He's not trying to destroy unions. Get your facts straight. Do your own research and stop listening to the union leaders and you'll be suprised at the truth. He's handling the state just like he did Milwaukee County when he was my County Executive. He didn't break any unions....he did what was necessary to balance his budget. He tried to negotiate with the Parks Department union because there was a shortfall in the budget and asked for wage concessions. If wage concessions were not offered then he would have to lay off workers. The union refused to negotiate. County Executive Walker then laid off workers as he stuck to his guns....just as the union officials did. But he got the budgets under control. That was his job. Unions don't want to negotiate? There are consequences....and they are necessary. This isn't a game.
During his campaign he said he was going to balance the state budget and the state unions were one of his focuses. He has already stated he supports private unions because they are dealing with their employers as necessary. Harley-Davidson, Mercury Marine, Sub-Zero.....the companies negotiated with the unions and struck their deals. The private unions are not a problem for the State of Wisconsin and Governor Scott Walker isn't involving private unions. The private unions are negotiating and compromising. The public unions are not. The state unions have been 'negotiating' for almost 2 years over healthcare and pension concessions and they have been refusing to budge. Now that Governor Walker is removing collective bargaining the unions are squealing and now that THEIR backs are to the wall they'll deal. So much for negotiating in good faith. Too late. The unions had their chance. They pushed the State of Wisconsin into a corner and now the State will respond.
Do your homework. I'm called names as a Republican. I expect an apology. My best interest and the 85% of Wisconsinites that are not in the public sector unions have voted to get the balance the budget and most support Governor Scott Walker and his budget-repair bill. I do not want to see anyone laid off but if this isn't handled today then state employees will lose thier jobs.
I've heard rumors that the state employuee unions cannot change their contribution amounts because of State law. Without the budget repair bill passing, there cannot be a change in the employees contrubution in healthcare or pension payments. So, if Governor Walker were to agree to the 'negotiations' of accepting the concessions the unions are talking about it would not happen because of that State law. The unions saying that they are conceding is bogus....and it's a trick to keep the bebefits at the current levels. You may want to look into that and let us all know if that's true or not.
I do want to ask, though. How much of MY income is enough so state workers can have nice pensions and pay little for their healthcare?
Ill countinue saying it if i feel like it sir. I have nothing to lose and will speak my mind freely. Oh wait that is me being DEMOCRATIC AND NOT A NAZI REPUBLICAN
Ha ha. Isn't it cute how kids say the darnest things?
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02:01 PM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5557 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
Have any of you ever walked in 3 feet of snow for 8.5 hours and still done your job? Walked in 90+* weather, been chased by Rottweilers, and had to deal with hurricane force wind slapping you in the face with rain and hail? Wouldn't YOU want to be paid a decent wage to do this obviously needed job? I sure as heck would! Then again i would be happy with a 10 an hour job as long as i came home everyday safe and sound to my family, enjoyed a meal and maybe played a game or took a walk hand in hand with the missus.
And to also add what everyone else is thinking: It amuses me to no end how you have the audicty to say that because you have to walk around in cold weather and run into the occasional snarky canine while putting in time at your job that you have it more difficult than everyone else. Give me a fricking break! You deliver the ****ing mail. If you actually had to do a job where you had to engage your brain or deal with real stress you probably wouldn't last a week, because you know, you are so "edgy, cool, and non-conforming". You are just like our Posties here who make far and above the average income, yet still find it necessary to ***** and moan about how hard they have it, having to walk around and DROP OFF THE BLOODY MAIL. Meanwhile, those of us who pay your salary through our taxes, and have real jobs with real stress, have to bite our tongue and listen to your tripe. You are exactly the reason why people hate unions. Thank you for making our point with your ignoranant ramblings.
Sincerely, A Conservative Canadian Prick
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-01-2011).]
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02:13 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
You are 19 years old. Wow. You know it all. Buy your own house. Try to live the American Dream. Get a grip on reality. You call me names and I struggle to survive every day. You don't know what it means to struggle yet. I have the right to support our Governor just as much as you have the right to oppose him. You expect that your 'side' is right and my 'side' is wrong. Well, that's why we have elections. When you are older you may understand that ( or maybe not ). You want to argue fact? Fine....use facts. Don't you dare call me names and belittle me just because you think you know it all.
Mark
Oh i know what it is like to struggle. I am currently raising my 3 younger sisters because our mother is an abusive lying snipe that burned our house down around us, nearly killing us just because she didnt want us to let the secret of her abuse out and make her look bad. So yeah, i dont own a house, and apparently dont struggle enough to be qualified for any more state help with medical bills and the like. And i will not apologize to you for calling Republicans names. The Republican side blasted all of the Democrat runners the last election and used Doyle as a prime excuse as a reason to vote Republican. Do i agree with the way Doyle ran Wi? No, was i old enough to vote him into office? Obviously not as at the time i think i was still in Grade school. And no, i do not think i know it all. I do know alot, perhaps even more than you do in certain fields, I even bet i could Weld a box around you faster than you could around me, yet you could probably do something similar to me that i would have no idea of how to do. And the best part of being and American citizen is the fact that im allowed to call you names and belittle you. Not that i am doing that to YOU specifiilacly. im calling the Republican party these names. So in effect i see your argument as null and void.
