Neet Video Mickey_Moose. I must have watched it 5-6 times listening to the roar of the exhaust.Thanks for posting the link
Joe


I got page 5

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Also found a crappy video of my first drive (I lost the first startup video (and others) due to a hard drive crash way back) no exhaust after the manifolds and wheel alignment way off: http://members.shaw.ca/efog.../4.9/first_drive.avi

Great video!

I never got a first drive vid. My first drive was around the parking lot at the shop. No VSS connected, EGR silonoid missing power wire, high idle from ISC out of adjustment, no ground on F7 & C10, no speedo, and tack reading high. It was a mess. It still felt faster then any other fiero I had driven at that time. A real seat of the pants drive. I wasn't sure if it was going to hold together or not. It was great!

First drive I ever did with mine there was still some unfinished pieces to the conversion. I was almost shaking with excitment/nervousness. Mainly watched the temp, oil pressure etc. Each time out was a little longer over the course of the next few weeks as I finished up other little parts of the conversion.

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: I was almost shaking with excitment/nervousness.

Lol! Best feeling ever! Ok, maybe not. Still, it makes all the trouble worth while.

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: Dude, your wife lets you bring car parts/stuff into the house?

So as long as it is clean and I don't leave them all over the kitchen...

I cleaned and painted the oil filter adapter this afternoon. I used silver 'Hammered' looking paint on it. I will put two coats of clear engine enamel over the 'hammered' silver in the am after the dew burns off. It was 47* this morning at 700am, lots of dew. Had a breakdown on the tracator this morning and didn't get to do all I wanted to the 4.9.

quote Originally posted by josef644: I had that happen on a 302 Ford once. I use a short piece of heater hose, and fit a metal plug in the end. Put a clamp on it, then just slide it on the nipple, and tighten a second clamp. On these 4.9 swaps it will never be seen anyway. Those rubber caps are worthless. Joe Crawford

My technique is to fill the unused water outlet with black silicone sealant, then cap it off after it sets up.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Oil filter adapter painted with hammered silver, and two coats of clear. I'll put it back on the car this afternoon.


Tuurned out real nice
and back on the engine:

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-13-2009).]

Added the POS & NEG battery cables, starter jumper wire, shorty exhaust pipe, exhaust crossover pipe, tied up some wires to close to the exhaust. I capped off the brake booster vacume tube. I went and got 2.5 gals fresh fuel and added it in the tank. I will add another 2 gals after I see where the fuel gauge reads. I will install a new rotor underneath the dist cap, add the 8 spark plug wires and then give her a spin tomorrow. I could have finished up today, but.........

I was removed from my garage by brute force. A gray headed, rolling pin swinging grandmother threatened me with iminent bodily injury and making me sleep in the garage for the rest of the year if I didn't stop , clean up and go shopping with her.

She didn't think it was funny when I told her "OK, thats wonderful news, are you sure you wouldn't mind?" Dad-gum it my head hurts like sin!!!!!

Joe

Wish me luck guys
Snuck back outside and installed the new rotor. She never knew!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-14-2009).]

It's Alive!!!

After installing the spark plug wires and adding a battery, I unplugged the fuel pump fuse. Cranked it over until I had oil pressure. Pressure came up after just a few rev's. I poured a tablespoon of gas down each throttle bore. I reach in and turned the key. She hit and ran about 6 seconds. I hit the key again and it ran about 3-4 seconds without adding fuel again. I added some more gas and watched the oil pressure gage this time. It was about half way between 60 and 80 lbs of oil pressure while running. I plugged in the fuel pump fuse and added a test light to the ALDL Turned the key and the light come on for a bit . It comes back on when the starter is cranked over. I ran it about 50- 60 seconds today a litle bit at a time as I don't have a cooling system connected up yet. It would run as long as I kept adding fuel to the T body. I depressed the schrader valve and got a nice shot of gas leaving the fuel rail.

I am 100% sure I have the fuel supply line connected to the port on the right, and not the one that goes to the regulator. It is the return line. Right?

The engine idled fine untill all the fuel is exhausted from the throttle bores.
I will check for injector +12 at C203 'J & K'. If these are good, I'll move outside to the engine bay and see if I have +12 at the injector harness connector.

Speedo zeros when the key is turned or the engine was running.

Absolutly no viberation at all with the engine running.

No fuel or oil leaks anywhere

If I can get it to idle I will hook up my lapttop and test out the Dodgerunner's ALDL cable to see if it will run the TunnerPro software. I have added a jumper to ALDL pin 'E' from lead 'M' to see if this will work.

