I thought I would post the pictures JScott and I took of fitting my windows to JScotts chop top. we were able to confirm what I had been saying for years. Just a shame I could not get the opportunity to do this a long time ago. The first ones are the ones JScott took himself. he posted them here https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/000111-8.html#p284
The rest were taken by someone else while I hold them in place.



Looks great to me but will let everyone decide for themself.

So do they fit and are you guys going to install them on that archie choptop?

show me the glass installed in the door, and what door mods are necessary to to make it seal. i don't think you'll be able to get it to seal without major door mods. i'm getting in on archies group buy for glass. i think he knows his chop better than anyone else.

Nothing wrong with buying archie windows. For the record archie has always been nice to me despite my windows so no need to start a fight that isn't there. I look forward to seeing the windows installed. I know Mike and I have both shown pictures of what it takes
To install these windows.

It looks good just holding it there.........now install it and let jscott say he's happy with the fit. When that happens I will eat my words and offer my apologies for doubting you. I still wouldn't buy a set from you at half the price.

i'm not starting any fight. i just want to see the windows installed. my opinion[my opinion only]is there isn't enough curve to make them seal installed in the door without mods to the door/ track[again my opinion]. show me they fit without too much trouble . i have no beef with anyone. my chop isn't even an archie chop, but i think it's similar enough to archies that my car would need more curve than these windows have. i just think[again only my opinion]i'll have an easier time making archies window fit my car. josh i'd love to see your car. if these work in your car that's great! i drive through watertown frequently and hope i can arrange to stop in and show you mine when it's further along[far from finished now]. i'm definitely not looking for any fight so PLEASE don't take it that way!

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88blackchopv8

It's all good with me. I'm still trying to get my car running too but I would be more than happy to show you what I got so far.

Guess it's my turn to post?

quote Originally posted by DL10: I still wouldn't buy a set from you at half the price.

av8, the chop those windows were made for was done "similar enough" to archie's way.

SO is JScott going to install the windows? I like looking at his car anyway so I'd like to see them installed so I know that I can have glass in a chop top. Took me 2 hours to read the thread in the trash. I'm not a slow reader just 8 pages.

quote Originally posted by troyboy: Jscott that's great news, you now have glass windows installed in your choptop. Any pics with the doors closed? f355 with jscotts posted pics and endorsement I will eat my words like a man. If jscott says they fit perfectly I know they must.

quote Originally posted by FierociousGT: Guess it's my turn to post?

Just like you have your opinion of Archie and you wouldn't want him working on your car again I have my opinion of Mike and I wouldn't let him touch my car or I wouldn't buy anything from him. Unlike you though I don't go around on every Internet forum bashing him. But I still have a right to my opinion. I also have a similar opinion of you.......but you don't see me telling everyone that I can what it is...... or why I feel that way.

[This message has been edited by DL10 (edited 04-29-2009).]

ok stu show me the windows installed, show me how well they seal, and show me what mods you had to do to the door/track to make them work. i have no problem with mike or anyone else, i just want to see them installed. if they work it should be no problem to have them installed. alot of people have said that mike is a good guy to deal with and i have no reason to doubt this, i personally haven't dealt with him so i have nothing to say about that one way or another. for my car [my opinion only] i think i need more curve in the window. if these work for you then that's great. working with my car i have determined my chop will require the window to lean in quite a bit more to seal, and i don't want to do major mods to my door/track to make it work. install it and prove me wrong. again i'm not looking for a fight, i want glass for my chop too. i could care less where it comes from as long as it works. in my opinion archies glass will fit my car better thus making me happy. if this glass works in your car and makes you happy then that's all that's important. just show me it installed

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88blackchopv8

quote Originally posted by DL10: Just like you have your opinion of Archie and you wouldn't want him working on your car again I have my opinion of Mike and I wouldn't let him touch my car or I wouldn't buy anything from him. Unlike you though I don't go around on every Internet forum bashing him. But I still have a right to my opinion. I also have a similar opinion of you.......but you don't see me telling everyone that I can what it is...... or why I feel that way.