I see i have now 63 ratings. This is good, prove to me that PFF isnt a place for bigots and the like.
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02:17 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
And to also add what everyone else is thinking: It amuses me to no end how you have the audicty to say that because you have to walk around in cold weather and run into the occasional snarky canine while putting in time at your job that you have it more difficult than everyone else. Give me a fricking break! You deliver the ****ing mail. If you actually had to do a job where you had to engage your brain or deal with real stress you probably wouldn't last a week, because you know, you are so "edgy, cool, and non-conforming". You are just like our Posties here who make far and above the average income, yet still find it necessary to ***** and moan about how hard they have it, having to walk around and DROP OFF THE BLOODY MAIL. Meanwhile, those of us who pay your salary through our taxes, and have real jobs with real stress, have to bite our tongue and listen to your tripe. You are exactly the reason why people hate unions. Thank you for making our point with your ignoranant ramblings.
Sincerely, A Conservative Canadian Prick
I didn't say i delivered mail, i sorted it, and if you haven't done the job then you have no place to speak. Its like me saying that the road asphalt worker is getting paid too much to do his job. I have no idea how to operate an asphalt laying machine and by saying that he is not thinking hard enough to get the pay he is getting is bigoted and wrong. It seems that when one person speaks out against the rest of the flock here that ALL the crazies come out of the woodwork to crucify the person and force them into the "quiet corner"
I didn't say i delivered mail, i sorted it, and if you haven't done the job then you have no place to speak. Its like me saying that the road asphalt worker is getting paid too much to do his job. I have no idea how to operate an asphalt laying machine and by saying that he is not thinking hard enough to get the pay he is getting is bigoted and wrong. It seems that when one person speaks out against the rest of the flock here that ALL the crazies come out of the woodwork to crucify the person and force them into the "quiet corner"
Kids need to be seen and not heard. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Like that? It was a generalization. Wasn't against you, just everybody like you.
I didn't say i delivered mail, i sorted it, and if you haven't done the job then you have no place to speak. Its like me saying that the road asphalt worker is getting paid too much to do his job. I have no idea how to operate an asphalt laying machine and by saying that he is not thinking hard enough to get the pay he is getting is bigoted and wrong. It seems that when one person speaks out against the rest of the flock here that ALL the crazies come out of the woodwork to crucify the person and force them into the "quiet corner"
Or you could ask yourself the question, if ALL the crazies are against you, who is really the crazy one? Ever considered that the reason your find yourself a minority in this discussion is because you lack the common sense and experience of the so called "Flock" you choose to berate? Oh that's right, you're "an edgy, hip, political warrior" who chooses to not to see such things...
If you do decide to go into politics, please PLEASE PLEASE run under the Democratic banner. You would be like the gift that keeps on giving for the Repub "Nazis".
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-01-2011).]
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02:35 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
MADISON — A new poll finds more Americans back Wisconsin’s public employee unions than Republican Gov. Scott Walker in the dispute over collective bargaining powers.
A poll from Pew Research Center released Monday says 42 percent of adults surveyed sided with the unions, while 31 percent sided with Walker. Others backed neither side or didn’t know. The poll of 1,009 adults has a margin of error of 4 percentage points.
Meanwhile, a New York Times/CBS poll found 60 percent of adults surveyed oppose efforts to weaken public employee union members’ rights to collectively negotiate the terms of their employment. Thirty-three percent support such efforts.
The nationwide telephone poll of 984 adults has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
Both polls were conducted Feb. 24-27.
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02:37 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
And then this: Poll: Majority of Americans Oppose Cutting Rights of Public Employee Unions
quote
An overwhelming majority of Americans oppose taking away some of the collective bargaining rights that public employee unions now have and almost as many oppose cutting the pay or benefits of those workers, according to a nationwide New York Times/CBS News poll conducted Feb. 24-27.
The bargaining rights issue has taken center stage in Wisconsin, where pro-union demonstrators continue to sit in at the statehouse, and in Ohio, where Democrats and Republicans are battling over it in the state Legislature. In both states, Republicans are pushing measures that would eliminate collective bargaining over benefits, like health care and pensions, and limit such bargaining to wages only.
Sixty percent of those surveyed strongly or somewhat strongly opposed taking away some bargaining rights, while 33 percent somewhat or strongly favored doing so, with 7 percent undecided. Thirty-eight percent put themselves in the "strongly opposed" column.
The Times said a slim majority of Republicans backed taking away some rights, but big majorities of Democrats and independents opposed doing so.
