quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Gee kinda sounds like Bush and company that you are talking about. Half truths, forged documents, missing microfilm, no WMD, printing the Pariot act in the middle of the night, blaming 9/11 on Iraq, torturing prisoners and hiding the evidence, making soldiers stay in Iraq past their tour, you know... all those things.. You conservatives (not republicans) are all the same, to you there is no middle, there is no "other" side of the story, its all wrong unless its anti-abortion, pro gun, anti-social programs, pro war (no matter what war it is), and generally force my religion on you views. What if I told you I semi supported the war on Iraq, I didn't vote for Bush, I am not all out pro life, and all of these issues are NOT BLACK AND WHITE. I know the dems aren't saints, and I know the rep's aren't demons. But I know that a lot of what you guys are and girl are saying is non sense hidden behind patriotism. Maybe you mean well, but from what I can tell its F*&^ everyone but myself attitudes and no compromise from you. Edited Al Queda to Iraq... My bad.

well i mised your post so i will respond now.

I guess you really have never paid attention to my point of veiw.For some reason you think i'm conservative.I guess you probably think i'm a republican also.Well i'm neither nor am i a liberal or a demecrat.I'm just a capitolist pig who fights for what i want and earns what i get.I'm one man that enjoys the same freedoms as another man that doesn't pay half the taxes as i do.Im also the same man thats pays less taxes than others who also have the same freedom.We all get one vote but some of us have to pay more for it.I don't ever side with anyone jsut because we think alike in a lot of aspects.I'm not sure of the word but it may be libertarian.If that is a actual word i think it would descibe me.I'm not a educated man like some of you guys so i'm guessing at this meaning.
You were almost right when you said to me there is no middle.Close but no cigar.There is no left or right.There is a right and wrong.I don't think it was right to send troops into iraq but i think it's wrong not to put my full support into the program now that it is started.I play to win not just to play.I think it is wrong for congressmen to vote for something and then stab the prez in the back when the polls turn.I think it's wrong for the prez to manipulate anything to the public.I don't think that maybe these things are ok because there is an important reason to do it.It is just black and white every thing is.

"there is no "other" side of the story"
And whats this other side to the story $hlt .You are making my point.Your a bunch of chickenshit dumbasses.One side is so afraid that the other will get ahead so you go to stupid extremes then defend it like your life depends on it.Now when i say you i mean all persons involved.

For the record i am pro gun.All guns.You would all be a lot politer if everyone had a gun.
I'm for making drugs all drugs legal and available to any adult that wants them.Make em safe,cheap and taxable.you abuse you lose.You die good bye.
I don't agree with abortion but i'm not telling you what to do.We got to many dumbass people now.
Why you brought God into this i don't know.I happen to believe in god but i could care less what you believe as a matter of fact i'd rather not know.
Pro war? are you stupid?
Who is really pro war.I don't want to be at war but i know we need a damn intiminating army cause this aint recess with a yard duty.
Do i give a crap about Iraq? not really i would like to help them if we could do it and make a profit but otherwise i say let em rot.Profit doesn't always mean money either.
When we do go to war i think we should just destroy everything and set an example.They behead one hostage we behead one prisoner.If were always fair and reliable then there will be no guessing.What gives us the right to be the policeman?survival gives us the right we are the big fish with the most to lose.We shouldn't ever risk anything.they have nothing to lose thats why they test us so much.They have the results of their tests now were pusses so were open game.
One thing you are right on about is when you said "no matter what war" yeah i think we should win duh!!!
Anti social programs?In the context that you thought i was a republican i think it's funny that they employ most demacrats.
Well i do believe that charities start at home.But i'm more than willing to pay any taxes necesary for education or military.Not real keen on supporting welfare but i do realise that a lot of children through no fault of their own bennefit from it so i don't have a problem with it .I also have no idea how to fix it so i will just pay into it without much complaint.

you were close again with this one............
"maybe you mean well but from what I can tell its F*&^ everyone but myself attitudes and no compromise from you."

I have that attitude but not for everybody else just the ones that are not on team America first.
I don't really mean well.I just mean to win.I'm not judged on what i mean only by what i do.

"hidden behind patriotism.

"Man lets not talk about that one or i'll hurt my computer.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 07-15-2004).]

I also am a Libertarian go here http://www.lp.org/ to find out more about our party. It would seem that some on here confuse intelligence with wisdom you don't have to be too intelligent to be wise. A strong mind has more to do with wisdom than intelligence. Please feel free to make fun of me for my spelling and grammatical errors. I understand. I know it makes you feel superior and if thats important to you go ahead.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I have noticed that on both sides it doesn't matter what facts are.It's just a buffet to get what you want. In this forum it's an all you can eat buffet for free.

