So say a man of Christian faith, walks away from his wife; the consequences that goes with that and the series of event, is that not God's plan in your life?
Funny that when something good happens to your life or when something tragic happens, like a death of a love one, it is considered God's will.
But everything else is free will? According to Christian theology, God knows your future already and has predestine ones to follow him, before they were born.
This is correct, and it is just as difficult (if not more) for the believer as the nonbeliever.
The best compromise I can come up with is that God, being omniscient, knows all outcomes of all decisions ever made and to be made. Does He guide people toward one decision or another? Yes; some call that their conscience speaking. With foreknowledge of everything, He does guide History, in the micro as well as the macro:
Romans 8:28-30: And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
He foreknew and He predestined. Did one follow the other? I don't know, because that I believe that God exists outside TIme, so this Universe of Space and Time of ours exists within His Being. If, as I have come to the conclusion (and I am open to argument over flaws in my reasoning, if they don't jibe with His Word), He sees all in what I could only call an "instant," than there is no before or after, so foreknowledge and predestination are one. I freely admit that I am still working through this concept in my head, so I can't even call it a finished theory.
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2 Timothy 9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Ephesians 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
These do not argue against my suppositions, unless I read them wrong, in which case, these words supersede mine, and I'll just have to keep working on my theory. He created the Universe and everything in it for His good purposes, so I'm just glad that I am called.
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Free Will is an illusion. Even Albert Eisenstein said this.
Humans act and make decisions based of determinism, not by free will.
Possibly, if Einstein was looking at things mathematically. He would then suppose that B could only follow A, and then C would have to happen. If he had leaned on his Jewish faith, especially his Ashkenazi heritage (which puts he and I within 30th cousins....), he would have bent more toward free will and a need for supplication to an all powerful but much more distant Creator than the one described in the above verses.
I got just a couple of question for all you people who believe in whatever your preferred god or religion is,
Just who actually wrote those books, Koran's, bibles, torah and all the rest, was it god or was it some man who heard voices ? Why is it now hundreds of years if not thousands of them after the beginning of all these religions people take the word of someone who again not sure of the exact time but hundreds if not thousands of years later you are still believing what someone said who heard voices and attributes them to a god of their own making. Me I have already said what I think of people who hear voices and then say I spoke to god. WTF are you people sheep, because nowadays when someone says they talked to god or god told me to kill all those people we lock them up? Don't we !
Now me personally I could care less what you believe in, believe what ever you want, you have that right by the US constitution, but so does that other guy who decides to think for himself and say there is non now doesn't he. But even on here where we have every religion represented by some here, why is it so bad for someone to not believe in any god?
I noticed that after posting what I believe I got some negs, no problem I could care less what some bible thumper believes. Maybe you should all join that ministry I just saw in the news this morning who told his flock of believers that god needs to buy him a new 65 million dollar plane so he can spread his word of god all over the world. Pastor Creflo Dollar is he speaking the word of god or just another Jim and Tammy Fay ?
Steve, I've previously rated you positively, and am not changing it. I have no problems with these questions, asked honestly.
The Koran (or its several other spellings) was written by Mohammed over a period of years. If you read through it, you can see his change of opinions on many subjects, especially Jews and Christians, as he gets more radical in his brand of proselytizing. He goes from "Allah gave Palestine to the Jews" to "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." There's some cutting off hands and feet in there, as well.
I'd include the Torah into the Bible, as I believe that it is one book in many chapters, which tells a story of Love on a grand scale. Sixty six books were written by over 40 authors over a period of about 1600 years, but an amazing continuity exists, even though the writers were kings and shepherds, tax collectors and doctors, fishermen and poets (among others), writing in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Although the writers each have their own style, the Message is consistent. It's worth reading, IMO. I'm going through it for my fifth time, the second in chronological order.
If someone says that they "talked to god" (and I'll use the lower case, here), then we simply have to line it up with what we know that God has already said. If it matches - and what He last said has to do with leading people to forgiveness - then we can avoid putting that person in jail. If he blows up a pressure cooker bomb and kills women and children, then we should handle him a bit more severely, within the limits of civil law (Yes, this is an entirely different topic).