Fifty-six percent somewhat or strongly opposed cutting pay or benefits of public employees, while 37 percent favored such action, with 7 percent undecided.
Americans were roughly split on the question of whether governors were pushing collective bargaining restrictions for political reasons or to reduce deficits. Forty-five percent believed their motive was reducing deficits, while 41 percent said it was too weaken unions.
The public also had mixed reactions to whether police and firefighters should be able to retire after 25 years even if they were in their 40s and 50s. Forty-nine percent said they should be allowed to do so, while 44 percent said they shouldn't, with 6 percent undecided.
A separate poll, conducted Feb. 24-27 by the Pew Research Center, found that Americans sided with the public employee unions over Wisconsin's Republican governor, Scott Walker, on the collective bargaining issue by 42 percent to 31 percent, with 9 percent siding with neither and 18 percent undecided.
A majority of Republicans sided with Walker, while more than two-thirds of Democrats backed the unions. Independents were split, with a slight plurality favoring the unions. Those surveyed who had incomes of less than $75,000 a year favored the unions by a large margin, while people earning above $75,000 sided with Walker by a small margin that was within the poll's margin of error.
Thirty-six percent said the salaries and benefits of most public employees were "about right," 26 percent said they were too high and 25 percent said they were too low, with 9 percent answering "depends" and 4 percent undecided.
Despite the support for public employee unions on collective bargaining rights, labor unions in general did not get a strong vote of support from the public. Thirty-three percent viewed them favorably, 25 percent had an unfavorable opinion and the rest were undecided or hadn't heard enough about them.
Thirty-seven percent said labor unions had too much influence, 19 percent said they had too little, 29 percent said they had the right amount and the rest were undecided. In what was perhaps a reflection of how labor's clout has lessened during the last decades, the 37 percent who currently believe it had too much influence was way down from the 60 percent in a 1981 poll.
And this is from the article, the totals of the poll broken down. Hmm what do i see here? A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT TO KEEP UNIONS AND NOT SIDE WITH REPUBLICANS:
[This message has been edited by Ramsespride (edited 03-01-2011).]
You really need to drop the text chat BS when trying to prove a point. I have a 12 year old cousin that does the same thing, thankfully she is wise enough to know when to use it, and when not to.
The New York Times is Union, and CBS is Union. I put two and two together when it said it was a poll done by The New York Times, and CBS.
Brad
ahhh but that poll wasnt done by CBS or TNYT. It was done by the PEW research center. CBS and TYNT just reported the findings as well as a few other media sources. I havent seen it on Fox yet tho.
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03:13 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Originally posted by Ramsespride: Have any of you ever walked in 3 feet of snow for 8.5 hours and still done your job? Walked in 90+* weather,
Here's where I work, granted I dont have to work in the meltshop, but the principle remains. *130 in the summer in flame resistant clothing and aluminum suits, and pretty much whatever the outdoor tempature is in the winter. Also, everything is covered in either 'steel dust' or grease, and every 15 minutes there is a crane overhead with a 20 ton bucket of steel to drop into the furnace, that or a 80 ton ladle of molten steel.
Yea, that guys not a union member... He seems okay with it. Actually thats a pretty tame picture, just the first decent one I came across.
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03:16 PM
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
He's not trying to destroy unions. Get your facts straight. Do your own research and stop listening to the union leaders and you'll be suprised at the truth. He's handling the state just like he did Milwaukee County when he was my County Executive. He didn't break any unions....he did what was necessary to balance his budget. He tried to negotiate with the Parks Department union because there was a shortfall in the budget and asked for wage concessions. If wage concessions were not offered then he would have to lay off workers. The union refused to negotiate. County Executive Walker then laid off workers as he stuck to his guns....just as the union officials did. But he got the budgets under control. That was his job. Unions don't want to negotiate? There are consequences....and they are necessary. This isn't a game.
During his campaign he said he was going to balance the state budget and the state unions were one of his focuses. He has already stated he supports private unions because they are dealing with their employers as necessary. Harley-Davidson, Mercury Marine, Sub-Zero.....the companies negotiated with the unions and struck their deals. The private unions are not a problem for the State of Wisconsin and Governor Scott Walker isn't involving private unions. The private unions are negotiating and compromising. The public unions are not. The state unions have been 'negotiating' for almost 2 years over healthcare and pension concessions and they have been refusing to budge. Now that Governor Walker is removing collective bargaining the unions are squealing and now that THEIR backs are to the wall they'll deal. So much for negotiating in good faith. Too late. The unions had their chance. They pushed the State of Wisconsin into a corner and now the State will respond.
Do your homework. I'm called names as a Republican. I expect an apology. My best interest and the 85% of Wisconsinites that are not in the public sector unions have voted to get the balance the budget and most support Governor Scott Walker and his budget-repair bill. I do not want to see anyone laid off but if this isn't handled today then state employees will lose thier jobs.