I have positioned my muffler's inlet up arount the exhaust stubbbie. The exhaust sounds real good.

I will make a video clip when I correct the fuel problem. A 6 second clip isn't worth the time to mess with it.

Did I say it sounds GREAT when it is running

+12 at he C203 J and K, and all the way out to the injector connector. They were lettered J and K there also. Go figure
Checking things over and discovered the green ECM connector was not seated all the way. VAts bypass is F10 in there. Pushed it and and started it up. Ran it about 15 seconds. Has a hard miss. It ran smooth and great on poured in gas. That by it self would eliminate the ingition. Has to be a either bad or miss wired injectors. I will check for miss wired injectors tomorrow. I will unplug the harness and route it inside the car by the ECM plugs. Ohm em all out

Is there a way to check the injectors with out taking them apart?

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-15-2009).]

Can you borrow a set of NOID lights?

Great work!!

On your injector wires. Double check the black/red wires. I may be wrong on the exact color but there should be two of them the same color. Just make sure they are in the correct spots. If you look at the 92-93 wiring diagrams you will see what I'm talking about.

EDIT: http://members.shaw.ca/efog...service%20manual.pdf

Just double checked. According to the wiring diagram both wires are Blk/Lt blu. I'm pretty sure mine were blk/red. Check PCM pins C15 = injector #4, D14 = injector #7. Double check with a continuety tester to be sure they are in the right place. Wont idle well with them reversed. You can switch pins at the PCM if needed to easily correct the problem.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Can you borrow a set of NOID lights?

Gonna look for a set today

as posted in other thread, is your VATS (passkey) disabled? If not that is the reason why...

No luck on finding NOIDS Lites here

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: fuel problem could be VATS (passkey) - did you have it programmed out?

I have a Baker Electronix VATS by pass. And the green Led is on. I also verified the connection to ECM F10. It has to be working or I wouldn't be able to get it to run from the injectors for around 12-15 seconds before I killed the ingnition.

Would it help or hinder for me to remove the 8 injectors and put them in a quart of thinner to help get them unstopped?

Gonna go remove the injector part of the harness now to verify the connections with the pin positions.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-16-2009).]

If you have 2 wires & a 9v battery here's a simple injector test.

1. Clip a couple of alligator clip ended wires to a removed injector.

2. Place a few drops of gas in the injector inlet.

3. Pressurize the injector by placing the inlet end in your mouth and blowing while touching the leads to a 9v battery.

4. The voltage should activate the injector which will let you see the gas squirting out of the nozzle end.

If the battery doesn't activate the solenoid in the injector, it's bad.

If the solenoid moves the plunger but no gas squirts out, the injector is clogged.

If the gas only drips out instead of sprays the injector is still clogged, just not as bad as above.

Ralph Nader types: ignore this post.

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 11-16-2009).]

I guess I could just use a piece of fuel hose on the top of the injector, and add a dab of air pressure. Say 10lbs? I also have a 12 V lawn mower battery. And I would think one could use just about any type of petroluem based liquid, gas , diesel or what ever is in the shop.

I hate the taste of gas.

Great ideas here.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-16-2009).]

You really need to check them at operating pressure with fuel.... since there are several failure modes for injectors: Stuck closed, Stuck open, and partially clogged producing a poor spray pattern and less fuel delivery.

I will have to go back and check some PM's, but a set of 8 rebuilt injectors was around $150.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-17-2009).]

Josef,

When my Formula still had the 2.8 in it, it sort of had a similar issue. Hadn't run in over a year, It would fire off the cold start injector or if you sprayed a little fuel down the intake etc. I didn't pull the injectors off, I kept my gas pedal 100% depressed to the floor while trying to start it. It isn't often full fuel pressure is ever delivered to injectors. Believe it or not, it worked. Engine started to stumble, them finally light on it's own and eventually run. The more I flogged the throttle (while driving at this point), the better it continued to run.

Warning though, it puts a little stress on the starter in the begining and in the end, I should have just pulled the injectors and had them all hydrostatically cleaned and tested. But in the end, the engine did run good with the "smash foot to floor" method.

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: I didn't pull the injectors off, I kept my gas pedal 100% depressed to the floor while trying to start it.

This wont work with a 4.9. With the car off and gas pedal fully pressed (High TPS reading) the PCM puts the car into "clear flood mode" and cuts all fuel delivery.

Oh well, glad I didn't make him waste time with it then.

