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Trinten's SBC/F23 build - The work has begun! by Trinten
Started on: 08-17-2009 10:48 PM
Replies: 462 (21088 views)
Last post by: fieroguru on 11-12-2019 01:34 PM
FieroMaster88
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Report this Post07-06-2014 11:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroMaster88Click Here to Email FieroMaster88Send a Private Message to FieroMaster88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Awesome! Looks super clean. I would love to have him redo my engine swap in my 88.

------------------

88 Coupe: 2.0L Turbo 4 Cylinder, W2A, T25 Turbo.
84 Indy #64: Restoration Project, Super Duty 4 swap

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sleevePAPA
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Report this Post07-07-2014 06:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'd like to see some videos of it rippin' some sh!t up

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-07-2014 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroMaster88:

I would love to have him redo my engine swap in my 88.



wouldn't we all...

------------------
1st class A**hole.

we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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fieroguru
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Report this Post07-07-2014 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by FieroMaster88:
Awesome! Looks super clean. I would love to have him redo my engine swap in my 88.


 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
wouldn't we all...


Thanks guys!

I am taking 6 months to a year off from customer swaps to focus on R&D to expand my product offerings...

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-07-2014 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Thanks guys!

I am taking 6 months to a year off from customer swaps to focus on R&D to expand my product offerings...



!! I look forward to the new stuff! any particular products in mind???

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Report this Post07-08-2014 09:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yep, looks great Guru. Looking forward to seeing what else you have to offer here in the near future.

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FieroMaster88
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Report this Post07-08-2014 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroMaster88Click Here to Email FieroMaster88Send a Private Message to FieroMaster88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm interested to see what else you make! I always need something new/cool for my Fiero.

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Trinten
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Report this Post09-05-2014 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So I've been doing some light driving on the Fiero with only a few minor hiccups, that I think I have resolved (thanks to FieroGuru's willingness to put up with my phone calls!)

I also went to swap out the old Sony head unit I had in there, and get a Kenwood in place that would be flush mounted with the Humount mount.

The part showed up today. I had done the wiring harness a few weeks ago, using bullet connectors to connect the Kenwood harness to the GM harness, this way if I ever wanted to swap out the stereo again, I'd have the GM pigtail in place, just need to put bullet connectors onto the new headunits pigtails, and bam!

I still need to play with it, the Fiero silver piece that sits over everything isn't sitting right. I thought it was the two tabs that are between the HVAC control cut out and radio cut out, so I trimmed them, but there is still a gap between the back of the panel and the front of the Humount around the face. The lower right corner of the Fiero panel has no play in it at all (wont' go back any further), but the center will flex to touch the Humount. This could be a simple as I didn't screw the Humount in all the way. It also leaves a small gap along the right hand side, where you can see the white plastic of the Humount.

I'll put up some pics tomorrow.

Also, couldn't connect the power to light up the Humount yet, the wires are too short to splice them into the bullet-connector I have in place already, and I didn't want to cut up the harness more than I needed to. So I'm going to extend the wires for the Humount.

And I need to probably redo the harness wiring anyway. When I powered up the stereo, only one speaker was working this time. I reached behind the dash and jabbed the wires with my fingertips, and two more came on. That leaves the driver-side rear speaker, not sure if the speaker is toast or if my wiring is so bad that no amount of playing with it would make it work.

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Trinten
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Report this Post09-13-2014 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Okay, so I figured out what the issue was with the fascia and the rest of the stuff.

The two lower guide holes for the screws were (are) hitting the corners of the Humount bezel. I was able to put a little flex on it and fit it on there, however the holes for the fascia do not line up now. Good news is that the two tension retaining clips on the fascia, and the tension from the guides pressing on the side of the Humount are holding it snuggly in place.

I also soldered the two adapters together last night, and wired the Humount's LED lights to the main Ground and the 12v Ignition on wire.... but they didn't light up.

I made the assumption that the white wire with the small piece of red banding on it was the negative (since usually it's the negative wires that are a solid color w/ a stripe), but I might have this backwards. The good news is, in anticipation of this possibility, I did not solder the wire extensions I put to the LED leads. I just did the "Western union" twist on them (like I do before I solder), and then taped them.

Since Autofair is next weekend, I don't feel like taking it all apart again just to flip those wires, but I did leave the smoked plexi out, so the "Fiero GT" is a nice contrasting white against the black bezel. So it looks good enough for now.

Next project before autofair is to split the juice that's powering the fuel pump and the water pump to their own fuses. Right now those two things are running off their own relays, but the same fuse. I have everything I should need to do the split, just need to take the time to cut-and-splice. FieroGuru did a great job of soldering/heat shrinking everything on this wiring panel, but I'm a little hesitant to try to get my iron in there, so for this I'm going to use crimping butt connectors.

Then I'm going to drag the vacuum out there and give the interior a good vacuuming and cleaning... then do what I can to clean the outside (which looks terrible, but paint is always last!)

