If you think the Ecotec looks good now, wait till you guys see the paint job the motor is getting.
I'm good with spray cans. One of the benefits of being born near NYC (LOL )
Thanks for the input Bryson. Great to know a fellow believer in "Turbo 4banger Fieros" is showing interest. Let me know when you get that video of your project so I can post it!
----------------------------------------- BTW EVERYONE, THE HEAD IS COMING OFF FRIDAY!!! ENGINE INTERNAL PICS WILL BE POSTED BY SATURDAY NIGHT!!! -----------------------------------------
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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02:08 AM
bryson Member
Posts: 737 From: Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA Registered: Sep 2002
Bad news, because my boss is a S.O.B., and also cause it's the Navy, and working 3 days non-stop is common, no go with taking the head off today. My hope is to do it on Monday.
Good news. I GOT AN 88 CRADLE!!! It's rusty as hell, so it needs to get chemical dipped, but I wanted to strip it anyway before I put PQR-15 on it. A BIG THANKS TO WUZZY FOR HELPING ME WITH THE CRADLE!!!
Also, I found out, "in writing," that the stock Ecotec crankshaft can hold up to 500HP, maybe more!!! So that saves me $1,000. Whenever I can get off of work, I'm placing an order for forged 8.8:1 compression pistons, since that's the weaker part of the motor, minus the connecting rods. Although "weak" is an overstatement. The stock rods can hack over 280HP, and the pistons, although not truly confirmed yet, can hold up to about 315HP, maybe more.
Well, back to work... all 30 hours or so of it. GO NAVY! :P
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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12:03 AM
Mar 21st, 2004
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
A reman'd T3 turbine housing, that is thermal (ceramic) painted, and isn't cracked!!! (my original one is). Also got a second Blackstone (Saab) intercooler, so now I can set up my intercoolers in the same style as Bryson did. (Bryson style intercoolers...hmm, catchy name ) And I got an oil feed and supply kit for my turbo. Cheap, simple, and gets the job done.
On top of that, I pulled a 30 hour shift, and my boss stopped being a P.I.T.A., so now sometime this week, I may actually be able to pull my cylinder head off, most likley Tuesday. So check in Wednesday for a post with pics.
Also, I'm probabbly going to do this for every post now, but here it goes. _________________
Wuzzy is da man!!!!!! _________________
Can't thank him enough for his help with the engine cradle I got. Epping auto salvage, although lacking in desire for customer service on Saturdays, can be helpful when you come during the week, and flash alot of cash in front of them, so thanks to them as well for their help.
Check you guys later on Wednesday!
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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02:19 PM
Apr 1st, 2004
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
THE HEAD IS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did all of that in under 3 hours, and let me tell ya, that timing chain is a P.I.T.A!!! That's what I miss about my old 2.0L OHC. Sorta the same deal, but it's a timing belt, like Hondas, so it can slip right off the side. Not with this puppy, but at least it's good to know that I'll never throw the timing chain cause it's on there soooooo well.
Basicially, the motor looks like crap for only 5,000 miles, but at least the headgasket is in such good shape, it may be able to be reused, which is good, cause I can't find the one I need for the boost levels I'm doing.
The cylinders look good, so good I may not have to re-hone them. They still look honed
And that pic of the oil filter is one of the big things I like about this motor. It comes out the top, so all the oil drains out of it, and it isn't messy when you change it. 88 Fiero's, like mine, have something almost as good, where the oil and the filter come out the same 4 inch wide hole on the bottom of the oil pan, which I will miss sooo much when my duke goes bye-bye.
It's really a shame that I'm ditching my duke. My dad has had a hold of the car, in places warmer than Maine right now, and he says the motor is running at an all time best. The tuning I did right before winter helped, and now I finally perfected the duke, but now it's getting ditched for more HP, so as I've said before, I'll say it again, the duke is a lost cause.
