quote Originally posted by Tigger: In the private sector if there isn't enough money coming in they lay people off. That's what happens in the real world.

Right. Or they do cutbacks to save jobs, just like the WI governor. Funny how that works, isn't it?

quote Originally posted by Tigger: Yes, he threatened to cut 1500 jobs to cut spending. That was the ONLY option he had in "balancing the budget" wasn't it? You won, woo hoo the wicked witch is dead. It's over, you don't have to be a Republican stooge anymore.

The job cuts got MOST of the attention. Your conclusion to that was that was the ONLY thing done to balance the budget? Why would you make that assumption? There is reduced spending in many other areas as well.

But, hey, at least for asking public employees to contribute 5% to their retirement, and to pay about $150/month more of their health insurance (with NO cut in the benefits of the health insurance), I only got called a Republican stooge.

That is pretty level headed of you. Usually, lately, asking that MODEST contribution gets you called Hitler. Or a slave owner. Republican stooge isn't so bad.


I don't think it was very level headed, though, to ask for 5% contribution and $150/month (which still leaves Wisconsin state employees higher compensated than almost any other state's employees), and to think THE NEXT THING is going to be to outsource jobs to India and to have almost no teachers and having Wisconsin children sitting in front of monitors watching a DVD of a teacher.

Honestly, that wasn't a very logical leap.


And as an infinitieth (I made that word up) time reminder, the poor state employees STILL have protection and representation in the form of their union AND democratic representatives. So it isn't like they have been left completely helpless, without remedy, and open for brutal worker abuse. Not even close to the case.


I HOPE those facts help reassure you. It hasn't seemed to be reassuring to a lot of people in Wisconsin. Yet, those are the actual facts.

What you want to be a martyr?

Here's my advice for Wisconson. Our new Governor Snyder and Republican state is expected to sign a bill into law to begin taxing pensions. My Grandmother is a Republican stooge (hitler?) and oh is she pissed. Then increase taxes on lower incomes, give whatever net budget savings to corporations as tax breaks. It will do nothing to solve our budget problems.

But that aint' it, here's where it gets good...

The bill will also give the Governor and the state power to take over communities that they deem are in a budget "crisis." The power to toss out union contracts, fire city officials, and dissolve ELECTED councils and boards. The power to just throw out ELECTED people, people! What's that sound like? Here's the Republican spin on it to save you the trouble "The law encourages local governments and schools to fix their own problems."

...so if a community here is in financial crisis or the State says so they come in and take control however they want.

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 03-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Tigger: What you want to be a martyr? Here's my advice for Wisconson. Our new Governor Snyder and Republican state is expected to sign a bill into law to begin taxing pensions. My Grandmother is a Republican stooge (hitler?) and oh is she pissed. Then increase taxes on lower incomes, give whatever net budget savings to corporations as tax breaks. The bill will also give the Governor and the state power to take over communities that they deem are in a budget "crisis." The power to toss out union contracts, fire city officials, and dissolve ELECTED councils and boards. The power to just throw out ELECTED people, people! What's that sound like? Here's the Republican spin on it to save you the trouble "The law encourages local governments and schools to fix their own problems." ...so if a community here is in financial crisis or the State says so they come in and take control however they want.

Why would you ask if I wanted to be a martyr? I don't understand. Republican stooge is fine, if that is what you are referring to. Funny how the tea party tried to be painted as the angry mob, and yet it is the left and the democrats that are the name callers and insulters and angry.


I had heard most of the things the republican governor was doing, and believed they were as portrayed. I DO have a little problem believing THIS line because it is the typical leftist playbook accusation: "Then increase taxes on lower incomes, give whatever net budget savings to corporations as tax breaks."


HOWEVER, as a conservative, I do NOT agree with what your Michigan republicans are proposing regarding the power to take over communities. I highly doubt it is constitutional, and as a conservative, I believe in people adhering to the constitution.


Now here is a funny thing. All the Wisconsin republicans did was eliminate collective bargaining, which many states have NEVER had; and have the state employees pay 5% of their retirement, and pay about $150/month more of their health insurance. Yet it sounds like Michigan republicans are trampling the state constitution. Which action caused the biggest public outcry, the most protests, the most histrionics, the most angst, and the most name calling?

Maybe it is because I don't live in Michigan, and I do live in Wisconsin, and because I don't watch much news, but I THINK it has been Wisconsin.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Regarding teachers, even WITH what they are being asked to contribute, they are STILL paid better than the vast majority of the teachers in the U.S. So don't take this as some anti-teacher, hate teachers, pile on teachers, disrespect teachers thing by republicans. It ISN'T. It SAVED teacher jobs, and public employee jobs.

I'm not sure about your teachers getting paid more than the vast majority, but I have to agree that apparently they don't have much to complain about wage-wise. As for saving jobs, my school is looking at an increase of 100-150 students next year (the local private school couldn't pay it's mortgage), and the teachers are wondering which two of us are going to be let go. And, with class sizes of 30-35 if we wouldn't be in better off on unemployment. As for the students driving better cars than the teachers, that's pretty much true here. Until a year and a half ago, my most modern set of wheels was a 95 Mustang(I sure miss it though!).

Lefty Blogger: Media Silence on Wis. Death Threats Is 'Intellectual Dishonesty and Journalistic Bias'
http://newsbusters.org/blog...tellectual-dishonest