From the 'other' thread:

quote Originally posted by josef644: After installing the spark plug wires and adding a battery, I unplugged the fuel pump fuse. Cranked it over until I had oil pressure. Pressure came up after just a few rev's. I poured a tablespoon of gas down each throttle bore. I reach in and turned the key. She hit and ran about 6 seconds. I hit the key again and it ran about 3-4 seconds without adding fuel again. I added some more gas and watched the oil pressure gage this time. It was about half way between 60 and 80 lbs of oil pressure while running. I plugged in the fuel pump fuse and added a test light to the ALDL Turned the key and the light come on for a bit . It comes back on when the starter is cranked over. I ran it about 50- 60 seconds today a litle bit at a time as I don't have a cooling system connected up yet. It would run as long as I kept adding fuel to the T body. I depressed the schrader valve and got a nice shot of gas leaving the fuel rail. I am 100% sure I have the fuel supply line connected to the port on the right, and not the one that goes to the regulator. It is the return line. Right? The engine idled fine untill all the fuel is exhausted from the throttle bores. I will check for injector +12 at C203 'J & K'. If these are good, I'll move outside to the engine bay and see if I have +12 at the injector harness connector.

quote Originally posted by josef644: I have a Baker Electronix VATS by pass. And the green Led is on. I also verified the connection to ECM F10. It has to be working or I wouldn't be able to get it to run from the injectors for around 12-15 seconds Would it help or hinder for me to remove the 8 injectors and put them in a quart of thinner to help get them unstopped? I like the little test on the injectors you did

In your first post, you mention that it runs only when you add fuel to the throttle body (injectors not firing). Part of the function of the VATS is to disable the fuel system after 2-3 secs after startup - the car will run if force fed, but the injector will not fire (VATS also disables the starter, but this does not apply to the Fiero unless you wired it up as it is in the Caddy with the VATS relay and such). If your car will start (without adding fuel to the throttle body) and stall shortly after, it is most likely a VATS issue. Are you running the correct frequency on the bypass module? I don't recall off hand right now if the 4.9 is running the 50Hz or the 60Hz signal (this may also depend on the year of the program that is in the ECM) - try switching the frequency if your module lets you and try that. I just checked and it seems Rockcrawl has removed that info from his website.

Injectors: Don't use thinner on them, you may damage the insulation on the coils - use injector or carb/throttle body cleaner. Check out Dodgerunner's post here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096900.html

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 11-17-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: In your first post, you mention that it runs only when you add fuel to the throttle body (injectors not firing). Part of the function of the VATS is to disable the fuel system after 2-3 secs after startup - the car will run if force fed, but the injector will not fire (VATS also disables the starter, but this does not apply to the Fiero unless you wired it up as it is in the Caddy with the VATS relay and such). If your car will start (without adding fuel to the throttle body) and stall shortly after, it is most likely a VATS issue. Are you running the correct frequency on the bypass module? I don't recall off hand right now if the 4.9 is running the 50Hz or the 60Hz signal (this may also depend on the year of the program that is in the ECM) - try switching the frequency if your module lets you and try that. I just checked and it seems Rockcrawl has removed that info from his website. Injectors: Don't use thinner on them, you may damage the insulation on the coils - use injector or carb/throttle body cleaner. Check out Dodgerunner's post here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096900.html

Here is my Baker order:
VATS PASSkeyII Bypass
Item# VATS , LED Color: Green , VATS Signal: 30 Hz $25.00 USD 1 $25.00 USD"

And a part of their list of 30 Hz autos
Known PCMs or vehicles that used the 30 Hz VATS:
1993 Camaro (The 88,90 & 92 may or may not be 30Hz)
1990-93 Cadillac Deville (The 89 may or may not be 30Hz)
1993 Oldsmobile 88

So guess you are thinking I need to send the prom to Stickpony to correct the VATS part of the programing?
I have started it off of the injectors and ran it for about 12-14 seconds. I had a real bad miss or maybe more than one miss, and I was having a hard time keeping the engine running.

I thought that if the VATS was the problem, I wouldn't have been able to run it ofer 2-3 seconds before the ECM turned off the fueling

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-17-2009).]

90-93 4.9 is 30hz. 94-95 is 60hz. Looks like that is right. Based on how long it ran I'd bete the vats bypass is working correctly. Can't you verify this with a scanner?

You can use two jumper wires (one +12V, one ground) to test each individual injector if you remove the connectors. This will at least tell you if they are firing.