As to why it is so bad not to believe - there are those of us who see extreme danger in nonbelief, and we have a heart to warn our friends off from that danger. I don't think that I can put it any better than one of my favorite Atheists did:
I could only hope to be described as such by the Atheists that I come into contact with.
So who says they actually talked to anyone? Who can prove they actually talked to a god? it is my firm belief all of these religions around today, especially that one I provided a link to are just men out to con people out of money. That is all any of them are, IMHO.
Steve
I do not dispute the link that you provided. You are correct that there are many religions that exist to funnel money and power. Scientology comes to mind. There are also individuals and groups that use legitimate religion for their own greed for money and power. And there are those who act out of faith for the benefit of their fellow man. Some of them started on the narrow path and have been lured by money and power to change the message, and they mislead the flock that they have been blessed with. Such as these will be held to a higher standard when they face Judgement.
We, OTOH, have been made discerning enough to figure out who is whom, and, hopefully find and follow the narrow path, even if our leaders stray off of it.
Not exactly. Atheists don't dispute that religion exists...
But you're disputing (as you always have) that God exists. In your analogy, religion's corollary is the mistique and the rites that we perform around the act of sex, from foreplay to cuddling. God's corollary is the act of sex, itself, which many hold to be their god, anyway.
Abstinence is the choice not to have sex. I'm not sure that there's a word for choosing not to worship God.
Do you understand the difference between a threat and a warning?
Would you not warn your children who possess free will, not to choose to do things that may hurt them?
Can you accept the philosophical premise that evil is the antithesis of good?
That would be true if evil and damnation were disconnected from god. But as far as I understand it, god created everything. So he must have created hell and is also the one who established the criteria on who goes there and why.
Imagine that you told your kids to love you and follow your rules (voluntarily, of course) but if they didn't play by your rules you would punish them by throwing them into your basement that you yourself kitted out specifically to cruelly torment them, for eternity. What would that make you?
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-22-2015).]
As an Agnostic I would like to apologize for Yellowstones behaviour in this thread. Sadly while many people want to push "different" as a good thing to be, they don't want to accept anyone, or anything that makes them uncomfortable for whatever reasons.
Hopefully he can move past his issues someday and learn to be a happy person.
As an Agnostic I would like to apologize for Yellowstones behaviour in this thread. Sadly while many people want to push "different" as a good thing to be, they don't want to accept anyone, or anything that makes them uncomfortable for whatever reasons.
Hopefully he can move past his issues someday and learn to be a happy person.
Brad
Can you please not apologize for me as I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for and it's not your place to do it for me. You can say that you don't share my point of view and that's it.
I repeatedly said that I'm happy for the OP but I also think that how this thread's title is worded invites a discussion about the existence of (the Christian) god.
You don't get to draw conclusions on how happy I am in life (or not) based on my opinions on supernatural phenomena and religion. As if that was a valid measurement of overall happiness...
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-22-2015).]
You don't get to draw conclusions on how happy I am in life (or not) based on my opinions on supernatural phenomena and religion. :
According to you he does. You put your opinions out there, so you are inviting discussion, criticism and judgement of you as a person based on those opinions.
Originally posted by yellowstone: By modern human standards, the Christian god is (better: would be) a "person" of questionable morals and a hypocrite at best
Thats not saying a whole lot I suppose.
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Originally posted by yellowstone: You can say that you don't share my point of view and that's it.
According to you he does. You put your opinions out there, so you are inviting discussion, criticism and judgement of you as a person based on those opinions.
You can say that you don't share my point of view and that's it.
Good advice. You should follow it yourself, but instead you insist on being a religious zealot. Why?
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Originally posted by yellowstone:
You don't get to draw conclusions on how happy I am in life (or not) based on my opinions on supernatural phenomena and religion. As if that was a valid measurement of overall happiness...
However YOU are uniquely positioned in this world to make those same conclusions about others opinions and beliefs "on supernatural phenomena and religion", even including judging their intellectual ability and sanity?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-22-2015).]
Can you please not apologize for me as I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for and it's not your place to do it for me. You can say that you don't share my point of view and that's it.
