So you agree then that you can't leave the mounting points in the stock location and have them fit.
Mike has already said that his windows can't be made to fit without moving the mounting points because that requires an extra bend in the glass that would cost an extra $5,000 set up fee.
Archie's previous attempt to find a glass bender revealed the same thing...the glass has to have this sharp bend inside the door and that bend makes the window a lot more expensive and impractical.
Now it appears that the Rodney Booth/ latest Archie window will have this bend and make it close to an exact copy of the acrylic window. If this is in fact true and we can get these windows for $650 then it's a great day for everybody.
But these windows don't yet exist, so until the glass bender actually bends them and we actually have a set in our hands we won't know for sure how close a fit they are. These glass benders do the best they can, but these latest windows could end up not exactly as expected.
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11:01 PM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
May I ask what the big deal is about using the factory mounting points or using factory built in adjustment is?
For crying out loud guys... if you are clever enough to chop a car and have it look right, interior pieces, back glass, seat tracks... I'd think that modding window tracks or doing something to a door handle would be the easiest part of the process.
I don't know... I've no desire to do either... but Really... if you can make rolling works or art... I'd think drilling a new attatch point on a glass guide or shimming one end would be positively trivial.
May I ask what the big deal is about using the factory mounting points or using factory built in adjustment is?
For crying out loud guys... if you are clever enough to chop a car and have it look right, interior pieces, back glass, seat tracks... I'd think that modding window tracks or doing something to a door handle would be the easiest part of the process.
I don't know... I've no desire to do either... but Really... if you can make rolling works or art... I'd think drilling a new attatch point on a glass guide or shimming one end would be positively trivial.
that's exactly why you would need a piece of glass with the proper compound curve on it. if you've put the work in to build a chop you want the windows to work and more almost more importantly, LOOK right. wrong curve and in some peoples eyes it won't LOOK right. if you or whoever can make themself happy with mikes glass then that's great! knock yourself out and have at it. i know how much work i've put into my car and it's not even close to being done. a chop really doesn't have much purpose functionionality wise, it's all about the LOOK. i want mine to have an as close to right LOOK as i can get it. i'll take my chances with archies group buy
------------------ 88blackchopv8
[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 05-03-2009).]
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11:36 PM
May 4th, 2009
DIY_Stu Member
Posts: 2337 From: Republic of TX Registered: Jun 2007
What looks wrong? The flatness that Archie is actually talking about is inside the door. The curves out side are ...... perfect.
It's like the lock rod. Yours may be bent a little differently than mine. So do you car so much about that or are you just as happy that it locks and unlocks just fine?
[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 05-04-2009).]
So what happens if the Rodney Booth windows end up not fitting either without modification to the track? Everyone going to put them in storage and wait for the next go around?
I would think that at about chop #2 that glass windows of some sort would have been applied and the chop would have been built around them. But I guess that was to hard to figure out and apply for some.
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12:09 AM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
i know how much work i've put into my car and it's not even close to being done. a chop really doesn't have much purpose functionionality wise, it's all about the LOOK. i want mine to have an as close to right LOOK as i can get it.
good luck on getting her finished up!
Your answer makes fine sense... if the group buy windows turn out as good looking as the stainless template RodneyB came up with, it should be a good solution.
It's just for a second there... I thought this had turned into a mounting point thread... and I was thinking... these guys can take motors, tranny's, lights, door hinges, brakes... and any other moddable item from other vehicles and put them on Fiero's, but are all up in arms about some window tracks & shims?... just seemed very trivial... like looking for any excuse for Mike's glass to be wrong.
It will probably be a long time before Mike can prove whether or not his glass fits in a non-Mike chop... closest opportunity will pobably be when Loyde finishes Will's car. But you can see for certain that the glass matches the door seal perimeter VERY nicely... and Mike followed me through rain that kept us at 10-15mph and visibility to a car length or two on Saturday... water on the road up to the sills in a couple places (we were about a mile from where that storm collapsed the Dallas Cowboy training center... if that made your local news...) and his windows worked great for his car.
So the fit is there... the function is there... some hidden modifications to allow install easily overcome... guess all that remains is the 'curve' issue... And until there is a non-Mike customer that will allow him to install them... there won't be an answer.
But I do hope the group buy windows work out for you... you're right... if the curve didn't match the car, and you had spent all that time and money to get it to look a certain way... to be thwarted by glass... you'd never be happy.