quote It seems that some on the left are beginning to notice the epic journalistic malpractice going on in the media's refusal to cover a litany of death threats - some specific and credible - against Wisconsin Republicans for their support of legislation trimming the power of public sector unions. "Burying the death threat story is a clear example of intellectual dishonesty and journalistic bias," liberal blogger Lee Stranahan succinctly put it in a piece at the Huffington Post on Tuesday. Stranahan wondered "why progressives shouldn't expect more from our media -- and ourselves -- than we expect from our political adversaries." He even linked to a post by our own Noel Sheppard demonstrating much of the media's - including all three news networks' - apparent lack of interest in death threats against Wisconsin's elected officials. It's nice to see that a concern over a politically-stilted news media isn't confined to those directly disadvantaged by it. Stranahan, who has also been working with Andrew Breitbart of late to unearth fraud in the so-called Pigford settlement, wrote of one of the more explicit and disturbing death threats (also documented at NB): After the Giffords shooting, authorities have to take this sort of threat seriously. The media should too, even if the disturbed person who sent that email was motivated by exactly the kind of rhetoric that's been used by many liberals against GOP officials over and over again during the Madison protests. And there are more threats floating around the internet, in varying degrees of scary and credible. If you read liberal blogs, you might have heard of some of these threats. Indirectly, anyway. Sarah Palin said the rhetoric should be toned down. The threats themselves were ignored and Palin was mocked. On the other hand, if you read conservative blogs or listen to conservative media, you know all about these threats because people like Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh and websites like Newsbusters and BigJournalism have not only been talking about the death threats for days now but they've been talking about the mainstream and liberal media ignoring the threats for days. Ignoring the story of these threats is deeply, fundamentally wrong. It's bad, biased journalism that will lead to no possible good outcome and progressives should be leading the charge against it. Just before writing this article, I did a Google search and it's stunning to find out that the right wing media really isn't exaggerating -- proven death threats against politicians are being ignored by the supposedly honest media. If you've never agreed with a single thing that Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly et al have said about anything, you can't in any good conscience say that they don't have a point here. Death threats are wrong and if a story like Wisconsin is national news for days, then so are death threats. Let's hope that at least some of Stranahan's readers take his words to heart.

Union equates lavish benefits to black civil rights.
http://washingtonexaminer.c...s-black-civil-rights

quote "Madison is just the beginning!" AFL-CIO chief Richard Trumka told a union rally in Annapolis on Monday. "Like that old song goes, 'You ain't seen n-n-n-n-nothing yet!' " Fresh from defeat in Wisconsin, union leaders are planning a new campaign not just to head off future challenges to their collective bargaining powers but also to make the case that organized labor's benefits and prerogatives -- wages, health care, and pensions that are more generous than those of comparable workers in the private sector -- are the moral equivalent of rights won by black Americans during the civil rights movement. To make the point, the AFL-CIO is planning a series of nationwide events on April 4, the 43rd anniversary of the day the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated after speaking in Memphis, Tenn., on behalf of striking black garbage collectors. The message: King's cause, and that of angry schoolteachers in Madison, are one. "April 4 [is] the day on which Martin Luther King Jr. gave his life for the cause of public collective bargaining," Trumka said in another speech, in Washington, on Wednesday. And on the AFL-CIO blog, there is this notice: "Join us to make April 4, 2011, a day to stand in solidarity with working people in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana and dozens of other states where well-funded, right-wing corporate politicians are trying to take away the rights Dr. King gave his life for." Union officials are not planning a traditional mega-rally in Washington. Rather, they're encouraging locals across the country to stage shows of force in support of Wisconsin unions and the Democratic lawmakers who fled the state in a failed effort to stop Republican Gov. Scott Walker's budget plan. Throughout, the AFL-CIO is asking local leaders to tie the Wisconsin issue to the King assassination and civil rights. "A lot of people forget that what [King] was doing in Memphis was fighting for sanitation workers there," says Josh Goldstein, an AFL-CIO spokesman. "It's important for people to make the connection. Martin Luther King was so important to the labor movement. Workers' rights and civil rights go hand in hand. It's a time to remind people what he was fighting for." The AFL-CIO is advising member unions to come up with activities to stress ties between big labor and the civil rights movement. AFL-CIO planners suggest that local labor leaders team up with churches to make workers' rights a theme at worship services. Union bosses also advise asking churches "to consider organizing candlelight vigils, which could include the reading of Dr. King's 'I've Been To The Mountaintop' speech," which King delivered the night before he was killed. But was King fighting for the things that Trumka and his union forces are fighting for today? Is, say, the "right" for well-paid, unionized public employees to enjoy a health plan that includes coverage for Viagra ---- a cause for which Milwaukee teachers waged a protracted court battle -- the equivalent of King's work in Memphis, much less his efforts for the right to vote and access to public accommodations? "It is delusion, bordering on abomination, to try to equate what Martin Luther King was doing in Memphis to public workers getting Cadillac benefits for which they contribute very little, or nothing, at taxpayers' expense," says Peter Kirsanow, a member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights who has also served on the National Labor Relations Board. "The sanitation workers in Memphis were receiving wages that were so significantly below that which are enjoyed by middle-class teachers in Madison that to try to draw that comparison is offensive. Truly offensive." Whatever events take place on April 4, look for the effort to have the enthusiastic support of the Obama administration. "Union rights are no different than civil rights," Labor Secretary Hilda Solis told officials of the Communications Workers of America during a Wisconsin strategy conference call two weeks ago. "It's a part of our history, it's a part of our culture, it's a part of what has made this country so great." Will it work? After all the demonstrations, and all the speeches, will the public watch protests by angry, nearly all-white, middle-class school teachers with excellent health and retirement plans and think of Martin Luther King? Trumka's AFL-CIO and the big unions are very rich and very powerful. They have the ability to get their message out. But their April 4 strategy might be too ambitious even for them.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: HOWEVER, as a conservative, I do NOT agree with what your Michigan republicans are proposing regarding the power to take over communities. I highly doubt it is constitutional, and as a conservative, I believe in people adhering to the constitution.

Have you been getting factual info on it ? Or the usual media propoganda machine garbage ?

http://detnews.com/article/...335/1268/OPINION0312

quote Under old law and new — and this is ignored by organized labor and its sycophants on the left — there are specific conditions and an involved method under which an emergency financial manager can be named. Before state oversight begins, a public entity must have missed payroll, bond payments or other significant obligations to trigger an examination of its financial condition by the state treasurer, who now happens to be Democrat Andy Dillon. A committee is then appointed by the state to meet with officials from the financially strapped locality, and a consent agreement reached before the governor can appoint the manager. This agreement also includes specific conditions under which state control will come to an end with the conclusion of the detailed financial emergency that led to the naming of the manager. The emergency financial managers, previously and under the new law, have broad powers to oversee local communities and school districts, powers that trump those of local mayors, council members and school board representatives. But those local powers are restored when the manager has completed the restructuring of the local entity's troubled finances. The reason public unions and their allies are upset is a change in the law that gives the emergency financial manager a powerful hammer against organized labor. No longer can unions ignore requests for concessions like AFSCME Council 25 has done in response to requests by Detroit Mayor Dave Bing. Under the new state law, an emergency financial manager could alter — or even void — contracts with unions that refuse to negotiate meaningful change, a reversal of leverage points in collective bargaining that alarms public labor unions.