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Trinten
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Report this Post09-26-2014 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here's a pic of my Humount flush stereo install kit. I need to take it back out to trim it up around where the screw holes pass through in the bezel. Because of the round circles/stands on the back of the bezel, it doesn't quite sit right or line up to be properly screwed in, but the tension there holds the bezel in place.

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Trinten
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Report this Post09-15-2017 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The importance of buying exact replacement parts when you have a modified car, and knowing how to drive stick.

Hi everyone! It's been a few years since I've had the car back, so I wanted to update everyone.

Overall, for such a heavy amount of modification, the car has been amazingly trouble free, there's been a few hiccups, mainly due to the parts. Like I had an odd oil leak I had to chase down, and discovered that my intake was not sitting flush with the engine, so a shop fixed that (partial planing out the bottom of the intake and adjusting the gasket).

Minor crap aside, here is my tale of "How I learned I've been driving a manual wrong... and what it did to my car."
Let me start by saying I effectively taught myself by puttering up and down a back street. From reading I knew "riding the clutch" was bad, but you needed to do a little of it to get rolling from a dead stop. My mistake was I also thought that as you shifted, you should start to give it a little gas near the end of the clutch re-engaging (as you lift your foot) to try to get the flywheel and clutch to be spinning at a closer rate. This would, in my mind, provide a smoother ride, and only marginally impact clutch wear.

The issue was, when driving aggressive, I would do the same thing. The inch or so before my foot was completely off the clutch pedal, I'd start pushing down the throttle. I was making my belt jump off and get chewed up with regularity (5.5K-6K shifts from 2nd on up, belt typically jumped between 3rd and 4th gear).

I foolishly chalked it up to "This is what happens when you have modified toys." and just dealt with it. FieroGuru was baffled, he had put on aroun 700 miles, and said he had some aggressive driving, and had no belt issues. Let me stress here that I am standing behind FieroGuru and the awesome work he has done, this is entirely on me. I'm just giving some background.

So I lived with the belt issues, and always kept a spare. Then one day when putting the belt back on (it had just hopped off, no damage), I notice there's a piece of metal missing from the belt tensioner (I have pics, I will post them up later this weekend). To me it didn't seem to impact it's operation, so I ignored it. Dumb move 2. Or maybe 3 at this point? Anyhow.

A local buddy was helping me out with some stuff, and I mentioned the belt issues. He looks at it and says "That's broken. The stop is gone, so the spring is pulling it forward too much." Oh... well, that might help explain the belt issues. I text FieroGuru, and in <10 minutes he tells me exactly what kind of car it's out of, and even gives me the freaking part number! What a memory!

Off to RockAuto! All the pictures look the same, and since I was buying Gates heavy duty belts, I figure I'll get a Gates tensioner.

It shows up, I go back to Mikes, he takes out the plate holding the tensioner... they are not the same. The Gates is an "improved design" (again, I have lots of pictures, I will edit this and put them all in). The improved design moved the bolt holds ever-so-slightly. Mike marks them with a grease pen and carefully opens up the space on the plate. Then we discover the pulley won't swap over. Now it gets complicated.

I offer for us to go up to a parts store and just grab the exact part number Guru gave me. He likes how beefy the new one looks, and wants to make it work. He built his 700HP Grand National (old school mechanic), so I trusted his expertise and amazing collection of tools he has to get this done. So he digs through his buckets and boxes of parts, and finds another pulley (from a Grand National) that is not ribbed, but is "lipped". He says he's done pulley swaps like that before, and shouldn't impact the belt life. The pulley fits! It's also a little bigger than the old pulley.

New pulley goes on. Tensioner goes on the bracket... and there's some clearance issues when the tensioner rotates. A little more grinding (with him commenting on the strength of the steel plate that the bracket was made from), and it's working. Next challenge... larger pulley, means belt length changes.

For giggles, we tried one of the Gates HD belts, it was not going to work. To the parts store!

I brought the old tensioner and one of the belts, just for comparison. While there, I did pick up a Dayco tensioner that is exactly like my old one. We picked up two different longer belts (I'll list all of the belt sizes when I put the pictures up).

After some trial and error, we got it all together. He was also helping me fix my A/C, so we take it for a test drive to Walmart. This is the first time he's been in the Fiero with me driving (he's driven it a few times). After a little babying, I jump on it in a free-and-clear space. It holds up. As we continue the cruise, Mike says "Well, I found your problem."

"What's that?" I ask.
"You. You don't shift correctly."
... "What?"
"You're giving it gas before the clutch is fully engaged on every gear."
"Right?"
"No. You should let the clutch fully engage before you give it gas."
"That's... going to the ride kind of jerky when I shift."
"If you're shifting when you're not supposed to, yeah. But when you hit it right, it'll still be smooth."
"Well damn, now I know why Guru said my last clutch only had about half it's life left, with only 5 or 10K miles on it."
"Yup."
He then explained with how I was shifting, the tensioner was doing a lot more work, and was snapping around more than it needed to, this whipping effect on the belt made it easy for it pop off. Well damn.