Anywho, the cylinder head looks like it flows REALLY well. It really doesn't look like it needs porting. Maybe port to manifold matching, but thats about all I can think of. I'm definitley going to get the higher lift cams, so I can get more HP per lb of boost, and although I have no clue how to utilize it just yet, I'll get the adjustable cam gears as well.
That's about it for now. I'm awaiting the new pistons, which will hopefully be here by the end of the month. --------------- Hey Maetrix, where is the NEFA show, and what is it? I assume it means "New England 'Fugees (trying to escape this freakin' hellhole) Association"
LOL, anywho, if you want to see the motor, come to Brunswick sometime. I'll get you onto the Air Base here. The motor is in the autoshop they have for us sailors. It's quite a facility. Truely one of a kind as far as Maine goes. --------------- As a final note, let's hope I have as much luck as Bryson (well, he has more skill than luck) with the project. I'll certainly need it if I want to finish the whole thing by August (minus the A/C work).
Keep the input coming everyone, and safe motoring!
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 07-18-2004).]
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10:10 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Just something to consider, Try not to reuse that head gastket as since your using a Forced induction you want the best seal you can get, get a new GM gasket!
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10:40 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
The GM copper gasket requires o-ringing the block. If you're going to get the block o-ringed, you may as well get new steel sleeves. You have to machine the sleeves out, then press them back in, then machine the o-rings, then somehow get the o-rings themselves in, which is a pain in the butt, and the fact that it's hard to find a good machine shop here in Maine makes it very difficult, and expensive. So, no o-ring for me.
There are non-o-ring versions from SCE, but they're mostly race only, not built for daily driving. Copper gaskets in general have leak issues, but with a good machinist, you can avoid it, but like I said, no good machine shops around here.
I was joking about reusing the stock gasket. RSM racing has a nice $90 metal one, similar to what Fel-pro would make, and it holds to 12psi, which will be good to start off until I can get the Multi-layer steel ones that are coming out soon from Cometic.
If I can get the head off within 3 hours, it will be little trouble to replace the metal gasket with an M.L.S. one once the motor is in the car. I'm starting off with small boost levels anyway, about 7-9 psi, so when I'm ready for more than 12 psi, I'll get the right gasket for the job. By that time, late 2004, the M.L.S. ones will be available.
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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10:56 PM
PFF
System Bot
Apr 6th, 2004
bryson Member
Posts: 737 From: Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA Registered: Sep 2002
O-ringing the block isn't too bad, really. Once you get through the first one they are all alot easier. Having someone to help you makea a huge difference. One person can hold the O-ring down in the groove while you tap with a little hammer. Anyway, if you are gonna throw 30psi with a big turbo at that engine, I wouldn't try to cut corners here. If I were you, I would try to find specs on the factory tolernaces and stuff, and see if it is worth the risk. Good luck, and keep the pictures coming!! I think I'm converting to full sequential today, so hopefully I can put the 850cc injectors in! --Bryson
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12:57 PM
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Like I said, good machine shops are hard to come by up in these parts.
The lucky thing is with this motor, to hit the 500HP limit of the stock crank, uber amounts of boost aren't required.
The GM race teams, during their R&D time, hit 350HP at 2psi. The 500 mark came at about 10psi, so you figure since I'll be using street high octane fuel, WITH alcohol injection on race days, it will probabbly take 12 psi to hit between the 450HP-500HP mark.
A rule of thumb with turbo motors is that the more you do to the motor, the more the turbo will pull out of it.
The engine computer I'm gettting is top notch, along with the two stage boost controller, and I'll most likely go with custom grinded cams with adjustable cam gears, so combine all of that with some good tuning time on the dyno, and 500HP can be acheived. ---------------------------------------------------------------- So where in the world is Wells? I've been in Maine less than a year, so I'm not to familiar with it yet.