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01:12 AM
Ayrow Member
Posts: 520 From: Indianapolis, IN Registered: Nov 2001
I know I have no business posting in this thread, but one question I have continues to go unanswered for me since I've never actually seen a chop-top up close and in person; What are you guys (with chops) currently doing for windows? Are you just unable to roll them down and they are fixed, or do you never have one put on? I guess I don't get it since I see photos of chops with windows and some without.
Please educate me.
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02:13 AM
DIY_Stu Member
Posts: 2337 From: Republic of TX Registered: Jun 2007
You guys have been slinging a lot of crap my way for a long time. You pop into threads, where you don't have a stake, making negative comments or insulting me every chance you get. You insult my customers, Friends & employees all the time in many threads but offer no proof.
You've never been able to prove any of the accusations or personal insults you've come up with, but they keep coming.
How come none of you has spoken up against the outrage of a vendor right in your own back yard who has been proven to have screwed his Fiero customers out of more than $100000.00 over the last several years?
I'm not the only one who has noticed that with all the crap you throw my way & despite all the proof about what Loyde has done, you've never said one negative word about your buddy Loyde.
In fact, the only time any of you has commented is to back him up, you've tried to keep people that haven't been directly screwed by him from commenting in that thread & you do your best to try to send that thread to the TrashCan.
If I'm so bad that you've got to sling crap all the time & anywhere you can, I would hate to think how much crap you'd be dishing out if I had screwed my customers like your buddy Loyde has done.
Is Loyde the 5th person in your little circle jerk?
I know that I'm not the only one asking this question.
Archie
edit for spelling at 8:38 forum time
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 05-04-2009).]
What looks wrong? The flatness that Archie is actually talking about is inside the door. The curves out side are ...... perfect.
It's like the lock rod. Yours may be bent a little differently than mine. So do you car so much about that or are you just as happy that it locks and unlocks just fine?
if it looks right with mikes glass to you well then that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. if you're happy with it in your car then fabulous, all is peachy in your world. 1, the curves are not "perfect" 2, if you look at mikes pictures where he is holding the glass up to the car i don't like how the glass is fitting to the seals. i may be nitpicking but it's my opinion. i want the best possible fitting windows in my car. i believe archies glass group buy is the best option FOR ME. frankly, if i have to modify the tracks to get glass to seal properly i could care less, but in order for me to be happy with the LOOK, i want the curves and shape of the glass as close to perfect for my car as i can get them.
read this post by me again
QOUTE when archie said they weren't a "drop in" he was talking about the time and disassembly required to change/install door glass. what he was saying was that it's not a 10 minute procedure. read his post and you'll find that to be true. when I said "drop in" in my post i was referring to installing the glass and adjusting "within factory adjustment range" and getting the windows to seal and follow the curve of the body properly. i'm sorry i wasn't clear on this, as i assumed my explanation was obvious.
my bad, i'm sure you're a fairly intelligent guy, i hope you can understand it now.
archies group buy windows are designed to fit into stock position tracks and within the provided factory adjustment range be able to have the windows properly seal and follow the curve of an archie choptop. NO modifications to the track outside the range of what the factory had built in will be required to fit this glass into an archie chop. my chop is similar but is not an archie chop so i MAY require some modification to my tracks. to install mikes glass in an archie chop or my chop it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so without modifying the tracks BEYOND the built in factory adjustment range. mike himself said track mounting position had to be changed so much as to require NEW MOUNTING HOLES for tracks and/or track brackets. that doesn't sound like "original" or "oem" or "within factory adjustment range"or "drop in" to me.
i hope i'm now clear on this. if you have any questions on what i posted please ask. before you twist mine or anyone elses explanation of what they're trying to get across maybe you should ask for clarification from said individual so you can keep your facts straight. otherwise it just looks like you're trying to sully other peoples reputations for your own personal benefit or gain. i think you would agree this kind of behaviour doesn't reflect well on you. END QOUTE
i think it's very straightforward and self explanatory. i and when i say i i mean me won't be happy with the fit of mikes windows to my car. i just haven't seen them installed into an archie chop to make the fit good enough for me. archies group buy windows will have the proper curve and shape to fit very well into his chops, and also fit better/easier into a chop done similar to his. again if you're happy with how it works and fits for you than have a coke and a smile, but for me i want the fit and the look to be as close to perfect/right as i can get it.
------------------ 88blackchopv8
[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 05-04-2009).]
You guys have been slinging a lot of crap my way for a long time. You pop into threads, where you don't have a stake, making negative comments or insulting me every chance you get. You insult my customers, Friends & employees all the time in many threads but offer no proof.
You've never been able to prove any of the accusations or personal insults you've come up with, but they keep coming.
