Since we can't stay on topic in the glass window thread I have decided to start a new thread in hopes that we can stop cluttering the other thread. So far its been "he said she said", Madcurl has ignored my suggestions to give us some proof that at least some of his chops are symetrical, and MustangsBware has some how been accused of somehow not taking care of Wills car.
Right now the closest we have to a answer was provided by jscott1 Unfortunately this is not definitive enough, the only way this issue will get closure is to break out the measuring tape on the cars said to be off.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 08-27-2008).]
I dont think this is your purpose, but Its completely irrellevant to do anything to a low rez picture like that, on top of everything else, if the camera was not at exactly 90* to the car, say it was at 80*, then the picture will look straight, but the object will appear shorter and smaller on the far side of the frame.
I havent been in this "other thread" but this sounds to me like little more than someone trying to start crap about someone elses work for no reason, and unless you have done better yourself, you dont even have any room to comment, not unless you sit a can of pop on the roof and it slides off to the side.
If you have to break out a protracter and micrometer to figure out if its wrong, its good enough.
Pop can idea won't work either. You can't be 100% sure the car is level being either the ground it sits on or the suspension it rides on. Personally if the naked eye can't see the flaw then why worry about it. If you think the car is off maybe you should check your house. Square and plum in a new house is a radical idea lol. Not to mention perfection can not be obtained by mere humans, we just were not built for that.
Chops are in fact CUSTOM work and with that in mind it will not be perfect unless you never want your car back. Wish I could afford a chop top.
Yes, its true, You can't expect a chop to be perfect. You can measure a a stock roof and it won't be perfect. The issue here is that 3 people have seen choptops from Archie that they claim has obviously weren't symmetrical. This is not a problem as long as the owners of the cars are happy and the only reason we are discussing this is because people had problems with other people stating what they observed.
Originally posted by MstangsBware: Would help if the line used for the measurements on the car where straight.
Just so you know how that drawing was created...
I boxed in the Stinger, as best I could using reference points as best I could see them. Given that the picture was probably not taken from a point perfectly orthogonal to the car, or to the ground...the lines are not guaranteed to be straight. But they are parallel.
The X1, Y1, and Z1 were copied and pasted such that X1 = X2, Y1= Y2, and X1= X2 by Definition.
Then I placed those identical lines on the reference points and within the constraints of the resolution of that drawing the points lined up. I admit that any discrepancy on a scale drawing (photograph) is going to be orders of magnitude smaller than on the real thing. But it was stated that it was visible in photographs. I can't see any photographic evidence from the photos that we have to work with.
Pop can idea won't work either. You can't be 100% sure the car is level being either the ground it sits on or the suspension it rides on. Personally if the naked eye can't see the flaw then why worry about it. If you think the car is off maybe you should check your house. Square and plum in a new house is a radical idea lol. Not to mention perfection can not be obtained by mere humans, we just were not built for that.
Chops are in fact CUSTOM work and with that in mind it will not be perfect unless you never want your car back. Wish I could afford a chop top.
I didnt mean roll, I meant SLIDE. Granted thats a bit of an exageration, still, unless people walk by the car and ask eachother what the hell happened to that poor thing, its not something to qibble about unless someone themselves says they have personally built something better.
I boxed in the Stinger, as best I could using reference points as best I could see them. Given that the picture was probably not taken from a point perfectly orthogonal to the car, or to the ground...the lines are not guaranteed to be straight. But they are parallel.
The X1, Y1, and Z1 were copied and pasted such that X1 = X2, Y1= Y2, and X1= X2 by Definition.
Then I placed those identical lines on the reference points and within the constraints of the resolution of that drawing the points lined up. I admit that any discrepancy on a scale drawing (photograph) is going to be orders of magnitude smaller than on the real thing. But it was stated that it was visible in photographs. I can't see any photographic evidence from the photos that we have to work with.
Hell I really don't care--The whole issue is not with the Stinger but with Will's car but I did see the same issue in the Stinger. Its not my car so I am not going to worry with it till Will gets the car and he looks it over. Then he can state it himself that the car is indeed not right and that should be enough proof for everyone, even the dedicated Archee followers that believe he can do no wrong. All I can say is that I know what I saw the last time I looked at the car and even the guy that was there next to me saw it as soon as I said something.
Ok lets say the top is off. Wouldn't a simple measurement of the triangle side glass show this? I mean the little glass behind the door windows or even the back glass and its frame. I personally have yet to see a chop in person so I can offer no testament but I can throw ideas on how to check.
