treat people fair even if I know they are wrong. I hate no person. Not even democrates or homosexuals or ...............anyone. I drink beer and wine, I speed and talk dirty, I get mad......................sinner Homosexuality is wrong and that is the end. If you don't believe me, read the Bible. In GOD we trust, Vinny

so is vanity, greed, etc etc - should these folk be allowed to raise children?
as far as I know, ALL men have sin. does this mean NOONE can raise children?

If you are talking about raising your kids right it is my opinion that day care is bad. Kids should eb raised by their parents. Now you can argue that it isn't possible in todays budget crunch world. but it is. You have to live at a much lower means. There was a time that there was no day care.
-
There are lots of reasons a man and a woman make teh best parents, they have different mindsets, the way they parent compliments eachother, it is that way for a reason.

You can argue "well most hetero marriages result in divorce" that is a null argument having nothing to do with raising kids. It is almost always because they got married for the wrong reasons, and had the wrong things in mind about marriage. Also the more it happnes the more bad examples the kids are raised with, a chain reaction.

Since we are on the subject of homosexuality and families...I wonder

Both myself and my wife are straight, and we would want our children be straight also (which they are).

Would homosexual couples want their children to be homosexual?

The way the world is now? Maybe we shoudn't have kids. The Bible also says to bare fruit and multiply. Homosexuals cannot.

[This message has been edited by vinny (edited 11-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by vinny: The way the world is now? Maybe we shoudn't have kids. The Bible also says to bare fruit and multiply. Homosexuals cannot.

they sure can - just not with each other

No sence in arguing. You'll understand one day.

Good luck

As an adopted child I will say no.
I don't know about the USA but over here there is waiting lists to adopt.
Those waiting lists should't have gays added to the list.
The reason many married couples adopt is because for medical reasons they cant have children.
Not being able to have children because nature wouldn't allow it doesn't count.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: If you are talking about raising your kids right it is my opinion that day care is bad. Kids should eb raised by their parents. Now you can argue that it isn't possible in todays budget crunch world. but it is. You have to live at a much lower means. There was a time that there was no day care. - There are lots of reasons a man and a woman make teh best parents, they have different mindsets, the way they parent compliments eachother, it is that way for a reason. You can argue "well most hetero marriages result in divorce" that is a null argument having nothing to do with raising kids. It is almost always because they got married for the wrong reasons, and had the wrong things in mind about marriage. Also the more it happnes the more bad examples the kids are raised with, a chain reaction.

YES YES

this is actually something that needs fixing more than ANY other issue.
WTF have we done to ourselves? why with all these nifty gadgets & technology - do we now need MORE people in the workforce than ever? you'd think with washing machines, computers, microwaves - etc etc etc we'd be able to have EASILY have a parent stay at home.

An ex employer once told me:
"They say they can't reproduce--but they gotta be. There's more of them every year."
He was old, and this was about the time it became more socially possible for gays to 'come out' so to speak.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You are entitled to your opinion, but for the record, would you tell me how many children you each have personally raised?

I agree. I would perfer to see a child raised by a single parent then raised thinking behavior like what he/she views the "parents" doing as right.. It wrong plain and simple..


I was raised by a single mother and know of a guy who I went to school with that was raised by his mom and her "friend".. he is currently in prison for abuse related charges where he beat a woman to near death.. Stable quality dual parent home he was brought up in sure lead him to know the difference between right and wrong...


Vinny.. you got a +

[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 11-06-2008).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: All that stuff costs a lot of money. Expect the wife to stay home--raise kids and wash the clothes on a rock down by the creek? Good luck with that.

It can be done, on ONE five figure income. Myself and my wife are proof (3 children, and we always had a washing machine so no need to find a rock).

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: It can be done, on ONE five figure income. Myself and my wife are proof (3 children, and we always had a washing machine so no need to find a rock).

It can easily be done.. my wifes a stay at home mom as well.

quote Originally posted by vinny:... Homosexuality is wrong and that is the end. If you don't believe me, read the Bible. In GOD we trust, Vinny

It is good to hear some one say it, Vinny. So many of our problems could be solved if we would just use a set of absolutes in our judgement rather than so much 'gray area' thinking.

quote Originally posted by vinny: Homosexuality is wrong and that is the end. If you don't believe me, read the Bible.

If that's your argument, then read the part of the Bible that says we are all born in sin. By your logic, that means no one should be allowed to have children.
Yet the Bible commands you to go forth and multiply.

There are many things in the Bible which appear contradictory. When you take select passages out of context, you can make them appear to mean almost anything.

Sin is wrong, but we are ALL sinners. (as you said)
If we're all sinners, then who should be allowed to raise children?

Homosexuality is wrong, according to the Bible.
So are multitudes of other things that parents do every day - according to the Bible.

Jesus taught love above all else.

I thought the new testament "overwrote" the old?... Or are we reverting to the old testament for laws/punishment against homosexuality only now?

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: So many of our problems could be solved if we would just use a set of absolutes in our judgement rather than so much 'gray area' thinking.

Fixed it for you.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: If that's your argument, then read the part of the Bible that says we are all born in sin. By your logic, that means no one should be allowed to have children. Yet the Bible commands you to go forth and multiply. There are many things in the Bible which appear contradictory. When you take select passages out of context, you can make them appear to mean almost anything. Sin is wrong, but we are ALL sinners. (as you said) If we're all sinners, then who should be allowed to raise children? Homosexuality is wrong, according to the Bible. So are multitudes of other things that parents do every day - according to the Bible. Jesus taught love above all else.

I didn't take his statement,

quote Originally posted by vinny: The way the world is now? Maybe we shoudn't have kids. The Bible also says to bare fruit and multiply. Homosexuals cannot.

to mean that homosexuals shouldn't have children, rather, they couldn't.

Edit to add: My thoughts are that they cant and they shouldn't[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 11-06-2008).]