I've heard rumors that the state employuee unions cannot change their contribution amounts because of State law. Without the budget repair bill passing, there cannot be a change in the employees contrubution in healthcare or pension payments. So, if Governor Walker were to agree to the 'negotiations' of accepting the concessions the unions are talking about it would not happen because of that State law. The unions saying that they are conceding is bogus....and it's a trick to keep the bebefits at the current levels. You may want to look into that and let us all know if that's true or not.
I do want to ask, though. How much of MY income is enough so state workers can have nice pensions and pay little for their healthcare?
Mark
I listened to his phone conversation. That was eye-opening. And his staffers are the ones saying he acts like a tyrant, and lies to them. HIS OWN STAFFERS.
How about you start listening to voces other than Fox.
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03:16 PM
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
What about the majority that voted for Walker to do just this?
You remember the majority right? They are the ones that are out working while the Union thugs are out rioting.
I'm still waiting to find out if I can keep half my wealth here.
Brad
as I said in a previous post...
You say you support Walker; did he announce during his campaign that he would be trying to destroy unions, and tricking Dems into helping him, and lying to his own staff? If he had, would you stll have supported him? If so, why?
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03:19 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
Here's where I work, granted I dont have to work in the meltshop, but the principle remains. *130 in the summer in flame resistant clothing and aluminum suits, and pretty much whatever the outdoor tempature is in the winter. Also, everything is covered in either 'steel dust' or grease, and every 15 minutes there is a crane overhead with a 20 ton bucket of steel to drop into the furnace, that or a 80 ton ladle of molten steel.
Yea, that guys not a union member... He seems okay with it. Actually thats a pretty tame picture, just the first decent one I came across.
Dude can come to work with you for a day? I have always wanted to go to a steel plant and see how its done in person, having been welding since i was about 9 i have wondered alot how its made. People dont get that it starts out as one thing, then after a few transformations it turns into the muffler i put on or the pipe i weld in or the fender i welded the rust holes in.
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03:21 PM
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
Dude can come to work with you for a day? I have always wanted to go to a steel plant and see how its done in person, having been welding since i was about 9 i have wondered alot how its made. People dont get that it starts out as one thing, then after a few transformations it turns into the muffler i put on or the pipe i weld in or the fender i welded the rust holes in.
Heres a better one, while I did pull this off google, the first picture is our actual plant here. Three or four of those buckets make up one batch in the furnace.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 03-01-2011).]
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03:32 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
Heres a better one, while I did pull this off google, its our actual plant here. Three or four of those buckets make up one batch in the furnace.
I think its cuz of that scene from the 2nd Terminator when they are melting the bad Terminator. I wonder what happens to a human when they fall in there. I would imagine whatever does happen it wouldnt hurt, atleast not for long
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03:33 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I think its cuz of that scene from the 2nd Terminator when they are melting the bad Terminator. I wonder what happens to a human when they fall in there. I would imagine whatever does happen it wouldnt hurt, atleast not for long
They become a billet. Everything that goes into the furnace comes out a billet lol. Great way to dispose of any... 'unwanted' objects for sure. Unfortunately the days of chucking old hard drives and tapes in there are past, they are too enviromentally concerned now, even though there is nothing in either of those that is harmful. We still melt guns for the police though. Eviromental concerns are second only to saftey here.
The roll mill is equally impressive, where they heat the 6" x 6" x 20 ft billet back to red hot, then roll it into rebar, ends up about 1/2" in diameter shooting down the finishing bed at like 30 MPH still red hot.
Not going to mess this thread up with unrelated pictures and videos, but this is the furnace. The entire building shakes when its running. Quite cool
Another Edit: Haha, actually the entire front office just shook from a 'wet charge' where there is enough water \ ice in the scrap dumped in to cause a small steam explosion. Not dangerous as everyone is off the floor or behind protection during charging, but impressive since our office is a good 200 yards from the furnace.
Go to about 15 seconds in, then complain to me about walking around in the snow. And everything these guys do is extremely physical out there, not to mention there is a lot of knowlege and brainwork as to heat times, chemicals additions, power levels, etc.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 03-01-2011).]
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03:39 PM
starlightcoupe Member
Posts: 1767 From: Third World Country, OR Registered: Oct 2009
Ah, yes - Jazzman. Prince of Civility. Want me to dig up some of your more repugnant posts? Oh wait, I can't - because you are too much of a coward to stand by what you have said in the past and have gone back and edited out most of your BS from the forum archives. But talking of civility, I guess this is what passes for such according to an individual such as yourself with their finely tuned moral compass. After calling other forum members "Ignorant pricks", equating them with Nazi's based on their political leanings, you then go on and praise him saying:
quote
I also appreciate and respect the fact that you've been civil and haven't resorted to personal attacks, innuendo, and other rancorous means to communicate your opinion.