Pictures will fail, reason being was stated before, the camera has to be set at a perfect 90* and so does the car. The simple fact is there probably is NO car that sits perfectly on the ground. Think of a normal person sitting in a Geo Metro, its gonna lean. After time it will hold that lean. After 20 years (even with all new suspension) the car will still have a lean but not as strong as before. So now we know that the car will not sit "perfectly" on hopefully level ground. So a picture will not reveal a flaw unless the flaw is WAY out there.
One thing I do know for sure is optical illusions. When I did drywall finishing we had a job where pictures were to be mounted into the wall so they were flush. 16 pictures in 4 rows of 4. 1 foot by 1 foot squares. When viewed from a slight angle, and I mean very slight off center, the rows looked as if they leaned towards the side you were on "off center" and the further to the side you stood the lean got worse. Nothing like 8 grown men arguing over which way it leans lol. After 3 hours of measuring, using the 1 foot by 1 foot template, and just plain pulling our hair out we finally discovered it was our eyes. Could this also be the effect some are seeing based on where they stand vs. level of ground?
Only true way to find out if the tops are off is to measure measure measure, and only measure the car inside and out. To add variables like the ground, tire pressure, suspension height, and yes even lighting.
not even the factory got them all symetrical, so what makes you think that a customizer has any shance in the world of getting it perfect every time?
------------------ Currently aStreet Rod/custom fab student at Wyotech in Sacramento. 1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, 151,000 miles!decklid window, silver guages. rear ended someone, and now the rebuilding starts! More pics of my 87 GT can be found here 1985 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 auto, 222K miles and counting <-recently lost to arson (6yo bro playing with fire) RIP! 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.7L 4x4, 72K <-Daily driver A 4 year olds knowledge of science: No matter how much jello you put into a swimming pool you still can't walk on water.
Exactly, Thats already been said. According to some there are some choptops that have a obvious low side. This has never been proven or disproved, its never really been talked about on the forum until now and it has exploded. I honestly don't understand why it has caused the stir that it has, if I had known it would have been such a soft spot I might have kept my contributions to the debate to myself.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 08-27-2008).]
So this whole thing is about something that can't be easily proven online, about someone else's car, who hasn't even seen the car yet?
Tried reading through the other thread but couldn't keep track of this subject. In the picture above the left side of the stinger looks slightly squished, but that is obviously a very hard point to make using a picture as already discussed being nearly impossible to get a perfect angle with a camera.
Unfortunately, I imagine even if someone did break out the measuring tape and found the cars to be right on, there would be a whole new argument that the measurements were faked.
If the people who own the cars don't have any issues, then whats the problem?
Edit: Or is the argument really more about the glass windows?
[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 08-27-2008).]
Edit: Or is the argument really more about the glass windows?
I gave up trying to discuss the glass windows in the other thread.
Since this thread in particular is all about lopsided chops, and I own a chop...so I'm commenting
Well the "problem" was stated to exist in all Notchback chops. People that I know and respect say they have seen it. I've seen the Stinger, and I've seen Will's car, and although I didn't take a tape measure to them, I didn't see anything that jumped out at me as being "wrong"
Also, I vaugely remember it being stated that Will's car was so far off that it was being "reworked" to correct the problem. Yet Will himself says he has never seen the "problem" that we are all talking about.
The photo from the Stinger is inconclusive, except that within the parameters of that particular photograph there is nothing glaringly obvious.
So I agree, untill we have more data, we are debating in a vacuum.
I’ll post in this thread before it hits the trashcan where it belongs. I own the GBCT, Archie’s first choptop. This car has been in Texas and I’m sure some of you have seen it there. Is my car perfect…….no Stock Fiero’s aren’t perfect. Is it good enough for me,… yes. I knew what I was buying and was happy with what I got. Do I mind if people find a flaw in my car and tell me about it…no. Hell I’m usually the one pointing out things to others that they would never notice. Do I think someone who talks about my car behind my back or on the Internet but won’t say anything to me to my face is a chicken-s###, **** ****…….Yes
I don’t feel the need to put down other peoples work to try to make mine look better.
According to some there are some choptops that have a obvious low side. This has never been proven or disproved, its never really been talked about on the forum until now and it has exploded. I honestly don't understand why it has caused the stir that it has, if I had known it would have been such a soft spot I might have kept my contributions to the debate to myself.
So now your saying, "ACCORDING TO SOME." That's strange, I only read (3) person with and your buddy Mstangbware as the spoke persons and now you're wondering "why" it has caused an issue.
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:
The new thread is the appropriate place to discus the possibility of uneven chops, not for bashing.
So now you're calling it "POSSIBILITY" of uneven choptops. Before you ran to start another thread you just about swore by the testimonials of others it was uneven, but now it's "POSSIBILITES."
