This is true. Who do you think pays all the government salaries? We the taxpayers do. What happens as the number of government jobs increases? They need more of our money to pay for their salaries and benefits. What happens when we are being taxed too much? That is when we have a revolt. That is what is going on now. Government employees cannot expect the taxpayers to do without so that they can keep all of their benefits. This system is unsustainable. There has to be some cuts made to bring things under control. If that means that they pay for part of their retirement or healthcare, like everyone else does in the private sector, so be it. We also can't compare the Walmart workers to the highly skilled and trained union or non union workers of an automobile production company. The Walmart workers are more easily replaced because they don't require as much training and it is cheaper to replace them. It's a bad situation for them but most know what the situation is when they go to work there. There are plenty of articles about the employees, OSHA and the ACLU suing Walmart. That just goes to show that the workers do have some recourse if they are wronged by an employer like Walmart, even if they don't belong to a union.
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08:21 PM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
If the State of Wisconsin flounders in the next couple of years then the political climate will change. There will be a lot of 'I told you so' going around. Then the new politicians can change the law and give collective bargaining back to the public unions. If the State of Wisconsin soars, then what? Yeah....more 'I told you so'....
Things will settle out one way or another. The curret path is unacceptable. Time for a change. Governor Scott Walker is our change. If he fails, we go back during the next election. If he succeeds, he stays in.
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10:00 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 32980 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
If the State of Wisconsin flounders in the next couple of years then the political climate will change. There will be a lot of 'I told you so' going around. Then the new politicians can change the law and give collective bargaining back to the public unions. If the State of Wisconsin soars, then what? Yeah....more 'I told you so'....
Things will settle out one way or another. The curret path is unacceptable. Time for a change. Governor Scott Walker is our change. If he fails, we go back during the next election. If he succeeds, he stays in.
Maybe, maybe not. I agree for the most part but, Wisconsin does not stand alone in their own economy. We all stand together. Wisconsin is trying to take some needed steps but, I don't know that it will be enough, the pain will need to be shared by all. Wisconsin is simply the tip of the spear.
------------------ Ron
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10:12 PM
Mar 9th, 2011
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
You can't change facts. Sorry. Changing history might be a part of your playbook but it still doesn't change what the actual facts are. Seems like pointing out the truth is offensive to you. Sorry you can't handle that. As for being uncivil, I'd like to know what you think was uncivil. You've had several members here post that they couldn't find anything that would be considered uncivil by normal standards so now it's time for you to step up and point this out. If I indeed was being uncivil then I will apologize....something that you don't seem to be able to do.
Ok....ball is in your court. Show us all and I'll apologize. Otherwise stop your crying.
Mark
Well then, let's start with your first reply to me, from page 7:
quote
He's not trying to destroy unions. Get your facts straight. Do your own research and stop listening to the union leaders and you'll be suprised at the truth. He's handling the state just like he did Milwaukee County when he was my County Executive. He didn't break any unions....he did what was necessary to balance his ...
As if YOU have a monopoly on the facts. Guess what? YOU DON'T. Not a great way to get started.
Next, from page 12:
quote
Once again, you failed in your argument. Try again. State the facts and stop twisting the words to your liking...
Again you and your monopoly on the facts.
Next, from page 12:
quote
Wow....facts are wrong? Maybe you need to do a little reading. You need to find out for yourself what the facts are before you shoot yourself in the foot.
Once again...
Next, from page 12:
quote
Well, I did a little looking around and found a quick little Wikipedia link....nothing special but it does explain the basics of " Collective-bargaining AGREEMENTS " Not rights.
So....that's what I have. I have facts. You have opinion. Get it straight. Do a little research before making yourself look stupid....again. Maybe time for a civics lesson? Are you only 19 too? Collective bargaining is a right under the First Amendment? Heh....way to go there, sport. Pull out your personal copy of the Constitution and go over the Amendments and actually read what they say. You'll be very suprised, apparently. And that's not just an opinion.
My 'opinion' ( backed up with facts ) is supported by the Constitution. What have you got? ( without the childish addition )
Mark
Here is the beginning of the "stupid" attacks... And yet again, you believe you have the only monopoly on the facts. You just simply don't. And, by the way, what do you think WTF means? I spelled it out, but plenty of people have posted it here. Are they all childish as well? Are you?
Next, also from page 12:
quote
I didn't realize that supporting a discussion with facts and calling out liberals required being chastised ( you might want to check your spelling, too ). I've been civil to you but apparently you can't handle the truth. Just do a little reading somewhere other than the liberal blogs and you might actually learn something.
Have a nice day.
Mark
*sigh* and, one more time, you believe deep in your heart, no doubt, that you are the only person in posession of the facts. Again, wrong. Newflash: your opinion does not constitute a fact. Even if you really really believe it.
Next, also page 12:
quote
Yeah....if you actually look at the context the 'right' was an executive order. It was a law that was put in place. Laws can also be taken away and that doesn't make it a Constitutional right which you have been arguing. You threw out your own argument again...
talk about lookung STUPID!!!
Maybe you need a civics class or something....
....and you don't?!? As for spelling errors, you make them too. I tend to overlook them, unless it gets in the way of understanding someone's point.
So there you have it. You began with the disparaging comments, and I responded in the same vein. Doesn't taste good, does it?
Now, would you like to start over, in a more civil tone? Or do you prefer more of the same? I am game for either.
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02:52 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
In each and every one of those quotes, you were either offended by my suggestion that you aren't using facts....or I returned your statement about looking stupid just as you had used those exact words just before those posts.
I don't have a monopoly on facts. I wa sjust expressing my wishes that you try and use them. You might be enlightened.