What's really so bad about providing tools for communities (at the community's request) that have gone underwater and missed payments to thei workers, retirees, or bondholders to work though their bankrupt situations and get back on their feet ? And if it is in fact such an immoral and corrupt program, you have to ask yourself why the usual uncivilized union goons didn't threaten former speaker Dillon or former governor Jennifer Granholm's life over it when she came up with it in the first place 20 years ago.... hmmm.

Screw the unions. Tear up their contracts and can them all. Someone else will gladly take the work and not ***** about it or vandalize or threaten people or show up dunk all the time either !

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 03-18-2011).]

It's not over yet.
Dane County judge halts collective bargaining law
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/118242109.html

quote Madison -- Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi issued a temporary restraining order Friday, barring the publication of a controversial new law that would sharply curtail collective bargaining for public employees. Sumi’s order will prevent Secretary of State Doug La Follette from publishing the law until she can rule on the merits of the case. Dane County Ismael Ozanne is seeking to block the law because he says a legislative committee violated the state’s open meetings law. Sumi said Ozanne was likely to succeed on the merits. "It seems to me the public policy behind effective enforcement of the open meeting law is so strong that it does outweigh the interest, at least at this time, which may exist in favor of sustaining the validity of the (law)," she said. The judge’s finding – at least for now – is a setback to Republican Gov. Scott Walker and a victory for opponents, who have spent weeks in the Capitol to protest the bill. Asst. Atty. Gen Steven Means, who was part of the state's legal team, said after the ruling that "we disagree with it." "And the reason they have appellate courts is because circuit court judges make errors and they have in this case." Means said the state would "entertain an appeal." "If the Legislature decides to go back and re-act on these provisions, they have the right to do that. And we will see what happens," he said. Means said he had no idea what the Legislature might do. Means said no final decision had been made on an appeal. "But that's where we are pointing at," he said. Means said the state expected Sumi's decision. He said the state had a chance to substitute judges, but decided not to do so. Rep. Peter Barca (D-Kenosha) said he was pleased with the judge's ruling. "I am very pleased with her action," Barca said. "We felt from the beginning this was a violation of the open meetings law. And now we go on from here."

Wisconsin Judge Blocks New Law Curbing Public Worker Union Bargaining Rights
http://www.newsmax.com/News...al&promo_code=BE53-1

quote Wisconsin judge issued a temporary restraining order Friday blocking the state's new and contentious collective bargaining law from taking effect, a measure that drew tens of thousands of protesters to the state Capitol and sent some Democrats fleeing to Illinois in an attempt to block a vote on it. Gov. Scott Walker The judge's order is a major setback for new Republican Gov. Scott Walker and puts the future of the law in question. Dane County Judge Maryann Sumi issued the order, which was requested by that county's District Attorney Ismael Ozanne, a Democrat. Ozanne filed a lawsuit contending that a legislative committee that broke a stalemate that had kept the law in limbo for weeks met without the 24-hour notice required by Wisconsin's open meetings law. The Republican-controlled Legislature passed the measure and Walker signed it last week. Secretary of State Doug La Follette planned to publish the law on March 25, but the judge's order will prevent that from happening, at least for now. Assistant Attorney General Steven Means said the state will appeal the ruling, but he didn't say when. Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie said in a statement that the governor was confident the bill would become law in the near future. "This legislation is still working through the legal process," Werwie said. A spokesman for Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald declined to comment, citing the ongoing legal fight. Democrats were hopeful the ruling would lead to the undoing of the law. "I would hope the Republicans would take this as an opportunity to sit down with Democrats and negotiate a proposal we could all get behind," said Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach, of the 14 senators who stayed in Illinois for three weeks in an attempt to stop the bill from passing. The bill was part of Walker's solution for plugging a $137 million state budget shortfall. A part of the measure would require state workers to increase their health insurance and pension contributions to save the state $30 million by July 1. Other parts of Walker's original proposal to address the budget shortfall were removed before the bill passed last week. The Legislature planned to take those up later. Lawmakers are not scheduled to be in session again until April 5. People opposed to the law converged on the state Capitol over the past month with massive demonstrations that went on for more than three weeks.

Time to secretly put a GPS tracking devices on the Democratic Senator's cars, in case they plan to flee the state again.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-19-2011).]

Gov. Walker's Legislation Has Unions Caving Already
http://townhall.com/columni...g_already/page/full/

quote Apparently Gov. Scott Walker knew exactly what he was doing. Before he signed the bill limiting collective bargaining privileges, teachers unions throughout the state were slow to respond to calls for salary and benefit concessions. They believed their members should be held harmless during a period of necessary cost-cutting. They didn't seem to care that Wisconsin schools were operating with multi-million dollar deficits that were forcing the layoffs of younger teachers and the cancellation of student programs. Their only answer was to raise taxes at a time when few people could afford it. They didn’t want to sacrifice anything, despite the fact that schools spend about 80 percent of their budgets on labor costs. But now, with Walker's legislation set to become law once it clears legal hurdles, the unions are suddenly coming to their senses. They are jumping at the chance to extend their collective bargaining agreements, in exchange for meaningful concessions that will help schools survive the financial crisis. In Madison, the teachers union has suddenly agreed to a wage freeze and increases in health insurance and pension contributions. The concessions will save the district an estimated $15 million next year, which would almost make up for the expected cuts in state aid. In Oshkosh, the union has agreed to a wage freeze, increased contributions toward benefits and a change in the employee insurance carrier, which will save the district more than $5 million per year. In the Slinger district, the union has agreed to commit 5.8 percent of teacher pay to pension costs and increase contributions toward health care costs. The concessions will save the district about $1.3 million per year. What are the unions gaining by accepting concessions at the last possible minute? Plenty. They are salvaging things like automatic annual salary increases for teachers, a generous number of paid sick and personal days off, reimbursement for unused sick days, salary and benefits for union officials who do not teach, retirement bonuses, overage pay for teachers with a few extra students, and many other items. Those contractual perks would have gone by the wayside if local collective bargaining agreements had been allowed to expire. Under the new law, the unions will not have the power to negotiate for many of the items listed in current contracts. So the unions will save some time-honored perks and schools will save a lot of money. This type of compromise would not have occurred without pressure from Gov. Walker and his supporters in the legislature. Perhaps the governor knew exactly what he was doing by creating a crisis and forcing the unions to face financial reality. Nothing else seemed to be working and schools were drowning in deficits. Ironically, the loss of collective bargaining privileges would not have been necessary if the unions would have come to their senses months ago and started offering meaningful concessions. They lost most of their privileges by remaining stubborn for too long.