How come none of you has spoken up against the outrage of a vendor right in your own back yard who has been proven to have screwed his Fiero customers out of more than $100000.00 over the last several years?
I'm not the only one who has noticed that with all the crap you throw my way & despite all the proof about what Loyde has done, you've never said one negative word about your buddy Loyde.
In fact, the only time any of you has commented is to back him up, you've tried to keep people that haven't been directly screwed by him from commenting in that thread & you do your best to try to send that thread to the TrashCan.
If I'm so bad that you've got to sling crap all the time & anywhere you can, I would hate to think how much crap you'd be dishing out if I had screwed my customers like your buddy Loyde has done.
Is Loyde the 5th person in your little circle jerk?
I know that I'm not the only one asking this question.
Archie
edit for spelling at 8:38 forum time
I guess the heat is on and it is time for "Change the Subject" tactic.--Typical of you!!!!
There is a Thread about Loyde already that you can post i if you feel the need. This Thread is about choptops and the poor quality of plastic windows you use in them and how it took a customer to actually take the time/effort to come up with glass windows.
We have not decided on the 5th person yet--Application are being accepted now for the slot though.
You guys have been slinging a lot of crap my way for a long time. You pop into threads, where you don't have a stake, making negative comments or insulting me every chance you get. You insult my customers, Friends & employees all the time in many threads but offer no proof.
You've never been able to prove any of the accusations or personal insults you've come up with, but they keep coming.
How come none of you has spoken up against the outrage of a vendor right in your own back yard who has been proven to have screwed his Fiero customers out of more than $100000.00 over the last several years?
I'm not the only one who has noticed that with all the crap you throw my way & despite all the proof about what Loyde has done, you've never said one negative word about your buddy Loyde.
In fact, the only time any of you has commented is to back him up, you've tried to keep people that haven't been directly screwed by him from commenting in that thread & you do your best to try to send that thread to the TrashCan.
If I'm so bad that you've got to sling crap all the time & anywhere you can, I would hate to think how much crap you'd be dishing out if I had screwed my customers like your buddy Loyde has done.
Is Loyde the 5th person in your little circle jerk?
I know that I'm not the only one asking this question.
Archie
edit for spelling at 8:38 forum time
You have got to be kidding me. You know the only reason you posted this was to get this thread put in the trash can.
You have got to be kidding me. You know the only reason you posted this was to get this thread put in the trash can.
why would archie want this thread in the trashcan? the info in this thread points out the many differences between mikes glass and archies glass group buy. i would think the best customers would be the most informed customers for anyone selling a particular product, wouldn't you agree? i'm sure mike or archie wouldn't want to misrepresent what they're selling, wouldn't you agree?
Right. Are they fixed in position and not roll up and down??
Yes-_Archees windows roll up/down but have to be trained to fit the door correctly. So when you get the car back, you have to hold to window in while rolling it up. It is a great feature for 4 grand.
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01:19 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by jmbishop: You have got to be kidding me. You know the only reason you posted this was to get this thread put in the trash can.
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop: I'm not going to get into this, anything I say about Archie will give him more exuses to go off topic, attack us, and get this thread to disapear.
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware: I guess the heat is on and it is time for "Change the Subject" tactic.--Typical of you!!!!
There is a Thread about Loyde already that you can post i if you feel the need. This Thread is about choptops and the poor quality of plastic windows you use in them and how it took a customer to actually take the time/effort to come up with glass windows.
We have not decided on the 5th person yet--Application are being accepted now for the slot though.
Just as suspected, you guys never answer any questions & don't care about the accuracy of any of your statements. You just sling more crap & misquote anyone who disagrees with you.
As has already been stated, why would I want this thread in the trashcan?
Just like Joshua's thread on the windows, which you guys sent to the trashcan, It already has proven every point I've made. That's why I keep using it as a reference everytime this topic comes up. That's why I'll also be posting links to this thread the next time this topic comes up.
MstangsBstupid: Thanks for the invite, I will post my question to the thread about your buddy.
In fact, I think I'm going to post it to any thread you guys participate in.
BTW: Loyde is the 5th of the Texas 5. In fact he's the head pivot man in the circle jerk that you boy got going there.
Just as suspected, you guys never answer any questions & don't care about the accuracy of any of your statements. You just sling more crap & misquote anyone who disagrees with you.
As has already been stated, why would I want this thread in the trashcan?
Just like Joshua's thread on the windows, which you guys sent to the trashcan, It already has proven every point I've made. That's why I keep using it as a reference everytime this topic comes up. That's why I'll also be posting links to this thread the next time this topic comes up.