That's all you have for an argument? Sad that you feel that's uncivil. I didn't even bring up uncivil when you posted what you thought made me look stupid, in your own words, but you feel it's uncivil for me to use your own words back at you? Doesn't make for any kind of argument other than to show that you cannot distinguish between your actions and mine. Doesn't taste good, does it? By the way, I already apologized for the spelling error.....but I see that you failed to notice that.
Now....when you are criticizing me I'd like to suggest that you take a look at your own posts first to make sure you aren't sticking your foot in your mouth again. Once again, you failed. I guess you aren't game for either, yet. A little more studying is evidently needed...
Mark
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08:57 AM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
It looks like they're splitting hairs to make a political point. (on both sides) Yes, the pension money is just deferred compensation, but since they're public employees, yes, the state is paying that money.
If your income is $50k a year, plus you get $10k a year put in a pension plan, that's no different than getting $60k per year and putting $10k in a 401k, etc. But in the case of a public employee, the money - all of it, both compensation and benefits - comes from the state. Regardless of it being called a state funded pension or deferred compensation, the state pays the same in total compensation.
This is one reason I don't like pension plans. Ask any GM employee what happened to their pension when Obama fixed GM. The money may belong to the employee, but it's still in control of the company. Get rid of the pension altogether and invest it yourself where you have control. (or at least a better illusion of control)
It does sound like asking for the teachers to contribute to their pension will equate into a pay cut. It's all about how much the state (or any employer) pays out in wages and benefits combined.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-09-2011).]
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12:33 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Lt. Gov. Rebecca Kleefisch of Wisconsin tells Newsmax that Republican leaders are growing tired of being misled by Democrats, but adds that there are signs that some of the state’s 14 AWOL Democrats have reached the breaking point and soon may come back home.
The Democratic senators are facing increasing pressure after fleeing the state three weeks ago in a desperate bid to block a budget-reform bill Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker backs. Walker’s bill would increase public workers’ contributions to their healthcare and pension plans and would prohibit unions from bargaining collectively when it comes to entitlements.
Walker, meanwhile, went on the offensive on Monday, blasting Democratic Minority Leader state Sen. Mark Miller for “misleading” the public.
“It’s sort of like Charlie Brown and Lucy when they’re playing the football game,” Kleefisch tells Newsmax. “Every time the Democrat senators who are reasonable think that there’s an opportunity to return, and a path has been forged so that they can come back to Madison and vote, it seems like Senator Miller is pulling the football out from underneath them.”
For his part, Walker suggested that Miller, who wrote a letter Sunday asking for face-to-face negotiations to take place somewhere along the Illinois-Wisconsin border, may no longer be in control of his own caucus.
“Senator Miller is misleading the public, just like he misled us,” said Walker, who added that Miller already has been involved in face-to-face negotiations with his administration.
The impasse in Wisconsin has emerged as a national political issue, following a remark by President Barack Obama to a local television station charging that Walker appeared to be engaged in an “assault on unions.”
Several critical swing states likely to determine the outcome of the 2012 presidential race — Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio — are embroiled in controversial efforts to remain solvent by scaling back public-sector entitlements.
Walker’s tough rhetoric Monday marked a distinct shift. As recently as Friday, the governor told Newsmax: “We haven’t lashed out at opponents. We haven’t personalized this debate.”
One reason Walker may be ratcheting up the pressure: Several of the absent Democrats are now facing recall-petition drives in their home districts.
If their opponents can gather enough signatures, those Democrats will face early re-election battles. Fending off recall petition drives from Illinois would be difficult, if not impossible.
That may mean the Democratic senators may not be able to stay away much longer.
Sen. Bob Jauch, one of the Democrats hiding in Illinois, addressed that issue Monday.
“There is an end coming to this,” Jauch told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. “There has to be.”
Jauch told the newspaper that Democrats eventually would have to return to their districts to fight the looming recall battles.
"My wife brought me home another two weeks of clean clothes, but I told her I hoped I didn't have to use it,” Jauch said, according to the Journal Sentinel. “At some point this transition has to occur."
Formal recall-petition drives have been launched against all 16 Wisconsin state senators who are vulnerable to early elections. The recalls are split 50-50 between Democrats and Republicans.
In her exclusive interview, Kleefisch told Newsmax.TV that she and Walker “absolutely” know that some AWOL Democrats are on the verge of coming back to the state.
She told Newsmax Walker seeks “real negotiations,” and questions whether Miller’s letter, which some in the Wisconsin media characterized as a sincere effort to find reasonable compromise, “was necessarily written in good faith.”
“While it seems very encouraging by just reading it,” Kleefisch said, “we know that Senator Mark Miller was actually partaking in at least one of those negotiations. So the negotiations have been going on for some time now."
Asked whether she sees signals that one or more Democratic senators are on the verge of returning to break the impasse on Walker’s budget repair bill, Kleefisch replied: “Absolutely I do. And those are the reasonable senators that we continue to negotiate with, and the ones who keep having the football pulled out from under them.
“What’s frustrating here is it seems that every time they return to Senator Miller with ideas on how to return to Madison so they can vote like their constituents want them to, Senator Miller seems to agree to it for a little while, and then after he has spoken with union leaders seems to change his mind,” she said.
“So what I’m wondering is, Who’s in charge of Mark Miller’s soul here? Is it Mark Miller, or is it somebody else?”
Miller fired back Monday afternoon, stating: “Senate Democrats remain united in our fight to protect the priorities of the people of Wisconsin and committed to showing the kind of responsible leadership necessary to get the job done.