So we get refrigerant, and on the way back I practice what he told me. Sometimes it was not pleasant, but after a little bit, the shifts were almost as smooth as when I was "riding" the clutch a touch at the end.

Driving home was interesting, going into second gear a few times was a head bobbing experience, but 3/4/5 were all pretty smooth.

He also told me about how Buick had a "screw-drive" solid tensioner, and that if I wanted to explore that, he'd try to figure out how to put it into my car - simply to make it easier to put the belt on by myself if I ever have to replace it again at the side of the road or something.

As part of my roadside kit, I'm keeping the old style tensioner, with the pulley Guru gave me, and the belt for that setup, along with the 4 sizes of socket/wrenches I need to swap all of that stuff in the car. I need to put together a roadside bag like Guru's.

Again, I'll edit this with pics on Sunday or Monday, and make a post so everyone will know when the pics have been added.

My thanks to FieroGuru for continuing to be awesome and response when I have questions and I am not near my computer to go through my notes -- as well as the quality of his work, which won some great recognition for clean install/clean wiring at car shows, and a lot of impressed nods from mechanics and engineers alike.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post09-15-2017 07:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Vince, glad you figured it out, are enjoying the car, and that it has received several favorable comments about the swap!

You might want to consider a specialized alternator pulley that is called and Overrun Alternator Decoupling pulley (OAD) that will help reduce accessory belt vibrations.
https://aviondemand.com/pro...-vs-overrunning-adp/

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-16-2017).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post11-13-2017 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


My thanks to FieroGuru for continuing to be awesome and response when I have questions and I am not near my computer to go through my notes -- as well as the quality of his work, which won some great recognition for clean install/clean wiring at car shows, and a lot of impressed nods from mechanics and engineers alike.


I was very impressed with Guru's work when I saw your car for the first time!!

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Trinten
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Report this Post04-22-2018 08:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So as the Fiero is down for repairs, and one of the things that needs to be fixed is the headlights/bucket assembly on one side, I've been looking at other options besides putting back in the twin 90mm Hella lamps I had.

I found this - an LED 4x6 headlight assemble I'm considering (though may not get this exact one, I don't care about the RGB 'halo' around it) - https://colorwerkzled.com/c...pre-built-headlights

I also admittedly like the new style of headlights that Acura is using across their entire line. So I'm wondering if the top of the GT bumper can be modified to fit those in there, and then the headlight panels would be patched and smoothed over. This would be problematic as I still intend to do the F355 nose that Amida makes, so I'm factoring in that as well. If anyone has any (technical) thoughts on this, please chime in!

Also, I did realize that I failed to post the pictures I intended to add to my last post. I need to see if I ever moved them off my phone to my computer, and start that process.

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La fiera
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Report this Post04-22-2018 09:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice to see you are bringing the monster back to life! Let me know when you come to Mooresville, I'll break my piggy bank and treat you to Burrito Loco. (This guy can eat!!)

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Trinten
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Report this Post05-26-2019 08:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hello all!

I know it's been a while. For those that know me, I like to do my homework, ask annoying questions, do more research, and save up money to pay people far more skilled than I to get things done!

The guy who is doing this next round of upgrades is fairly local to me. I met him 6 or 7 years ago now. What sold me on his skills is the stuff he'd done with his Grand National - a remarkable mix of fabrication (welding) skills, electrical planning, modification, and making things look like they came from the factory that way. He's a career mechanic and loves challenges, but does the "boring routine stuff" to keep cash flowing in. He has toys (both cars and a ridiculous tool chest and other fabrication tools) that I wish I had the space for... and the knowledge to use effectively.

Anyhow!! Onto some details, right?

Tranmission update!
I decided to get rid of the manual transmission. Mike (said mechanic) wanted it my F23 for his own Fiero project (he caught the bug from me and fellow Fiero enthusiast Chug). So he has that. Knowing I wanted to go Automatic, I reached out to FieroGuru with a pretty simple question -- what's the strongest automatic out there?

FieroGuru's reply: "Depends on what you wanted out of it. The strongest would be the 4T80, the most interesting would be the 6T75 (using the Ford version that came with the V8)."

Well then... 4T80 it is!

Next I reached out to DarthFiero, who connected me to Dave over at Triple Edge Performance. Dave was really good with a pre-sales call, we talked through everything. He had started investigating building up the 4T80, and had a number of cores, but the business wasn't there for it yet. He did say he slapped a stock 4T80 into one of his cars and had beating on it for over a year with no issues. The conversation ended pretty simply "Throw every trick you have at it for me."

Mike also insisted I get a torque converter with a billet cover, his concern was ballooning and didn't want the fast spinning chunk of metal behind my back to rip through and hurt me if things went south. I'll get to why that's a concern of his later. Transmission first!