So Dave are you saying that you have had a bad expriance with Mike's service or product and this is why you wouldn't give him your hard earned money? No, then our situations are NOT the same. No one cares if you buy or not from Mike, just like no one care if I buy or not archies's glass windows. Seems like you are trying to start a flame on Mike's thread and we all know why.


David

[This message has been edited by FierociousGT (edited 04-29-2009).]

quote Originally posted by FierociousGT: . Seems like you are trying to start a flame on Mike's thread and we all know why. David

No that's seems to be what you are trying to do............and you don't know swat about why I have my opinion.

edited at 8:45 AM....before any more post made to this thread.

[This message has been edited by DL10 (edited 04-29-2009).]

quote Originally posted by F355spider: JScott and I took all the bull out of my windows not fitting Archie chops last weekend. His pictures prove what I have said for years. I just hope all the people here that ran this in the trash will man up and admit they were wrong.

OK, so does that mean that when I, once again, prove you wrong that you'll man up and admit you were wrong?

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: OK, so does that mean that when I, once again, prove you wrong that you'll man up and admit you were wrong? Archie

Mike that a FAIR suggestion if it goes both way.

I was 5 minutes to late of seeing the windows being fitted but did get out in enough time to hear Jscott saying--they fit to a gnat's azz. Of course they didn't get fitted all the way into the door as we where at a show and it was 9 pm at night. But I am willing to bet that the windows will fit with very little door modifications needing to be made. The offer was made to JScott by Mike to have the windows put in for free and was even offered a place to stay since he will be away from home. Now I don't know what else can be offered to make this possible so it is up to the owner or another shop owner.


I can say that no matter how the windows fit that they will fit better than the plastic junk that are in the car now. The gap I saw between the seal and window on JScott's car is disturbing. But like the other body work flaws that I saw in the car, I am sure it is just from the Texas heat.


No offense to Jscott or his car as I see him as a friend and nlook forward to seeing him and the car at more local shows.

i don't get all this mudslinging archies way. he didn't call out anyones work, he just says the glass won't fit his chop. if these windows fit show them installed, show how they seal, and show the door/track mods you made to make them fit. pretty simple. until they're installed in an archie chop what's the point? if this glass works for you and you're happy then thats great! i'll stick with archies glass due to the curve requirements for my car.

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88blackchopv8

The pictures speak for themselves. Let's try and stick to the facts as presented....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Having said that...The area where Mike's windows are different from Archie's template is the rear attach point. Mike's windows have a constant curve there where Archie's template has a sharp curve there to fit with the stock tracks.

In a stock Fiero, the adjustment to the window tracks to compensate do interfere with the door handle and changes have to be made to the handle. My car doesn't have door handles and it presumably would be easier to make these adjustments.

The area above the door fits about as well as a stock window. All the curves that I saw fit the curves of the car.

Having said that, I told Mike I would prefer to buy Archie's windows that presumably would fit without ANY adjustments to the window tracks.

If for some reason that is not possible, I would take the windows that are already in my possession and have them installed. As Stephen points out either option would be better than the lexan.

And no my car isn't perfect, and it has seen too many body shops to say who did what to it.

Well I have done enough to know they will work And yes if I do not get them to fit in an Archie chop I will say they will not fit and post it. I am not like some here try to make me out to be. But please do not sling mud my way if I do not believe anything that comes out of Archie’s mouth. Also I told JScott to buy Archie’s windows and use mine for backups because I know they are friends and JScott does business with him. To speak the truth when another person was trying to get JScott to let me put them in I said no he wants to deal with Archie. I also said to him if he decides to use mine he could stay here while I install them and I also told him it was free and if he did not like them I would buy them back from him. So much gets left out it is crazy. I have shown what has to be done over and over and would love to install a set to prove the facts. I have never ever tried to make them out to be more than they are and have scared a few people away from buying them because I tell them the truth and do not sugar coat it. The one fact is they look good in the window opening and fit the seals. Archie said the angles are all off and the curve was not right I even think he tried to pass them off as being flat before. These pictures prove that to not be the truth.
I also am working with my glass company on a second version I hope they will be out soon but I am getting a couple of test windows first I never sell anything until I have tested it first. If these work out they will be more user friendly for the non experienced and I am trying to get something to work for a two-inch chop.
I will be happy to put the windows in Jscotts car if he wants me to and like I said before if he wants to buy Archie’s windows that Rodney had the templates made and gave to him to sell that is great and one day someone with an Archie chop will take me up on my offer and when I install them; then and only then will we know for a fact.
One more thing then I will stop. Before you start thinking the ones that were give to Archie to sell will be perfect or work out perfect get them in a car first. All window seals are not the same. The way the window will seal will depend on the condition of the seals. I did notice Jscotts are not the best I have seen in a car so I think Archie will agree with even me on this if your seals leak with factory glass they will more than likely leak with my glass or Archie’s when he gets them but until they are in who knows.