“We have made numerous attempts to reach out to Republicans,” Miller said, adding, “I would hope as we move forward, the governor and Republican leaders will spend less time at press conferences and more time on the phone or at meetings pursuing a resolution to our differences.”
Acting in good faith to resolve differences is precisely what Kleefisch said Miller has failed to do.
“We were so trying to avoid layoffs here,” Kleefisch told Newsmax. “But our Democrat 14 need to return to vote on this budget repair bill in order to save those jobs.”
Unless those Democrats return, Kleefisch said, 1,500 state workers will receive pink slips within 30 days.
Walker told Newsmax on Friday that the required notifications of possible layoffs have gone out to the unions.
Kleefisch told Newsmax she’s undaunted by polls that vary widely based on how they are worded, but which generally appear to support workers’ efforts to bargain collectively in Wisconsin.
“No, I think there’s a lot of confusion out there about what collective bargaining actually does,” she said. “And let me give you an example of why it’s so financial with facts and figures behind it to us.
“Right now through collective bargaining our teachers’ union employees, some of them, are forced onto the teachers’ union health insurance program. If they simply switched to the state health-insurance program, it would save $68 million. That’s $68 million that could go back into schools.”
The poll that really mattered, she said, was conducted on Nov. 2.
“That’s the validation that we need, the electoral mandate, where voters went out in droves to tell Governor Walker that they wanted their budget balanced with no tax increases.
She also had some friendly advice for President Barack Obama, who recently warned the nation’s governors not to “vilify” or “denigrate” their public employees.
“I think that the president, with all due respect, is looking at $14 trillion in debt, and should probably focus on that instead of the problems Wisconsin potentially faces,” she said, “because Governor Walker has taken care of those handily.”
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-09-2011).]
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04:51 PM
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
Facts? WHAT FACTS? It is your OPINION that collective bargaining rights are privilages. It is my OPINION that collective bargaining rights are rights protected under the First Amendment of the Constitution, freedom of speech and/or freedom of assembly. This may one day be adjudicated in the courts. Until then, OPINIONS ONLY.
My opinion is supported by the Constitution. What the f*ck have you got???
quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
In the international labour movement, the freedom of association is a right identified under international labour standards as the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain. Freedom of association, in this sense, is recognized as a fundamental human right by a number of documents including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and International Labor Organization Convention C87 and Convention C98 -- two of the eight fundamental, core international labour standards. 'Freedom of association' can also refer to legal bans on private contracts negotiated between a private employer and their employees requiring workers at a particular workplace to join a union as a term and condition of employment. Supporters of this sort of private freedom of association claim that the right to join a union incorporates a right not to join a union. In the United States, the term 'right to work' is more common for this type of law.
Isn't one of the things Walker is wanting to do is make it so that you don't have to join a union to work a specific job? That alone could be a death knell to collective bargaining.
**That protection is found in the National Labor Relations Act, which is constitutional, but is subject to the whims of Congress (as in the limitations imposed by the Taft-Hartley Act); and it does not apply to government employees or the employees of railroads and airlines. The constitutional rights to free speech and assembly don't necessarily cover collective bargaining - unfortunately.**
**"In 1962, President Kennedy signed an executive order giving public-employee unions the right to collectively bargain with federal government agencies."
Federal employee unions may bargain with the federal agencies, but wages and benefits are not on the table. These are reserved to congressional action. Federal employee unions primarily insert themselves in defending against terminations and other disciplinary actions. Bargaining sessions on contracts pretty much deal with minor workplace practices.**
That last quote is 2 separate posts in that thread. Very interesting, that even members of the Democratic underground web forum don't even think that collective bargaining is a protected right.
SECTION 1. (a) Employees of the Federal Government shall have, and shall be protected in the exercise of, the right, freely and without feel of penalty or reprisal, to form, join and assist any employee organization or to refrain from any such activity. Except as hereinafter expressly provided, the freedom of such employees to assist any employee organization shall be recognized as extending to participation in the management of the organization and acting for the organization in the capacity of an organization representative, including presentation of its views to officials of the executive branch, the Congress or other appropriate authority. The head of each executive department and agency (hereinafter referred to as "agency") shall take such action, consistent with law, as may be required in order to assist that employees in the agency are apprised of the rights described in this section, and that no interference, restraint, coercion or discrimination is practiced within such agency to encourage or discourage membership in any employee organization.
Wait for it...
RIGHT TO WORK!!
quote
SEC. 2. When used in this order, the term "employee organization" means any lawful association, labor organization, federation, council, or brotherhood having as a primary purpose the improvement of working conditions among Federal employees or any craft, trade or industrial union whose membership includes both Federal employees and employees of private organizations; but such term shall not include any organization (1) which asserts theright to strike against the Government of the United States or any agency thereof, or to assist or participate in any such strike, or which imposes a duty or obligation to conduct, assist or participate in any such strike, or (2) which advocates the overthrow of the constitutional form of Government in the United States, or (3) which discriminates with regard to the terms or conditions of membership because of race, color, creed or national origin.
It even goes on to specify what labor organizations can bargain for and, wages and benefits aren't included, but the EO is really long and I lost where they are at. I will go look it back up later today.
Ok, I'm done.
I really don't even know why we're talking about this. This EO deals with FEDERAL employees and private contractors that have dealings with the FEDERAL Gov't. It has nothing to do with STATE employees and private contractors dealing with the STATES. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean there's a lot of mud slinging and my shirt is still clean. Am I not being crass enough? Am I posting too many facts and not enough opinions?