Makes for some pretty fat heads.

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Who gives a rats ass about Clinton. That has nothing to do with our conversation. I didn't bite your ridiculous bait, so don't gloat over nothing. Go try to change the subject somewhere else. When you play soccer .. do youmove the goal every time someone tries to score? Because all your doing is shifting the argument.

Oh I see, So you are holding President Bush to one standard and President Clinton to another.

Clinton gives a no-bid contract to Halliburton and its for the betterment of Bosniasl, Bush does it and it's a money making scheme.

Fine, Just as long as I understand.

we should call a halt to the bickering, as least for today, July 15th.......after all today is the offical "Repect Canada Day"

quote Originally posted by Earl: I also am a Libertarian go here http://www.lp.org/ to find out more about our party. It would seem that some on here confuse intelligence with wisdom you don't have to be too intelligent to be wise. A strong mind has more to do with wisdom than intelligence. Please feel free to make fun of me for my spelling and grammatical errors. I understand. I know it makes you feel superior and if thats important to you go ahead.

Well i only spent fiveminutes reading this site.I am impressed with the percentage that agree with.I have not really got into it at any depth so i can't say what it think yet but it looks promising.
i was reading the gun control section and while i agree with it i couldn't help but hear the rebuttle in my head to every point there.Now i'm hearing things..lol.
Here is something i have been wanting for years
"Rather than banning guns, the politicians and the police should encourage gun ownership, as well as education and training programs. A responsible, well-armed and trained citizenry is the best protection against domestic crime and the threat of foreign invasion. America's founders knew that. It is still true today"

thanks for the site i will investagate it.

btw i will not get into a gun debate with any of you .If you must yap about it i will not respond in this thread.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: "I do solemnly swear or affirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign or domestic" It's nice that we can sit back at home and discuss if things are right or if we want to do something. It's nice that they have promised not to sit back at home and question what we send them to do.

Sure is I love it.....Freedom of making your own decisions...and being able to decide yourself WHO IS THE ENEMY

[This message has been edited by MontrealMike (edited 07-15-2004).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: It's nice that we can sit back at home and discuss if things are right or if we want to do something. It's nice that they have promised not to sit back at home and question what we send them to do.

The fact of the matter is, even as soldiers, we are compelled to maintain a moral compass. The old argument that "I was just following orders" no longer applies. Too many atrocities have been attributed to the defense that somebody was, "Just following orders".

It is our civic duty to question the policies of those we put in office. This is the premise of "Checks and Balances", so no one branch (or man) can weild supreme power.

It's a shame that so many people will just follow whoever sits in that chair without asking, "Should we be doing this?"

quote Originally posted by fourfoot23: It's a shame that so many people will just follow whoever sits in that chair without asking, "Should we be doing this?"

Yes I hate people like that with a passion.....THE OLD "I will obey the orders of those above me and the orders of the President of the United States. I live by this code and will die by it if necessary" (Quoted from previous post)

Sure if you have a President that is giving orders to help people by all means do....but if you have a President that is instigating a war that in your personal opinion isn't a war that should start...WHY CONTINUE...it should stop there.

I am not familiar how it works in the United States....but lets say you enrolled in the Army..(imagine that this is before the Iraq war) .....as a personal opinion you don't believe you should go fight in Iraq....but you are in the ARMY are you forced to go??? Or do you have a choice? (Might be a dumb question but hey im Canadian I totally don't know how everything works down south)

Soldiers make the distinction on a personel level as in right here right now.Thats why they receive training on such matters.
Soldiers do not question if we go to war or not.Few want to but they do because it is what they chose to do.They made promises and they keep them.
I don't want stupid mindless soldiers out there.I want guys and gals that have values and care about what they are doing.After all they represent me and you and the choices we have made.But i don't want a breakdown of discipline.

checks and balances?
Thats why we have a congress.Don't like the way things are going then we get new ones.
I question the people behind the desk not the ones in the trench.

quote Originally posted by MontrealMike: Voici une grande ignorante.....je pense qu'il aime être enculer chaque soir par lui meme Mr.Bush .....btw i'm english but many Canadians are bilingual and just cuz you hate France(????) you hate all frenchmen??? A couple of your northern states are filled by french people

If there not a Southern State then... Are they really a REAL STATE..??

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: First they lie about the connection, and now .... they lie about... lying about the connection. You gotta love the Bush administration.