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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09:55 PM
Apr 7th, 2004
bryson Member
Posts: 737 From: Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA Registered: Sep 2002
I might have missed it, but what size turbo are you using? GM is using a pretty large turbo. Regardless of the engine, a certain amount of airflow is needed to create a certain amount of power. Jim Fueling was making around 600hp at 15psi, but his turbo was massive. Mine can only support about 350whp at 13psi. The head design makes a huge difference in airflow ability of the engine, but the bottom line is that a larger turbo will flow more air, creating more power. Let me know what you find out! I'm pretty interested! --Bryson
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12:25 AM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
I have a T3/T4 Hybrid Turbo at .60 for the compressor and .63 for the turbine. The Ecotec has incredible flow characteristics, even in stock form (photos of the inlets are soon to come).
It isn't always the size of the turbo, but the volumetric effeciency. This can be found using a turbo's compressor map.
The main advantage of a large turbo is that it produces less heat into the intake, and also makes less backpressure.
Obviously, a carefully chosen intercooler, and good exhaust piping can make up for it.
Crank HP that my turbo should be able to support is a bit under 500HP.
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02:33 AM
WikedV6 Member
Posts: 271 From: Elburn, IL USA Registered: Jul 2002
I have a T3/T4 Hybrid Turbo at .60 for the compressor and .63 for the turbine.
That sounds like what comes on a stock Grand National, I have seen those turbo's put a 3800lbs+ GN in to mid 11sec 1/4 mile runs.
Good luck Prasad
------------------ "Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world" 1986 GT (waiting for Buick GN setup trasplant) 1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet) 1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph) Other cars; JaguarXJ6 & Mercedes AMG 500SEC
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02:27 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Wells is even further south than you are. It's down near saco. The Coles Transportation Museum is down there, I'm not sure but I think thats where the show was last year. I haven't heard anything about it, except for someone getting Miss Maine (no flannel lingeire jokes guys) for it, I don't even know when or where it is this year. I wish someone would let me know.
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04:19 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Ok, time for some math to explain the turbo selection.
Pressure ratio is found by adding 14.7 + the target psi, then divide that by 14.7.
I'm shooting for 7 psi to start, that comes out to 1.476 for the pressure ratio.
The second boost stage will be about 11psi, which makes it 1.74 P/R.
I may go to 12 psi, but that's right at the gasket's limit, 1.82 P/R.
For airflow rate, it's the cubic inches X rpm X 0.5 X volumetric effeciency.
How to find volumetric effeciency is the question. A small block Ford is about 85%, so I guess we'll use that for the Ecotec for now till I find an exact number.
134 cid X 7000 RPM redline X 0.5 X 85%
For the airflow, in CFM, I'm at 230cfm. In Lb/min, which for some stupid reason all Garrett turbo maps are rated in, is about 25 Lb/min
Now, add all of that into the compressor map, and you get this.
Effeciency looks to be in the 81%+ area for 11-12 psi, and about 75% for 7 psi.
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 07-18-2004).]
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08:56 PM
Apr 15th, 2004
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Last week, I got the bottom end off. Just got time today to throw the pics up here.
The main bearing journals (beefy as hell)
A shot of the pain in the butt chain drive system for the oil pump, balance shafts, water pump, and cam timing.
And last, but not least, the bolt I broke IN THE BLOCK!!! Luckily, it came out of that corner hole nicely without much damage.
More good news, I got my wastegate today. 38mm Tial with a .5bar/7psi spring. Add that with the two stage boost controller coming soon, I'll hit my target 11-12 psi.
My website is actually making progress. You can see what I've got so far at www.fieroturbo.com. I'm hoping to have it done by monday.
Monday, the pistons and rods are coming out, probabbly the crank too.
Till then, have a good weekend everybody!
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 07-18-2004).]
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10:21 PM
Apr 18th, 2004
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Last week, I got the bottom end off. Just got time today to throw the pics up here.
Holy freakin' smokes!! No wonder the Ecotec is so sturdy. It's built like a tank!
I just re-discovered this thread. Nice project. I wish you the best of luck. I have a feeling that you are going to really embarass some unsuspecting victims.
------------------ Raydar 88 3.4 coupe........... Coming soon... 88 Formula, presently under the knife. Read Nealz Nuze!