Scott Walker's killed his own anti-union bill, say opponents who promise a 'tsunami of litigation'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...nami-litigation.html

quote Republicans in Wisconsin have been accused of shooting themselves in the foot by publishing Governor Scott Walker’s anti-union bill on Friday and turning into law. The bill was published in violation of a court order blocking its introduction while challenges to the law are considered. But opponents of the bill say Republicans who have now made it much easier for the bill to be permanently overturned. Defiant: Wisconsin state governor Scott Walker went ahead and published the anti-union bill on Friday, turning it into law Because it is now law, it can be challenge in court, they say, claiming that the Republicans have effectively killed their own bill. Lester Pines, an attorney who represents unionised teachers in Madison, told the Wisconsin State Journal newspaper that publishing the bill, in defiance of both the court order and specific written instructions from the Secretary of State, would 'unleash a tsunami of litigation.' He added that Madison Teachers Inc plans to file its own lawsuit on Monday. Mary Bell, the president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, a teachers union whose members are among those affected by the law, attacked Friday's move. Fighting on: Protesters shout outside the office of Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker in Madison 'It's another sign that the governor and legislature are in a desperate power grab to take away the voice of teachers, support staff, nurses, home health care workers and other public employees,' she said. According to the website politicususa.com, violating the court order and bringing the anti-union law into effect will open legal channels for various groups who have been waiting to challenge the law. 'It’s obvious from recent events, including the Wisconsin Republicans attempting to intimidate a Professor who wrote a critical article about their actions for the New York Times by demanding his emails through the Wisconsin Open Records law, that the Republicans are desperate,' the website said. 'Apparently they are so desperate that they are no longer trying to hide their agenda under the guise of a budget issue, let alone pretend what they are doing is legal.' The bill overturns a 52-year-old state policy of encouraging public-sector unionism. It sparked massive demonstrations in Madison, the state capital, for weeks. Republican supporters said the action by the state's Legislative Reference Bureau (LRB) in publishing the bill on Friday was legal and meant the controversial anti-union measure was now in effect. Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said on Saturday that the LRB's action did violate any laws because the bureau was not specifically mentioned in any court order.

I am one who sees both the value and expired relevance of unions. All they are to me is the voice of the worker when protections are not willingly offered by corporations, or the government will not - usually because of a desire to cater to the same large corporations - cover a decent wage and treatment of workers. It should be a check and balance thing. The problem has become that unions ultimately become the same back-room managed operations that bad government becomes. It's pretty old by now, but well known that the unions in WI were willing to work with the governor. Taking away the unions ability to negotiate with the state sets up a trend that weakens the rights of all workers. We will become a Walmart nation of employees if it goes too far.

quote Originally posted by USFiero: I am one who sees both the value and expired relevance of unions. All they are to me is the voice of the worker when protections are not willingly offered by corporations, or the government will not - usually because of a desire to cater to the same large corporations - cover a decent wage and treatment of workers. It should be a check and balance thing. The problem has become that unions ultimately become the same back-room managed operations that bad government becomes. It's pretty old by now, but well known that the unions in WI were willing to work with the governor. Taking away the unions ability to negotiate with the state sets up a trend that weakens the rights of all workers. We will become a Walmart nation of employees if it goes too far.

The rights of "all" workers ? How are those served by propping up a special class of grossly overpaid government employees by enabling them to write their own tickets at the expense of all the taxpayers ?

How does relegating everyone who works for legitimate private enterprises to second-class citizenship serve "all" "workers" ? How does denying those state workers who don't wish to have tribute skimmed off their paychecks to support leftwing miscreants serve them, much less anyone else ?

These union schmucks really need to get off their high horse, or be knocked off it.

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: The rights of "all" workers ? How are those served by propping up a special class of grossly overpaid government employees by enabling them to write their own tickets at the expense of all the taxpayers ? How does relegating everyone who works for legitimate private enterprises to second-class citizenship serve "all" "workers" ? How does denying those state workers who don't wish to have tribute skimmed off their paychecks to support leftwing miscreants serve them, much less anyone else ? These union schmucks really need to get off their high horse, or be knocked off it.

Are they grossly overpaid? It is interesting that the states without teachers unions also have the worst student performance and lowest incomes in our country. It is a cart-before-the horse argument. Crappy incomes = low tax revenue = poor standard of living. Has the state of employment before unions lost to our memories? We can trust large government/businesses to look out for the well-being of the worker and those that receive the products and services they produce? Again I'll assert - there is a balance that needs to be maintained, and too many people are pulling a little too hard for a poor resolution.

Wisconsin AG Claims Collective-Bargaining Measure Is Now Law
http://www.newsmax.com/US/A...al&promo_code=BF76-1

quote Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen told a state appeals court that a state agency’s Internet posting of a contested law limiting public employee collective- bargaining rights has rendered moot litigation to block it. Van Hollen, a Republican, said in a statement today he is also asking Wisconsin Circuit Court Judge Maryann Sumi to vacate a temporary restraining order she issued on March 18, preventing Secretary of State Doug La Follette from giving the measure full force and effect by printing notice of it in a state newspaper. While Van Hollen had appealed Sumi’s ruling, the state’s Legislative Research Bureau, which wasn’t bound by that order, posted a copy of the legislation signed by Republican Governor Scott Walker on its website on March 25. “Because the law is in force, the appeal, which was based on the harm caused by enjoining the legislative process, is moot,” Van Hollen said. The attorney general said his office had also asked Sumi to vacate her order for the same reason. The legislation, championed by the first-term Republican governor, requires annual recertification votes for union representation and makes payment of union dues voluntary. The measure exempts firefighters and police officers. Under the new law, state workers would contribute 5.8 percent of their salaries toward pensions and pay 12.6 percent of their health insurance costs. The legislation would generate $30 million in savings this fiscal year and $300 million in the following two years, the governor has said. Attack on Workers Democrats and organized labor called the bill an attack on workers. Opposition to the legislation sparked almost four weeks of mass protests around and inside the Capitol. Acting on complaints by three public officials and a state employees’ union leader, Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne filed suit arguing the legislation was created in violation of minimum notice requirements in the state’s open- meetings law. Sumi’s March 18 temporary order was granted in response to Ozanne’s request. Wisconsin’s capital city, Madison, is also the Dane County seat. The prosecutor didn’t immediately reply to e-mail and telephone requests for comment. A hearing is scheduled for tomorrow on Ozanne’s request for a preliminary injunction that would block implementation of the challenged law until the legislators named as defendants are no longer in session and immune from being sued. The prosecutor’s case is State of Wisconsin Ex Rel. Ozanne v. Fitzgerald, 11cv1244, Dane County, Wisconsin, Circuit Court (Madison). The appellate case is Ozanne v. Fitzgerald, 2011AP613-LV, Wisconsin Court of Appeals, District 4 (Madison).