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: ok stu show me the windows installed, show me how well they seal, and show me what mods you had to do to the door/track to make them work. i have no problem with mike or anyone else, i just want to see them installed. if they work it should be no problem to have them installed. alot of people have said that mike is a good guy to deal with and i have no reason to doubt this, i personally haven't dealt with him so i have nothing to say about that one way or another. for my car [my opinion only] i think i need more curve in the window. if these work for you then that's great. working with my car i have determined my chop will require the window to lean in quite a bit more to seal, and i don't want to do major mods to my door/track to make it work. install it and prove me wrong. again i'm not looking for a fight, i want glass for my chop too. i could care less where it comes from as long as it works. in my opinion archies glass will fit my car better thus making me happy. if this glass works in your car and makes you happy then that's all that's important. just show me it installed

The door track is not modified only the brackets have new holes drilled in them and the tracks are moved out and at the very top of the track I round the corner. You can unbolt my windows move the tracks back for stock ones and put them back in if you were able.
If the new windows I have coming work out this will not need to be done but will use a bracket to bolt in to the track and then clamp to the window. Then any bend can be made to the bracket to fit more doors. Like I said I want to try a two inch chop also so if I can have one window that will do both that saves everyone money.

Anybody can hold a window up against a rubber seal that has at least 3/8" of give to it & then claim it fits to a Gnat's aas.

Way back when, these windows were advertized as being a perfect fit to my chops. That's when I got involved because it was an untrue statement. Mike's original car wasn't even a 3" chop like all mine are & his posted method of choping was not the same as what I was doing. So there was no way they could be a perfect fit to one of my cars.

Anyone who wants to go back & read the previous threads can see that I never got involved until statements were made that could mislead & eventually hurt some of my customers. So I spoke up. I was greeted by name calling & insults like the ones you've seen so far in this thread.

In several of the pics that were posted of the window being held up in the opening, you can see the mounting area of the window & you can see that's it's pointing out towards the door beam. (see X below)



This happens because his window has less curve than a stock Fiero window. Yes Mike, I know you have at least one stock Fiero window around there. compare the curve by just laying one window on top of the other & you'll see that your window is flatter than a stock window. You can show us some pictures of that if you'd like.

I took a similar picture with one of my chops & windows today & you can see that the window mounting area is almost vertical. If you look at the Fiero door mounting hardware inside the door, you can see that it is almost vertical up & down.



Notice how the mounting area of the window points towards the door striker, instead of pointing outboard of the striker.

When you're chopping a top by 3" & you're not widening the roof, the window has to have MORE CURVE to be able to meet up with the seal surface at the top. This is not rocket science & is the reason that I knew from the get go that Mikes windows wouldn't fit my chops as advertized.

So Mike says that the proof is in the mounting..... ok, well that's been done already.

Back in Oct. 2006 joshua riedl came over to my shop & him & I installed one of Mikes windows into one of my cars. The details of that visit are in this thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum8/HTML/000111.html

When those windows were installed in my car they looked like this.....











Yes, because the window is flatter than a stock window, it doesn't go in far enough towards the seal when it's rolled up.

Now, even though the windows were originally advertised as "fitting to a Gnat's a.." it was later revealed that with some mods to the door handle, door beam & window rails inside the door that they could be made to fit.

The problem with that is that the window is too flat. When you tilt the window in meet the seal at the top, then the coutour of the window doesn't match to the contour of the 1/4 window. Kinda like this.....



I would think that with the flat window tight up against parts of the curved seal, it would cause the window to bind & not roll up without greasing it up or opening the door.