I repeatedly said that I'm happy for the OP but I also think that how this thread's title is worded invites a discussion about the existence of (the Christian) god.
You don't get to draw conclusions on how happy I am in life (or not) based on my opinions on supernatural phenomena and religion. As if that was a valid measurement of overall happiness...
I'll stop apologizing for your actions, when you stop acting like you represent anyone who isn't a Christian.
Some Christians may want to look here. These scriptures tell me to speak up when I see something wrong in my fellow Christians as I have done here. I hope they will do the same for me. You cannot sit back and be the moderator all the time. At some point you need to make a stand. If you're only "lukewarm", you may be doing more harm than good.
REVELATION 3:15-16 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: ... This is the message we are supposed to spread. This message is called the Gospel. We are only required to tell it. You can listen or walk away. You can believe or you can think it's a joke. Our only duty is to tell it. ... As for actions, deeds, words, etc, yes, we should STRIVE to be good people and set good examples and try to let people see and know Jesus through us. Some will have more success at this than others. That's just the way people are built. .
I was never a fan of standing on a street corner and speaking, or the equivilent of it online. But every person has a different thing that may impact them at any given time. The setting is important to. An internet forum setting isnt the same as a room with a few people, or one on one, or to PM one on one. I think the way things are said can be sensitive to situations and timing. The cool thing is everyone is different.
1 Corinthians "13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails." -
But you are right we should build eachother up.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-22-2015).]
I'm interested to know how Christians...Let me take that back...Followers of American Evangelical version of Christianity view those who divorce.
I understand that American Evangelicals are like the far-left Liberal version of Christianity where they have excuses and exceptions to everything.
But I know God hates the person who does not love his wife and divorces. According to Malachi 2:16.
I know that most all divorcees, like drug addicts and drunks, tend to blame others or place the blame for their failures squarely on other people. But marriage, in the eyes of God, is a lifelong comments as one flesh and body.
It takes two to marriage, and two to divorce. but most divorcees will blame their divorce on the other without blaming themselves.
Funny that American Evangelicals also tend to be very vocal about "spirituality of marriage and protecting marriage" and they don't want gays to marry. But many American Evangelicals are themselves divorced and therefore broke the one flesh bond in the eyes of Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Wichita: But I know God hates the person who does not love his wife and divorces. According to Malachi 2:16.
You "know" this? (emphasis added)
Malachi 2:16: “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,”[a] says the Lord Almighty.
And you came up with this "knowlege" out of that verse how? Many Christians recommend praying for guidance before reading the Bible lest you read a passage incorrectly and make a complete ass of yourself. (paraphrased)
Malachi 2:16: “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,”[a] says the Lord Almighty.
And you came up with this "knowlege" out of that verse how? Many Christians recommend praying for guidance before reading the Bible lest you read a passage incorrectly and make a complete ass of yourself. (paraphrased)
Sigh!
I guess it depends on what version of the Bible, huh?
""I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith."
""I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith."
Ok, let's use your source. Where does it say he hates the "person?"
I know that most all divorcees, like drug addicts and drunks, tend to blame others or place the blame for their failures squarely on other people. But marriage, in the eyes of God, is a lifelong comments as one flesh and body.
It takes two to marriage, and two to divorce. but most divorcees will blame their divorce on the other without blaming themselves.
That's why part of recovery is taking reliability for what you've done. A man free from prison who can't say "what I did was wrong" and instead says things like "they had it out for me" or "I want hurting anybody" is very likely to end up back in prison.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 05-22-2015).]
When you kill everybody in the world by drowning them, with the exception of one family, then yes.
When you make people suffer, a little child that is cowering in fear and pain from illness and then kill that child, then yes.
When you throw billions of souls into a fire pit to burn in extreme pain for eternity, then yes.
When you allow millions of people to never ever ever even hear or learn about who Jesus is and how you can save your soul, then yes.
When you allow millions to slaughter each other, then yes.
So now that you have established the presence of an *all powerful God*, can we work on discussing what he REALLY *does* and what he *allows*......and perhaps WHY?
Originally posted by randye: So now that you have established the presence of an *all powerful God*, can we work on discussing what he REALLY *does* and what he *allows*......and perhaps WHY?