Dave said the company he worked with for torque converters could probably do it. So Triple Edge was paid for the transmission and torque converter. The transmission took much longer to be ready than originally anticipated - Dave was transparent on the cause of the delays, which I appreciated. The downside is his TC Company said they couldn't do a billet cover for a 4T80, so they wanted to do one for a 4T65... which means (as Dave tells me), I now need to get a pump input shaft that is 4T65 on one side, and 4T80 on the other. He's looking into details - there is a machine shop that will build it for me once I have those details. And since it'll be a custom part, I'll get two.

I have since found a full blown race shop that will basically fabricate any torque converter.... but their prices start at 3k, and that's for the stuff they regularly do. So putting that on the back burner for now.

Meziere is making the custom flexplate I need. They have been awesome to work with! Again, I ordered two. The price break after the first one was too good to pass up, and again, custom stuff. Plus they gave me the technical sheet for it, so if I ever need one made by them or anyone ever in the future, I just need to give them that sheet!

"Trinten! Shut up and show us a picture!" .... okay, fine.



"But Trinten! The 4T80 was never paired with a SBC! It won't work!!!" .... really? Are you sure...? Cause, you know, this:

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

And this:



And this:



No, that is not me in the picture, that is Mike. And no, he is not missing part of his right ring-finger, it's just a creepy camera angle. You can't stop looking now, can you?

In full disclosure, this did require taking a 2" corner out of the SBC flange for the transmission lobe to clear so the bolt holes will line up. Mike will also be tapping holes on the trans bell housing to take full advantage of all of the bolt holes in the adapter/block. He was also happy that the bracket holes on the lobe line up well with some mounting points on the block, so he's going to build a brace there to help with forces.

Right now the assembly is sitting on a makeshift "stand" The previous pics were from a few weeks ago. This next one was from yesterday, which will lead into my next post!



And yes, doing this means modifying the cradle. Wait... did I say modifying the cradle? Hmm, no, Mike says that all the time it would take to modify the cradle, he might as well just build one for me. Out of chromemoly. So that's happening. Custom engine cradle! ... which works out well with some of the upcoming surprises...

To the next post!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-26-2019).]

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Trinten
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Report this Post05-26-2019 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

On to Suspension

This time I'm opening up with a picture! Mike has been working on the front-end, getting my awesome new wheels on. Check this out!



Yup, that is a C5 Corvette wheel! What's that? Spacers?? Why would I need Spacers?! Oh, because of the bolt pattern? Not a problem. We used Corvette hubs. And Controls arms. And steering rack.... and transverse spring. What's that Mike? Oh! You just took the entire C5 front end suspension and bolted it up to my Fiero? Awesome!

Background, then more pictures!

Mike drove my Fiero about 4 years ago. He was really impressed with it... mostly. He didn't like the suspension. After accident, when discussing with him my options, he said "If we rebuild the car, we're not using that suspension. We need better stuff." That 'better stuff' is C5 Vette, front and back.

Mike was impressed at how "easy" it was to bolt up the Vette front suspension and make the modifications for mounting points and the steering wheel column. Notice easy is in quotes... because easy is seriously relative at this point.

Picture time!













I have more pictures, but you get the idea right now.

In before the obvious comments!

Yes, the car sits higher right now. I actually like it. It will drop about an inch once all the other stuff is done, and Mike said there is a Vette bump steer kit that will drop it another inch.

Yes, the wheels turn lock to lock and clear everything.

Yes, I will be using the power steering. This will be done by mounting a 2nd Generation Toyota MR2 Spyder EHPS Pump up front. I found and bought three of them, because they are getting rare.

Yes, the wheels stick out. I will be getting flared wheel wells sometime in the future. Bodywork and paint are always last on my list.

Mike cut off the Fiero stock mounting points, and made new mounting brackets that connect to the Fiero Frame and go to the stock Vette mounting points. Apparently these two things are ridiculously lined up.

If anyone else has put a C5 Vette front suspension in their Fiero, I haven't found it/seen it... so I'm tentatively going to say "First!"

I have no pics of the rear yet... because it can't be done until Mike is done with the custom cradle. He said the back is going to sit up high, too. I told him fine, and I actually wanted to see if he could make the back sit up higher than the front... I like the "Raked" look. If you're not a fan of that look, that's fine, it's not being built for you, is it?

There are more surprises in store, but I'll wait till more is done to post pictures and info.

Also, all of the interior of this Fiero came out, it was the Beachwood tan/brown stuff. Including, I think, Mr. Mike's leather seats! I'm going to be cleaning (almost) all of it up and posting it in the Mall sometime tomorrow, if anyone needs anything. Edit: I thought all the tan stuff was the beachwood stuff, shows how little I pay attention to interior colors.

Here is the link to my TAN/BROWN interior parts for sale: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/077786.html

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-28-2019).]

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G-Man
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Report this Post05-29-2019 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for G-ManSend a Private Message to G-ManEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Did the starter and oil filter present any problems or are they pretty much like they are in any other SBC/auto swap? How are you controlling the 80?

I'm very interested to see how this combo fits the engine bay and how the added weight affects the ride and handling. It's about 90 lbs or so heavier than the 4t65 which is itself probably a lot heavier then the MT you are taking out.