So let me get this straight - it's OK for a liberal to insult conservative minded folk because it's their god given right to freedom of speech, but when we stand our ground in the face of such ignorance we are then uncivil? Correct?
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-01-2011).]
To a union-hater/basher, everything looks like a union, just like everything looks like a nail to a hammer.
quote
Originally posted by ramsespride:
Meanwhile, a New York Times/CBS poll found 60 percent of adults surveyed oppose efforts to weaken public employee union members’ rights to collectively negotiate the terms of their employment. Thirty-three percent support such efforts.
Brad gave his reasoning behind it.
quote
Originally posted by twofatguys: The New York Times is Union, and CBS is Union. I put two and two together when it said it was a poll done by The New York Times, and CBS.
oh, and
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
Civility? Never too late to stop behaving like ^
You do realize that he was just taking on the title that he was given by one of the "civil" posters in this thread?
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04:14 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
COMMENTARY | Recent events in Wisconsin illustrate a pernicious characteristic of labor unions, especially those which comprise public employees -- a sense of entitlement coupled with the ability to shake down those who sign the checks.
Wisconsin, along with other states like Indiana and Ohio, have found that labor costs for state employees have driven the explosion of state budget deficits. They have moved to curb those costs and also the power of unions to drive up those costs by making demands of the public purse; in Wisconsin, for example, it's for inflated benefit packages.
The unions are having none of it. Along with their allies in the Democratic Party, they are using every tactic, fair and foul, to deny the will of the freely elected governments of states like Wisconsin.
The problem with labor unions in modern America is that they have priced themselves out of the labor market for the most part. The power of collective bargaining, along with the support of the Democratic Party, has caused heavily unionized industries in America, such as the automobiles and steel, to go into a decline. Corporations that find labor costs too onerous have decided to move a lot of their operations off shore. It does no good for an employee of a car company or a steel mill if his union has gotten him a fat salary and benefit package only to find that his job has been shipped to Mexico or Thailand.
Worse, from a labor union member's perspective, industries that have prospered in America tend now to be located in right-to-work states in the South. The automobile industry, moribund and propped up by bailouts in its traditional venue in the Rustbelt, thrives in Toyota and BMW factories in Sunbelt states.
The effect of public sector unions is even more pernicious. Private-sector companies have the option of moving off shore or going out of business. State and local governments have to remain open for business, no matter how generous compensation packages are for their employees.
A vicious cycle used to exist, before a lot of states like Wisconsin voted in conservative Republicans. Democratic-run state governments would negotiate generous packages for their employees, confident in the notion that they would be able to raise enough taxes to pay for them. In return, the public-sector unions would support the same Democrats with money and muscle, keeping them in office.
The problem is that the money ran out. Over-taxed businesses and people fled states such as Wisconsin to business-friendly states such as Texas, eroding the tax base. Some states, like California and Illinois, have just tried to jack up more taxes, causing more businesses and people to leave, sending the state finances into a death spiral.
Wisconsin, as well as states like Indiana and Ohio, is finally trying to bite the bullet and cut spending. Instead of accepting a slight diminution of their power for the greater good, the public sector unions in these states are rebelling. What are left of the Democrats has thrown in their support, even going so far as to have lawmakers flee the states to prevent action on the measures.
This will end either one of two ways: The unions win, in which case the states go bankrupt. Or the states win, in which case they may all go right to work and there will be no public-sector unions.
Nov 09 2010, New York — In the recent blowup over the release of teacher ratings, the United Federation of Teachers couldn't even rely on the Democratic White House for support.
Education Secretary Arne Duncan sided with the city - the latest blow to the once-mighty union, which has seen public support dwindle and has been forced to make concessions unthinkable just a few years ago.
Teachers unions were painted as villains in the high-profile education documentary "Waiting for Superman."
And the competition for millions of dollars in federal Race to the Top funds promoted reforms traditionally opposed by the unions, like charter schools and teacher evaluations linked to test scores.
"Public sentiment clearly has shifted in favor of reform and accountability and the union has had to adjust," said Schools Chancellor Joel Klein.
Although some observers applaud the UFT for changing with the times, others suggest the compromises are eating away at its power.
"Definitely, the union is much weaker," said Sol Stern of the Manhattan Institute, often a critic of both the union and the Bloomberg administration. "It's a fad - the union is the obstacle to school reform."
Other critics say the union hasn't necessarily lost power but is under attack.
"I think it's a more controversial force. I don't think it's less of a force," said Kathy Wylde, CEO of the Partnership for New York City and a supporter of merit pay and eliminating tenure. "Is there a demonization of the teachers union? Yes."
Education expert Diane Ravitch points to a nationwide movement against the unions, starting at the White House, which supported the firing of the entire staff of a Rhode Island high school.