MstangsBstupid: Thanks for the invite, I will post my question to the thread about your buddy.
In fact, I think I'm going to post it to any thread you guys participate in.
BTW: Loyde is the 5th of the Texas 5. In fact he's the head pivot man in the circle jerk that you boy got going there.
Archie
Your questions where meant to provoke us and get this thread in the trash can. They don't deserve answers.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 05-04-2009).]
No, its not, its stating his windows in a Archie chop. Is Archie suposed to offended by that?
His windows have never been in a Archie choptop, the thing about the windows is not the curve of the window I'm talking about, it's the shape. I know what Mike has to do to make them fit his cars and that does not include moving the mounting points. This is what I have been bitching about all along every since I sent him the template. Mike had his windows made to fit the mounting point.....There was just not enough curve to make them seal without cutting the door beam and pushing the top of the window in while moving the bottom out. But to make them fit a Archie choptop you not only have to do this you also have to move the mounting points because the angles on Mikes chops are off enough they won't fit without doing this. You may be able to make them fit but they don't fit to a "nats azz". Do you get what I'm saying ?? When Mike got my template if he would of placed it on the window properly {black line on the dew wipe] instead of dropping the black line down in the back youwould then see that all of the othher angles are off. If Mike would have said
That still doesn't exlane why Archie would be offended.
Back to the windows Here are the pros and cons I see for Mike's windows that have already been made and Archie's glass windows that don't exist yet
Mike's PROS: cheaper proven to fit a car chopper "close enough" to the way archie chops fiero's CONS: You have to adjust the window tracks and make room for the window by changing the door handle a little.
Archie's PROS: should take minimal adjusting of the tracks if any CONS: They don't exist They will cost more
I don't see what the the problem is here. So what if you have to change the door a little. The roof is chopped and people can't handle changing a few small parts in a door?
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 05-04-2009).]
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05:42 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
Mike this is your thread so I assume you are watching it.. I asked in another thread but was told you weren't participating in that thread so I will ask here..........
What would it cost to bring you a car and have you chop it and do all interior and exterior mods with glass windows.
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06:17 PM
DIY_Stu Member
Posts: 2337 From: Republic of TX Registered: Jun 2007
Because when the thread came out that he put them in his own chop he got bashed. Then when he said he can fit them in another he got bashed. Name calling etc etc etc. This topic has been a thorn for it's entirity. It's been said time and time again that Glass windows will not FIT ANY CHOP TOP time and time again.
"Windows can be made but the cost is very high. The tooling and minimum order requirements would be well over $40K. Heck the tooling for the windows I currently use was more than $5K."
"I've found that this Bent glass place makes glass that is about 1/16" inch thicker than the original Fiero glass. That don't sound like much but let me try to explain what that 1/16" means. Let me try to explain what that 1/16" means and why I'm holding up on this for now."
"All of us have seen Stock Fieros with heavy Vertical scratches in the Glass side windows. Those scratches are caused by 2 pads welded into the doors on the outside right below the outer Dew Wipes. Those pads have some felt on them but are not adjustable and can't be removed because they are the pads that hold the window solid against the rubber seal around the door. Remove them & the window will leak."
"So now we know what causes the heavy scratches on the stock glass side windows on Fieros. Now 3 more factors become involved in a Chop Top situation. #1 the side windows in my Chop Top have a lot more curve in them & thus will ride even harder against those outside pads & will be even more inclined to scratch. #2 Because the side window attaches to the outside of the window mechanism, that extra 1/16" of window thickness will make an extra 1/16" of pressure against those outside pads that cause the scratches on Stock Fiero windows. #3 Those that already have Chop Tops should know that because of the extra curvature of the side windows, right now when the window is rolled down it just barely clears the inside of the side impact door beam. With anymore curvature or window thickness a modification may have to be made to the door beam to keep it from scratching the window."
"Technically, it's not Lexan. It's an aircraft grade Acrylic." Website says"d) We remove the original Fiero side windows and replace them with custom made Lexan parts."
We've heard this time and time again. So finally someone found a way and got slammed for it.
[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 05-04-2009).]
Don't change the subject just answer my question...When Mike had these windows made did he design then so he had to move the mounting points in his car or is he able to use these points in the stock location in his car? I'm pretty sure all he needed to do in his car was get them to angle in more..........right.
I have to make the same changes to my cars as I would an Archie chop. They were made to make the changes to the tracks but to fit the window opening. This was done to save tooling cost.