It's law until another Dane county judge issues another stay, then it goes to the appealate court, and gets kicked up to the state supreme court, which finds the law kosher. This will be the standard procedure for every single thing that comes out of the legislature and is signed by the governor.

This is why if the unionistas get that kloppenburg hack put on the state supreme court, the legislature and executive elected last november become meaningless.

This is also why democrats should never be put in judges' robes. They are liberals first, and judges only for the sake of the power to legislate from the bench.

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 03-29-2011).]

quote Originally posted by USFiero: It is interesting that the states without teachers unions also have the worst student performance and lowest incomes in our country. It is a cart-before-the horse argument. Crappy incomes = low tax revenue = poor standard of living.

By your argument one could assume that better pay gets you better teachers and thereby better results. So teachers in private(nonunion) schools are better or worse than public school teachers? And which ones are paid more?

Far as I understand Ohios version, as of today, similar bill has now passed BOTH congresses, just awaits gov to sign it. Catch up Wi.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-29-2011).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Wisconsin AG Claims Collective-Bargaining Measure Is Now Law http://www.newsmax.com/US/A...al&promo_code=BF76-1

Or, is it?

Todd Richmond
AP
MADISON, Wis. -- A Wisconsin judge for the second time directed the state to put on hold an explosive law that strips most public workers of nearly all their union bargaining rights, ordering officials on Tuesday to follow her original instructions to stand down.

"Apparently that language was either misunderstood or ignored, but what I said was the further implementation of (the law) was enjoined," said a visibly annoyed Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi. "That is what I now want to make crystal clear."

Last week, Sumi issued an emergency injunction prohibiting the Wisconsin secretary of state from formally publishing the law - the final step before it could take effect.
The Hon. Maryann Sumi reiterates her temporary restraining order barring further implementation of 2011 Wisconsin Act 10 at the Dane County Courthouse in Madison, Wis., Tuesday, March 29, 2011.
Michael P. King, Pool / AP
The Hon. Maryann Sumi reiterates her temporary restraining order barring further implementation of 2011 Wisconsin Act 10 at the Dane County Courthouse in Madison, Wis., on Tuesday.

Republican legislative leaders responded by directing the law be published by another state agency, and then declared it valid. State officials began implementing the law this weekend, stopping the collection of union dues for state workers and taking more from their pay for health care and retirement.

Sumi said Tuesday that action violated her original order, and she made it clear after a daylong hearing that the law was on hold while she considers a broader challenge to its legality.

The back and forth furthered the often angry debate between new Gov. Scott Walker, his Republican allies in the Legislature and the state's public sector unions.

Walker and the GOP have aggressively pushed forward their effort to remove the bargaining rights of state workers, using a surprise parliamentary maneuver to break a weeks-long stalemate to get it passed and then finding another route to publish the law after Sumi's order blocked the secretary of state from doing so.

State Department of Justice spokesman Steve Means said the agency continues to believe the law was properly published and is in effect. Walker's spokesman, Cullen Werwie, didn't immediately return a message seeking comment.

Wisconsin Department of Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch, Walker's top aide, issued a statement saying the agency will evaluate the judge's order.

"We will continue to confer with our legal counsel and have more information about how to move forward in the near future," Huebsch said.

The law requires most public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health insurance. It also strips away their rights to collectively bargain for anything except wages.

I don't know if its been brought up in all these stories but there is apparently a deadline for the bill to become law. This judge is taking her sweet ass time to decide whether it needs a further hearing. Coincidence?

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: I don't know if its been brought up in all these stories but there is apparently a deadline for the bill to become law. This judge is taking her sweet ass time to decide whether it needs a further hearing. Coincidence?

There is a law that requires a bill to be published within 10 working days after being signed by their governor. That is why the alternate body was required by law to publish the bill since their lefty sec state wasn't doing his job. Judges don't even have the authority to rule on what the legislature and executive branch can sign into law in the first place, so the useful idiots parroting that Dane county hack's ruling as a talking point are irrelevant in the first place. The judiciary deals with LAWS, not BILLS; until something actually becomes LAW, it isn't in their domain at all.

But as I've pointed out, their judiciary is corrupted all to hell over there and is expected to actively obstruct everything the state's duely elected legislators and governor do. If they get their union flunkie on the supreme court there won't be any check or balance left on the rest of their bought-and-paid-for judiciary; and the public union hacks will have successfully snuffed out the will of the people yet again.

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 03-30-2011).]

Wis. Judge Halts Implementation of Bargaining Law
http://www.newsmax.com/News...al&promo_code=BF9A-1

quote A Wisconsin judge on Tuesday barred state officials from any further implementation of a law that strips most public workers of nearly all their collective bargaining rights. Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi issued an emergency injunction prohibiting enactment of the law earlier this month. But the Legislative Reference Bureau published the law anyway on Friday. Publication is typically the last step before a law takes effect, but it's unclear if the bureau's action amounted to that; the law's supporters say it did, but opponents say the secretary of state had to designate a publication date. Sumi stopped short of issuing a declaration saying the law was not in effect during a hearing Tuesday but said her earlier order had either been ignored or misunderstood. She said anyone who violates the new order would face sanctions. State Department of Justice spokesman Steve Means said the agency believes the law was properly published and is in effect. Cullen Werwie, a spokesman for Gov. Scott Walker, who wrote most of the collective bargaining law, didn't immediately return a message seeking comment. Wisconsin Department of Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch, Walker's top aide, issued a statement saying the agency will evaluate the judge's order. "We will continue to confer with our legal counsel and have more information about how to move forward in the near future," Huebsch said. The law requires most public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health insurance. It also strips away their rights to collectively bargain for anything except wages.