"President Obama and Secretary Duncan have undercut the political power of teachers unions and made common cause with their critics, to the point of demoralizing many, many teachers, not just their unions, across the nation," she said.
Union supporters note that the UFT has won 43% raises since the mayor was elected - a substantial victory.
UFT President Michael Mulgrew argues the Bloomberg administration's approach to reform has strengthened the union by aligning teachers with parents and community groups.
"Education's at a major crossroads," he said.
"It is our belief that teachers should be the ones leading the change. Our battle is to make sure schools don't get turned into test prep factories."
And he insists the union is still politically powerful, with candidates seeking endorsements and advocates asking for help in securing policy changes. Mulgrew also said that he got a good deal for teachers in the Race to the Top legislation.
Although other states made test scores count for 50% of teacher evaluations, New York State test results account for 25% of evaluations, thanks to UFT clout.
Even some of teachers unions' fiercest critics agree it's much too early to write their epitaph.
"Having witnessed the defeat of [D.C.] Mayor Adrian Fenty and the successful lawsuit against school closings in New York City, it's crystal-clear that the union is still plenty powerful," said Eva Moskowitz, founder and chief executive officer of the Success Charter Network.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-01-2011).]
You say you support Walker; did he announce during his campaign that he would be trying to destroy unions, and tricking Dems into helping him, and lying to his own staff? If he had, would you stll have supported him? If so, why?
quote
Walker budget calls on county workers to sacrifice Union leader slams proposed budget
By Steve Schultze of the Journal Sentinel
Sept. 30, 2010 By focusing changes in his 2011 budget on a push to wrestle expensive concessions from union workers, Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker limits the likely controversies to pop up in the remaining weeks before the Nov. 2 election.
Walker, the Republican candidate for governor, leans heavily on union workers and retirees to help him avoid difficult program cuts and still reduce the tax levy.
His $1.3 billion budget is down 10%, while the portion paid by property taxes would drop by $1 million - or 0.4% - to $262 million for 2011.
Walker framed his case Thursday for millions in givebacks he's demanding from union employees as recalibrating benefits for county employees to match concessions made by private-sector workers.
"In tough times, people all across our county are making sacrifices to keep people working," Walker told the County Board. "County government should be no exception."
He urged supervisors to "hold firm and make the tough decisions" on employee concessions. His 2011 budget calls for freezing wages, eliminating seniority raises, requiring employees to pay more for health care and to contribute 5% of gross pay toward their pensions.
It's similar to the strategy Walker used to balance the 2010 budget, when the board went along with some concessions that hadn't been negotiated with county unions. Most of those unions still haven't agreed to those concessions.
The head of the county's largest union said the group would not bow to Walker's pressure. Richard Abelson, executive director of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, called Walker's 2011 spending plan "another phony budget."
"He's trying to extort us into making concessions that he doesn't want to have to negotiate," Abelson said. Abelson's union already sued the county over the 2010 budget, saying imposing cuts without a collective bargaining agreement was illegal. A series of unpaid furloughs was imposed this year as a way to keep the budget intact, though the most recent projection shows a $7 million shortfall by this year's end.
Walker's 2011 budget calls for as many as 26 furlough days and layoffs of up to 165 workers to balance the budget, if the unions don't agree to the concessions by the end of this year. He said that fallback language meant his budget met the test of being balanced, even if the concessions don't materialize.
County Board Chairman Lee Holloway called Walker's 2011 budget "clearly a pure punishment" for county workers. Holloway agreed with Walker that some employee concessions were appropriate, but he said they must be negotiated rather than dictated.
Supervisor Joe Sanfelippo praised Walker's budget as a bold step aimed at easing families' tax burden. Unpopular cuts avoided
Walker's budget sidesteps a series of running controversies from previous years: He's not proposing to privatize any services, close any pools or raise any general bus fares or zoo fees. He's not cutting payments to any museums or cultural attractions or proposing to line the lakefront with parking meters, as he has in the past.
He does, however, propose having service on all bus routes start a half-hour later at 4:30 a.m. and end two hours earlier, at midnight. Walker's budget also would reduce frequency of Saturday bus service on 13 routes. Ending fish hatchery
Though he does not propose eliminating the farm at the County Correctional Facility-South in Franklin as he has frequently in the past, Walker's budget would end operation of a fish hatchery at the Franklin lockup.
Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, Walker's Democratic opponent in the governor's race, said Walker had tried to gloss over the growth in spending under his watch and wrongly implies he's never increased spending. Walker's proposed 2011 tax levy of $262.3 million is $43.6 million higher than his first county budget in 2003.
"He's never once taken responsibility that the budget he proposed in 2003 was less than the budget he proposed today," Barrett said.
Walker said in his budget speech Thursday and on the campaign trail that all nine of his county budgets had no property-tax increase from the prior year. Walker, however, has included increases approved by the County Board each year into his proposed levy figure for the following year.