You can watch this but you should take nothing at mine or anybody elses word, you should study the bible if you're interested in what's in it, I actually strongly disagree with some of the things John MacArther has done.
You can watch this but you should take nothing at mine or anybody elses word, you should study the bible if you're interested in what's in it, I actually strongly disagree with some of the things John MacArther has done.
If you disagree with MacArthur's hyper-Calvinist views, then why would you post a sermon of his?
I would really like to know your own explanation, rather than relying on someone else to do the thinking and speaking on your behalf.
If you disagree with MacArthur's hyper-Calvinist views, then why would you post a sermon of his?
I would really like to know your own explanation, rather than relying on someone else to do the thinking and speaking on your behalf.
A good sermon is a good sermon. I posted the video because whether I explain it or John MacArthur explains it, man is fallible. You need to read it if you want to understand it without someone else's bias.
I also don't remember telling you what I don't like about John MacArthur.
If you disagree with MacArthur's hyper-Calvinist views, then why would you post a sermon of his?
I would really like to know your own explanation, rather than relying on someone else to do the thinking and speaking on your behalf.
WOW! I'm impressed! Seriously, I really am.
I'm also curious how someone who can identify Calvinist theology so easily also sees the concept of hell as strictly an ontological construction rather than a spiritual one?
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Originally posted by Wichita:
When you throw billions of souls into a fire pit to burn in extreme pain for eternity, then yes.
I still want to have that discussion about what God actively *does* as opposed to what he *allows*, but I had to comment on this.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-22-2015).]
I was never a fan of standing on a street corner and speaking, or the equivilent of it online. But every person has a different thing that may impact them at any given time. The setting is important to. An internet forum setting isnt the same as a room with a few people, or one on one, or to PM one on one. I think the way things are said can be sensitive to situations and timing. The cool thing is everyone is different.
1 Corinthians "13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails." -
But you are right we should build each other up.
Always preach the Gospel. Use words, if necessary.
I'm interested to know how Christians...Let me take that back...Followers of American Evangelical version of Christianity view those who divorce.
I understand that American Evangelicals are like the far-left Liberal version of Christianity where they have excuses and exceptions to everything.
But I know God hates the person who does not love his wife and divorces. According to Malachi 2:16.
I know that most all divorcees, like drug addicts and drunks, tend to blame others or place the blame for their failures squarely on other people. But marriage, in the eyes of God, is a lifelong comments as one flesh and body.
It takes two to marriage, and two to divorce. but most divorcees will blame their divorce on the other without blaming themselves.
Funny that American Evangelicals also tend to be very vocal about "spirituality of marriage and protecting marriage" and they don't want gays to marry. But many American Evangelicals are themselves divorced and therefore broke the one flesh bond in the eyes of Jesus Christ.
You broke into two different subjects toward the end, there.
Marriage is a lifelong commitment, and, by the Grace of God, it will be. Evangelical Christians, as you note, are just as human, in most instances, as anyone else. While I can't speak for anyone else, as the child of divorce, it is a personal thing to keep my commitment to God and my wife. She even once asked me, "What if you fall out of love with me?" I told her that she'd never know. That hasn't happened yet, and I don't expect it to, ever. She is a far better person than I am, so I am grateful that she is just as committed to me.
That said, I think that has been made fairly clear here that God's Grace covers all sins, divorce included.
As to homosexual marriage, the two words, as classically defined, are a juxtaposition. "Marriage" would need to be redefined from what it has meant for thousands of years. The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts got it wrong, and each state court that has ruled likewise has followed suit in the name of political correctness. If the government wants to bestow certain privileges to a civil union, than so be it - insurance and visitation rights are not discussed in the Bible, nor the Koran or any other such book, that I know of. Fact is, I think that Government needs to get out of Marriage altogether. Anyone, including heterosexuals, who cannot or do not want to get married in a legitimate Church or Synagogue should be bestowed a civil union by the state. A civil union can, therefore, be "no fault," as Marriage has become - it's simply a contract overseen by the State.
Marriage is and should be a ceremony and a celebration of faith, IMO, and should be considered by all parties to binding for life.
Seriously, I really am.