Lets recap. Before your admission this was your basis for the discussion;
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:
I don't see it in the pictures at all, but its still hard to ignore the 3 people saying its off. The truth is that the only problem here is if the owners of the chops have a problem with the roof of there cars being a noticeable amount off.
This was "your moment" to shine with diginity by backing away. However, like a raging bull you charge forward.
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:
None of us have anything to gain from Archie's chops being off, and even if a few are a little off it really only matters to the owner of the cars. Neither of us have documentation and your trying to jump in without th information sitting in your garage. Like I keep saying I haven't and don't see it,I have seen the car at Loyde's but didn't payed much attention to it when I had the chance but there are three other who said they have. You could do us a favor and take a measuring tape to the 2 of yours you have access to. You have the ability so why not entertain us? If I owned a Archie chop as long as it wasn't to far off I think I could live with it. With wills permission if I'm ever able to get close to his car I will measure it if no one else has. If we're going to keep talking about this it need to go to PMs or start a new thread.
Please take notice;
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:
None of us have anything to gain from Archie's chops being off. Like I keep saying I haven't and don't see it,I have seen the car at Loyde's but didn't payed much attention to it when I had the chance .
Nothing to gain huh? Yet you start another thread. No documentation huh, but still you continue. You stated you seen the (car), but didn't pay any attention, but you start another thread
Do us all a favor. Pull out your self-righteous sword from its sheet and fall upon it. For you have truly embarrass yourself, again.
------------------
"Friends don't let friends drive stock"
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 08-27-2008).]
I am NOT an authority on chop tops, Archies work or anyone elses.
I DO know the following from experience for what it's worth:
1. I worked for a time with AMT ERTL as a model kit design engineer, (model cars)
2. To design model cars we had to take measurements and cut templates from a real car to scale it down in order to make a master drawing from which prototypes and molds were eventually made. (This is before CAD was in wide use and becuse we simply could not get full body CAD data from the OEMs). We cut profile and sectional templates every 2 inches along the body. Our master models were rendered in 1/8th or 1/10th scale before being pantographed into the steel molds at 1/24th or 1/25th scale/
3. I personally measured and cut templates for many cars.
4. I discovered that every car I measured and templated from a 57' Chevy to a Plymouth Prowler had dimensional differences, (some small, some great) from side to side or front to rear.
5. Looking at the car before and after making measurements and templates you would swear that everything was straight as an arrow and completely symmetrical.
You don't quite do you? This was a nice clean thread, now you've come and muddied the water.
As for you starting another thread regarding Archie's possible "flaws" I find it reckless and creates animosity among the ranks. Although, I have a few relatives and friends in TX, but thanks to you and Mstangbware and your self-righteousness by critiquing every inch that Archie has created for his customers and me why would I want to subject myself to that kind of hatred.
Mark my words, "I will never bring any of my Fieros to a Fiero show in TX" for I'm sure you wouldn't loose any sleep. Therefore, I’d rather by-pass TX and head straight to FL and attend Daytona Fiero show. There my car and I would be welcomed without somebody coming over with a ruler to measure something that is imaginary 1/6th off.
Note to self; When traveling through TX, don't think of Bush, but rather think of Mstangbware and jmbishop.
------------------
"by-pass TX cause, Mstangbware and jmbishop have imaginary rulers"
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 08-27-2008).]
Wow, I am really puzzled by this thread. Where are the ACTUAL customers complaining about dimensions being off? If none of the CUSTOMERS are complaining, then neither should anyone else. The work Archie does for the Fiero community is nothing short of amazing.
<edit for spelling>
[This message has been edited by Hulki U. My-BFF (edited 08-27-2008).]
Mark my words, "I will never bring any of my Fieros to a Fiero show in TX" for I'm sure you wouldn't loose any sleep. Therefore, I’d rather by-pass TX and head straight to FL and attend Daytona Fiero show.
Oh man that hurts, punish the whole state because of a disagreement with a few? The state of Texas still welcomes all chop tops.
For the purposes of giving those who want to do their own chops a head start I'll explain a few things about how I did mine. For those that don't know I have done 2 now. My first one I measured before I cut and it came out like crap on the windshield portion. Couldn't get a decent measurement and ended up cutting it back apart and rewelding it. The second chop I didn't measure anything before I cut. I just cut off the roof where I wanted and started fitting it back together. I leaned the windshield back using an angle finder and got the A-pillars within 1 degree. Figured it was close enough since I can lean on the bumper and probably change it 3 degrees. The back is easier to get a measurement because there is a straight edge right below the decklid. The problem with the back was getting the rear hoop to line up to the roof. I'm talking about fiberglass parts now. The hard top roof has a bubble in the middle and even on a stock fiero you can see the roof angles don't line up too well. I ended up grinding the metal mounting pads down to almost nothing to get the front of the roof panel to sit lower. No sense in chopping if your roof is on stilts I figured. when I set the rear hoop section on the outside lines flowed well but when standing back there appeared to be a dip because of the bubble in the roof. My fix was to use rubber blocks in the center and bolt the sides down. Now I'm confident my roof has better lines than a stock fiero. It's not perfect, these are fieros after all, but I did my best to blend in the flaws and take attention away from things I couldn't do anything about.