Another "twist:"

MADISON, Wis. — A week ago, Wisconsin Republicans thought they'd won the fight over the state's polarizing union rights bill. They'd weathered massive protests, outfoxed Senate Democrats who fled the state and gotten around a restraining order blocking the law by having an obscure state agency publish it. They even started preparations to pull money from public workers' paychecks.

But the victory was short-lived. A judge ruled Friday that the restraining order will stay in place for at least two months she while considers whether Republicans passed the law illegally. It was the second blow to Republicans in as many days after the same judge declared Thursday that the law hadn't been properly published and wasn't in effect as they claimed.

Republicans now must either wait for the case to wind its way through the courts or pass the law again to get around complaints it wasn't done properly the first time. One GOP leader said Friday he didn't see much point in that.

"We passed the law correctly, legally the first time," Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said in a statement. "Passing the law correctly and legally a second or third time wouldn't change anything. It certainly wouldn't stop another activist judge and (a) room full of lawyers from trying to start this merry-go-round all over again."

The law would force public employees to pay more for their health care and pension benefits, which amounts to an 8 percent pay cut. It also would eliminate their ability to collectively bargain anything except wage increases no higher than inflation.

Republican Gov. Scott Walker has said the law is needed to help schools and local governments deal with cuts in state funding he expects to make to address an estimated $3.6 billion shortfall in the next two-year budget. His spokesman referred questions Friday to state Department of Administration officials, who declined to comment.

Democrats have said the bill is meant to weaken the public employee unions that have been some of their strongest campaign supporters. Its introduction in mid-February set off a month of protests that drew up to 85,000 people to the state Capitol and sent Senate Democrats scurrying to Illinois to block a vote in that chamber.

Republicans eventually got around the Democrats' boycott by removing fiscal provisions from the bill so it could be passed with fewer senators present.

Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi has been considering a lawsuit that claims Republican lawmakers violated the state's opening meetings law when they met to change the bill. The lawsuit filed by Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne says the state's open meetings law requires 24 hours notice of a meeting but Republicans provided barely two. Republican legislative leaders say proper notice was given under Senate rules.
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Sumi heard testimony Friday from people who said they heard about the meeting only minutes before it began. They said they arrived to find long lines at the Capitol's entrances and by the time they reached the room where the meeting was held, police wouldn't allow them in.

Rich Judge, chief of staff for Assembly Democratic Leader Peter Barca, testified that someone dropped off a petition at Barca's office the night of the meeting that was signed by nearly 3,000 people who claimed they had been denied access.

Brian Gleason of Madison testified he reached the Senate parlor, where the committee hearing was being held, about 20 minutes before the meeting was scheduled to begin. He found a crowd of about 150 people and a line of police standing shoulder to shoulder denying access.

"Frankly, I was angry," he said. "At that point, the train going into the Senate parlor was already closed to me."

Sumi gave the attorneys until May 23 to make additional arguments, delaying a decision for nearly two months and possibly longer. Even when she does rule, one side or the other is likely to appeal in an attempt to get the case to the Wisconsin Supreme Court. The state has already appealed her restraining order to the high court, but it has not said whether it will hear the case and is under no deadline to do so.

Two other, separate lawsuits also have been filed, which could further drag out the matter.

Anger over the bill also has prompted recall efforts against 16 state senators, including eight from each party. On Friday, Democrats announced they had collected enough signatures for a recall election against one of the Republicans.

Ohio follows Wisconsin's lead.
Ohio Gov. Kasich Signs Controversial Union Bill
http://www.newsmax.com/Insi...al&promo_code=C007-1

quote Ohio Gov. John Kasich signed a controversial collective-bargaining bill Thursday evening, a measure similar to the Wisconsin bill that spurred protests from coast to coast and that dramatically limits the bargaining power of unionized state workers, including firefighters and teachers. Ohio Gov. John Kasich The Senate voted 17-16 for the measure yesterday after the House of Representatives passed it earlier in the day. Kasich has backed the bill, which also would require government workers to make minimum payments for health-care coverage and pensions. Ohio Democrats have pledged to ask voters to repeal Senate Bill 5. That would require more than 231,000 voters to sign petitions within 90 days of passage to prevent it from taking effect until the public vote, according to the secretary of state. The measure and a similar bill sought by Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker have spurred nationwide labor protests. “These folks are not numbers on a page or lines on a graph,” said Representative Matt Szollosi, a Democrat from Oregon, near Toledo. “They do not deserve to be slapped in the face and put further into harm’s way, because the liberty groups or Tea Party groups or whoever is pulling the Republican strings right now have demonized public workers.” The measure is likely to set off a statewide campaign that promises to be one of the biggest ballot battles in recent memory, The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports. The campaign, called We Are Ohio, will coordinate efforts to write a ballot issue, gather signatures to place a referendum on the November ballot and raise money to persuade Ohioans to throw out SB 5, the newspaper reported. "This is going to be a very big campaign," We Are Ohio spokesman Dennis Willard told the newspaper, noting that that the collective bargaining debate is drawing attention from supporters and opponents from other states as well as from numerous interest groups here. A competing website has also been launched by supporters, called sb5truth.com. Ohio Chamber of Commerce President Andrew Doehrel told the Plain Dealer he'd be shocked if either side spent $20 million. "You can do a heck of a statewide campaign for $6 to $8 million dollars," he said.