More of the same ol' same ol'...

Lap up anything Michael Moore twists and distorts, and then call Bush a liar when stories are breaking exposing who the real liars are.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/024032.html

quote Originally posted by MontrealMike: I am not familiar how it works in the United States....

Then you NEVER should have started this... Are all Canadian's this one-eyed..??
Please open them BOTH!

quote Originally posted by NotAFieroAnyLonger: Then you NEVER should have started this... Are all Canadian's this one-eyed..?? Please open them BOTH!

quote Originally posted by MontrealMike: ...Sure if you have a President that is giving orders to help people by all means do....but if you have a President that is instigating a war that in your personal opinion isn't a war that should start...WHY CONTINUE...it should stop there. I am not familiar how it works in the United States....but lets say you enrolled in the Army..(imagine that this is before the Iraq war) .....as a personal opinion you don't believe you should go fight in Iraq....but you are in the ARMY are you forced to go??? Or do you have a choice? (Might be a dumb question but hey im Canadian I totally don't know how everything works down south)

That is NOT how it works in the U.S. Here, you VOLUNTEER for SERVICE. Service, do you know what that means? That means you serve someone other than yourself. In this case, your country, your government and your people. You can't pick and choose which operations you "feel" are right and wrong. People who think they should do not last very long in our military. A soldier's personal opinion means absoloutely nothing and they should know this. The military is not a union or a democracy nor should it be.

Back to the topic. Am I going to vote for bush after watching F911? Well, I am going to vote for Bush without watching F911. I keep up with the news, politics and current events. I don't need Moore's movie to know what's going on. That's for people like you who don't keep up and need somebody to fill them in with a fictional "movie". Problem is, Moore knows you don't know the facts so he just tells you what you want to hear, knowing you will not check his accuracy. It's funny that you used the word "truth" in reference to Moore's "documentary". You do realize that the movie has been debunked by multiple, cross-partisan sources, right?

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

quote Originally posted by NotAFieroAnyLonger: Then you NEVER should have started this... Are all Canadian's this one-eyed..?? Please open them BOTH!

try not to generalize, he speaks for himself.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Mike you are not forced to go.When you signed up you promised you would .If they don't want to still they can move to Canada. An army could not function with this attitude.If we thought like that we would need you to defend us.In other words we would be dead meat.

So lets just say that someone might have enrolled in the Army 6 years prior to the Iraq war.....this individual does not support the war in Iraq...he has the choice to go to war or move to Canada?

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I'm for making drugs all drugs legal and available to any adult that wants them.Make em safe,cheap and taxable.you abuse you lose.You die good bye.

No, you don't die. You want to meet one of my family members who abused drugs till it busted a blood vessel in his brain and is now a vegetable for the rest of his life? What a waste and who's going to pay the cost?

If you think Bush is going to legalize drugs, it'll never happen.

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 07-15-2004).]

quote Originally posted by MontrealMike: So lets just say that someone might have enrolled in the Army 6 years prior to the Iraq war.....this individual does not support the war in Iraq...he has the choice to go to war or move to Canada?

Do you understand how the military works? Any country's military?
If you are enlisted in a military, you follow orders or suffer the consequences.

If you had a military full of people who decided before each operation if they supported it or not and that decided if they'd follow orders or not... well, you'd be French.

quote Originally posted by 87GTSleeper: Back to the topic. Am I going to vote for bush after watching F911? Well, I am going to vote for Bush without watching F911. I keep up with the news, politics and current events. http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

I bet you keep informed with Fox News. About the most biased "news" media channel on the air. Yesterday they harped a democrat for about 5 minutes about why Hillary is outraged about not getting to speak at the DNC. Guess what, Hillary isn't mad at all.

I've read though that website. If you read it, it actually confirms a lot of truths in the movie. Oh the part where Moore shows us Gore in Florida on election night happened the morning or day before. So what, who cares. Things like that are inconsequential and don't mean anything.

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 07-15-2004).]

What really shocked me in the movie is how many black people did not get listed in the elections for whatever reason and when they apealed you just see every single one of them getting turned down.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Do you understand how the military works? Any country's military? If you are enlisted in a military, you follow orders or suffer the consequences. If you had a military full of people who decided before each operation if they supported it or not and that decided if they'd follow orders or not... well, you'd be French.

obviously he's not too familiar with the military, but obviously you're not too familiar with the french.....maybe you should both do some homework

quote Originally posted by MontrealMike: SORRY I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT KNOWING ONE OF THE FACTS HOW THE MILITARY WORKS IN THE USA AND THAT THE WORLD IS A MORE DANGEROUS PLACE WITH BUSH AS PRESIDENT

There's a far greater deal than that you don't know about this country and the world if you believe that last part.

quote No comment....