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07:11 PM
PFF
System Bot
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
MADISON, Wis. — Republicans pushed a provision stripping public employees of their collective bargaining rights through the state Senate Wednesday evening after finding a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats.
Other political news of note Senate strikes down GOP, Dem budget bills The Senate has rejected two competing bills to fund the government until the end of the fiscal year, with 11 lawmakers who caucus with Democrats breaking with their party.
Republican senators separated the provision from Gov. Scott Walker's controversial budget bill, removing the requirement that 20 senators be present for a vote on the anti-union measure.
The vote in the Senate was 18-1. Sen. Dale Schultz was the sole no vote. No Democrats were present.
Spectators in the gallery screamed at the Republicans on the floor, "You are cowards."
All 14 Democrats had left the state for Illinois nearly three weeks ago to prevent passage of the overall budget bill, because it contained the anti-union measure.
The Senate is split 19-14 with Republicans in the majority. Because the union provision was part of a budget bill, Republicans in the Senate needed at least 20 senators present for a quorum.
By separating out the anti-union measure, Republicans did not need 20 senators to allow a vote on that piece.
"In 30 minutes, 18 state senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin," Democratic Sen. Mark Miller said in a statement. "Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten."
Walker said in a statement: "The Senate Democrats have had three weeks to debate this bill and were offered repeated opportunities to come home, which they refused. In order to move the state forward, I applaud the Legislature's action today to stand up to the status quo and take a step in the right direction to balance the budget and reform government."
Before the Senate floor vote, Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald read the bill to a hastily created joint conference committee. Rep. Peter Barca, D-Kenosha, objected, saying the committee's meeting was in violation of the state's open meetings law. But Fitzgerald went ahead with the vote, which was seen live on WisconsinEye, and the measure was approved.
Senate Democrats reportedly were meeting to decide how to respond. Some argue that Senate Republicans were violating legislative rules with the vote.
Barca, the Assembly minority leader, said later that he would seek action by the state attorney general, a Republican.
The stand-alone measure now would have to be approved by the Assembly, the lower chamber. The Assembly was not in session Wednesday. Assembly Majority Leader Scott Suder says the chamber would be in session at 11 a.m. Thursday.
The battle over union rights has galvanized protesters in Wisconsin. Up to 70,000 people at a time have rallied in Madison against the measures, and protesters have occupied the Capitol Rotunda, prompting a legal battle over their right to do so.
Stripping out the collective-bargaining provisions into a "non-fiscal" bill raises questions about the governor's and the Republicans' argument that the issue of collective bargaining rights is crucial to the budget.
The state faces a $3.6 billion budget shortfall that Walker points to as the rationale for many of the cuts he's proposing. But not everything he wants to do would save the state money.
Walker wants to repeal an inmate early release program enacted two years ago and revert to a 1999 truth-in-sentencing law he sponsored as an Assembly member that requires prisoners to serve their entire sentence without time taken off for good behavior. Former Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle had touted the early release program as a way to save money and relieve prison crowding.
Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne, who was the deputy corrections secretary when the early release law was implemented, said the potential financial savings could be immense but the biggest benefit was to the prison environment.
Walker is also targeting a high-profile program in which eighth or ninth grade students who sign a pledge to get good grades and be good citizens are guaranteed a place in a Wisconsin college or university and some financial aid. The first students who signed the pledge will begin college this fall and once fully operational, more than 70,000 students could be a part of it.
Under Walker's proposal, no more students could sign up for the program after this year.
Walker would also gut funding for public financing for Supreme Court campaigns, a law passed in 2009. Both candidates in the April 5 election are taking the public financing and abiding by the spending limits under the new law. Walker wants to make it a voluntary tax return check-off, which would limit the amount of public financing available.
The governor would also eliminate a 2009 law mandating insurers cover contraception, something supporters had fought for years to get passed. And, he would do away with a 21-year-old law requiring Wisconsin communities to recycle. That program was started under a Republic predecessor, Gov. Tommy Thompson.
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08:31 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
The saying "Just becuase you can do something doesn't mean you should " comes to my mind. I think it's pretty funny really considering From the State of Wisconsin histry website
quote
PUBLIC EMPLOYEES GAIN PROTECTIONS Wisconsin also led the nation in giving public employees the right of collective bargaining. The nation’s largest public employee union, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was founded in Madison in 1936; throughout the state, public employees organized, even though they had no legal protections. Nonetheless, public workers, like those in Milwaukee regularly showed solidarity in threatening to strike to win fair treatment. Finally in 1959, the State passed the nation’s first comprehensive public employee bargaining law, Section 111.70, which provided the right of collective bargaining to public employees, and also required municipalities, school districts the university system and other public entities to bargain with the unionized workers.
Well, until the next election and the Supreme Court gets to it, I guess it's a done deal. First of all, I thought it stunk that the firemen and police were left out of the blood-letting; are they not also part of "the problem?" Secondly, I'm going to grab some pop-corn and see how many Wisconsin jobs will be created by this action.
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10:01 PM
Mar 10th, 2011
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
In each and every one of those quotes, you were either offended by my suggestion that you aren't using facts....or I returned your statement about looking stupid just as you had used those exact words just before those posts.
You are a flat-out, bald-faced LIAR. YOU were the first person to use the word "stupid" in a post, not me. It is right here, from page 7 onward.
quote
I don't have a monopoly on facts. I wa sjust expressing my wishes that you try and use them. You might be enlightened.