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10:56 AM
Apr 19th, 2004
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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01:19 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
FYI: My new e-mail address is fieroturbo@fieroturbo.com. It's the one linked to my site. Saddly, it's about the only thing I can do with my site right now, cause my PC is toast, and the PC's at work are heavily firewalled.
Drop a post peeps! I love the input.
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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06:30 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40730 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
So how's the work going? Did you ever fix your cradle or find another one?
One other question... Is the tranny specific to the Ecotec? Different bolt pattern than the 2.8 and the Duke? (If you already mentioned this, sorry for the redundancy.)
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-22-2004).]
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09:24 AM
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2545 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
And yes, the Getrag on the Ecotec is unique to the Ecotec as far as I know. Even if the bolt holes matched another motor, like the Quad 4, it's the position of the starter motor that messes it all up. The Pontiac Solstice has an Ecotec bolted to a Corvette tranny, so perhaps the bellhousing is similar to the 350 SB, which if it was, then that means with the proper cradle, a 350 swap could be done with a brand spanking new and updated Getrag without using an adaptor plate.
Methinks this would make a great kit
FastIndyFiero... Spots on my site are always open to boosted Fieros, ESPECIALLY an Iron Duke. Anyone brave enough to keep that motor is respected in my book. I'll see if I can't setup a sub-domain, like www.fastindy.fieroturbo.com. I'm making one for Bryson. www.bryson.fieroturbo.com. He gave permission for me to display his car on my site.
Well, if anyone here happens to own Sony Corp, gimmie a new laptop, NOW! Mine is toast.
Word of advice, if you get a Sony, get one off the shelf, those are problem free. NEVER get a customized one from them.
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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05:38 AM
PFF
System Bot
May 5th, 2004
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
"Back from the dead, and with a working laptop now, it's Fieroturbo."
Ok, now that things are back to normal again, the project can start to pick up some more steam.
I got a new dremel tool the other day (back when I was living with my parents, I used theirs for head work) so I can port the heads now, and port match the head to the manifolds too.
It's now offical that I won't be getting the forged crank, so I'm definitley not going beyond 500HP with this motor anytime soon. Some major expenses came about, and the money for a forged crank is not there anymore. ---------------------------------------- Now, about the tranny idea I just thought of yesterday.
My Ecotec Getrag's belhousing comes off, almost like I could swap another on (hinthint). This could mean that I could possibly use a Fiero getrag with an Ecotec Getrag bellhousing on it, and keep the stock tranny mounts, and just use the dickman shift link kit.
I have an Isuzu in my Fiero, so can anyone confirm that the Fiero getrag bellhousing comes off?
Thanks!!!
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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02:44 AM
sanderson Member
Posts: 2203 From: corpus christi, texas, usa Registered: Sep 2001
I believe you can swap a Fiero Getrag bellhousing onto a Quad 4 Getrag. But the Quad 4 Getrag went away in '94. If you do have a Getrag with the Ecotec, I suspect that it's a different transaxle altogether
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08:19 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by fieroturbo: How to find volumetric effeciency is the question. A small block Ford is about 85%, so I guess we'll use that for the Ecotec for now till I find an exact number.
100% VE for a naturally aspirated engine with streetable compression is about 85 ftlbs/litre.
GM's building some nice engines these days. The Northstar has the same kind of bottom end. All of GM's DOHC engines now have the same roller follower setup as seen in the pictures of your cylinder head.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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10:51 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
------------------ PETTY OFFICER (no more airman!) Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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09:14 PM
Jun 11th, 2004
Arnjolt Member
Posts: 109 From: Milford, Michigan Registered: May 2003
Any more news on this? Gotta love the Ecotec. I'm thinking of taking one now and putting it in my Fiero if I don't sell it. I needs me a conversion kit.
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04:40 PM
doublec4 Member
Posts: 8289 From: Oakville, Ontario, Canada Registered: Jun 2003
If there was ever a kit made, I'd be interested down the road FOR SURE...like years from now hahah because I just had my 2.8 rebuilt and its only got 120000 kms so it'll last me.
