i'd guess we would all just feel more comfy ponying up to the bar if we saw a working prototype that had been stress-tested. my fiero is my daily driver, so it can't be down for more than a couple of days at a time, plus i'd hate for the door to fall off at the gas station 5miles from work, and 6miles from home. if i had a second car on which to dote on, i wouldn't be quite so approach-avoidant about putting novel parts on it. could you please show us kids some development pics or drawings?
i'd guess we would all just feel more comfy ponying up to the bar if we saw a working prototype that had been stress-tested. my fiero is my daily driver, so it can't be down for more than a couple of days at a time, plus i'd hate for the door to fall off at the gas station 5miles from work, and 6miles from home. if i had a second car on which to dote on, i wouldn't be quite so approach-avoidant about putting novel parts on it. could you please show us kids some development pics or drawings?
Pics and drawings, not until I send in the patent. When I have that I will post pics with it mounted on a peice of sheet metal (about what you would find on a car..) and put about 100lbs at the end of a rod connected to it instead of a door to test and show its strength. Then I'll put it on a car and show it on there... they will come with step by step instructions and wiring diagrams... this kit will also come with a light indicator that tells you if your battery is going bad/getting low (since it has to have power to work).
[This message has been edited by AJ7 (edited 01-05-2007).]
IP: Logged
11:26 PM
Jan 6th, 2007
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7568 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
Re: Lambo hinges - anything can be made in a home garage providing you have some basic tools. That is all you should need to build a prototype. It may take a lot more time to do and a lot more manual labour, but saying you can't do it is a weak excuse.
You can do a fair amount of work with some simple tools (different files and a hacksaw - even a jigsaw would work) - after all it's just a prototype and does not have to be 'perfect'. The job just goes faster with a cutting torch (or plasma cutter) and a die grinder, faster with a milling machine and even faster with a CNC. You should even be able to rent a small 110v welder if needed. Just a matter of how serious (or lazy you are) - after all, how do you think they made metal brackets, etc before the milling machine?
Once you know what will work, it's nothing to have the parts CNC machined afterwards.
Re: Lambo hinges - anything can be made in a home garage providing you have some basic tools. That is all you should need to build a prototype. It may take a lot more time to do and a lot more manual labour, but saying you can't do it is a weak excuse.
You can do a fair amount of work with some simple tools (different files and a hacksaw - even a jigsaw would work) - after all it's just a prototype and does not have to be 'perfect'. The job just goes faster with a cutting torch (or plasma cutter) and a die grinder, faster with a milling machine and even faster with a CNC. You should even be able to rent a small 110v welder if needed. Just a matter of how serious (or lazy you are) - after all, how do you think they made metal brackets, etc before the milling machine?
Once you know what will work, it's nothing to have the parts CNC machined afterwards.
You can NOT make these with basic tools. You know nothing about my designs. They have to be exact for it to work right. I dont see a point in making something I cant use (I can draw it and see how it will work and use 3d CAD programs to make a 3d model of it) I need to actually make the product, put it on a car and test it. I may be able to make one out of wood but then all I can do is look at it... I cant make it out of metal without a machine shop.
Now my question for you is, How do YOU know that you can do all of this? what have you done before? just curious.
IP: Logged
02:07 PM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
AJ7, I hope you can take this post as an encouragement, because that is the spirit in which I am writing it.
You can make your prototype parts by hand, and you can make them to your exact specifications. I am speaking from experience, and also from the experience of being an entrepreneur faced with the struggle of starting from nothing. The only "sophisticated" pieces of machinery in my little shop are a 1938 South Bend lathe and a decent compressor, but I can make a LOT of stuff with my simple hand and power tools. It does take a great deal of time, but it can be done. There are just things you have to compensate for. You rough cut and grind and file to size. You drill holes in stages. You measure five hundred times. You make special fixtures to steady your hands and tools, etc. I do a lot of prototyping and sometimes I do come across things that are too complex for my shop. I solve that by having local machine shops do a piece or an operation for me; or I find a way to "simulate" on the prototype, and allow for correction in the production parts.