I referred to the US Constitution in my argument. That you disagree with my interpretation is pretty obvious. But don't you dare try to claim I don't use facts, as if you are the only one doing it.
quote
That's all you have for an argument? Sad that you feel that's uncivil. I didn't even bring up uncivil when you posted what you thought made me look stupid, in your own words, but you feel it's uncivil for me to use your own words back at you? Doesn't make for any kind of argument other than to show that you cannot distinguish between your actions and mine. Doesn't taste good, does it? By the way, I already apologized for the spelling error.....but I see that you failed to notice that.
Now....when you are criticizing me I'd like to suggest that you take a look at your own posts first to make sure you aren't sticking your foot in your mouth again. Once again, you failed. I guess you aren't game for either, yet. A little more studying is evidently needed...
Mark
I posted all your responses to me. Re-posting all my posts as well as all your posts would have wasted a lot of space. I indicated what page your responses were on. Mine were right before yours. Are you incapable of clicking on the little page number buttons at the bottom of the screen? All the information is right there, just a mouse-click away.
So, the answer to my question - do you want to start over in a more civil tone? - is a resounding HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!
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01:18 AM
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
Well, I think this pretty much confirms what we all knew from the beginning... this was never about balancing the budget, and was ALWAYS about crushing unions.
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01:51 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I love it. Democrats yelling foul for Republicans pulling the same things they and Obama pull every week. Hope the Democrats hiding out feel good now, lol.
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07:41 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
I posted all your responses to me. Re-posting all my posts as well as all your posts would have wasted a lot of space. I indicated what page your responses were on. Mine were right before yours. Are you incapable of clicking on the little page number buttons at the bottom of the screen? All the information is right there, just a mouse-click away.
So, the answer to my question - do you want to start over in a more civil tone? - is a resounding HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!
So....what you are crying about is being told that you look stupid.....is that it? I don't see where I called you stupid.....just that you look stupid.
That's what you are whining about? Wow.....with your thick skin from being a union supporter I would have expected a little more understanding about semantics than that. You were the first one to throw out the " F-Bomb " but that doesn't matter and I really don't care. It didn't offend me at all but caught my attention. Also, if you happened to notice ( do you want me to post the page number so you don't have to look it up yourself? ) I did not reply in kind. So.....you were offended that I said I thought you were looking stupid? Ok..fine. I apologize. Does that make you feel any better?
Now you can go on with your life. I'm going to go have breakfast.
And smile
Mark the proud Governor Walker supporter and awful name caller
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09:29 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
Just to point out.... this is the same thing Obama and the dems did with Health Care. Just rammed it through, but that was OK?? If Wisconsin voters don't agree with this, they can vote for a change, just as what happened last election.
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09:54 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
Just to point out.... this is the same thing Obama and the dems did with Health Care. Just rammed it through, but that was OK?? If Wisconsin voters don't agree with this, they can vote for a change, just as what happened last election.
Stop it! You can't bring up facts! That's not fair!
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10:15 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
The Right to Assemble no matter how much Walker stomps & cries, people will be able to "collectively bargain"
Stomps and cries? You cannot back up that statement because he doesn't stomp and cry. He believes in what he says and carries it out. He's done that over and over in his previous posts and never once 'stomped and cried'. As for his opponents, we have so much video and sound bites already posted that you seem to not want to believe that is what your side is doing.
So, no matter how much the Democrats and union supporters stomp and cry, the public unions have had their collective bargaining priviliges cut back.
Well, I think this pretty much confirms what we all knew from the beginning... this was never about balancing the budget, and was ALWAYS about crushing unions.
If you had actually read (and absorbed) what I posted on page 5, or 6.
I posted articles from the same papers stating that he was doing exactly what he did. You, and the other "anti Walker" folk (not sure what you want to be called) completely ignored it, and skewed what was copied from a reliable LEFT WING PRO UNION source so much that I just gave up. Sometimes it's like talking to a wall. __________________
Here is the scenario in a way you may understand.
The forecaster said that spring storms were coming, and will have tornadoes in them.
You set up a tent.
The forecaster said it really looked like a storm may be headed toward your house
You started grilling.
The forecaster said that their is really a storm coming, IT'S FORMED TORNADOES BEFORE (look up Walkers political career).
You say outside in your tent, grilling your burgers.
The forecaster says that the storm that he said was coming and would have tornadoes has a tornado forming, and it's headed to your neighborhood.
You Get all your neighbors together, and start protesting the tornado, still grilling, and camping mind you. But you call some contractors to see what a cellar would cost you.
The Tornado that you were warned about months ago, and did nothing about hits your tent. Everything you have worked for your entire life is gone all of the sudden.
You start yelling that this was all a surprise, and NOBODY warned you.
Meanwhile, if you had just built a cellar a month ago all of the wind would have just blown by you.
Brad
[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 03-10-2011).]
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11:14 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
As if YOU have a monopoly on the facts. Guess what? YOU DON'T. Not a great way to get started...
I forgot to add: I do not have a monopoly on the facts, but facts don't care who you support. Facts are facts. If you believe that the facts I use don't support your views then I'd suggest looking at it this way:
Your views are not supported by facts.
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11:51 AM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
I forgot to add: I do not have a monopoly on the facts, but facts don't care who you support. Facts are facts. If you believe that the facts I use don't support your views then I'd suggest looking at it this way:
Your views are not supported by facts.
Fisst let me say IMO everyone from the top down need to take cuts...as for facts not everyone in Wisconson and many in other states agree with what went down.
The bad news keeps on coming for Wisconsin Republican Gov. Scott Walker. The results of poll after poll show that his union-busting overreach has backfired in Wisconsin (and that it’s not popular nationally either).
[See photos of the Wisconsin protests.]