Originally posted by joshua riedl: ...when I set the rear hoop section on the outside lines flowed well but when standing back there appeared to be a dip because of the bubble in the roof...
I wonder if that is the cause of the wobble I've noticed? Interesting indeed.
Since we can't stay on topic in the glass window thread I have decided to start a new thread in hopes that we can stop cluttering the other thread. So far its been "he said she said", Madcurl has ignored my suggestions to give us some proof that at least some of his chops are symetrical, and MustangsBware has some how been accused of somehow not taking care of Wills car.
Right now the closest we have to a answer was provided by jscott1 Unfortunately this is not definitive enough, the only way this issue will get closure is to break out the measuring tape on the cars said to be off.
I have an extra long t-square and a carpenters level, so I am going to borrow a laser transit from a friend and use a micrometer from work so I can get all these proper measurements this long holiday weekend because I have nothing better to do with my time than help someone with their own personal vendetta against another member of this Fiero community. At least by appearances there seems to be a desire to bash someone else's work. Besides, all you boys are old enough to fight your own battles. Jonathan, can you get some NASA computer time to calculate all the raw data once I have? NOT! Per a pervious comment above, the "B" pillar windows are add-ons and should not be a factor in the supposed problem.
GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! It is my car and I don't have a problem with whatever the problem is supposed to be. This coming from the guy that just replaced the rear deck lid because the original had the rear wing holes patched in it that were visible from the underside. I also repainted because of small paint chips underneath the side trim pieces. You don't know me at all, so you do not understand how important a sense of symmetrical balance is to me when viewing objects. This being in design work I do for a living or laying out kitchen cabinets or hanging pictures at home. It drives my wife crazy. I have got the laser sights and measuring tools to prove it. Of coarse, this is my opinion and to me the only one that counts. And you know what they say about opinions and a$$ wholes. So say what you will. I DON'T CARE.
( As a additional to my comment in other thread, I just remembered that I don't know if my accident my be a contributing to this supposed "defect". The upper rear clip did take a beating by the drivers suicide door and cracked along trailing edge. All looks good to me now.)
If you want to invest in and start your own Fiero chop-top business, go right ahead if you can do it better. All the power to you. Knowing how Archie builds his chop tops and his acquired experience, I'll stick with him. I don't understand why this supposed defective doesn't show up in the fastbacks since the underlying frame and build methodology is the same.
Now if someone can come up with a solution to the glass windows I am willing to listen as long as I don't have to invest what I paid for the Stinger to begin with to get them. Oh yeah, I expect the look to be near perfection. At least my level of perfection, since I don't have the ability to pickup the Archie's supposed defect above. Everything, I have seen on this board to date says the window are not there yet. I have researched windows on my own locally and run into same issues with curvature. Until then, I will continue to show the car with the windows down. Typically, the car is a sunny day and show car driven only. When its not, the present windows suffice.
I feel like I'm caught in the cross fire between a civil war here on PFF.
I consider Curley, Archie, Stephen, Blake, and others my friends. If you all want to disagree on the finer points of chop tops, that's cool. But let's not let this degrade into the chaos of name calling and bickering that used to be only caused by trolls.
I don't think Archie mean any offense to the North Texas Fiero Club, and I think we all want Will to get his car back.
None of our cars are perfect from the factory, and once you cut and weld on them....well let's just say you have to work with what you got. It is what it is.
Can we just let this thread fade into the atchives and get back to what we do best, and that is help each other to make our cars better???
"Nine years ago Cliff brought forth on this Earth, a new forum, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all persons are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that forum, or any forum so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. " Apologies to A. Lincoln.
Originally posted by Miach: Nothing like 8 grown men arguing over which way it leans lol. After 3 hours of measuring, using the 1 foot by 1 foot template, and just plain pulling our hair out we finally discovered it was our eyes.
that's funny!...
Brother Soctt... loved the eye doodles... They said magical and strange things to me.
Curl... you and the cars have a lot of fans here. I can't think of anyone that wouldn't like to see you at some random gathering. (I promise I will use a plastic protractor. I kid, I kid...)