There are also the rental places, which rent an amazing variety of tools now. Our local Rental Corral even has plazma cutters. If you don't have a welder, rent a 110v from one. If you need more weld, just tack everything and go to a professional welder, etc, etc. You have to be determined and creative - but you need to be those two things and a lot more to be an entrepreneur. I think you should try it, because it would be good training for your business skills and mentality.
Also, watch falling into the perfectionist thing. I am really guilty of that. I am a perfectionist by nature and it is a real hindrance sometimes. Sometimes it really is better to get a thing done, than absolutely done right. In business, you are serving the needs of the customer. They determine what level of perfection they want not you! Nine times out of ten the customer will pick the nine-tenth's part for the lower price, as opposed to paying for "perfection". I still want perfection, and still reach for it, but it has its time and place. I have come to the conclusion that I would rather be a successful, profitable, entrepreneur now; than a starving artist who once did great things. Effectiveness.
I hope all this makes sense. If you need creative help on how to make prototypes with a caveman stone hammer and granite rock anvil I would be happy to give whatever advice I can. You don't have to disclose your intellectual property rights to me, you can just tell me what you are trying to do with a piece of material and what tools you have; and I'll see if I can help you do it. There is also a legal form called a non-disclosure document that you can use to get help. You have EVERYONE you show or discuss your products with (in detail - not like here in this thread) sign one and they are bound by law to NOT steal your idea. If you can't find one I can probably give you a generic copy of mine. A friend and I got it from his lawyer.
------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-06-2007).]
Thanks, I probably could make it myself with what I have if I spent many hours working on it, but I still need the money to make it after that! I'll have the money next week. So you will see progress soon. And maybe I will ask you how to do some of this with regular tools... I just have limited tools and have had limited funds, thats why its taken so long.
Pretty cool. If you make these, don't sell them to anyone but Fiero owners
whatever :P I will eventually make the Lambo ones bolt ons for most all cars but for fiero's first, but this kit has to be universal.. cant just bolt it on in factory location.
IP: Logged
11:10 PM
Jan 7th, 2007
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
I made this firewall and pedal assemblies for my street rod project by hand: The tools used were a jig saw, 4.5" right-angle grinder, hand drill, hammer, and common hand tools. I have a drill press now, but did all the holes in these by hand. I still have hours and hours of finishing work to do but they assemble like high-end factory parts and works perfectly. I have to have the pedal mounts and the brake pedal adjusting block TIG'd on (they're bolted from the back now). That adjusting block was hand carved from a chunk of aluminum with the aforementioned grinder. I turned a threaded insert for it on the lathe, heated the block with a propane torch, and "press-fit" the insert into the block with a piece of wood and my hammer.
It just takes a little more time, but I love the "old world" craftsman feeling of turning raw ingredients into functional art - by hand!
------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-07-2007).]
You can NOT make these with basic tools. You know nothing about my designs. They have to be exact for it to work right. I dont see a point in making something I cant use (I can draw it and see how it will work and use 3d CAD programs to make a 3d model of it) I need to actually make the product, put it on a car and test it. I may be able to make one out of wood but then all I can do is look at it... I cant make it out of metal without a machine shop.
Now my question for you is, How do YOU know that you can do all of this? what have you done before? just curious.
If it can be made out of wood - I can be made out of metal using similar hand tools. You can get fairly exact with hand tools (unless you are talking thousandths of an inch - which is way over engineered for a door hinge).
What have I done - try doing a search, having done a few engine swaps - all home made brackets for the swaps, plus I have done a couple sets of 'brake upgrade' brackets. Also, made up a couple of the Muncie slave cylinder brackets for some clubs members out of 1/8" steel. All using hand tools (and a welder) - well I used a cutting torch for the rough shape on the brake adaptors as they were out of 1/4" steel. I have even seen a set of modified Honda hinges on a Fiero, and they didn't look 'that' complicated that they could not be copied and made at home in a garage.
What have you done?? Nothing that I have seen except for a lot of beaking off - no pictures, nothing - just alot of bragging that you have designed this awesome (better than sliced bread) Lambo door hinge and it is so that that you are waiting to patent it. You know what: put your money where you mouth is. For someone who is SO creative, I am sure that you 'should' be able to figure out how to do it with hand tools (or maybe not)...**** or get off the pot... :lala:
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-07-2007).]