What you would like to see is a properly curved window that matches up to the 1/4 window.



Anyone who wants to check the authenticity of my statements can check out this thread

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-1-054790.html

& the thread that was posted earlier. The record of what was said & the truth about what was done is in those threads. Don't let others tell you what was in them, read them for yourself.

Now it's time for the Texas 5 to insult me & call me names.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 04-30-2009).]

Archie, without appearing to take sides, (I'm trying to stay neutral in this)...but let me say I agree that most of what you say is true.

quote it was later revealed that with some mods to the door handle, door beam & window rails inside the door that they could be made to fit.

This is 100% true. Mike's windows when put in an Archie chop with no mods will look exactly the way you showed.

quote The problem with that is that the window is too flat.

This is true, but has to be qualified. The stock Fiero window and the lexan windows, and the Rodney Booth template ALL have a bend that occurs below the dew wipe line such that the mounting surface is nearly vertical in the door and more inboard. All 100% true.

Mike's windows require that the mounting surface be moved outward and the door handle modified, (if you have door handles) All true.

Have these mods been made on an Archie chop top and verified to work? No.

Mike wants to do it to mine, graciously offered to do it for free. I have 100% confidence he believes that he can do it.

However, I am not so sure I want my car to be the pathfinder. I have had too many body shops/ painters/ whatever promise things and not deliver. I believe Mike is a trustworthy guy and he is good at what he does, but I'm not 100% sure that I want to be the first.

Maybe an Archie chop is just different enough from Mike's chop that he runs out of room in the door, maybe something else becomes the limiting factor...it's the fear of the unknown that stops me from taking that path.

I have committed to being in the window group buy for chop top owners and I intend to uphold that commitment.

I would rather not make modifications to my window mounting points, even though I believe Mike when he says the modifications are modest and easily achievable. Even easier on my car because there are no door handles to get in the way.

quote When you tilt the window in meet the seal at the top, then the coutour of the window doesn't match to the contour of the 1/4 window. Kinda like this.....

Archie, this is where I have to disagree. I didn't see this at all. The contour of Mike's window matched the contour of my quarter window better than the lexan windows I have presently installed. Maybe my lexan windows were distorted in the Texas heat. They were removed from the car for over a year, they might have been damaged, I don't know, but they are not fitting as well as they could. My seals are not in the best condition and there is very little "squeeze" in them. Better seals might improve the fit of either window.

But the bottom line is that IF, (and only if) Mike's windows could be mounted in the door in such a way that they closed the way he was holding them (with moderate pressure just to hold the glass up to the seals), in my opinion, Mike's windows would provide an acceptable seal better than my lexan windows presently do.

There is no way to know for sure without actually doing it.

But on the other hand, I believe the Archie windows would have the same better fit with NO modifications. That's why they are my first choice.

my $0.02

Thats the problem you will get with lexan. back when i did sign work most sign faces you put up now are made out of lexan. They do distort in high heat and signs are up high and see the sun all day. The only advantage to using lexan is you can use a planer on it to get it to shpe right but also in the great state of PA lexan windows are illegal because its a lot harder to brake than traditional glass(hence the reason they use them fro sign faces incase some punk kid throws a rock at it). i respect both sides on the chop top department archie does very nice work but you guys do also you both have diffrent ways of doing it. tell you the truth if i got a chop top done whoever i went to id expect them to do what they do with the windows its like putting a GM part onto a ford engine its not going to fit right.

just my .02 cents no fighting words or flaming intended i respect both sides on this topic and wish you bot the best of luck in both your businesses.

Archie, once again you start the trashing. I just laid the chop top window on top of the OEM Fiero window and took a picture. the chop window has a little more curve right in the middle I circled the rear tab area that is not bent as much as the original and is why the window tracks are moved out. to get that moved were it needed to be would have cost me $5000.00 in tooling. to me it is not worth it. I just make my ajustments
It is a little hard to see but anyone that wants me to mail them the high res picture you can see clearly the window has a little more curve than the OEM. The more you try to lie about these windows Archie the worse it looks for you. If you are going to show somthing like the window not in place and pass it off as not fitting and getting cought at your tricks it just makes you look bad. The new windows will be even better than these I am having them tweeked a little. I hope to get my test ones in a week or two.