I have an extra long t-square and a carpenters level, so I am going to borrow a laser transit from a friend and use a micrometer from work so I can get all these proper measurements this long holiday weekend because I have nothing better to do with my time than help someone with their own personal vendetta against another member of this Fiero community. At least by appearances there seems to be a desire to bash someone else's work. Besides, all you boys are old enough to fight your own battles. Jonathan, can you get some NASA computer time to calculate all the raw data once I have? NOT! Per a pervious comment above, the "B" pillar windows are add-ons and should not be a factor in the supposed problem.
Jeff
There is no reason to measure--Put the car on level ground, step back behind it about 20' or so. Look at the Pass side NB areacompared to the DRV side NB area. You will see that the Pass side lays over more than the DRV side.
Like I said in the other Thread, if you are happy with the car then thats all that matters.
I’ll post in this thread before it hits the trashcan where it belongs. I own the GBCT, Archie’s first choptop. This car has been in Texas and I’m sure some of you have seen it there. Is my car perfect…….no Stock Fiero’s aren’t perfect. Is it good enough for me,… yes. I knew what I was buying and was happy with what I got. Do I mind if people find a flaw in my car and tell me about it…no. Hell I’m usually the one pointing out things to others that they would never notice. Do I think someone who talks about my car behind my back or on the Internet but won’t say anything to me to my face is a chicken-s###, **** ****…….Yes
I don’t feel the need to put down other peoples work to try to make mine look better.
Just to piggy back on what DL10 said, when I owned the GBCT, I spent LOADS of time pouring over the car, from all angles and many distances. I never noticed anything lopsided.
Madcurl, you bust me up. So does this mean you are going to have to have new tour shirts printed up for your fans? I'm sure the Lone Star state will declare a respectful period of mourning. *snicker*
i see no problems with the car but if anyone has the argument get a laserlevel and do the math if its your car you worry about it so what if its off by 1/10000000000th of an inch
SO does mike and archie's chops look the same. Or is there a difference betweent the two. I understand they are both performed differently, but side to side you would be able to notice an archie chop vs' a mike chop just a question?
SO does mike and archie's chops look the same. Or is there a difference betweent the two. I understand they are both performed differently, but side to side you would be able to notice an archie chop vs' a mike chop just a question?
I've seen Wills car also. Personal feelings and friendships aside, I noticed a lean in the roof. Not knowing why or really caring at the time I didn't pay it much attention and continued to walk passed it. Now I'm going to tell what COULD be the reason. The only straight looking parts on a fiero are the A pillars, B pillars and rear hoop. Guess what THEY AREN'T STRAIGHT. They all have curves. so picking a focal point is difficult. Now for the LIST. First Mechanical reasons. Tires aired up the same? Doubt it. Level Ground? NOT where it was. chassis twist? If it's on uneven ground there may be some. Something got tightened down too much? EASY TO DO Uneven body work? Have you ever tried to mirror body work? NOT EASY TO ME As for the metal under the body. You can control this a lot easier to get it all straight. Any one who attempts this HAS TO MAKE TONS OF MEASUREMENTS. As for Archies chops I THINK he uses a template for the back window to aid in alignment. Correct me if I'm wrong. If this is out of whack then maybe it can cause more than one car to be lopped. But crap you'd think someone would notice this and fix it over the years. So I'll dismiss this. Weld Warp, doubt it. Too much strength around the areas.
OPTICAL REASONS Sunlight! Good one this even made the shadows on the moon unbelievable to millions! Shadows from light cause many MANY illusions in optical measurements. Point of View. Also kills angles. Color and DIRECTION it stacked up. this causes micro shadowing changing darkening the color and thereby causes difference in anything. Surroundings. Jscott illustrated this above. Height differences surrounding the object can and will change it's appearance.
Measurements: NEVER USE more than one measuring device to make Cross measurements. I've seen this done time and time again. I watched a cabinet man ruin his work and require unsightly fillings due to his measurements being made with his Tape and his cutter using a different tape. His cutters tape was SHORT by 3/16 of an inch at 4 feet. and got shorter as the distance go longer. All measuring devices used TOGETHER should be checked with each other.
Now my own CHOP. I've had several people tell me that the drivers A pillar was low while it was in the garage. Once in the sun the Passenger A pillar looked Low? Why I don't know but I've checked measurements time and time again.
So why Bicker? Insinuate? Insult etc etc etc. Take forums with a Grain of salt and caution. Think before you post and read before you submit.
"The World's going to hell in a basket!" "Then get out of the Basket!"
Topic Closed
The state of Texas still welcomes all chop tops.