Oh, and e.t.a: The front of your car is probably sitting higher because it used to support the weight of an engine in the Vette. You might need to add some ballast. I can give you my ex-wife's number if you want?

Gary

[This message has been edited by G-Man (edited 05-29-2019).]

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Trinten
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Report this Post05-29-2019 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

LOL,

Thanks Gary, good questions and observations. Yes, Mike said that once the radiator and everything else was back in the front, it would bring it down a touch.

There are aftermarket corvette suspension parts, up to some ridiculous (leaf) spring rates, front and back. So I'm ready to drop coin to get whatever it takes to keep the rear end geometry right.

We're going to keep using the 411 PCM that was controlling my engine before, we're going to reflash it with the Transmission tables for the 4L80, which has the same solenoid layout as the 4T80. So the computer will think it's a 4L80.

I can't answer all the details about how it'll all fit. Mike had multiple ideas of how things were going to fit in there, and what he might or might not modify as he built up the cradle and started doing test fitting and more measurements. I'll hold off on the thoughts he was pitching to me for a few reasons.
1. They're just ideas so far, and I don't know which one will wind up being executed.
2. I won't be able to answer most of the technical questions!

Mike said he'd consider registering here and making some posts. No promises. Once it's done or as it progresses, I'll do my best to answer questions.

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Report this Post06-01-2019 11:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Very cool, Trinten (and team).

Before I got neck deep in my rebody, I was looking at the C4 cross member for the front. The dimensions I looked at showed that the locations of the control arms were much further inward than the Fiero and they would interfere with a lot of things. Ultimately I put an 88 suspension in. Awesome that you got the C5 in. I'm still considering the C4 rear, but it still needs a lot of research (and time) before pulling the trigger.

There isn't a clear picture on how the shock is done. Would you be able to go with coil-overs and eliminate the transverse spring? I know you mentioned you kind of like it, but is it truely the lack of weight not bringing it back down, or is the suspension that much taller?

Either way, well done, team.

Bob

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Report this Post06-01-2019 11:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The front will definitely come down after everything is back in there, it doesn't take much weight to drive it down. Leaning on it pushes it down a little.

I think right now the transverse spring will stay in. The spring rate might change depending on how it goes. He did make some marks and adjustments again. The front wheels sit a little more center to the wheel wells. He's got more he wants to do before he decides it's ready to have the new new mounts welded on.

I honestly haven't looked/asked about how the shocks will mount up yet. Given how much of the front is staged now, he'll probably be doing that soon. He also has one of the big pieces to the new rear cradle tack-welded together. Today he dropped the V6 engine and cradle.

That reminds me. I need to either update my post in the mall, or start another one. See if anyone needs anything off the old v6 engine.


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Report this Post06-09-2019 01:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was out there again today. I couldn't do much but ask questions and stare.

The chrome moly cradle is coming along. The rough shape of it is straight-forward and just tack-welded together for test fitting and measurements for the moment. I also have a few shots of mock-ups for the control arms. The upper control arms might need to be flipped (And swapped L-R).

While it looks like the bottom bar is lower, it's only 1.625" lower than the stock cradle. My understanding is that Mike is going to finish mocking up the brackets for the arms then set my engine/trans on the cradle. It will let him make marks and measurements to do the engine/transmission mounts.

Once he's comfortable that he's got it all right, everything comes back apart so final bracing, welding and clean-up can happen, and everything goes off for powdercoating. In it's current form, it's also ridiculously light. If it weighs 40 pounds I'd be shocked. It can be easily held up with one hand.

I know, I know.... "pics!" I took a bunch of others, like a close up of the bracket he made for the adjustable side of the Corvette lower a-arm, but the pic wasn't well lined up (my fault).















[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-09-2019).]

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Report this Post06-12-2019 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice Job Vincent!!
So, just let me know when you are coming this way
so we can have some Burrito Loco!

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Report this Post06-16-2019 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just a small update!

one of the "fun" things with any transmission swap is... axles!
So I figured the easiest way to start comparing things was to buy an axle from a Caddy that came with the 4T80, and one from a C5 Vette. The 4T80 inboard side of the axle is female. Interestingly, when I was looking at axles on O'Reily's, I saw they had a C5 axle with a female inboard side!!

So I bought that one. It's a Precision GM8214 axle.

It fits! It plugged into the transmission without any issues. Mike said it had no play, was fully seated, and the clip snapped into place!

Now it doesn't solve the length issue - but that's what the Drive Shaft Shop in Charlotte will be for. It will just make it much simpler to call them and give them that part number for the information and the proper length, instead of saying "I need the inboard from this car, the shaft to be this long, and the tripod for a C5 vette."

Overall, pretty excited!

I won't hope that the factory lengths are going to be correct... I'm not that lucky.

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Report this Post06-24-2019 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



Bob

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Report this Post06-24-2019 10:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I was out there again this past Sunday. Mostly staring. And helping to line stuff up/brace things/be an extra set of hands. I need to get the pics off the phone and see which are worth burning up folks bandwidth.