IP: Logged
02:47 PM
Jarhead 2m4 Member
Posts: 1849 From: Missouri City, TX Registered: Jun 2006
Pretty cool. If you make these, don't sell them to anyone but Fiero owners
whatever :P I will eventually make the Lambo ones bolt ons for most all cars but for fiero's first, but this kit has to be universal.. cant just bolt it on in factory location. [/QUOTE]
I meant that I'd hate to see something this cool be wasted on Honda Civics, with the way the ricers ruined vertical door kits for the rest of us
I meant that I'd hate to see something this cool be wasted on Honda Civics, with the way the ricers ruined vertical door kits for the rest of us
i'm sticking to the lambo's for now, then i'll do these. and the lambo kit will be bolt on. i'll let you know when i actually know when i'll be started, instead of a guess.
IP: Logged
11:36 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Begin rant... sorry in advance, I just can't stop this one.
I'm interested in seeing you actually make something instead of just talking about it and wasting bandwidth for years. Worrying about patenting something where your stated goal is to improve an existing design... how the hell do you think your going to get a patent when your copying someone else's idea. And you don't have the resources to build product, you think you'll have them to fight infringements on your patents? Remember failure to defend ANY infringements breaks your patent, so if you can't afford to fight everyone that copies your supposedly original, non obvious design that has never been used before by anyone... the patent is just a waste of time and effort.
I have come to seriously doubt your doing anything besides talk big on the net. The hinge you now want to make into something universal is a work of art integrated into the car design. It's also structural... and you think you can make it cheap and universal?
Get a reality check. You haven't even gotten a prototype of a hinge... a freaking hinge that has dozens of competing products already on the market. But everyone is supposed to believe your magical hinge is better, cheaper and patentable.
I'm sorry to sound rude, but why are you wasting everyone's time with your fantasy? You don't seem to actually have any tools, design experience, engineering knowledge, access to a fiero to test fit product on, you aren't actually building anything (although I seem to remember some silly wood pictures posted at one point). What exactly are you doing to design and build things? Just drawing things on a napkin and trying to talk other people/businesses into producing an actual product? What are you doing for financing?
I'd really like to see something that shows that you are a) serious, b) capable. I don't think you have a clue what would be involved in building and mounting a safe variation of what you are now proposing, much less the cost. That you think it's easier than a lambo hinge was the final straw for me.
I'd really like to see something that shows that you are a) serious, b) capable. I don't think you have a clue what would be involved in building and mounting a safe variation of what you are now proposing, much less the cost. That you think it's easier than a lambo hinge was the final straw for me.
/rant
I'm very serious, and very capable. I'm just not showing you any pictures until I get a patent, and I dont care what you say about a patent, its for me not you. I'm protecting myself. not my design(all someone would have to do is change a couple things and make it anyway). In other words, someone else cant say I copied their kit and sue me, because for the first year I will have a patent pending, They wont be able to take me to court for it for anything.
This kit would be easier to make, but cost more because of all the electronics involved(which means I'd have to have all that extra money just for a prototype) plus designes change over and over until you find the right one (3 times before I got the lambo kit designed). I figured out how to make the Lambo kit here. So I dont need to go anywhere else to get it done. It will be alot more work for me but I can do it. Oh, and it seems like there is Alot of people here that want the lambo kit more than this one. So, I've decided to give them what they want first(And yes, A bolt-on kit for the fiero). Then I'll start on this one. And all the wait, thats why I said I'd post when I KNOW when I'll be started, because I've found I cant rely on anyone but myself.
Oh, and Scott-Wa, were you even interested in one of my kits?
I made this firewall and pedal assemblies for my street rod project by hand: The tools used were a jig saw, 4.5" right-angle grinder, hand drill, hammer, and common hand tools. I have a drill press now, but did all the holes in these by hand. I still have hours and hours of finishing work to do but they assemble like high-end factory parts and works perfectly. I have to have the pedal mounts and the brake pedal adjusting block TIG'd on (they're bolted from the back now). That adjusting block was hand carved from a chunk of aluminum with the aforementioned grinder. I turned a threaded insert for it on the lathe, heated the block with a propane torch, and "press-fit" the insert into the block with a piece of wood and my hammer.
