quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I think the appropriate question should be "Why does her FATHER believe that?" If we can answer that, we're getting closer to the crux of the problem.

Probably because they campaigned hard against her and the popular media has portayed them as a bunch of hate mongering racist rednecks.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I think the appropriate question should be "Why does her FATHER believe that?"

How about "DOES he really believe that?". His daughter has just been shot in the head. You think he must might be a LITTLE emotional at this time?

Please don't let this be the impetus for a call for censorship. We have already voluntarily forfeited far too many of our rights.

Open political discourse is absolutely essential to the preservation of our society. If someone truly advocates assassination, I want him to be able to say it out loud, in front of everyone. We need to know about it.

I don't mean to in any way diminish the tragedy but, wackos kill people, car crashes kill people, lightning kills people. We will never be completely safe. The benefits of freedom far outweigh the alternative.

Please, never forget the inspired words of our founding fathers:
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” -Benjamin Franklin

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: No, that isn't my opinion. It is, however, drawing a distinction between the degree of influence held by popular culture and that held by our elected officials. While I don't disagree that the media has an influence of a sort, I wouldn't send Oprah to Washington to represent my interests. I would add, however, that there are those in the media who have positioned themselves as spokespersons for a specific political ideology and that's where the lines get quite blurred, in my opinion.

There is a difference between the front page and editorial page, or at least there use to be. The editorialists on FOX are just that, yet they are accused of being biased news reporters. .

But the story I posted earlier by Reuters illustrates how main stream media is just as guilty of sensationalizing a ho-hum story. The video clips of the President's speech didn't match the accompanying comments by Reuters at all. The comments say the President is attacking, marshaling and targeting. One would expect his speech to be given with him wearing combat gear and holding a weapon.

quote Originally posted by DRA: This whole idea of looking for an answer or someone to blame is getting to me, this story is about a crazy guy who hurt a lot of innocent people and all this political posturing and finger pointing is really sad.

I'm not attempting to imply that a symbolic reduction in the adversarial rhetoric present in our politics is the "answer," that it's some manner of "magic panacea" that will address the distinct (and, IMHO, totally counter-productive from a societal level) polarization occurring occurring within our politics at present. If the answer to that particular issue was that simplistic, I would like to believe those "thinking individuals" among us would've attempted to try it by now. However, dialing back the "warfare" rhetoric a bit couldn't possibly hurt.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I am, however, addressing the general atmosphere of vitriol that's inherent in our political process at present.

When Jefferson was running for president one newspaper said that if he is elected your daughters will be raped in the streets.
This vitriol has been going on for ever.
Just that now the "why can't we all get along mentality" seems to have taken over.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: Just that now the "why can't we all get along mentality" seems to have taken over.

Is there a reason why we as a coherent society shouldn't, at the very least, aspire to that?

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I'm not attempting to imply that a symbolic reduction in the adversarial rhetoric present in our politics is the "answer," that it's some manner of "magic panacea" that will address the distinct (and, IMHO, totally counter-productive from a societal level) polarization occurring occurring within our politics at present. If the answer to that particular issue was that simplistic, I would like to believe those "thinking individuals" among us would've attempted to try it by now. However, dialing back the "warfare" rhetoric a bit couldn't possibly hurt.

My comment was not directed at you, more of a generalization of the direction the thread has taken.

I just don't see where this incident has anything to do with politics other than the fact that the person shot was a politician. It could very well have been anyone, the guy was a kook. It would be like talking about the content and actions of the music industry after John Lennon was shot, there is no logic, the person was whacko.

quote Originally posted by spark1: There is a difference between the front page and editorial page, or at least there use to be......