"Every year I veto the budget back to no levy increase," Walker said in an e-mail.
Here is another, 3 days before Walker was elected.
quote
Committee backs tax levy increase Panel votes for $5.6 million hike over this year's - and $6.6 million higher than Walker proposal
By Steve Schultze of the Journal Sentinel
Oct. 28, 2010
Milwaukee County property taxpayers would pay 2.1% more for 2011, under a version of next year's budget approved Thursday by the County Board's finance committee.
The panel voted 6-1 for a tax levy increase of $5.6 million over this year's - and $6.6 million higher than the level proposed by County Executive Scott Walker. That would bring the total levy for 2011 to $268.9 million.
The budget still must be approved by the full County Board and will likely face vetoes by Walker. His proposed budget called for a $1 million cut in next year's tax levy.
Walker's version of the budget included $24.5 million in employee wage and benefit concessions, including $17 million that would require agreement from county unions. If the unions fail to go along, up to 165 workers could get laid off and most employees could get five weeks of unpaid furloughs, under Walker's plan.
The board's finance committee softened some of the 2011 concessions, accounting for $3.6 million of the levy boost. [size] Walker wants a 5% employee contribution toward pension costs; the finance committee version calls for an initial contribution of 2% early next year coupled with a phased-in 2% wage increase. Under the committee version, the employee pension contribution would grow to 4% by the end of next year.[/size]
Both versions call for higher employee and retiree health care costs, though increases wouldn't be as steep under the committee version.
Underlying both versions of the budget are concerns that they could be ruled illegal for effectively forcing concessions. The committee version anticipates a legal fight, by authorizing hiring private lawyers to help "in light of potential litigation that may occur" over the concessions.
Richard Abelson, head of the county's largest union, said he considered both versions of the 2011 budget to be illegal.
"The premise is still that they want to bypass collective bargaining and adopt wages and working conditions through the budget process," said Abelson, executive director of District Council 48 of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.
Abelson's union announced Thursday it had won a decision by a state administrative judge saying the county had bargained in bad faith when it approved a 2010 budget with concessions it hadn't negotiated. That ruling should help bolster the union's position in arbitration over union contracts, Abelson said.
Walker, through his spokeswoman, said the ruling would have no impact.
"We either get the savings, or those employees who are not helping get furlough days," said the spokeswoman, Fran McLaughlin.
The committee version of the budget restored $680,000 for the Community Justice Resource Center; added $100,000 for youth recreational programs; and provided $250,000 to start a screening program for jail inmates. The panel also added $125,000 for the Men of Color Task Force, which Walker sought to eliminate.
The committee erased most of Walker's proposed cuts to county bus service, including reductions to late night service. The panel agreed to curtail Freeway Flyer service on routes 45, 47 and 49, but voted to cancel Walker cuts to other Freeway Flyer buses.
Voting in favor of the budget revisions Thursday were Supervisors Elizabeth M. Coggs, Michael Mayo Sr., Johnny Thomas, Peggy West, Willie Johnson Jr. and Patricia Jursik. Supervisor Jim "Luigi" Schmitt voted against the budget.
Schmitt nevertheless defended much of the committee's work on the budget.
"We did our very best in developing a more reasonable - and more achievable - package of concessions," he said.
The board is scheduled to adopt its 2011 budget Nov. 8.
Can someone clear up these questions for me. Sorry I'm not very educated on this subject, I should probably just stay out of this thread, but here goes...
When we talk about "the union" that Walker wants to break up, is there just one for all the government employees?
Democrat and Republican politicians do the same job/get paid the same*, so why are the Republicans fine with taking these cuts and losing their collective bargaining power? Do they think that they make enough already? Are they trying to be less greedy?
Can someone clear up these questions for me. Sorry I'm not very educated on this subject, I should probably just stay out of this thread, but here goes...
When we talk about "the union" that Walker wants to break up, is there just one for all the government employees?
Democrat and Republican politicians do the same job/get paid the same*, so why are the Republicans fine with taking these cuts and losing their collective bargaining power? Do they think that they make enough already? Are they trying to be less greedy?
*This is an assumption, correct me if I'm wrong.
There are of course many different Unions.