Big surprize there. You obviously have no idea what service is about....at all.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: When we do go to war i think we should just destroy everything and set an example.They behead one hostage we behead one prisoner.

I agree with a lot of what you said in your post above, but I have to disagree here.
When we go to war, it should be with overwhelming force to utterly destroy the enemy as quicky and efficiently as possible, while risking as few allied lives as possible.

If we want to retaliate for them beheading one hostage - we should execute 100, or 1000. None of this give and take crap. They (meaning ALL the people of the world) need to know that if provoked, we will respond with such overwhelming force that you will have damned yourself and your cause. (But we should also let the world know that if they need help and are our ally, we will do anything we can to assist)

If hostages are taken, and the captors demand the release of "political prisoners" or they will kill the hostages, I say we line up all the political prisoners. Kill half of them immediately, and if the hostages are not released, unharmed, in one hour, we kill the remaining political prisoners.

Chances are the hostages would be killed. But how long do you think that taking hostages in demand for people's release would be considered a viable option? You can NEVER negotiate with terrorists. Once you do, you're screwed because they know their methods work.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent. This wasn't really directed at you, pokey, but it all kind of goes together, I guess.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Actually, I do know something about the French. If you couldn't tell that last remark was sarcasm, well, that's your problem.

point taken......there's alot of ignorance in the O/T section. if it was sarcasm, i apologize for mixing you up in it.

quote Originally posted by Tigger: No, you don't die. You want to meet one of my family members who abused drugs till it busted a blood vessel in his brain and is now a vegetable for the rest of his life? What a waste and who's going to pay the cost? If you think Bush is going to legalize drugs, it'll never happen.

i'm real sorry for that person i know many people that have ruined their lives.As a matter of fact i kicked my girlfreind out on the street because of her addiction.I didn't abandon her i gave her a choice.She chose poorly.
Yes it was a waste and who is going to pay for it? Thats a leading question.I am of course.The rest of the tax payers of course.HIs mother who probably outlived her son is going to pay for it OF COURSE.I will assume the responsability of voting for programs and education that the tax on these drugs brings in.In other words i would like these weak people to get strong and not be the ones needing help.Then they to can join the ranks of people that care and provide instead of leach and drain and waste.In fact i'm wanting them to help even while they are drug addicts.They will pay a tax!
So Don't get all mushy with me.Go cry in your closet or pay a hooker to cry on her shoulder.At least as long as you pay her she will care.

When did i say bush was going to legalize drugs.Are you using drugs?When did i say i even liked bush?You guys assume so much.Try reading and comprehending.If your not sure what i meant i will clarify with all politeness.
I stated my opinion in VERY EASY TO READ ENGLISH.
If you want to talk to me do not twist $hit around i won't put up with it.I'm an easy guy and i like to keep it simple.
Simple works.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I agree with a lot of what you said in your post above, but I have to disagree here. When we go to war, it should be with overwhelming force to utterly destroy the enemy as quicky and efficiently as possible, while risking as few allied lives as possible. If we want to retaliate for them beheading one hostage - we should execute 100, or 1000. None of this give and take crap. They (meaning ALL the people of the world) need to know that if provoked, we will respond with such overwhelming force that you will have damned yourself and your cause. (But we should also let the world know that if they need help and are our ally, we will do anything we can to assist) If hostages are taken, and the captors demand the release of "political prisoners" or they will kill the hostages, I say we line up all the political prisoners. Kill half of them immediately, and if the hostages are not released, unharmed, in one hour, we kill the remaining political prisoners. Chances are the hostages would be killed. But how long do you think that taking hostages in demand for people's release would be considered a viable option? You can NEVER negotiate with terrorists. Once you do, you're screwed because they know their methods work. Sorry if I went off on a tangent. This wasn't really directed at you, pokey, but it all kind of goes together, I guess.

Yes... Right.. So they kill one and we kill 1000 then they kill 1000 and we kill 100,000 then they kill 100,000 and we kill 1,000,000..

Yeah George... uhhh which way do I go geroge what way do I go Duhhhhh?

I say get the freak off their lands and leave the freakin nomads alone with their sandcastles and whatever riches lie benieth. MAYBE, just MAYBE!! they will forgive our tresspasses and leave us alone.

quote Originally posted by 87GTSleeper: There's a far greater deal than that you don't know about this country and the world if you believe that last part. Big surprize there. You obviously have no idea what service is about....at all.

