Since the Christian god is pretty exclusive, that means he's right and everyone else (non-believers, believers in other faiths) is wrong.
Of course people in those groups will strongly disagree. Why shouldn't they?
So why not get out of his thread and start your own Religion Or Not thread? Why? Because without Christians, you have no argument and that is all you are interested in.
So why not get out of his thread and start your own Religion Or Not thread? Why? Because without Christians, you have no argument and that is all you are interested in.
Oh, I have arguments with Muslims, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Hindus.... all the same to me!
So it wasn't directed at me then? Ok, because I have not said anything about Patrick's posts being out of line. What is out of line is that this thread was posted correctly in TO/T and correctly identified as Religion yet it is like ringing the dinner bell for a pack of hungry dogs who seemingly are completely unable to control themselves when religious threads develop. They seem to have no conscious choice in the matter because they HAVE to post in them. They obviously cannot control themselves because they do it over and over and over, ad nauseam. Why? Why? Why? I have repeatedly asked that question. Still no answers on that one. I can only come to one conclusion and that is that they are unwitting agents of Satan. Yep, our fellow forum members must be caught in ol' Satan's web and they are being forced to do his work. What else can it be? Seriously, who in their right mind (or soul) spends so much time and effort saying something doesn't exist? It is simply insane if that is what they truly believe yet they continue to work so hard to disprove something that is a "fairytale" to them.
If there is a God and if there is a Satan, doesn't it seem likely that Satan's message to the world would be that God doesn't exist? Who else would try so hard to get that message out? Patrick? I seriously doubt it. There are greater forces out there and you will pick a side either actively or passively. You have been warned. Your destiny is in your hands and your heart. I sincerely hope you choose wisely.
I didn't. Two separate subjects there. It's not all about you, I'm afraid.
"Two separate subjects" in the same paragraph? Perhaps you should clarify how you express yourself. But then, I suppose this way you can just shrug it off (and slip in a dig) when called on it. Not very Christ like IMO.
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:
If there is a God and if there is a Satan, doesn't it seem likely that Satan's message to the world would be that God doesn't exist? Who else would try so hard to get that message out? Patrick? I seriously doubt it. There are greater forces out there and you will pick a side either actively or passively. You have been warned. Your destiny is in your hands and your heart. I sincerely hope you choose wisely.
Yes there was some sarcasm in there. But again, you cannot deny that these same people post the same things every chance they get for no reason other than to try to piss people off.
"Two separate subjects" in the same paragraph? Perhaps you should clarify how you express yourself. But then, I suppose this way you can just shrug it off (and slip in a dig) when called on it. Not very Christ like IMO.
2.5 brought up the subject of your posts and I took it as him telling me that I was coming down on you for no reason. First of all, I wasn't coming down on you. I was voicing my displeasure at the way these threads go south. Then I posted some more thoughts and said basically that it was more likely that Satan had an agenda than you. If that is an unfair comparison to Satan, please accept my apology. There was no dig and just because you think there was and you "called me on it" does not make it so.
I believe I made it very plain what I wished everyone.
quote
People have to make peace with JESUS and it is He that makes the peace for you with God. It is that experience that I wish for him, you, and everyone here
And yes, that wish is VERY Christ-like, IMO. If you could try to get the big picture of my posts it would be great, thanks.
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 05-21-2015).]
People have to make peace with JESUS and it is He that makes the peace for you with God. It is that experience that I wish for him, you, and everyone here.
You keep on wishing (and praying, if you must) because I don't HAVE to do any of this. I'm not at war with Jesus or your god any more than I'm at war with pixies.
... But again, you cannot deny that these same people post the same things every chance they get for no reason other than to try to piss people off.
Very true.
I am happy for the outcome that the OP and his family had. Very happy actually. Having some understanding of the legal system when it involves children and outright evil people.
Going to just bow out. Many of those that I enjoy conversing with here are Christian. Many are not. I feel no need to offend either, at any time. C'est la vie.