The Wisconsin Public Research Institute released a poll over the weekend which showed that 51 percent of Wisconsites somewhat or strongly oppose Walker’s plan to roll back collective bargaining rights and cut public workers’ compensation. More striking is the intensity of the opposition Walker and his plan inspire.
It’s not just that 51 percent oppose the plan, but 42 percent oppose it strongly (9 percent somewhat oppose). And asked if they strongly or somewhat approve or disapprove of Walker’s job performance as governor a remarkable 45 percent strongly disapprove, with another 8 percent somewhat disapproving. His strong approval was 29 percent and his somewhat approve figure is 14 percent.
Another question asks whether Walker should “stand strong” for his plan or should find a way to compromise with the state Democrats and public worker unions. Fully 65 percent favor compromise while 33 percent opt for the “stand strong” position.
According to Ken Goldstein, the University of Wisconsin-Madison political science professor who conducted the poll (the Wisconsin Public Research Institute leans right, but Goldstein is, I think, nonpartisan):
Not surprisingly, this is driven largely by partisan dynamics. About 77 percent of Republicans think the governor should stand strong and 94 percent of Democrats want a compromise. The key here is independents. Independents overwhelmingly want the governor to compromise with 68 percent believing he should do so and 29 percent thinking he should stand strong. Generally speaking it’s a bad thing in politics when independents line up against you by a 68-29 margin. Walker’s got a chance to bend to the will of his constituents, as the 14 state senate Democrats who have fled to Illinois in order to stop Walker’s plan have offered to meet with Walker or his negotiator at the Illinois-Wisconsin state line to talk through an end-game to the stand-off. [See editorial cartoons about the GOP.]
But will Walker? The Wisconsin Public Research Institute poll is the latest in a litany that has (with one or two exceptions) sent the same message regarding his plan, both on state and national levels. Last week Rasmussen, whose results are generally kinder to GOPers than other independent pollsters, found that 57 percent of Wisconsin voters disapprove of Walker, 48 percent strongly and that 56 percent of independent voters disapprove of him. And nationally an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll released last week found that 62 percent found unacceptable the idea of stripping workers of their collective bargaining rights. [Read the U.S. News debate: Should public sector workers have collective bargaining rights?]
So again—will Walker accede to voters’ wishes? It may be that he figures his polls have already taken the hit for making his proposal so he might as well have a victory to show for it rather than both suffer the poll damage and be seen as having lost.
As of today it looks like Walker is trying to portray himself as reasonable and the Democratic state senate leader as being unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate. The question is whether public opinion can be swayed at this point--Walker needs the Democrats to dramatically overplay their hand.
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12:05 PM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
......As of today it looks like Walker is trying to portray himself as reasonable and the Democratic state senate leader as being unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate. The question is whether public opinion can be swayed at this point--Walker needs the Democrats to dramatically overplay their hand.
Well, according to the information that was released Governor Walker was trying to negotiate and the State Democratic Senators were the ones refusing. Again, facts. Governor Walker has been open and trying to get some deals going and has been rebuffed. The Assembly and Senate Republicans said enough is enough and pushed the bill through....as much as they could since the Democrats refuse to either negotiate or return to Wisconsin. They wanted to play hardball....well guess what? They got back what they were trying to dish out.
Who was unreasonable? Hmmm.....Republicans trying to negotiate? Democrats running away to Illinois and refusing to return to vote? Threatening to not return?
Actions speak louder than words....
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12:13 PM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
Oh, by the way. As I had said earlier in this thread, Governor Walker doesn't care about polls. He just gets the job done. When he was the Milwaukee County Executive, his poll numbers were really bad. He still did his job as promised. He laid out his plan and then implemented it. He was re-elected....a Conservative Republican is a overwhelming Democratic county....and a Milwaukee County Board that is almost exclusively liberal democrats. Polls don't mean anything to him. He just does the job no matter how much the pollsters tell him he's awful. Polls bad? Fine....he got re-elected to the same position after the polls said it was over for him. Now he's Governor and he was elected to do the same job for the State of Wisconsin as he has done for Milwaukee County. He ran on his record and won the election. The majority of the taxpayers of this state spoke....and Governor Walker is going to do his job.
Mark the Governor Scott Walker supporter
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12:23 PM
PFF
System Bot
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9884 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
Why I'm Fighting in Wisconsin We can avoid mass teacher layoffs and reward our best performers. But we have to act now. .Article Video Comments (711) more in Opinion ». EmailPrintSave This ↓ More. .Twitter Digg + More close Yahoo! BuzzMySpacedel.icio.usRedditFacebookLinkedInFarkViadeoOrkut Text By SCOTT WALKER In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority.
Ms. Sampson got a layoff notice because the union leadership would not accept reasonable changes to their contract. Instead, they hid behind a collective-bargaining agreement that costs the taxpayers $101,091 per year for each teacher, protects a 0% contribution for health-insurance premiums, and forces schools to hire and fire based on seniority and union rules.
My state's budget-repair bill, which passed the Assembly on Feb. 25 and awaits a vote in the Senate, reforms this union-controlled hiring and firing process by allowing school districts to assign staff based on merit and performance. That keeps great teachers like Ms. Sampson in the classroom.
Most states in the country are facing a major budget deficit. Many are cutting billions of dollars of aid to schools and local governments. These cuts lead to massive layoffs or increases in property taxes—or both.
In Wisconsin, we have a better approach to tackling our $3.6 billion deficit. We are reforming the way government works, as well as balancing our budget. Our reform plan gives state and local governments the tools to balance the budget through reasonable benefit contributions. In total, our budget-repair bill saves local governments almost $1.5 billion, outweighing the reductions in state aid in our budget.