It just takes a little more time, but I love the "old world" craftsman feeling of turning raw ingredients into functional art - by hand!
This is why I decided to make the Lambo kit instead, I can put more work into it myself and make it. You made me think of different ways I could make it. thanks.
IP: Logged
08:35 AM
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7568 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
Begin rant... sorry in advance, I just can't stop this one.
I'm interested in seeing you actually make something instead of just talking about it and wasting bandwidth for years....
Exactly, first he says, can't do them because it's a long drive to make a prototype and then to test fit it. I mention that the prototype could be made with hand tools at home.
He calls me a moron and that I don't anything about his design and that it can't be made with hand tools - the design has to be perfect and could only be done with a CNC machine.
quote
Originally posted by AJ7: You can NOT make these with basic tools. You know nothing about my designs. They have to be exact for it to work right...I cant make it out of metal without a machine shop.
Now my question for you is, How do YOU know that you can do all of this? what have you done before? just curious.
Later along in this thread he now admits that he could possibly make it (only after someone else also told him he could make them by hand).
quote
Originally posted by toddshotrods: You can make your prototype parts by hand, and you can make them to your exact specifications. I am speaking from experience...
quote
Originally posted by AJ7: I can put more work into it myself and make it. You made me think of different ways I could make it. thanks.
I found a mill, and thats what I needed, And a plasma cutter or oxy/ac, I have neither at home. Oh, and a machine that makes gears, Anyone have one of those laying around at home?
I found local places that do have what I need. (found a guy locally with a vertical mill that doesnt have any kind of advertising, no signs or anything) CNC would be perfect, thats why I wanted to use CNC.. I dont want a product with lots of imperfections(yes it has to be perfect for me).
[This message has been edited by AJ7 (edited 01-12-2007).]
IP: Logged
12:36 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I'm very serious, and very capable. I'm just not showing you any pictures until I get a patent, and I dont care what you say about a patent, its for me not you. I'm protecting myself. not my design(all someone would have to do is change a couple things and make it anyway). In other words, someone else cant say I copied their kit and sue me, because for the first year I will have a patent pending, They wont be able to take me to court for it for anything.
Your understanding of the legal system and patents is lacking. Anyone can sue you at any time, a patent doesn't stop that at all. The only thing it gives you is the right to sue other people that fail to pay you royalties for using your idea. If you can show that you came up with an idea first, and your idea is to let others copy it, put it in the public domain. That would squash any patent attempt that came later... and is a heck of a lot cheaper.
quote
From the Patent Office
What Is a Patent?
A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the Patent and Trademark Office. The term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. US patent grants are effective only within the US, US territories, and US possessions.
The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention.
Read that, then read it again and again and again until you get it through your head that it doesn't offer you any protection against being sued, it gives you the right to sue others for violating your patent. That's IT. Others can and will still sue you if they want to break your patent. But in this case they would just ignore it since you don't plan on defending it.
quote
[B]Originally posted by AJ7:
Oh, and Scott-Wa, were you even interested in one of my kits?
The concept intrigues me... but I'm not holding my breath for something I don't believe is coming. You seem to be lacking in business sense, having neither the finances or facilities to produce what you want to make.
The concept intrigues me... but I'm not holding my breath for something I don't believe is coming. You seem to be lacking in business sense, having neither the finances or facilities to produce what you want to make.
I'm making something from nothing. Lets see what comes from it
Dont need to try and start an argument with me about a patent. I'm not taking care of the legal end, I will have someone else do it, you didnt even get what I was saying about the patent, I'm only getting it so I know I'm not getting onto someone elses patent, I'm getting a "patent pending", It lasts 1 year, then If I need it I'll go ahead and get a patent. I've been over this stuff so much I dont see a point in replying about it anymore, So how bout' you just wait and see what comes of it? If you dont want to wait for my kit/s there are others out there, nothing I can do about that.
[This message has been edited by AJ7 (edited 01-12-2007).]
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