God set all things in motion. He can intervene if he chooses or let the world spin on while He watches. People have a free will. It is people who choose their own behavior and therefore they are responsible for their own actions and sins. There is only one person who walked on this Earth that led a perfect, sinless life. His name is Jesus Christ. No matter how hard we try, we CANNOT duplicate that feat. We CANNOT decide to stop sinning. If we could do it on our own, it would negate the whole purpose of Jesus. Therefore, we are ALL sinners! I am a sinner, you are, all Christians are, all members of other faiths are, all people with no religious affiliation are. Yes, we are all sinners! The only difference between Christians and other sinners is that we are sinners saved by grace. So, to look at a Christian and say he's not very Christ-like because of something he says or does, that you disagree with, really has no meaning. Christians are no better than anyone else. They have merely accepted a free gift. A free gift of God's perfect plan of salvation. It requires no physical action or deed. You just simply have to believe that God sent His Son, Jesus to pay for your sins. This is the message we are supposed to spread. This message is called the Gospel. We are only required to tell it. You can listen or walk away. You can believe or you can think it's a joke. Our only duty is to tell it.
As for actions, deeds, words, etc, yes, we should STRIVE to be good people and set good examples and try to let people see and know Jesus through us. Some will have more success at this than others. That's just the way people are built. We are going to stumble and fall and sometimes CRASH but even when others completely lose their faith in who we want to be as individuals, we should start over and try again. It is the trying again that is the component that determines if we are Christ-like.
If God has a plan for your life, then everything that happens to you is God's plan.
That includes unchristian things, like divorce, lying, cheating, stealing, gambling, and all sorts of sins.
It's god's will.
You forget man's free will. Do you actually believe that God plans sin for your life, or perhaps sin is by man's own free choice? Without free will wouldn't man be nothing more than a slave to an omnipotent God? Do you think you can make a choice?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-20-2015).]
Originally posted by randye: You forget man's free will. Do you actually believe that God plans sin for your life, or perhaps sin is by man's own free choice? Without free will wouldn't man be nothing more than a slave to an omnipotent God? Do you think you have a choice?
You really have to bend over backwards to make any sense of this...
If something good happens, it was Him and His Plan. If something bad happens, it was either free will, or the devil, or "his ways are unfathomable".
Being god is awesome: you get all of the praise and none of the blame even though you're supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and always benevolent! How twisted is that?
Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position.
But you are not, by definition, an "atheist". You freely admit that you actively and persistently attack others religious beliefs that do not agree with your own. Where is the *abstinence* in that?
But you are not, by definition, an "atheist". You freely admit that you actively and persistently attack others religious beliefs that do not agree with your own. Where is the *abstinence* in that?
That was an analogy...
quote
You are indeed a religious zealot.
I'll agree if you make that "anti-religious zealot" even though I dislike the bible reference contained in "zealot". What about "anti-religious ideologue"?
You really have to bend over backwards to make any sense of this...
If something good happens, it was Him and His Plan. If something bad happens, it was either free will, or the devil, or "his ways are unfathomable".
Being god is awesome: you get all of the praise and none of the blame even though you're supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and always benevolent! How twisted is that?
Now you put words in my mouth? Where did I make the distinction you just made? I never said if it was "good" it was God's will and if it was "bad" it was free will or the devil and you know it. ..and when did I ever say "unfathomable"???
It is also interesting that you presuppose that things just *happen*. It's not as though any of us make any choices in our lives is it?
Now you put words in my mouth? Where did I make the distinction you just made? I never said if it was "good" it was God's will and if it was "bad" it was free will or the devil and you know it. ..and when did I ever say "unfathomable"???
It is also interesting that you presuppose that things just *happen*. It's not as though any of us make any choices in our lives is it?
I didn't mean to imply that you in particular said this. But this is what I get from how Christians seem to explain good and bad things happening in the world.
But I'm interested in your view: why DO you think bad and evil things happen in a world in which a omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent creator exists?
Especially one that seems to interfere directly in human legal affairs as witnessed by the OP? But apparently chooses to stand aside and watch while the most heinous acts happen to innocent (and even righteous) people?
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-20-2015).]
I'll agree if you make that "anti-religious zealot" even though I dislike the bible reference contained in "zealot". What about "anti-religious ideologue"?
I'll agree if you make that "anti-religious zealot" even though I dislike the bible reference contained in "zealot". What about "anti-religious ideologue"?
