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Northstar rebuild: Will style by Will
Started on: 12-29-2003 09:00 PM
Replies: 870 (63433 views)
Last post by: Rickady88GT on 12-02-2018 11:13 PM
AJxtcman
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Report this Post01-28-2007 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I completely forgot to get a picture of the insides of the valve covers to show the metal. I washed them in my spray cabinet parts washer and most of the metal is still in-tacked.

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1fastcaddy
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Report this Post04-22-2007 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fastcaddyClick Here to Email 1fastcaddySend a Private Message to 1fastcaddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

bump it up cause my 96 is comming together slowly but surely. Drew

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Will
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Report this Post04-23-2007 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got new job, climbing out of debt. I expect to proceed in June timeframe.

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Steven Snyder
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Report this Post06-10-2007 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steven SnyderClick Here to visit Steven Snyder's HomePageClick Here to Email Steven SnyderSend a Private Message to Steven SnyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bump!

It's June!

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Will
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Report this Post06-10-2007 09:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I've placed an order for 11.5:1 pistons... there goes another G...

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AJxtcman
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Report this Post06-10-2007 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hmmmmm.
.
I was under the impression that one of the major root causes of all head gasket failure is detonation. I had an 11 to 1 engine with a 4 bolt head that would blow a head gasket every time it detonated!
.
This was a cast Iron block and head, V8 with 10 head bolts. I blew 3 head gasket in about 200 miles. The block was true and the head was also. I was working at AC specialties and the only fix for my car was to O-ring the block. I lived in the Start of the Columbia Gorge and the start of the Cascades. I would have a 1000 feet of altitude change in about a mile. I would be climbing a hill and hear a Ping for about 5 seconds or less and that was all it took. I tried FelPro, Victor, and Detroit head gaskets.
A SBC could with stand more detonation because it had more head bolts.
.
Good luck.
.
How far can you mill the heads with out changing Cam timing?

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Will
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Report this Post06-11-2007 01:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The Northstar is not a SBC.

The head bolt threads for a SBC are in the deck surface. They tension, and thus deform, the cylinder walls when tightened. The cylinder wall loading, and thus cylinder wall deformation change throughout the 4 cycles of the engine. The whole structure of the engine just "moves around" a lot compared to a modern engine like, say... a Northstar.

In the Northstar, the headbolt threads are deep in the outer wall of the block. Since it's an open deck block, tension in the outer wall translates to compression on the inner wall. The loading on the bore wall doesn't change much with the various loading conditions of the engine... the block/head interface is much more stable than it is on an older engine like a Chevy. The torque + angle head bolt tightening procedure also yields tighter, more consistent clamp loads than on an older engine.

I'm also going to be using Cometic MLS headgaskets.

LS2's only have 4 bolts per cylinder and they're running 10.9 on a bigger bore than the Northstar, with a more flexible cylinder head. LS7's are running 11:1 on an even bigger bore. I think the comparatively small bore Northstar will be just fine.

Any decking of the heads or block alters cam timing. How much can be figured out by looking at the pitch diameter of the cam sprockets and the amount decked. The cam sprockets get redrilled for cam timing changes anyway... it shouldn't be a problem to have them redrilled to compensate for machining of the block surface.

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AJxtcman
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Report this Post06-11-2007 07:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The Engine I was refering to was not a SBC, But when I did reference the SBC it was the say that they did not have the same known head gasket issue.
The engine was a race trim 340 in a race car. 3" tire on the front 10.5" on the rear. plastic side windows the whole bit. 69 dart. I saw the same issue with fords also
I worked at a machine shop that mainly did Chevy work, so flaws of other makes was pointed out.

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Will
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Report this Post06-11-2007 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I know SBC's have five (and BBC's have 6!), but there are lots of engines with four that hold lots of cylinder pressure (big block Cadillacs, for instance). Hondas and lots of imports have 4 head bolts/cylinder.

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AJxtcman
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Report this Post06-12-2007 07:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Honda
They don't blow head gaskets

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Will
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Report this Post06-12-2007 07:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

No, never.

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Nashco
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Report this Post06-19-2007 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I've placed an order for 11.5:1 pistons... there goes another G...


Details?

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Will
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Report this Post06-20-2007 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The Ross pistons were heavier than I'd like. I didn't think about compression enough when I ordered the first set of CP's with deeper than stock valve reliefs. I ordered these with the same valve reliefs, but a net +3.5 cc dome. The grooves are cut for the diamond lapped TS rings that I bought. I'm going to have these coated ceramic tops & moly skirts.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-20-2007).]

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mrgrimes
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Report this Post06-20-2007 06:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mrgrimesClick Here to visit mrgrimes's HomePageClick Here to Email mrgrimesSend a Private Message to mrgrimesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will, Alan Johnson sells a pistion when combind with a .040 gasket will produce 11.8:1 Did you port your cylinder cambers, if so what did they cc at? I received my 12:1 CP pistons and will be interested to see how yours turn out.