Have you tried the injectors again since fixing the shorting wires?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-17-2009).]

I havent done anything to it since yesterday. I have located the kits for cleaning for $23.00
Mr Injector:
http://www.mrinjector.us/index.html
And

http://www.fuelinjectorconn...?_a=viewCat&catId=50

I can work the injectors wirh two wires to listen for the clicks. I have been reading on the net about flow rate, cleaning etc.
Not sure on the best way to clean these up yet. It seams that washing them off with some gas, and blowing them off is about as effective as one can do at home. Changing the prindle cap, O rings and the filter would be a good idea, and cheap to do.

I am gonna remove the injectors from the rails today and do some type of test to them to check for stopped up or stuck open conditions. I will post my findings afterwards.

I just got off of the phone with Mr Injector. Bill offerd me good suggestions and advise. He is the top link above. He recommends using a Max 8700 Choke and Carb with the little plastic squirt nozzel, and a rubber plug to force the spray inside the injector with the filter screen removed. Apply 9 volts to the connector. This should get it working better than just soaking overniight in a carb cleaner.
His EBay store:
http://stores.ebay.com/Mr-Injector.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-19-2009).]

quote Originally posted by josef644: Just screw in the patented filter remover, and pull it out.

Ha! Thats a classic there!

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Ha! Thats a classic there!

I knew someone would enjoy that

...but mind if I ask a stupid question? Where exactly are the filter in relation to the injector body (I know this is probably obvious if I would just look at the injectors). You go the replacement filter from (Mr. Injector)?

Cheers,

Sorry M_M, I assumed you had removed one in the past for some reason.

I ordered the injector service kit yesterday, $24.00 delivered.

Here are some pictures of the placement of the filter:

and in the injector but not seated:


I want to give credit to whoever wrote this web page on how to clean their injectors in the link below. I recommend taking the 5 mins or so to read his instructions. The names Mike and Debbie are at the bottom of the page:
http://www.rowand.net/shop/...InjectorCleaning.htm

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-18-2009).]

Very good article. I took a quick peek for a ultrasonic cleaner and found this...

http://www.geeks.com/detail...utm_campaign=CD-2800

Has a stainless steel tank and looks like it would work well. Worth the money for $20 + shipping. I think I'm going to order one up and get a rebuild kit for my injectors also. I'm pretty sure at least one leaks. I just need to find a good, non-flamable liquid to use in the cleaner. Thanks for posting the info Joe.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-18-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Very good article. I took a quick peek for a ultrasonic cleaner and found this...

Yes I would recommend picking up a cheaper ultrasonic cleaner as they work quite well. I have cleaned my 2.8 and 4.9 injectors with one and it made a big difference. On a side note I also used the cleaner to do the door latches on the one car and boy that sure made a difference in the power locks.

josef644 >> thanks for the pictures, that is how I assumed they came apart.

Well I collected all my 'Patented" fuel injector checker parts
one can of Max's 8700 Carb and Choke cleaner
8 " of 5/8" heater hose w/ one ty strap
Air nose putton pushed compressed air on and off unit
one used trunk lock popper button off of a 91 Deville, not seen in the first photo
one lawn mower battery
wire and connectors


Assemble 'Patented" injector checker


The 5/8th hose fits good on the top of the injector. I turned on the air compressor untill I had 40 lbs of air pressure. I put the hose on the injector. Add a bit of the Max's 8700 Carb and Choke cleaner from NAPA, insert the air nozzel into the hose and hold the button down on the air nozzel. I pushed the button up and down and watched for a spray. I was rewarded three times. I had one that would omly drip at first, but was able to clear it up. I had two that I had to play with a bit to get them to un plug an spray. I have six working injectors now. Two have refused to cooperate. I am gonna soak them over night in gas or a carb cleaner of some type. I usually use laquier thinner for carb parts, but I'm not so sure if I want to put these plastic injectors in that kind of thinner.

6 good, and they have a nice TIC<TIC<TIC when the power is applied to the injectors
2 Deceased

Edited to add :
The two deceased ones are now in Berryman's Chem Dip for overnight.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-18-2009).]

I replace as a full unit. Never had a problem that way.

On a side note a wrecking yard close to me wants 76 dollars for a caddy fuel rail with all injectors, harness, and regulator attached. They have a few if your interested. I'm going to pick one up for a fuel rail project.

I'll see what happends after I get them out of the Chem Dip tomorrow. I will be mowing till 2 or so it'll be later in the day before I know if they cleaned up or not.