Nope, sorry. I'm going to play by YOUR rules this time. You put yourself out in public and now you have to deal with the result. Isn't that the essence of how you put it? When you make it a habit to consistently attack other peoples religious beliefs in favor of your own, you are by definition a religious zealot . Perhaps you need a dictionary reference?
zealot
noun zeal·ot \ˈze-lət\
: a person who has very strong feelings about something (such as religion or politics) and who wants other people to have those feelings : a zealous person
Nope, sorry. I'm going to play by YOUR rules this time. You put yourself out in public and now you have to deal with the result. Isn't that the essence of how you put it? When you make it a habit to consistently attack other peoples religious beliefs in favor of your own, you are by definition a religious zealot . Perhaps you need a dictionary reference?
zealot
noun zeal·ot \ˈze-lət\
: a person who has very strong feelings about something (such as religion or politics) and who wants other people to have those feelings : a zealous person
Originally posted by randye: You forget man's free will. Do you actually believe that God plans sin for your life, or perhaps sin is by man's own free choice? Without free will wouldn't man be nothing more than a slave to an omnipotent God? Do you think you can make a choice?
So say a man of Christian faith, walks away from his wife; the consequences that goes with that and the series of event, is that not God's plan in your life?
Funny that when something good happens to your life or when something tragic happens, like a death of a love one, it is considered God's will.
But everything else is free will? According to Christian theology, God knows your future already and has predestine ones to follow him, before they were born.
2 Timothy 9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Ephesians 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Free Will is an illusion. Even Albert Eisenstein said this.
Humans act and make decisions based of determinism, not by free will.
Originally posted by Wichita: Funny that when something good happens to your life or when something tragic happens, like a death of a love one, it is considered God's will.
But everything else is free will? According to Christian theology, God knows your future already and has predestine ones to follow him, before they were born.
If there is a God as described in the Christian religions, He would be all knowing. Even if you have free will, He will know your choices before you do. Is it predestination if you know what will happen in advance even if you don't directly control it? And if that same God created everything, then didn't He create the conditions in which you would make your choices? Perhaps we do have free will with regards to things in our control but if the circumstances were set outside our control we're making choices influenced by that external control.
People do this all the time; manipulating circumstances to influence a person to make a certain choice.
I got just a couple of question for all you people who believe in whatever your preferred god or religion is,
Just who actually wrote those books, Koran's, bibles, torah and all the rest, was it god or was it some man who heard voices ? Why is it now hundreds of years if not thousands of them after the beginning of all these religions people take the word of someone who again not sure of the exact time but hundreds if not thousands of years later you are still believing what someone said who heard voices and attributes them to a god of their own making. Me I have already said what I think of people who hear voices and then say I spoke to god. WTF are you people sheep, because nowadays when someone says they talked to god or god told me to kill all those people we lock them up? Don't we !
Now me personally I could care less what you believe in, believe what ever you want, you have that right by the US constitution, but so does that other guy who decides to think for himself and say there is non now doesn't he. But even on here where we have every religion represented by some here, why is it so bad for someone to not believe in any god?
I noticed that after posting what I believe I got some negs, no problem I could care less what some bible thumper believes. Maybe you should all join that ministry I just saw in the news this morning who told his flock of believers that god needs to buy him a new 65 million dollar plane so he can spread his word of god all over the world. Pastor Creflo Dollar is he speaking the word of god or just another Jim and Tammy Fay ?
I got just a couple of question for all you people who believe in whatever your preferred god or religion is,
Just who actually wrote those books, Koran's, bibles, torah and all the rest, was it god or was it some man who heard voices ?
Steve
In all the religions I'm aware of, their holy books were written by men who were somehow inspired or directed by their deity. I don't know of any religion that mentions a deity physically writing down their own scripture. The one exception being the Ten Commandments, according to Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."
Would it matter? The reason I ask is, if God Himself wrote the books thousands of years ago how would you know? You'd still be asking "did God really write this, or did someone else?"
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-21-2015).]
Dennis just went through this horrific ordeal with CPS and his family. He gives thanks to God, and a few individuals want to jump in and trash his (and a good many others) beliefs. It's mind boggling just how much effort some individuals will put into trying prove that something doesn't exist that they don't believe exists in the first place. Make you wonder what they're really afraid of.
Family first Dennis. Enjoy them while you can now because you can never get back yesterday. Good luck and prayers your way.
In all the religions I'm aware of, their holy books were written by men who were somehow inspired or directed by their deity. I don't know of any religion that mentions a deity physically writing down their own scripture. The one exception being the Ten Commandments, according to Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."