....and you are obviously intelligent or coherent enough to recognize that. Unfortunately, there are those among us that are not so equipped.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: When Jefferson was running for president one newspaper said that if he is elected your daughters will be raped in the streets. This vitriol has been going on for ever. Just that now the "why can't we all get along mentality" seems to have taken over.

http://www.toptenz.net/top-...thomas-jefferson.php

Federalist opponents of Thomas Jefferson spread rumors that he was an “infidel” during his first presidential election. The idea of Jefferson as a non-religious heathen made incredible waves in early America. These accusations were so widely believed that New England families hid their Bibles at the bottom of their wells because they believed that he would have them confiscated. Even Timothy Dwight, the president of Yale College, stated that if Jefferson was elected, it would result in, “our wives and daughters the victims of legal prostitution; soberly dishonored; speciously polluted.” The Connecticut Courant wrote that if he was elected, “There is scarcely a possibility that we shall escape a Civil War. Murder, robbery, rape, adultery, and incest will be openly taught and practiced.”

Just for MadCurl.. it's the Daily Kos's fault.

http://hillbuzz.files.wordp...08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

quote Originally posted by DRA: My comment was not directed at you, more of a generalization of the direction the thread has taken. I just don't see where this incident has anything to do with politics other than the fact that the person shot was a politician. It could very well have been anyone, the guy was a kook. It would be like talking about the content and actions of the music industry after John Lennon was shot, there is no logic, the person was whacko.

Point taken....and appreciated.

I don't know if I would summarily dismiss his actions as simply those of a deranged individual without the possible impact of his underlying ideological views. On an extremely simplistic level, if his goal was merely to shoot a number of "John or Jane Does," he could've simply walked into the nearest Walmart and started shooting everyone in the checkout line. For whatever reason he formulated in his mind (such as it appears to be) he had a reason for targeting those specific people for his attack. I think time and further inquiry will reveal just what, in particular, that twisted reasoning consists of.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Point taken....and appreciated. I don't know if I would summarily dismiss his actions as simply those of a deranged individual without the possible impact of his underlying ideological views. On an extremely simplistic level, if his goal was merely to shoot a number of "John or Jane Does," he could've simply walked into the nearest Walmart and started shooting everyone in the checkout line. For whatever reason he formulated in his mind (such as it appears to be) he had a reason for targeting those specific people for his attack. I think time and further inquiry will reveal just what, in particular, that twisted reasoning consists of.

But his idealogy, no matter what it may be, is effected by his mentl status. He shot someone who would get him the most noteriety and attention. In this he has succeeded.

quote Originally posted by DRA: But his ideology, no matter what it may be, is effected by his mental status. He shot someone who would get him the most notoriety and attention. In this he has succeeded.

On that point, we certainly agree.

I find it interesting how the media is making this into another left vs. right issue, then you also have all the anti-gunners flocking to it too. The media doesn't report the news anymore, they just twist it and spin to suit their agenda. I was watching some woman reporter talking about the gun the shooter used. It was obvious she knew nothing about guns and it was obvious she was against them.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I find it interesting how the media is making this into another left vs. right issue, then you also have all the anti-gunners flocking to it too. The media doesn't report the news anymore, they just twist it and spin to suit their agenda. I was watching some woman reporter talking about the gun the shooter used. It was obvious she knew nothing about guns and it was obvious she was against them.

Meanwhile our Government promises Pakistan another 3 billion dollars in assistance for this year and continues to spend money we don't have.
We are encouraged to argue amongst one another while the hired help walks off with everything in the house including the kitchen sink. Pretty soon the people are gonna look around and wonder what the hell just happened!

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Is there a reason why we as a coherent society shouldn't, at the very least, aspire to that?

There will have to be an overwhelming reason to do that. We will have to meet in the middle, but who's middle.
Most who claim to be in the middle ain't even close in their assumption.
I won't claim to know where the middle is, other that it is way to the left where I sit, how far who knows.
It may be nothing short of a revolution that makes people from both sides get off of their soap boxes.

I hesitate to post this. The link is a news article regarding the response by the Westboro Baptist Church (you know, the ones that picket soldiers funerals). It's so horrendous, I won't quote it here - read at the risk of your blood pressure.

http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/15660

These people are truly disturbed, but I guess the first amendment allows them to continue...

quote Originally posted by partfiero: There will have to be an overwhelming reason to do that. We will have to meet in the middle, but who's middle. Most who claim to be in the middle ain't even close in their assumption. I won't claim to know where the middle is, other that it is way to the left where I sit, how far who knows. It may be nothing short of a revolution that makes people from both sides get off of their soap boxes.