Here is my Chop Look at the shadow on the OEM sail pannel and how it follows the chop top window if my window was flat it would not follow the same shadow.

the proof is people seeing and like JScott the more that see will tell you they disagree with you also.

I took a few shots of Mikes car... mostly was captivated by the spoiler... nice work dude!...

but I noticed one of my photos caught his carport roof line and trees reflecting in the window.
It might have a better angle than the one he posted.
I don't recall noticing a lack of curve in the windows, but to be honest... I did not look either... most every shot of the car was the spoiler. That NASCAR style looks excellent on a chop.



Jonathan was very diplomatic when studying Mike's windows... I could tell he was looking forward to when he can get glass over Lexan someday. The lex looked scratched (like dew wipes being abrasive on old Fiero glass that we've all seen)... and it seemed cloudy. Either RodneyB/Archie or Mikes windows would be a significant improvement over what is there.

-edit... figured I'd just add the whole shot... sweet spoiler!


------------------

<---- did you buy Cliff a beer?

[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 05-01-2009).]

quote Originally posted by F355spider: Archie, once again you start the trashing.

This is proof that you didn't even bother to read my post.

If you read it you'd note that I didn't call you names, I didn't call you a liar & I didn't insult you.

You might do well to try to control yourself & how you address people.

quote Originally posted by F355spider: Archie, once again you start the trashing. I just laid the chop top window on top of the OEM Fiero window and took a picture. the chop window has a little more curve right in the middle I circled the rear tab area that is not bent as much as the original and is why the window tracks are moved out. to get that moved were it needed to be would have cost me $5000.00 in tooling. to me it is not worth it. I just make my ajustments It is a little hard to see but anyone that wants me to mail them the high res picture you can see clearly the window has a little more curve than the OEM. The more you try to lie about these windows Archie the worse it looks for you. If you are going to show somthing like the window not in place and pass it off as not fitting and getting cought at your tricks it just makes you look bad. The new windows will be even better than these I am having them tweeked a little. I hope to get my test ones in a week or two.

I accept your apology.

You've just proven my point, the stock window has more curve to it than your window does.

This is what a stock window looks like in a Fiero with a 3" chop. Your flatter window would stand out even a little farther than the stock window does.



And, as I said before & you totally ignored, this is what your window looks like bolted into a Fiero with a 3" chop & witnessed by one of your customers.



Now, if you move the mounting hardware out far enough to pivot the top of the window in to meet the seal, then the flatter window will look like this....

quote Originally posted by F355spider: Here is my Chop Look at the shadow on the OEM sail pannel and how it follows the chop top window if my window was flat it would not follow the same shadow.

If you're talking about the reflections in the side windows, the top one looks like it continues nicely into the 1/4 window.

The bottom one looks like it's interrupted as it goes into the 1/4 window.

It would be a lot easier if you'd just take a picture like this one....



Thanks for your support.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 04-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Thats the problem you will get with lexan.

Technically, it's not Lexan. It's an aircraft grade Acrylic.

The guy who makes them for me is in the business of making aircraft canopies, clear light covers & other windows for aircraft. He vacuum forms my windows using the same materials & ovens he uses for the airplane parts.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 05-01-2009).]

What dew wipes do they use on the planes? That way we can make some that won't scratch them up.

quote Originally posted by Archie: Technically, it's not Lexan. It's an aircraft grade Acrylic. The guy who makes them for me is in the business of making aircraft canopies, clear light covers & other windows for aircraft. He vacuum forms my windows using the same materials & ovens he uses for the airplane parts. Archie

ohh got ya i stand corrected. acrylic does hole up better than lexan. i knoe in sign experiance if it has any color to it it tends to fade very fast but now on clear.
either way the socalled great state of PA wont allow it

My windows were not damaged by dew wipes...they have tons of scratching from being handled outside the car and overspray from an incompetent painter before I took it to Mark the paint guy (Firefox).

quote Originally posted by jscott1: My windows were not damaged by dew wipes...they have tons of scratching from being handled outside the car and overspray from an incompetent painter before I took it to Mark the paint guy (Firefox).

ahh... yeah, that would definately do it. I figured it was something along those lines..., especially seeing that I've not seen that level of wear on the Stinger or the GBCT.