Would it matter? The reason I ask is, if God Himself wrote the books thousands of years ago how would you know? You'd still be asking "did God really write this, or did someone else?"
So who says they actually talked to anyone? Who can prove they actually talked to a god? it is my firm belief all of these religions around today, especially that one I provided a link to are just men out to con people out of money. That is all any of them are, IMHO.
Originally posted by theBDub: My thoughts and feelings are just electrical bleeps in my head and my consciousness is no more than just a result of everything that has happened up until now. I choose to accept conventionally held ideas of self and morals because it makes life easier to do so. I know how I feel when I'm happy and I know how I feel when I'm not. I choose to live to be happy because it gives me the most pleasure, even if that pleasure is just a chemical reaction due to a response of choices I had no part of and random impulses that have no meaning. So yeah, they amount to nothing. But I'm happy. .
But you said choose to be happy, and chemical reactions due to a response of choices. Also that you choose to accept conventionally held ideas. That is interesting.
2 Timothy 9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Purposes can be accomplished many ways. What do you do when you are called, make a choice?
So say a man of Christian faith, walks away from his wife; the consequences that goes with that and the series of event, is that not God's plan in your life?
Funny that when something good happens to your life or when something tragic happens, like a death of a love one, it is considered God's will.
But everything else is free will? According to Christian theology, God knows your future already and has predestine ones to follow him, before they were born.
2 Timothy 9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Ephesians 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Free Will is an illusion. Even Albert Eisenstein said this.
Humans act and make decisions based of determinism, not by free will.
Would you *force* your own children to love you, or would you want them to *choose* to love you? Which is genuine?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-21-2015).]
But you said choose to be happy, and chemical reactions due to a response of choices. Also that you choose to accept conventionally held ideas. That is interesting.
I'm accepting that consciousness is "real", that happiness is "real", that my concept of self is "real"... because it's easier to do so. Otherwise I'm just living a completely pointless existence. Overall, I do believe our lives are meaningless, but I don't want to live like that every day. So I don't.
So who says they actually talked to anyone? Who can prove they actually talked to a god? it is my firm belief all of these religions around today, especially that one I provided a link to are just men out to con people out of money. That is all any of them are, IMHO.
Steve
Who can prove anything that happened in history? What level of proof is required? Think about it - what would it take for you to prove that you actually posted the post I quoted here? I didn't see you post it, and even if I did how would I prove my account is accurate? I can say I stood there and watched you, but years later that's just hearsay. Taken to the extreme, it's vitually impossible to "prove" anything. Documents and recordings can be faked.
capitalized :a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century a.d. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine
Yes, you still fit the definition.
The number of times and the manner in which you have lashed out against religion and people of faith on this forum renders the word *fanatical* obvious, so let's move along to the next word;
Sect
"A sect is a subgroup of a religious, political or philosophical belief system, usually an offshoot of a larger religious group. Although in past it was mostly used to refer to religious groups, it has since expanded and in modern culture can refer to any organization that breaks away from a larger one to follow a different set of rules and principles. The term is occasionally used in a malicious way to suggest the broken-off group follows a more negative path than the original. The historical usage of the term sect in Christendom has had pejorative connotations, referring to a group or movement with heretical beliefs or practices that deviate from those of groups considered orthodox."
Certainly that definition is predominately *religious* in nature and so is the focus and direction of your attacks. They clearly aren't political. That is inescapable. No matter how much you might want to distance yourself from *religion*, your constant voluntary involvement in attacking the religious beliefs of others that are contrary to your own makes YOU a RELIGIOUS ZEALOT.
As I said before, you either cannot, or refuse to, see that.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-21-2015).]
I didn't mean to imply that you in particular said this. But this is what I get from how Christians seem to explain good and bad things happening in the world.
But I'm interested in your view: why DO you think bad and evil things happen in a world in which a omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent creator exists?
Especially one that seems to interfere directly in human legal affairs as witnessed by the OP? But apparently chooses to stand aside and watch while the most heinous acts happen to innocent (and even righteous) people?
Lets start with some foundational philosophical questions first, if that's ok with you.
Without debating where they may come from right now, it seems that we may agree on the basic concept of *good* and *evil* in the world?
Would you further agree that people can also choose to do *good* or choose to do *evil* ?
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-21-2015).]