Darrin

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Will
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Report this Post06-20-2007 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I know Alan has pistons. His prices are competitive with what you can assemble from other aftermarket MFG's. I just wanted to do it my way. I'm going to be setting up .035 quench. When I get a heads/cams package, compression will go up to 12.5.

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Report this Post06-21-2007 12:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The Ross pistons were heavier than I'd like. I didn't think about compression enough when I ordered the first set of CP's with deeper than stock valve reliefs. I ordered these with the same valve reliefs, but a net +3.5 cc dome. The grooves are cut for the diamond lapped TS rings that I bought. I'm going to have these coated ceramic tops & moly skirts.



So what are you doing with the old pistons? Didn't you pay to get the Ross pistons coated too? What did the CR work out to be with them? Also, have you posted what the actual weights were of your different pistons you've got around? Did you ever figure out the crank balance issue you were having way back?

I know it's a lot of questions, I'm a curious fella.

Bryce

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Will
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Report this Post06-21-2007 04:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Good thing you're not a cat.

I had the Ross pistons coated. They had standard ring grooves. I've already sold them. The first set of CP's has also been coated. Compression with them would have been in the low 10's. Stock is 10.5. I didn't think about it the way I should have, but I'm not going to all this trouble to build an all motor engine with less compression than stock. If I get a wild enough hair (hare?), I may build a 10:1 engine and put about 10 psi on it... Otherwise those pistons will sit on my shelf until someone wants them. Their utility is a bit limited because the grooves are cut for diamond lapped rings which are of course a little thinner than standard rings.

However... they may end up being just right for the Sealed Power rings which have very good thickness tolerancing for an OTS ring. I'll have to see what the groove width comes out to...

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Report this Post06-21-2007 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Good thing you're not a cat.


Indeed! So, did you ever figure out where you went wrong on the balance? Have you kept your piston weights written down somewhere? I was hoping to have that documented in here somewhere for future reference. I don't know why, just seems like it may be useful to somebody someday, maybe even me. Thanks for the update.

Bryce

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Will
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Report this Post06-21-2007 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The crank that got F@#%ed up was the result of a miscommunication between myself and the shop and the balancer's lack of experience with that sort of work (lathe vice drill).

There isn't anything *wrong* with the current balance setup. I just need to figure out why my math isn't giving the same result as the measurement. The measurement is perfectly valid... but also on hold because the piston weight will change yet again.

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Report this Post07-09-2007 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for toddshotrodsClick Here to visit toddshotrods's HomePageClick Here to Email toddshotrodsSend a Private Message to toddshotrodsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Edit - found what I was looking for in WAWUZAT's thread

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 07-09-2007).]

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Will
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Report this Post07-09-2007 05:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Daggonit, I was just going to post that the bottom of the oil manifold (plate between lower crank case & oil pan) was flat and only had the heads of the main bolts sticking through it.

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toddshotrods
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Report this Post07-10-2007 01:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for toddshotrodsClick Here to visit toddshotrods's HomePageClick Here to Email toddshotrodsSend a Private Message to toddshotrodsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Daggonit, I was just going to post that the bottom of the oil manifold (plate between lower crank case & oil pan) was flat and only had the heads of the main bolts sticking through it.


I appreciate the intent to answer Actually, you told me something that wasn't obvious in his pics. He has long studs protruding through instead of bolt heads. I should be able to wack quite a bit off the overall height.

I'm sure I'll still have questions when I start rebuilding it. I am going to study you guys' threads first.

Edit - I forgot to ask - so you think my two-stage dry sump will work?

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 07-10-2007).]

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Will
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Report this Post07-10-2007 06:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The early engines through '95 have stud headed bolts at all locations in the inner two rows. The windage tray bolts to these studs. In the (I think) '96 and later engines, the windage tray was redesigned to bolt under the heads of all 20 main bolts. The stud headed bolts were replaced by conventional bolts except for one location which is where the oil pickup support bolts.

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Report this Post07-10-2007 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for toddshotrodsClick Here to visit toddshotrods's HomePageClick Here to Email toddshotrodsSend a Private Message to toddshotrodsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks Will, I have a 2000 motor.

Sorry for jacking your tread

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Will
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Report this Post07-22-2007 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm thinking of some changes to make to my accessory drive, so I wanted to remind myself where this thread with pics of the front of the engine is...

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...020208-2-012465.html

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Report this Post08-07-2007 01:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mrgrimesClick Here to visit mrgrimes's HomePageClick Here to Email mrgrimesSend a Private Message to mrgrimesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hi Will,

Have you ever looked into a after market harmonic balancer? It looks like the small block ford as the same snout diamiter.