Mike drilled out the other... I don't know what you call them.. ears? The tabs that we can use to making additional bolting points fo marry the transmission to the engine. He spent a lot of time doing tack welding and working out immediate logistics and future impacts, working on the engine and transmission mounts. When it's done he wants to accomplish a few things:

1. Make it serviceable without fighting the cradle.
2. Creating brackets that will use some of the mounting points on snout of the transmission to the the nearby points on the engine, reducing flex/strain on the snout under load.
3. Use every available mounting point to the goal of "This should be rock solid even with one less mount than I'm planning". Basically doing what I asked - make it as bullet proof as possible.

The monster-sized 4T85 did change some of the plans for the upper control arm. Nothing that will keep me from buying "off the shelf parts" in the future if I ever need them, and it will be serviceable once done, just requires some more engineering and welding magic up front.

Once he has a few more things done, he's going to figure out the length of the axles I'll need. And if necessary (I suspect it will be), I'll be giving DSS follow up call to crank out the custom length corvette axles.

Frustratingly -- we did find a flaw with the Meizere flexplate bolt pattern for the crank. I have to hold my hand up and take ownership on it, because the company did send me a technical drawing ahead of time, and I missed the f'ing obvious way to validate the drawing was right (short of making Mike split the trans and engine). Which would have been to pull up a technical drawing of a standard 1pc rear main seal SBC crank. Mike said he can make the (thankfully minor) modifications to make it work without weakening the plate. Besides this bolt pattern issue, he was impressed with the quality of the piece.

AND! Triple Edge Performance shipped my torque converter, pumpshaft, and sleeve on Friday. That should show up at Mike's on Tuesday/Wednesday. I'll ask him to send me pics after he makes sure it's all right, so I can post those up.

I won't be out there for a few weeks. He's busy this upcoming weekend, I'll be busy the weekend after that. So besides possibly posting up some pics, the next notable update will be mid-July!


Oh. I did replace the other front break caliper while I was there. So that's done. So now the front Corvette stuff has the Z51 'Vette sway bar, new brake calipers, pads, rotors. I did notice the chrome was starting to peel bubble on one of the wheels, starting in the lugnut pockets. Refinishing those will be added (near the bottom) of the list.

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Report this Post06-25-2019 08:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:





That's a lot of trouble to go through to end up with a soft-mounted cradle. Why not hard mount it like an '88's? Probably easier to fab...

Also, triangulate the heck out of that thing, as it'll be taking a lot of suspension loads. Probably also a good idea to box & brace the body side of the forward cradle mounts.

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Report this Post06-25-2019 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Just a small update!

one of the "fun" things with any transmission swap is... axles!
So I figured the easiest way to start comparing things was to buy an axle from a Caddy that came with the 4T80, and one from a C5 Vette. The 4T80 inboard side of the axle is female. Interestingly, when I was looking at axles on O'Reily's, I saw they had a C5 axle with a female inboard side!!

So I bought that one. It's a Precision GM8214 axle.

It fits! It plugged into the transmission without any issues. Mike said it had no play, was fully seated, and the clip snapped into place!

Now it doesn't solve the length issue - but that's what the Drive Shaft Shop in Charlotte will be for. It will just make it much simpler to call them and give them that part number for the information and the proper length, instead of saying "I need the inboard from this car, the shaft to be this long, and the tripod for a C5 vette."

Overall, pretty excited!

I won't hope that the factory lengths are going to be correct... I'm not that lucky.


Check out the DSS website... they have a bunch of cool things for Corvettes

Like these: https://www.driveshaftshop....ine-spline-both-ends



That's why the Corvette inner CV is female. The diff requires different lengths, but having these stubs means they can use the same axles left and right.

They also have drive flanges for the Corvette wheel bearings, so they could make your entire axle setup from scratch.

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Report this Post06-25-2019 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

By hard mounted, if you mean the engine/trans mounts will be hard mounted - yes that is the plan. They will not have any bushings at the engine/transmission mounts.

And yes, that frame you're seeing is far from what the output will be. Mike was showing me the places where he's going to do exactly what you said, build in triangulation points.

Thanks for the info on the axles! DSS is the shop that will be making them when I know the measurements. I think I called that out in my last post. Just not in the one you quoted.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-25-2019).]

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Report this Post06-25-2019 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

By hard mounted, if you mean the engine/trans mounts will be hard mounted - yes that is the plan. They will not have any bushings at the engine/transmission mounts.

And yes, that frame you're seeing is far from what the output will be. Mike was showing me the places where he's going to do exactly what you said, build in triangulation points.

Thanks for the info on the axles! DSS is the shop that will be making them when I know the measurements. I think I called that out in my last post. Just not in the one you quoted.



he means why use bushings at the cradle mounting points, they add a level of unpredictability to the suspension because the mounting points of the suspension now move relative to the body of the car.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post06-25-2019 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for clarifying.