I've always been told that a sure sign of a successful negotiation is when both sides walk out of the room pissed because neither side got EVERYTHING they wanted.

Sounds like the middle to me.

quote Originally posted by DRA: This whole idea of looking for an answer or someone to blame is getting to me, this story is about a crazy guy who hurt a lot of innocent people and all this political posteuring and finger pointing is really sad.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I've always been told that a sure sign of a successful negotiation is when both sides walk out of the room pissed because neither side got EVERYTHING they wanted. Sounds like the middle to me.

And that is a load of crap if, the two sides are so idealogically apart that the "middle ground" only causes more friction. I've accepted the fact that the left is so far left that no compromise is acceptable because, the middle ground is still way off to the left of center.

But, this shooter is simply a sick SOB that needs to be executed after a fair trial and the purchase of a used rope.

Ron

of the couple of dozen posters in this thread, with 3 or maybe 4 exceptions, this is for you:

you suck. yes, YOU. people are dead and you're arguing politics?!!? you disgust me. you are worthless sacks of excrement made up to look like human beings. it wouldn't be so bad if your bags didn't leak raw sewage everywhere, but that trail of noisome sludge follows you everywhere you go.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 01-09-2011).]

Debating the possible motivation of this killer is human nature. Looking for cause/blame. I honestly doubt there is a real political motive behind this act. Based on limited information, it appears pretty clear he is border line mentally off balance and anything could have set him off. He obviously had social and psyphological issues. There are folks out there like that. A few years ago, some dude took his gun(s) on a campus in West Virginia, another trajedy but it did not have the political fallout of shooting a Congresswoman and her aides/supporters. Not too long ago there was a mass shooting and murder at Ft. Hood, TX, that was also political in nature, so why is this different? Yes, political attitudes are emotionally debated but, that doesn't mean they suck. I don't agree with most of the opinions posted here but, everyone has the right to state theirs.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-09-2011).]

Do they--have that unfettered right to say anything they wish? If you are speaking of constitutional rights, those only prevent the govt from passing any law or statute that infringes upon the right of free speech or free press.

Otherwise, the concepts of good taste, tact, common decency, and decorum come into play--or used to.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-09-2011).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: You're full of s***, curl. You REALLY believe she meant people should shoot each other over politics? Go ahead, keep digging yourself deeper in that hole.

Do you think the "cross-hairs are a friendly gestures? Dude, seriously, the only people digging a very, very large hole are you and the O/T political know-it-alls. The mere fact the Gabrielle Giffords mentioned Palin senseless regard for posting "cross hairs" should be enough to at least prick your own conscious. Therefore you need a bigger hole to fall into.


Notice her own words....

quote Originally posted byMSNBC television network: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/...ooting_congresswoman In an interview last year with the MSNBC television network, Giffords cited a map of electoral targets put out by former Alaska Republican Governor and prominent conservative Sarah Palin, each one marked by the crosshairs of a rifle sight. "When people do that, they've got to realize that there's consequences to that action," Giffords told MSNBC.

If Rep. Gabrielle Gifford survives (and I hope she does) I wonder what her first words would be if somebody asks here about Palin’s “cross-hairs”? Anyone stupid enough to use "cross hairs" on a political office, person, or organization is asking for trouble. Thank goodness the sheriff had enough conviction to mention the rhetoric, hate, and bigotry by those in the media, radio, and other venues. Prick your consciousness and cause you to wonder. However, you'd rather defend the actions of Palin and attack anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Go ahead fierobear, "reload."

The reports out are saying that the shooter is part of a White Supremacy and anti-Semitic group. These groups tend to support the Democratic Party. Since Gifford was on the leftist Daily Kos's hit list to remove from the primaries since she wasn't "leftist enough", that makes you wonder.

Hey! Since people are making a spin of it.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Do they--have that unfettered right to say anything they wish? If you are speaking of constitutional rights, those only prevent the govt from passing any law or statute that infringes upon the right of free speech or free press. Otherwise, the concepts of good taste, tact, common decency, and decorum come into play--or used to.