While it might be a bold political move, the changes are modest. We ask government workers to make a 5.8% contribution to their pensions and a 12.6% contribution to their health-insurance premium, both of which are well below what other workers pay for benefits. Our plan calls for Wisconsin state workers to contribute half of what federal employees pay for their health-insurance premiums. (It's also worth noting that most federal workers don't have collective bargaining for wages and benefits.)
For example, my brother works as a banquet manager at a hotel and occasionally works as a bartender. My sister-in-law works at a department store. They have two beautiful kids. They are a typical middle-class Wisconsin family. At the start of this debate, David reminded me that he pays nearly $800 per month for his family's health-insurance premium and a modest 401(k) contribution. He said most workers in Wisconsin would love a deal like the one we are proposing.
The unions say they are ready to accept concessions, yet their actions speak louder than words. Over the past three weeks, local unions across the state have pursued contracts without new pension or health-insurance contributions. Their rhetoric does not match their record on this issue.
Local governments can't pass budgets on a hope and a prayer. Beyond balancing budgets, our reforms give schools—as well as state and local governments—the tools to reward productive workers and improve their operations. Most crucially, our reforms confront the barriers of collective bargaining that currently block innovation and reform.
When Gov. Mitch Daniels repealed collective bargaining in Indiana six years ago, it helped government become more efficient and responsive. The average pay for Indiana state employees has actually increased, and high-performing employees are rewarded with pay increases or bonuses when they do something exceptional.
Passing our budget-repair bill will help put similar reforms into place in Wisconsin. This will be good for the Badger State's hard-working taxpayers. It will also be good for state and local government employees who overwhelmingly want to do their jobs well.
In Wisconsin, we can avoid the massive teacher layoffs that schools are facing across America. Our budget-repair bill is a commitment to the future so our children won't face even more dire consequences than we face today, and teachers like Ms. Sampson are rewarded—not laid off.
Taking on the status quo is no easy task. Each day, there are protesters in and around our state Capitol. They have every right to be heard. But their voices cannot drown out the voices of the countless taxpayers who want us to balance our budgets and, more importantly, to make government work for each of them.
Mr. Walker, a Republican, is the governor of Wisconsin.
Copyright 2011 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved This copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. Distribution and use of this material are governed by our Subscriber Agreement and by copyright law. For non-personal use or to order multiple copies, please contact Dow Jones Reprints at 1-800-843-0008 or visit www.djreprints.com
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12:35 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
......As of today it looks like Walker is trying to portray himself as reasonable and the Democratic state senate leader as being unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate. The question is whether public opinion can be swayed at this point--Walker needs the Democrats to dramatically overplay their hand.
quote
Originally posted by Firefox:
Well, according to the information that was released Governor Walker was trying to negotiate and the State Democratic Senators were the ones refusing. Again, facts. Governor Walker has been open and trying to get some deals going and has been rebuffed. The Assembly and Senate Republicans said enough is enough and pushed the bill through....as much as they could since the Democrats refuse to either negotiate or return to Wisconsin. They wanted to play hardball....well guess what? They got back what they were trying to dish out.
Who was unreasonable? Hmmm.....Republicans trying to negotiate? Democrats running away to Illinois and refusing to return to vote? Threatening to not return?
Actions speak louder than words....
Your quote is really putting what I said out of context .I said everyone needs to take a cut. the Quote you posted was from a poll and it showed not everyone in Wis feels like you...........
[This message has been edited by DL10 (edited 03-10-2011).]
Do you realize that the poll is based on 600 people that were reached by phone in the middle of the day right?
It's a "good poll" the sample they took was most likely honest, and fairly taken, but these were people that were not working, and willing to talk on the phone for 30+ minutes answering questions.
Over 100 of those people were not registered to vote. They should not have been counted right off the bat.
According to the poll a majority (I get around 70% average) Strongly approve of the way President Obama is doing his job.
This means that (most likely) close to 70% of the total polled are Democrats, or side with Democratic ideals even though only 40% (ish) claim to side with the Democratic ideals.
I'm not a smart guy when it comes to polls and such, I've done them, answered the phone, and sat there bored answering questions, and in the end I just hung up.
But I have never analyzed them. I can't help but think that I am being bamboozled in some way here.
The Right to Assemble no matter how much Walker stomps & cries, people will be able to "collectively bargain"
Why would you characterize Walker as stomping and crying? He hasn't done anything like that whatsoever.
In fact, it is the DEMOCRATS that have been stomping and crying. And screaming. And name-calling. And breaking the law.
Yet in spite of your blatant mischaracterization, you DO make the point all along:
THE STATE EMPLOYEES AND TEACHERS UNIONS ALREADY HAVE REPRESENTATION.
That is the point. They had:
1. union representation 2. collective bargaining 3. direct representation in the government that makes decisions about their job in the form of democratic representatives.
They are ONLY losing collective bargaining.
They STILL have their unions, AND they still have democratic representatives.
It isn't in ANY way like they have lost ALL their rights and all their power.
This isn't like some private corporation where if you don't have collective bargaining, you essentially have no recourse.
THEY DO have recourse.
What taking collective bargaining away is doing is just bringing SOME sort of a level playing field to the situation, instead of the BLATANT ADVANTAGE they have exploited for decades. Stomp and cry. My goodness. Look at some of the videos. Then talk about who is stomping and crying. Why would you even say such a thing?
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02:41 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Wisconsin lawmakers have voted to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from the state's public workers in one of the strongest blows to the power of unions in years.
The state's Assembly passed Republican Gov. Scott Walker's explosive proposal 53-42 Thursday. The state's Senate approved it the night before after using a procedural move to bypass its AWOL Democrats.