quote
» AFGE - American Federation Of Government Employees
» AFLCIO - American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations
» AFM - American Federation of Musicians
» AFSCME - American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees
» AFT - American Federation of Teachers
» ANA - American Nurses Association
» APWU - American Postal Workers Union
» ATU - Amalgamated Transit Union
» BAC - International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craft Workers
» BBF - International Brotherhood of Boilermakers
» BCTD - Building & Construction Trades Department
» BCTGMI - The Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grian Millers International Union
» BLE - Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers
» BMWE - Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees
» BRS - Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen
» BSOIW - International Association of Bridge, Structural, Ornamental, and Reinforcing Iro
» CJA - The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America
» CWA - Communication Workers of America
» CWU - Communications Workers Union
» GCIU - Graphics Communication International Union
» GMP - Glass, Molders, Pottery, Plastics, & Allied Workers International Union
» IAM - International Associations of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
» IATSE - International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees
» IBEW - International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
» IBT - International Brotherhood of Teamsters
» ILA - International Longshoremen's Assocations
» IUEC - International Union of Elevator Constructors
» IUOE - International Union of Operating Engineers
» LIUNA - Laborers International Union of North America
» NALC - National Association of Letter Carriers
» NATCA - National Air Traffic Controllers Association
» NFFE - National Federation of Federal Employees
» NTEU - National Treasury Employees Union
» OPCMIA - Operative Plasterers' and Cement Masons' International Association
» OPEIU - Office and Professional Employees International Union
» PACE - Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical, and Energy Workers
» PAT - Professional Association of Teachers
» PPF - Plumbers and Pipe Fitters Union
» RLCA - National Rural Letters Carrier's Association
» RWAW - United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers
» SEIU - Service Employees International Union
» SMW - Sheet Metal Workers International Association
» SPFPA - International Union, Security, Police and Fire Professionals of America
» TCU - Transportation Communications International Union
» UAW - United Auto Workers
» UE - United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers of America
» UFCW - United Food and Commercial Workers
» UGSOA - United Government Security Officers of America
» USW - United Steel Workers
» UTU - United Transportation Union
The Unions that Governor Walker is talking about are specifically the ones that the Government members are a part of AFSCME - American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees. The Budget cuts have nothing to do with any other Unions.
I don't think I can honestly answer the Democrat, Republican question, and will defer it to a smarter member.
Brad
PS, I think I should add, I am a member of IBT - International Brotherhood of Teamsters. I'm not active currently, and most likely will never work under them again, but I have paid dues, and am still a member. [GASP] of a Union.
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 03-01-2011).]
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05:51 PM
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
...the best part of being and American citizen is the fact that im allowed to call you names and belittle you...
That is really what you like best about America? Man, I'm ashamed to be in the same generation as you. People like you are the reason people like me have to work twice as hard to prove we aren't useless. If the whole point of America, of the millions of men offering their lives over the years, of our founding fathers risking their wealth and wellbeing and that of their families, of me owing taxes every year, is to allow you to belittle people who disagree with you based on their superior amount of life-experience, then I'm living in the wrong nation.
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06:36 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27104 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by JazzMan: All of them were "awarded" because I don't toe the right wing line nor drink the Conservative KookAid (tm).
No, you get negatives because you can be just as hostile and insulting. You're just fooling yourself.
quote
I also appreciate and respect the fact that you've been civil and haven't resorted to personal attacks, innuendo, and other rancorous means to communicate your opinion.
Was that before or after he called Republicans "pricks" and "Nazis"? Or are you just overlooking that inconvenient fact because you likely feel the same way?
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09:02 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
Was that before or after he called Republicans "pricks" and "Nazis"? Or are you just overlooking that inconvenient fact because you likely feel the same way?
You do know that a Negative vote does nothing right? There is NOTHING stopping a person who was banned from creating another account with the sole purpose of causing trouble. IIRC i have even seen people admit to having another account on here already be it by forgetting their login info or just because.
And if he feels the same way about Republicans as i do then so be it. You speaking out against us with such vehemence proves my point
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09:07 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27104 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Ramsespride: You do know that a Negative vote does nothing right? There is NOTHING stopping a person who was banned from creating another account with the sole purpose of causing trouble. IIRC i have even seen people admit to having another account on here already be it by forgetting their login info or just because.
...and if caught, Cliff will ban such a person. So good luck with that.
quote
And if he feels the same way about Republicans as i do then so be it. You speaking out against us with such vehemence proves my point
Which point is that?
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09:23 PM
Ramsespride Member
Posts: 1979 From: Where i am is where i am. Registered: Feb 2010
That nearly every Republican i have encountered has at times proved to me to be a rather unsavory person. Not saying all of them are but you take the cake from the bday party there fierobear. I pickup a great deal of vehemence from any post you make and as i recall the ONLY time i have seen you post is in Political threads. Monger it seems?
Also, i have seen time and time again that the people that are at the forefront of defending the Republican agenda are of the upper monetary levels and dont want anyone to get another cent of their money. Matter of fact, Mr. Bergstrom of Bergstrom GM here in NE Wisconsin, is a Republican and is speaking out against the Democrats and showing support of the Republicans. He makes A LOT of money with the like 14 dealerships he owns.
[This message has been edited by Ramsespride (edited 03-01-2011).]
Dude can come to work with you for a day? I have always wanted to go to a steel plant and see how its done in person, having been welding since i was about 9 i have wondered alot how its made. People dont get that it starts out as one thing, then after a few transformations it turns into the muffler i put on or the pipe i weld in or the fender i welded the rust holes in.