Wisconsin 'Ground Zero' of Battle to Reshape America
http://www.newsmax.com/News...al&promo_code=C02A-1

quote The fate of the grass-roots push to limit government growth in America hinges on who wins several pitched battles that continue to escalate in Wisconsin, former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and other leading conservatives are warning. Those melees include recall clashes, high-stakes elections, union campaign scuffles and intense courtroom dramas that have escalated in the Badger State since Gov. Scott Walker set out to cut public-sector entitlements to salvage the state budget. On Friday, Democrats submitted petitions with more than 20,000 signatures to initiate a recall election against state GOP Sen. Dan Kapanke. Republicans say it’s a blatant effort to punish Kapanke for supporting Walker’s efforts. Organized labor has poured more than $3 million into Wisconsin to underwrite both the massive recall campaign and a key state Supreme Court election that will be decided April 5. “Wisconsin is ground zero for the country,” Tea Party Express founder Sal Russo tells Newsmax. “This is the left’s last stand to turn back the tide of what conservatives have been trying to do in the country over the last two years. So we can’t fail there -- it’s ground zero. “Liberals are trying to say, ‘Even if conservatives win the elections, as we did in a lot of states in 2010, we’ll be able to frustrate and stop them and make it so difficult for them that nobody else will run like that in other states. “It will bring an end to this conservative tea party revolution that we’ve seen over the last two years,” Russo warns. “That’s their goal: Not just to win in Wisconsin, but to stamp out the tea party movement and fiscal conservatives all over the country. They want to set an example in Wisconsin so that we’ll stop trying in Ohio and Michigan and Pennsylvania and the other states.” In light of those high stakes, Tea Party Express is airing television ads and a get-out-the-vote campaign on behalf of state Supreme Court Justice David T. Prosser Jr., who is up for re-election Tuesday. Conservatives on the court, including Prosser, hold a 4-3 advantage over the court’s liberal justices. But if the unions succeed in getting environmental activist JoAnne Kloppenburg elected instead, Democrats will seize control of the court. That could be critical, because the court is expected to rule on a wave of legal challenges coming from opponents of Walker’s controversial budget-repair bill. What the skirmishes in Wisconsin ultimately may decide is whether reforms such as those the Republican governor has championed are politically viable or carry too high a price tag at the ballot box. A recent Rasmussen Reports survey shows that Walker’s popularity with voters has taken a significant hit since he rolled out his plan to balance Wisconsin’s budget. According to that March survey, 48 percent of Wisconsin voters now say they “strongly disapprove” of Walker’s performance. One sign of the growing national importance of the donnybrook in Wisconsin: Palin weighed in on Thursday, posting an endorsement of Prosser on her Facebook page. “Wisconsin, please remember to vote for Justice Prosser on April 5,” she wrote. Russo says of Palin: “She’s been a big help in crystallizing the issues for Americans. She’s done it consistently and did it again yesterday with her endorsement.” Prosser also has the endorsement of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel newspaper. But Russo tells Newsmax that Republicans, who perhaps thought the battle against union entitlements had already been won in Wisconsin, are playing catch-up in the contest. More information on the fight over the fate of the state’s Supreme Court is available at TeaPartyExpress.org. “These statewide elections are notorious for very low voter turnout,” Russo tells Newsmax. “So the motivated voters will make the decision. And right now we’ve been fearful that the motivated voters have been the left-wing unions and their supporters in the state. So that’s the biggest fear we have: That the people of Wisconsin are on our side, but the people who vote on Tuesday aren’t on our side.” In response, Russo’s organization is handing out phone lists that conservative activists are using to contact Wisconsin conservatives and urge them not to be complacent, and to turn out and vote. Tuesday’s campaign is just one front in the ongoing battles over collective-bargaining rights and public-worker entitlements in Wisconsin. Other elements include: GOP State Sen. Van Wanggaard of Racine, Wis., has asked prosecutors to investigate a union campaign that threatened to boycott businesses who fail to actively oppose Walker’s initiatives. Letters circulated by AFSCME Council 24 to local businesses state: “Failure to do so will leave us no choice but [to] do a public boycott of your business. And sorry, neutral means ‘no’ to those who work for the largest employer in the area and are union members.” Jim Haney, outgoing head of the Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce organization, told the Journal Sentinel: “It’s kind of like the old protection racket.” In addition to Kapanke, as many as 15 other senators could face recall elections in Wisconsin. It does not appear that there will be enough support to qualify for a recall challenge against the eight Democrats eligible for recall who fled the state in a bid to thwart Walker’s bid to limit the collective bargaining power of public-employee unions, Russo says. A recent poll by liberal The Daily Kos shows a generic Democrat leading Kapanke by 55 percent to 41 percent. On Friday, Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi denied the state’s request to stop a hearing on whether a preliminary injunction should be granted to block Walker’s budget reform law. On Thursday, Sumi ruled that the law had not begun to take effect and therefore could be subject to an injunction. The key question in the lawsuit against Walker’s reforms, which could be headed to the state’s Supreme Court for a final adjudication soon, is whether the sudden passage of the measure violated the state’s open-meetings statute. Rob Marchant, Wisconsin’s chief clerk, testified Friday that it is a common practice in the state for meetings to occur with less than the normal 24-hour notice requirement. Wisconsin’s open-meetings law required advance notice of all public sessions. But legislative rules can prevail over those rules, when the meeting involves committees of the Legislature, sources say.

Prosser Wins Wisconsin Court Race
http://www.newsmax.com/Insi...al&promo_code=C187-1

quote MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A conservative justice has weathered attempts to link him to Wisconsin's governor and a divisive union rights law and won re-election, according to county vote totals finalized Friday. Tallies from each of the state's 72 counties show Justice David Prosser defeated challenger JoAnne Kloppenburg by 7,316 votes. State election officials said they will wait to declare an official winner until the deadline for Kloppenburg to seek a recount passes. She has until Wednesday to call for one. If she does, the state would pay for it because the margin between the candidates is less than a half of a percent of the total 1,497,330 votes cast. Neither campaign had any immediate comment. Kloppenburg faced an uphill fight against Prosser, a 12-year court veteran and former Republican Assembly speaker. But she got a boost in the weeks leading up to the election as her supporters worked to turn anger against Gov. Scott Walker and the union rights law against Prosser. The law, which Walker wrote, strips most public sector workers of nearly all their collective bargaining rights. It also requires them to contribute more to their health care and pensions, changes that will result in an average 8 percent pay cut. Walker, a Republican, has said the law is needed to help balance the state budget and give local governments the flexibility they need to absorb deep cuts in state aid. Democrats see it as an assault on unions, which are among the party's strongest campaign allies. Tens of thousands of people converged on the state Capitol for weeks to protest and minority Democrats in the Senate fled the state in a futile attempt to block a vote in that chamber. The law is currently tied up in the courts and hasn't taken effect. Those legal challenges look destined for the state Supreme Court. The law's opponents hoped a Kloppenburg upset over Prosser would tilt the court to the left and set the stage for the justices to overturn the measure. Turnout in the April 5 election shattered expectations. Unofficial returns from election night initially showed Kloppenburg had bested Prosser by 204 votes. Kloppenburg declared victory on April 6, but the next day the Waukesha County clerk announced she had forgotten to save 14,000 votes on her computer. Those new votes tipped the election to Prosser, giving him an unofficial 7,500 vote lead. The clerk, Kathy Nickolaus, worked for Prosser as a member of the Assembly Republican caucus in the mid-1990s. Democrats have demanded she resign, and authorities launch an investigation into why she didn't immediately report the votes. State election officials are reviewing Nickolaus' operations, but she has refused to step down, saying she made an honest mistake.