Darrin

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Report this Post08-21-2007 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Any update Will?

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Will
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Report this Post08-21-2007 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Shipping two spacecraft to the launch site this weekend and going to South America to put them back together for a week after.

IOW... working crazy hours and been so busy I don't know whether to wipe my @$$ or scratch my nose (or vice versa).

Plus side... I'm salary plus overtime, so I have more money for parts (or credit card debt).

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Will
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Report this Post08-21-2007 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

Hi Will,

Have you ever looked into a after market harmonic balancer? It looks like the small block ford as the same snout diamiter.

Darrin


I hadn't. There's nothing wrong with the stock one. It doesn't carry nearly as much of the engine's MOI as the flywheel and can be replaced with the engine in the car should I find a suitable replacement. It's also the crank pulley, provides the clamp load on the oil pump drive sleeve and has the journal on which the front main seal runs.

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Will
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Report this Post08-31-2007 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK EVERYONE'S NUMBERS, EVEN YOUR OWN!

CP was about to make me pistons with a net 11+ cc dome... I had to be very assertive in convincing them to recheck their numbers... hello 13.5 compression.

The real number is a NET ~3.5 cc dome for 11.5 compression.

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Report this Post09-02-2007 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What size pin are you using?
You are using the the Eagle rods?

93-99
DIMENSION
Comp. Ht. Inch. 1.256
C. Ratio 10.3:1
Pin. Dia. Inch 0.8658

SIZES
STD, .25, .50
.
.
.


'00-03
Flat top.
1.250" CH.
Anodized head.
.8266 pin dia.
.
.
.
late 03 FWD to current... 04 RWD to current
Piston Pin Diameter 0.9053-0.9055 in

4.4L S/C
Piston Pin Diameter 0.9448-0.9449 in

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Will
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Report this Post09-03-2007 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm using the standard piston pin diameter but with CP supplied pins which are shorter and lighter than the GM pins.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-03-2007).]

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AJxtcman
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Report this Post09-03-2007 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

GM uses 3 pin sizes in FWD 4.6L
I am wondering what rods you are using?
I like the GM rods and have a lot of sets, but I may build a 00 engine. I have soooooo much more I can do with the PCM.

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Report this Post09-03-2007 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

As near as I can tell, GM doesn't sell the pins separately, do they? My manuals show them as NS, only available in a piston assembly. If you have a good p/n for the first generation pins I'd be interested.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

GM uses 3 pin sizes in FWD 4.6L
I am wondering what rods you are using?
I like the GM rods and have a lot of sets, but I may build a 00 engine. I have soooooo much more I can do with the PCM.


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Will
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Report this Post09-03-2007 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm not using any '00 or later hardware. Eagle rods are for '99 and older pins.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-03-2007).]

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AJxtcman
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Report this Post09-04-2007 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'm not using any '00 or later hardware. Eagle rods are for '99 and older pins.



Thanks
The only rods avalible are 99?
I have not looked for them.
I have only one set of the 99 and prior.
Now what size pin is the best? smaller or bigger?
Smaller is or can be lighter, but the surface area is less.
The larger has more surface area, but is heavier.
The S/C motor uses a large pin.

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Will
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Report this Post09-04-2007 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The Eagle rods were made for the '99 and older engines... before the Y2K engines even came out. Since they all have the same bearing bore diameter and length, only the pin is different.

Dunno the design considerations behind going to a smaller pin on Y2K engines, but they did go to a bigger pin for the SC engines as you observe.

I wanted Hank the Crank ceramic piston pins, but they went out of business or something.

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Report this Post09-04-2007 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

probably related to in cylinder pressures/torque.

If you're going high revving low torque, you can get away with a smaller wrist pin. High torque (esp supercharged!) requires larger pin to reach 100k mile reliability.

I think the 2000+ engines might have been originally designed with a higher rev limiter than the <99's

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Report this Post09-04-2007 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

DIMENSIONS
93-99 Pin. dia. Inch 0.8658
00-03 pin. dia. Inch 0.8266
03-08 pin. dia. Inch 0.9053-0.9055 This is from the late 03 engine update
4.4L Pin Diameter 0.9448-0.9449
.
4.6L info
Connecting Rod Length Center to Center 5.9449 in
Connecting Rod Bore Diameter - Bearing End 2.2495-2.2501 in
Width 0.8572 in
.
I am just throwing this out. I am not sure what is the best way to go. Big pin dia with light weight aftermarket pin? The rods all look the same just the small end is different. Maybe the next engine I build for my self. hmmmmm.

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Report this Post09-05-2007 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Does the wrist pin size affect dwell time? I can't remember. long rod vs short rod. big pin vs little pin. Hmmm I am way to old to think any more.

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