Vaccuum formed acrylic... I'd like to see how that process is done.

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: ahh... yeah, that would definately do it. I figured it was something along those lines..., especially seeing that I've not seen that level of wear on the Stinger or the GBCT. Vaccuum formed acrylic... I'd like to see how that process is done.

It's really a cool process to watch. I've toured 3 different places that do this kind of work & it is cool to watch.

The guy that does mine also does all my other plastic parts. The headlight & parking light covers on my GT40, the side windows on the GT40, the headlight covers & 1/4 windows on the Fino/Finale & The Big ITEM, the rear window on my F-40



While this video is not from the guy who does mine, it is very similar equipment & process.

http://www.strimoo.com/vide...s-N-Stuff-Vimeo.html

Archie

Archie thanks for the idea. I am going today to see if I can get a t-shirt made up. On the back it will say "one of the Texas five" on the front a Fiero emblem. If I can get it done today I will wear it to the big car show tomorrow.
No name calling here Archie I think you are one of a kind
Oyea if anyone likes the T-shirts. I will get some more made up.

quote Originally posted by F355spider: Archie thanks for the idea. I am going today to see if I can get a t-shirt made up. On the back it will say "one of the Texas five" on the front a Fiero emblem.

Ha! that comment made me pause too... I wondered who you were talking about Archie... I guessed:

1) F355spider
2) MstangsBware
3) Jmbishop
4) DIY-Stu ?
5) ?

not that it mattered... but it did bog me down for a few minutes...
For grins I came up with what I call the 'A-Team'

1) Archie
2) Curl
3) Troy
4) DL10
5) ?

Not a bad thing mind you! I've met and enjoyed knowing all of you... just a very interesting dichotomy in the Fiero community.
"I love it when a Fiero comes together"

Archie... I tried watching the vaccuum process link from work... the company filter thwarted that idea. Thanks for the link though, will watch it this weekend.

-edit, fix quote tag

[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 05-01-2009).]

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: Ha! that comment made me pause too... I wondered who you were talking about Archie... I guessed: 1) F355spider 2) MstangsBware 3) Jmbishop 4) DIY-Stu ? 5) ? not that it mattered... but it did bog me down for a few minutes... For grins I came up with what I call the 'A-Team' 1) Archie 2) Curl 3) Troy 4) DL10 5) ? Not a bad thing mind you! I've met and enjoyed knowing all of you... just a very interesting dichotomy in the Fiero community. "I love it when a Fiero comes together"

I think you can add jscott to both list

I'm only speaking for myself but I think I could all get along fine with everyone listed in a face to face encounter. I think a lot of things get said on the Internet that would never be said in person. The only dog I have in this feud is the fact I own a car that was built by Archie and I get tired of the bashing so I speak up. I've gotten most of my ratings from a couple of Archie bashing threads.........mostly about these windows. I really don't want to go over all of it again but I am the one who sent Mike a pattern of the upper shape of my window, I didn't know what it looked like under the dew wipe or how it mounted to the track. When Mike got it and placed it up against his windows he claimed it fit to a nats ass.....The problem I saw was he was not lining up the black line to his dew wipe. He had to drop the back side of the window what looked like 1/2 to 1" to get the rest of the angles to line up. It's just like the picture holding it up to jscott car, it fits until you try and mount it. He may be able to move all the mounting points on the window and make it work but that has yet to be seen. Archie did mount one of mikes windows in one of his chops using the factory mounting points the pictures and links are listed above. There have been other Archie chop owner who have bought Mikes windows and they couldn't get them to work..........that's why Rodney started his group window buy thread.....Mike your latest choptop looks great.........don't worry about comparing your work to someone else's and I think you would be much better off.

quote Originally posted by DL10: I think you can add jscott to both list

If you insist. I'm trying to be the Switzerland of the Fiero Community. I really don't like taking sides. I have done business with Archie and I have done business with Mike. I've had nothing but positive experience with both. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with either in the future.

As for windows, eventually I hope to have a set of windows from both, but Archie's are my number one choice. Mike and I talked about that and he's cool with that.