I don't have an answer for that. Next time I'm there I'll ask!

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Report this Post07-13-2019 03:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Click Here to Email jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Following , interested in how you done your front.. I am doing c6 on rear except going longitude ls setup... Was planning on figuring out front once rear is complete.

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85GT Northstar/ 4t80e
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Report this Post07-13-2019 03:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Click Here to Email jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Following , interested in how you done your front.. I am doing c6 on rear except going longitude ls setup... Was planning on figuring out front once rear is complete.

------------------
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Report this Post07-14-2019 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Updates as promised!

So to complete the answer to an earlier question about why Mike is using bushings in the new cradle, instead of solid mounting: given the engine/trans will be solid mounted to the new cradle, having those bushings in place will help reduce some of the vibration going to the body, and that tiny bit of flex could help in other rare situations.

The last few weeks he hadn't had much time to work on my setup due to unavoidable commitments. But he did build up some of the mounts and bracing on the cradle. It was pretty rough (all still in the tack-weld-fit-test-check stage), so I'm just giving you a teaser of one side!



Onto other issues, we did find a tiny bit of water in the cabin. Despite being out in many other rain storms, no water was found, but we had some seriously heavy rains in the last few weeks. Mike started to check it out, and found a little rust under the gasket. So I'll be hitting the Mall to order some of those stainless sunroof rails. In the meantime Mike put some sealant on under there.



On the rear of the cabin on both sides, the previous-previous-owner had cut (or tried to cut) out a panel, given all of the shoddy speaker wiring going on, it was probably to try to put a subwoofer on the passenger side. When they realized that the same pocket did not exist on the driver side, they put down some heavy duty foil type material and lots of caulk over where they started to cut. I stripped that off, Mike is going to weld in a new piece of metal once the gas tank is dropped.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Now onto the exciting stuff! The frame rails will need to be modified to fit the new setup in there... instead of doing a little trimming like existed to make the original setup work, Mike is going to do something a bit more intense. He's going to take a large chunk of the framerail out on both sides, and replace it with a rock-solid bolt on chromemoly piece.

Why bolt on? Because this way getting to the valve body of the transmission, and the belt routin on the other side (plus most of the pulleys), can all be done without dropping the cradle. Just take off the wheels, wheel well cover, the cross beam, and access!

Oh yeah... and the strut towers? Getting rid of those, too, and going to weld in some smaller/better pieces.


Mike removed the spot welds and started disassembly the strut towers


More modifying


See the holes near the yellow markers on the right of this picture? Those were made by this awesome little air-compressor run tool he had, slipped it over the metal, hit the button, a quiet hiss of air and out popped a perfect little plate of metal! This way he can put spot welds back in.


Annnnd it's gone! To be replaced soon with the new and improved bolt-in-rails!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 07-14-2019).]

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Report this Post07-14-2019 09:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Interesting stuff. Now I won't be the only one to build a stock wheelbase upper and lower wishbone coil over suspension. (SLA)

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Report this Post07-14-2019 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Cool! Do you have a link to your build thread? I'd love to check it out!

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Report this Post07-14-2019 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000029.html

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Report this Post07-17-2019 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


So to complete the answer to an earlier question about why Mike is using bushings in the new cradle, instead of solid mounting: given the engine/trans will be solid mounted to the new cradle, having those bushings in place will help reduce some of the vibration going to the body, and that tiny bit of flex could help in other rare situations.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. That logic is backwards. The suspension needs to be hard mounted while the powertrain should be soft mounted.

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Report this Post07-22-2019 11:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So some updates!

Weather sidetracked some things. This Saturday Mike tackled starting to dismantle the passenger side strut tower, and he welded the cuts the PPO (previous-previous-owner) did for their after market stereo stuff... which they apparently cut with tin snips!

The driver side was easier to clean up, prep and welded on a new piece of metal. We also got a tube of seam sealer (which I learned is different from RTV. Don't laugh. No one was born knowing that). Seam sealer has not been applied to the welds yet, the only tube of it in town we could find is not designed to go into a caulk gun, so once we open it, we have to use it.

The passenger side was a disaster. The jokers that did this used the aforementioned tin snips, then used pliers to bend back the jagged edges, THEN filled in the gaps with a creative combination of things. Including a bondo spreader, paper, a towel, window caulk, and this rubbery yellow stuff that was incredibly pliable, very tough to pierce, stretchy... but gave NO warning when it hit it's tensile limit, and it would instantly tear. It was very slow to dig that crap out. Then Mike unbent the jagged metal, dug out MORE of that garbage, cleaned it up and welded it!

The 'shapes' on the welded pieces are the glue that was on those metal pieces. They started their life as the top layer of a Saturn hood (before GM bought them).

Oddly, I didn't seem to take a picture of it after the final welding and painting. The picture of the passenger side is after all of the spot welding was done, but I think before he did the final grinding and painting.

I also took out the 5 speed shifter. I almost did it without anymore of the skeleton breaking. Almost. Only one small crack.