First I am sure that their is plenty of other thing that we both don't know about either country......ill leave it at that. I was never interested in the military ....why do wars even have to start.......I perfer to stay at home drive my car, ENJOY LIFE .....a war should only be started if necessary ......WITH EVERY ALLIANCES HELP AND APPROUVAL. This would acknoledge that this war is something that everyone has agreed on and their is no other choice. That would be an ideal situation for initating a war. I am pretty sure most of you can agree with me on this.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I agree with a lot of what you said in your post above, but I have to disagree here. When we go to war, it should be with overwhelming force to utterly destroy the enemy as quicky and efficiently as possible, while risking as few allied lives as possible. If we want to retaliate for them beheading one hostage - we should execute 100, or 1000. None of this give and take crap. They (meaning ALL the people of the world) need to know that if provoked, we will respond with such overwhelming force that you will have damned yourself and your cause. (But we should also let the world know that if they need help and are our ally, we will do anything we can to assist) If hostages are taken, and the captors demand the release of "political prisoners" or they will kill the hostages, I say we line up all the political prisoners. Kill half of them immediately, and if the hostages are not released, unharmed, in one hour, we kill the remaining political prisoners. Chances are the hostages would be killed. But how long do you think that taking hostages in demand for people's release would be considered a viable option? You can NEVER negotiate with terrorists. Once you do, you're screwed because they know their methods work. Sorry if I went off on a tangent. This wasn't really directed at you, pokey, but it all kind of goes together, I guess.

well i don't know if we disagree in princible but you seem a bit more angry than i am or maybe not.Maybe i'm just holding back cause i don't want to scare anyone.

Pokey, I'm not trying to assume anything about you. Drugs come with their problems. You think it should be a right, and I respect your opinon. The point I'm trying to make is the president isn't always going to stand for and agree with every issue we do.

Formula88, tell us who our enemy is? Who are we fighting? "Iraqi's are terrorists" don't cut it. I understand we should go in with an overwhelming force to destroy the enemy. But who's the enemy?

Montreal Mike: You were thrown into lions cage and survived well.
All the dumb blind lions tried to bite and squash you>yet you persisited.

Thats what needs to happen here in the United States.
We need to continue to check and balance the powers withingn Congress and this executive branch.
Both Bush AND Cheny and also get that weasel SOB Tom DeLay

Lantos and Frist also should be brought down.

All these individuals are NOT ABOVE the law. To hell w/ executive privledges and seperation of powers. They have all made money for themselves and beneficiaries thru thier Un-American actions and transgressions.

They've transfered billions folks.
Killed a whole buncha people to.
Now you so-called patriots can go wave an American flag.
OUT>

quote Originally posted by MontrealMike: So lets just say that someone might have enrolled in the Army 6 years prior to the Iraq war.....this individual does not support the war in Iraq...he has the choice to go to war or move to Canada?

well if they been in 6 years they have had plenty of time to op out with out disgrace as they have fulfilled their obligation.
I would say with all honor also.I know there are plenty of military personel here that can tell you how long their stints are.But if your in your in and thats it.We don't tie you down and force you to sign on the dotted line.a forced soldier may barely save his own life a volunteer will kik your ass.
Our military is all volunteer as we speak.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 07-15-2004).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: well if they been in 6 years they have had plenty of time to op out with out disgrace as they have fulfilled their obligation. I would say with all honor also. Our military is all volunteer as we speak.

Thanks for the info

quote (Almost)Originally posted by Formula88: I agree with a lot of what you said in your post above, but I have to disagree here. When we go to war, it should be with overwhelming force to utterly destroy the enemy as quicky and efficiently as possible, while risking as few allied lives as possible. If we want to retaliate for them coming into our country- we should execute 100, or 1000. None of this give and take crap. They (meaning ALL the people of the world) need to know that if provoked, we will respond with such overwhelming force that you will have damned yourself and your cause. (But we should also let the other muslims know that if they need help and are our ally, we will do anything we can to assist) If muslims are so called "freed", and the US demand us to give up or they will attack us, I say we line up all the US citizens we can. Kill half of them immediately, and if the muslims are not released, unharmed, in one hour, we kill the remaining US citizens.

I changed the quote, read it again, do you see what you are saying now? There's no difference between you and the terrorists in they way that you think. (other than you supposedly fight for "democracy", although your kind of democracy (where we get executed if we oppose you) isn't really democracy in my opinion)

Just as info, Muslims aren't the ones to blame, terrorists are (just wanted to clarify that I make that difference)