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he'll sign legislation to strip collective bargaining rights from public workers "as quickly as I can legally."
After the bill passed the Assembly Thursday afternoon, Walker's spokesman Cullen Werwie said the governor would not sign it Thursday.
Wisconsin lawmakers have voted to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from the state's public workers in one of the strongest blows to the power of unions in years.
The vote brings a swift end to a standoff over union rights that has rocked Wisconsin and the nation. Tens of thousands of protesters have converged on the state's Capitol for weeks of demonstrations.
The implementation of Walker's proposal will be a key victory for Republicans who have targeted unions amid efforts to slash government spending.
Protests cause temporary delay Debate began in the Assembly after re-energized protests prompted a temporary lockdown and security sweep at the state Capitol, where demonstrators had flocked to try to block representatives' access to their chamber.
Once inside, Republican leaders agreed to two hours of discussion before a vote. But they made clear their intention to stand by Gov. Scott Walker's proposal and his insistence that it's necessary to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.
"This is the first piece of the puzzle," said Republican speaker Jeff Fitzgerald. "We're broke."
Timeline: Wisconsin protests (on this page) The proposal has touched off a national debate over labor rights for public employees and its implementation would be a key victory for Republicans, many of whom have targeted unions amid efforts to slash government spending. Similar bargaining restrictions are making their way through Ohio's Legislature and several other states are debating measures to curb union rights in smaller doses.
Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate unexpectedly move Walker's plan forward Wednesday night. They used a simple procedural move to take all spending issues out of the legislation, which allowed them to pass the measure without Democrats who fled to Illinois three weeks ago in an effort to block a vote.
"We were willing to talk, we were willing to work, but in the end at some point the public wants us to move forward," Walker said during a Thursday appearance in Milwaukee.
'This is wrong, terribly wrong' Democratic Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca told his colleagues back in Madison that "democracy is ceasing to exist in Wisconsin."
"This is wrong, terribly wrong," Barca said.
Video: Barca: Budget bill intended to take away rights (on this page) The state's 14 Senate Democrats fled three weeks ago to Illinois to prevent their chamber from having enough members present to pass the plan. The Senate requires a quorum of 20 to take up any measures that spend money.
But a special committee of lawmakers from the Senate and Assembly voted Wednesday to take all spending measures out of the legislation and the Senate approved it minutes later, 18-1. Republican Sen. Dale Schultz cast the lone no vote.
"I voted my conscience which I feel reflects the core beliefs of the majority of voters who sent me here to represent them," Schultz said in a statement.
Some Democrats argued the special committee violated Wisconsin open meetings laws and that any business conducted there was illegal. The Senate's chief clerk said late Wednesday that the meeting was properly held. Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said he cleared the action with the Legislature's attorneys, the nonpartisan Fiscal Bureau and bill drafters.
Stalemate over in matter of minutes Until Wednesday's stunning vote, it appeared the stalemate would persist until Senate Democrats returned to Madison from their self-imposed exile. But in a matter of minutes, it was over.
The Democrats may now turn renewed energy toward current efforts to recall eight of the Republican state senators. Six Democratic senators also are the target of recall efforts.
Andy Manis / AP Opponents to the governor's bill to eliminate collective bargaining rights for many state workers have retaken over the state Capitol in Madison, Wis., on Wednesday. Democratic Sen. Jim Holperin said Thursday morning that he and his colleagues were either heading back to Wisconsin from Illinois or would be leaving soon. But Holperin said he didn't expect any of them to show up at the Capitol because the Senate isn't scheduled to be in session again until April 5.
"We are going to watch and see how the Assembly unfolds," Sen. Spencer Coggs said Wednesday night. "There will be fireworks. There will be a lot of people at the Capitol and so it will be hard to get in and out of the Capitol."
Walker has repeatedly argued that collective bargaining is a budget issue, because his proposed changes would give local governments the flexibility to confront the budget cuts needed to close the state's $3.6 billion deficit. He has said without the changes, he may have needed to lay off 1,500 state workers and make other cuts to balance the budget.
The measure forbids most government workers from collectively bargaining for wage increases beyond the rate of inflation unless approved by referendum. It also requires public workers to pay more toward their pensions and double their health insurance contribution, a combination equivalent to an 8 percent pay cut for the average worker.
Police and firefighters are exempt.
Union leaders, who were unhappy with previous offers of concessions by Walker, were furious at the Senate's move to push the measure forward with a quick vote. Phil Neuenfeldt, president of the Wisconsin state AFL-CIO, said after Wednesday's vote that Republicans exercised a "nuclear option."
"Scott Walker and the Republicans' ideological war on the middle class and working families is now indisputable," Neuenfeldt said.
Who honestly can't say that they didn't see this coming?
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05:40 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27104 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Since the MSM appears intent on downplaying the growing intimidation and escalating threats of violence around the union power issue, I am reprinting verbatim an email that was sent to Republican senators. The email was signed, but I have deleted the name pending what I hope will be a thorough police investigation. From: XXXX Sent: Wed 3/9/2011 9:18 PM To: Sen.Kapanke; Sen.Darling; Sen.Cowles; Sen.Ellis; Sen.Fitzgerald; Sen.Galloway; Sen.Grothman; Sen.Harsdorf; Sen.Hopper; Sen.Kedzie; Sen.Lasee; Sen.Lazich; Sen.Leibham; Sen.Moulton; Sen.Olsen Subject: Atten: Death threat!!!! Bomb!!!!
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.
WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records. We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent. This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
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09:00 PM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