Because of the slight roof leak, and the scent of mildew that was on the carpet, I suspected some of the spots on the floorpan was mildew. When we went to lunch and made some stops for steel for the frame I picked up a bottle of mold/mildew cleaner, and cleaned the floorpan, console, etc.

This weekend Mike has plans, but said they might change, then he's going out of state for a trade show the second weekend of August, and making a trip back to his home state. Returning early September. That leaves, at best, this Sunday if his plans change and he's free (I have plans on Saturday), and
the weekend of August 3rd. After that, there won't be any progress until sometime in September.


Now then, pictures!!!


Driver side cabin hole prepped for welding... I guess when they saw the GASTANK FILLER TUBE they realized it was a bad idea.


All welded. Mike even used a airtool and hand tools to dimple in the steel to follow the original dimples!


Here's the passenger side... it looks deceptively okay! Just wait...


Yup... there's the towel. You can also see the caulk.


Mike is unbending all the metal, you can see all the jagged bits.


All cleaned up, some spot welding. Ready to be sealed up!


The near-finished product... I still can't believe I didn't take a finished picture.




Clean floorpan!


Last picture for today, the partially disassembled passenger side strut tower!

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Report this Post08-03-2019 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Today was a very accomplished day.

We had to stop at 3pm because Mike had other commitments, so I got out there a little earlier than I normally do. It was a great day to work on the car. Most of the day was overcast, so it was a little cooler. But the humidity spiked up later in the day and that sucked a little.

Anyhow. I started applying the Cool-It mat I bought. It's sound deadener and heat shielding. I had it in my last Fiero, and it made a difference with the heat. It's tough to say how much it helped with noise, since my exhaust was also upgraded when it was installed.

I got two rolls of it, which seemed to work out near-perfect. One full roll was used on the driver side. After this is in, I also have Thermo-tecs sound deadening stuff that's a little thicker, that'll be going in as well.



I even had a perfect little piece left over that went on the B-pillar next to the speaker. Speaking of Speakers... the stock speaker on the driver side? The back of the magnet was RUSTED. So badly that there was a crust of rust in a perfect little circle on the jute behind the speaker. So that jute will be replaced. Here's a shot of the speaker.



It took me an embarrassing amount of time... a lot of measuring, cutting -- with just a single edged razor blade -- and then fighting with the stuff to lay right initially before I used the roller to press it down.

While I did that, Mike finished working on the mounting plates for the removable frame rails. He tacked in some angle iron for right now as a place-holder. I took a pick after he removed the original passenger frame rail... you can see the angle iron place holder on the driver side. You'll be able to see the installed passenger side one in a minute.



Mike also pointed out this vapor/expansion tank that was tucked up on the passenger side. I thought these only came in '88s? Can anyone confirm? It was in bad shape, the fuel lines running to it were so rusty that they broke when he was working to remove it.




I started installing the cool-it mat on the passenger side, which was going quicker now that I learned from my previous experience. Then Mike stopped me.

Why?

Because he needed me out of the car while he did this little bit of work called... test fitting the cradle/drivetrain in the car!

It was slow going, we had to watch clearances EVERYWHERE because the engine compartment still has a lot of useless crap. on the firewall, and of course all of the cool stuff FieroGuru had done (like wiring relocations) don't exist here (yet).




And another shot, I tried to show how much more room there is now between the rail and the engine... with the original strut towers, an engine belt wouldn't even fit between the tower and face of the pulley easily. Now there's miles of room. The circumference of the chrome moly isn't much bigger than the angle iron if you drew a circle connecting it's three outmost positions.




And here's one from the driver side - the bottom of the cradle lines up perfectly with the ground effects of the car. It's working out beautifully so far! And again, tons of room between the transmission and where the new rail will be.




And here's another from the drivers side.



And lastly, one from the top, and then some details on fitment!



We did have to clearance the bracket for the decklid hinge on the passenger side. I expected this. Originally my first revision V8 Fiero was missing half that bracket. Mike didn't take that much off, just enough to get the body down far enough to bolt the cradle into place.

I did keep the awesome brackets that FieroGuru made when he did all the EFI work, so I told Mike I'd like those to go back in, which means getting rid of the stock spring and the rest of the bracket on both sides. We will also need to clearance the "support rail" of the decklid on the passenger side (about 1/8 of an inch), for the same reason FieroGuru had to -- so the decklid can close. Otherwise it hits the intake.

We're going to use the original Corvette Axles that came with all the parts, cut them, make some sleeves, and use them solely for test fitting to get perfect measurements, then the Drive Shaft Shop can make me a set.

Also!! I still have the OEM Getrag axles that were in this car... are they worth trying to sell? Or should I just throw them on a shelf until someone needs one? I know there are aftermarket options, but as FieroGuru has posted about in the past... the aftermarket ones aren't exact... just "close enough" to work in most stock applications. So anyway, let me know.

Mike is going to be unavailable for the next three weeks (approx), doing cool work stuff. So I don't expect to be back out there until sometime in early September.

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