quote GREEN BAY, Wis. (WTAQ) - The “Recall Dave Hansen” committee says it has collected enough signatures to initiate a new election. The group says it has collected 15,000 signatures. Dave Vander Leest from Green Bay has been leading the charge and expects to file the paperwork next week. Vander Leest says he started the recall effort because he was “irritated that they were making heroes out of Senators leaving the state and going AWOL.” Vander Leest says Tea Party groups along with conservative minded people helped with the effort. To initiate a new recall election, the group needed 13,852, which represents 25% of the number of people who voted in the last election. State Senator Dave Hansen was one of eight democrats who left the state in order to prevent a vote of a budget bill that would take away public workers collective bargaining rights. There are efforts to recall 8 Democrats and 8 Republicans across the state. The petition due date with the Government Accountability Board is April 26th.

http://wtaq.com/news/articl...as-15000-signatures/

btw Dave Hansen is not my state senator. Green Bay is split between two state senators. Frank Lasee is mine. (pronounced la - say)

^^^^That'll be interesting to see how it all works out in the next 4 years.^^^^

Someone broke into the "Recall Dave Hansen" office last night and stole things including petitions.

http://www.greenbaypressgaz...679/1978&located=rss

They also stole t-shirts so it must have been someone who was pro-recall Dave Hansen

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-16-2011).]

Update:
(just in)

quote The Wisconsin Supreme Court handed Republican Gov. Scott Walker a major victory on Tuesday, ruling that a polarizing union law that strips most public employees of their collective bargaining rights could take effect.

http://www.jsonline.com/new...itics/123859034.html

Excellent, now we can knock those teachers wages down to where they belong, say, $10 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. Can't save retirement on $10/hour? Tough, should have thought about that before getting a teaching degree and starting a career in teaching.

Next they should go after the police and fire workers, there's an even bigger money hole than the teachers ever were.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Excellent, now we can knock those teachers wages down to where they belong, say, $10 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. Can't save retirement on $10/hour? Tough, should have thought about that before getting a teaching degree and starting a career in teaching.

How much money does an out of work teacher make teaching?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Excellent, now we can knock those teachers wages down to where they belong, say, $10 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. Can't save retirement on $10/hour? Tough, should have thought about that before getting a teaching degree and starting a career in teaching. Next they should go after the police and fire workers, there's an even bigger money hole than the teachers ever were.

Bullshit! Where in this law does it reduce their pay? So they have to actually contribute a just amount to their retirement and benefits. The law didn't take away their right to bargain for higher wages. The law simply took away the unions ABILITY (NOT RIGHT) to STRONG ARM the government (the taxpayers of Wisconsin) into giving the state workers a free ride on their benefits and gave back some power to the government (taxpayers) to control some of these outrageous demands that the unions think they are entitled to. They are entitled to what their employer (THE TAXPAYERS OF WISCONSIN THROUGH THEIR REPRESENTATIVES) feel that is a fair and just benefit and wage package. If that state employee doesn't like his/her benefits package, they can always find some job in the private sector that gives better benefits and some times pay.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 06-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by aceman: Bullshit! Where in this law does it reduce their pay?

Ask him when he is sober, .

quote Originally posted by aceman: Bullshit! Where in this law does it reduce their pay? So they have to actually contribute a just amount to their retirement and benefits. The law didn't take away their right to bargain for higher wages. The law simply took away the unions ABILITY (NOT RIGHT) to STRONG ARM the government (the taxpayers of Wisconsin) into giving the state workers a free ride on their benefits and gave back some power to the government (taxpayers) to control some of these outrageous demands that the unions think they are entitled to. They are entitled to what their employer (THE TAXPAYERS OF WISCONSIN THROUGH THEIR REPRESENTATIVES) feel that is a fair and just benefit and wage package. If that state employee doesn't like his/her benefits package, they can always find some job in the private sector that gives better benefits and some times pay.

Ah, Mr. Stalker I

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Ah, Mr. Stalker I

You did not answer the question.
What did you do ?
Deflection ?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Excellent, now we can knock those teachers wages down to where they belong, say, $10 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. Can't save retirement on $10/hour? Tough, should have thought about that before getting a teaching degree and starting a career in teaching. Next they should go after the police and fire workers, there's an even bigger money hole than the teachers ever were.

Then we will have no protection and ill educated children, kind of like we have now.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: You did not answer the question. What did you do ? Deflection ?

What question? You just made a statement implying that I'm drunk. In any case, your writings have begun to resemble the ranting ramblings of someone only somewhat coherent, so it's not likely I'll be answering any questions from a intoxicated stalker.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Excellent, now we can knock those teachers wages down to where they belong, say, $10 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. Can't save retirement on $10/hour? Tough, should have thought about that before getting a teaching degree and starting a career in teaching. Next they should go after the police and fire workers, there's an even bigger money hole than the teachers ever were.

The change in the law does NOT affect wages. They can still collectively bargain for wages.

They still get benefits. They still get retirement. They just have to pay more and even at that they still pay quite a bit less than the private sector employees. As a Wisconsin taxpayer I have the right to complain about the taxes I pay going for benefit packages. I don't get a retirement package paid for by others. Why are public employees more important than I am? Why is it more important for public employees to retain their elite benefits when taxpayers like myself are hurting so much financially? Why do you expect me to suffer even more when the public employees are so protected in their jobs even if they are crappy employees? Where are my protections? Where is my retirement package paid for by taxpayers? I'b be thrilled if I could get a retirement package anywhere NEAR as good as the package these public sector people get even if I had to pay HALF or even more. I put into my 401k....I get a small contribution from my employer and I'm still paying into my retirement over 90%. 90%!!!!!! These people are now required to pitch in less than 15 % and they are crying. Equality? I don't think so.

And just a reminder. Collective bargaining is not a RIGHT.....it's a privilige. If it was a 'right', we all would have that right. Get that straight.

Mark the happier Wisconsin taxpayer.