I didn't ask you I asked Mike.......but since you want to answer........I don't want a starting price...I want the full deal just like Archie gives.....except with glass windows.
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07:53 PM
DIY_Stu Member
Posts: 2337 From: Republic of TX Registered: Jun 2007
BTW Archie I have never stood up for anything loyde does or promotes. He's way overpriced for what you get and I have seen the quality of his work too. Neither do I like. I believe I've even posted publicly how he had to have lawsuits threatened to get any work out of him. Now we see your newest tactic of trying to associate others with someone who has done others wrong.
DL Then get a QUOTE just like Archie gives.
[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 05-04-2009).]
BTW: Loyde is the 5th of the Texas 5. In fact he's the head pivot man in the circle jerk that you boy got going there.
Archie
Here you are wrong again, anyone that knows me will tell you I have never have liked loyde or promoted him in anyway. I put him in the same category as I do you. I think this is another bad attempt to slander me and is very sad you would feel you have to do something like this again to try to get rid of me. Why are you so afraid of me to have to do this.
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08:15 PM
Brocephus Member
Posts: 617 From: Franklin, NY, USA Registered: Mar 2006
I'm in the same boat as Ayrow in that, I've never seen a chop top. I'm almost leary of making this suggestion as there seems to be quite a lot of bad blood between the involved parties, but it's times like these when the question needs to be asked:
"Who is supposed to benefit from the creation of windows made to fit Archie's chop tops?" Archie? F355spider? No. It's neither.
The people that would benefit most from the creation of glass windows designed to fit Archie's chop top would be Archie's customers. Now, being a non-chop top owner and blissfully ignorant of the drama present in this thread, gives me the ability to peer in as a completely uninformed and disinterested third party. With this perspective, I would like to offer a suggestion; and please do correct me if I'm mistaken. I'm definitely not trying to put words into anyone's mouth or make false claims on anyone's behalf.
- F355spider claims to have glass windows that will fit a chop top performed by Archie.
- Archie is in the process of developing glass windows for his chops so that he can offer them to his chop top customers.
No businessman in his right mind would purposefully seek out the most expensive part he could find if he knew there was a cheaper alternative available. So one can safely assume that Archie has done his best to find a supplier that can make a quality part for as little money as possible.
F355spider seems to have a line on a supplier that can build the windows for Archie's chop tops and has even gone to the expense of having a prototype made for test purposes. However, F355spider needs an Archie chopped car that he can modify, at will, in order to test-fit his windows.
Having said this, is it so far-fetched of an idea to think that both sides could put aside their personal differences long enough to work together in an effort to build a quality part that would be mutually beneficial to both businessmen and ultimately, their customers?
Let me know ahead of time if I need to put on my fire-proof blanket, lol.
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08:28 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
Other than looks why not just frame the window? Serious question.
This is the first serious question I've seen in a while in this thread...
I'm thinking about something similar...
What if instead just the glass pressed up against a rubber seal the glass would rise up into a channel? This would work if you also implemented the system where the glass automatically drops an inch or so every time the door opens, and automatically rises when the door closes.
It would help the alignment issue for any frameless glass and leaks would be non-existent.
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08:49 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
F355spider seems to have a line on a supplier that can build the windows for Archie's chop tops and has even gone to the expense of having a prototype made for test purposes. However, F355spider needs an Archie chopped car that he can modify, at will, in order to test-fit his windows.
Having said this, is it so far-fetched of an idea to think that both sides could put aside their personal differences long enough to work together in an effort to build a quality part that would be mutually beneficial to both businessmen and ultimately, their customers?
Brocephus - Even though I have a couple of dogs in this fight I'm trying to stay impartial...you are right there is a lot of bad blood, and any mention of chop tops and windows brings up all the hard feelings.
The one thing you got wrong is that Mike has had many, many pairs of these glass windows made and sold them. Archie is correct to point out that these were not designed with his car in mind. Can they be made to fit? That's the $64,000 question. Until it's done it's just opinions.
But if you back away from it, having multiple suppliers for a difficult to get part does seem like it would benefit everyone. The Fiero community is too small and too unsupported to split into two camps.
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08:56 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Yes-_Archees windows roll up/down but have to be trained to fit the door correctly. So when you get the car back, you have to hold to window in while rolling it up. It is a great feature for 4 grand.
Hmmm. When I owned the GBCT I never had to do this, and I had them connected to a fob remote and would roll them up and down all the time. They were over 3 years old when I bought the car too.
<---- did you buy Cliff a beer?