Just as much as the Phelps Klan. We all make decisions, statements and actions that we later regret. We bear the responsibility for those. But yes, taste, tact and common decency/decorum should come into play. We each have to determine where that line is and decide if it's worth crossing. There is always accountability for what we do.

Ron

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Thank goodness the sheriff had enough conviction to mention the rhetoric, hate, and bigotry by those in the media, radio, and other venues.

The sheriff is a law enforcement officer. It is not within his purview to express general opinions, particularly those which disparage the character of those who he is sworn to protect. He has been under fire in the past for refusing to discharge his duties, and is now being soundly slain in the media for again failing to properly perform his job. Pay attention!

edit: Hey, I said "under fire" and "slain", am I now also guilty of inciting violence? No! That is the way English is spoken. Rational people understand how a metaphor is used.

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-09-2011).]

quote Originally posted by williegoat: The sheriff is a law enforcement officer. It is not within his purview to express general opinions, particularly those which disparage the character of those who he is sworn to protect. He has been under fire in the past for refusing to discharge his duties, and is now being soundly slain in the media for again failing to properly perform his job. Pay attention!

Oh please. What names did he use?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Oh please. What names did he use?

quote Originally spoken by Sheriff Dupnik: ....unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry

quote Originally posted by williegoat: Pay attention!

quote Originally posted by madcurl: If Rep. Gabrielle Gifford survives (and I hope she does) I wonder what her first words would be if somebody asks here about Palin’s “cross-hairs”? Anyone stupid enough to use "cross hairs" on a political office, person, or organization is asking for trouble. Thank goodness the sheriff had enough conviction to mention the rhetoric, hate, and bigotry by those in the media, radio, and other venues. Prick your consciousness and cause you to wonder. However, you'd rather defend the actions of Palin and attack anyone who doesn't agree with you. Go ahead fierobear, "reload."

From the thing you quoted: "map of electoral targets"

Electoral targets, as in electoral districts. Not people. See if you can grasp that concept.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: From the thing you quoted: "map of electoral targets" Electoral targets, as in electoral districts. Not people. See if you can grasp that concept.

So, are you saying congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords grasped the wrong concept too? Classic O/T rhetoric.

..The shooter is definitely a left wing nut job,his views comming from the communist and democratic papers found in his home,this guy hates the Tea party..
..All the left wing democrats & other communist are trying to blame the tea party and republicans as is always the democrats mind set..Screw them
.. the cross hair thing comes from all the images of Bush and Cheney shown in the cross hairs and(My fave) with a noose around thier necks,I became more radical seeing all this Dem/commie crap ,and reading the commies & democrats(samo/samo) wishing for a sharp shooting marksman with the Bush Cheney team in the crosshairs,
,,I am surprised no one took out after DODD ,RANGEL,FRANKS or any of the other democrats who destroyed our banking system,,only the complete protection & cover up of these criminals by our major Media keeps them out of Prison which FRANK ,would make the best of..(send vasiline or KY).
One more nail the godless commies drive into the coffin of the greatest country the world has ever known
Union sympathies are finally effecting our police ,give us more of everything!!
SCREW ALL DEMOCRATS !!

quote Originally posted by lurker: yes, YOU. people are dead and you're arguing politics?!!?

(Sigh.) Sad but true ... and oh, so predictable. I'm ashamed that I even posted in this thread. Shame on you all!

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-10-2011).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Isn't Joe Arpaio Sheriff in Arizona?

You think there is only one?

..This is all comming from the HATE & anti americanism generated by the democrats,yippies,S.D.S leftist & commies in the 60,s

..HOW QUICKLY WE FORGET EVEN RECENT HISTORY..

quote Originally posted by Khw: You think there is only one?

Arizona Sheriff's (15) are political animals, elected by county voters.

Phoenix (Maricopa County) and Tucson (Pima County) are polar opposites politically.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 01-10-2011).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: So, are you saying congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords grasped the wrong concept too? Classic O/T rhetoric.

No, anyone who thinks that Palin's targets meant targeting PEOPLE is either an idiot or a partisan idealogue.