quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8: So, the very person you stand in defense of - who hasn't set foot in here to back you up, BTW - thinks our home and native land is funny.

"Funny"? More than that must've been stated. Can you supply a link to that thread or at least an idea of what the topic heading was called? I'd like to see it for myself.

Sure, Lex. From page two of this thread:

quote the **** mag thing is an old reference to something that happened along time ago and was appologized for by said parties. the "sign my balls" was maybe bad taste but again, not everyone saw it that way.

MAYBE in bad TASTE?? Not everyone saw it that way?? ANYONE who stands in defense of a statement like that directed at an 11-year-old who, as stated numerous times before, reads this forum has crossed a line. If he is a parent as he claims to be, I would expect more sensitivity out of him. I'm not saying the original statement is OK, either. Donk was the only one in here making reference to this and i feel it shows he stands in defense of the problem we're all adressing here. How many of our members need to be treated like this in order for donk to share his knowledge of 60 degree engines? Is it really worth it?

quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8: Sure, Lex. From page two of this thread: MAYBE in bad TASTE?? Not everyone saw it that way?? ANYONE who stands in defense of a statement like that directed at an 11-year-old who, as stated numerous times before, reads this forum has crossed a line. If he is a parent as he claims to be, I would expect more sensitivity out of him. I'm not saying the original statement is OK, either. Donk was the only one in here making reference to this and i feel it shows he stands in defense of the problem we're all adressing here. How many of our members need to be treated like this in order for donk to share his knowledge of 60 degree engines? Is it really worth it?

Regardless of if Donk thought it was in good or bad taste, he wasn't the one who posted it. Opinions and actions are two different things.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: "Funny"? More than that must've been stated. Can you supply a link to that thread or at least an idea of what the topic heading was called? I'd like to see it for myself.

Sorry, Patrick. If I rate someone, I keep a link to the post that I'm rating them about. I periodically revisit the negative-rated links to make sure I wasn't taking the post the wrong way and/or overreacting. The link https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/046230.html was the only reference I have and it now doesn't work. I don't like not being able to back up my statements and I have looked through the trash can for this post to try to reference it again. I can't find it.

I'm not trying to blow the whistle on that post in particular, that's not my point. My point is that while donk stands alone defending this person, he's off making nagative remarks about the country donk is living in.

quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8: I'm not trying to blow the whistle on that post in particular, that's not my point. My point is that while donk stands alone defending this person, he's off making nagative remarks about the country donk is living in.

The Punisher is canadian. Atleast JM is, I think.

If you can't back up your claims, you should edit them out.

**soapbox time**

There's a great way to cool off the flame wars: don't get involved. I know I'm not innocent. I've been in my fair share of heated debates. But when I get the feeling that a debate I'm involved in has turned into an argument, I back off and let things cool down. I don't need to get the last word in. What I need to do is turn off the monitor and go enjoy the real world. I try very hard to follow this principle, because it works. Y'all should try it too.

As far as ignoring posts/users is concerned... you have the ability to ignore anything you want. It's built into your brain. The human brain has an incredible amount of untapped potential. Why not try to put some of it to use? The art of rolling your eyes, muttering to yourself "God, what an idiot!", and hitting the Back button on your browser is IMO a very valuable skill, and not difficult to learn. This allows you to find something interesting to read, instead of wasting your time feeding the trolls.

Please note that I'm not trying to patronize or insult anyone here. That's not my intention. I just don't like the idea of turning Cliff and the forum software into the "Big Brother" watching over our shoulders. Cliff has given us the ability to watch over each other. And we have the built-in ability to watch over ourselves. We just haven't learned (or don't have the will) to use these abilities to their fullest extent yet. I think we should try to work on that, instead of turning PFF into a nanny-state.

**stepping down**

quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Pun may have posted "silly or funny" stuff about Canada....how many times have i goofed off about the USA and "amerkians"....Pun lives in Florida. Its just goofing off man...He ribs Canucks when ever he can...I lay into Americans where i can....Its not anything more than that. Plus Jon is from ontario.

Maybe stop taking this so seriously? Can you help a guy out?

[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by donk316: way to be a f$#k and not drop it. Can you stop? 10,000 people are laughin at you because your a fool. "Can you do use a favor and go away? Please?" Your pissing me off now im TRYING to be good.

That's a nice post !

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: **soapbox time** There's a great way to cool off the flame wars: don't get involved. **stepping down**

All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. The more we are not involved the worse that PFF will become.

If nothing else the threads on this subject seen to be helping to keep the trolls under control. Some people are even trying to do better!

quote Originally posted by California Kid: That's a nice post !

Dont be a troll Cali... i think im doing pretty good.

quote Originally posted by Electrathon: All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. The more we are not involved the worse that PFF will become. If nothing else the threads on this subject seen to be helping to keep the trolls under control. Some people are even trying to do better!

Sigh. I don't think this is about "good" and "evil". Acceptable and unacceptable, yes.

quote Originally posted by Lex: Sigh. I don't think this is about "good" and "evil". Acceptable and unacceptable, yes.

Possibly this is where differing views of the situation surface.

I do find that things that are acceptable to be generally good, and things that are unacceptable to be generally evil.

disallow more than 3 posts per username per thread.

I don't even know if people want other specific people banned because of a signing of said scrotumbag, or that it is just the most obvious excuse they can muster up. It's not that big of deal.. "It was in bad taste".. maybe it was, but still, it's not that big of deal. He will not grow up scarred because of this, nor will he remember this. And someone is bound to say "It's not just that, it's the behaviour overall".. and to which I will respond, "Ok, stop bringing up those 2 examples then"..

quote Originally posted by Lex: Let me ask you a question: Can anyone here you consider a troll "redeem" himself, or should they/we be just be banned?

Lex, Not sure what you're getting at with the "they/we". I've never had a beef with you and I don't base my opinions on the ratings bar. I don't think of you as a troll, I don't know why you got the negative bar and I'm not asking anyone to be banned. Just so you and I are straight on that fact.

Can someone redeem themselves? Absolutely but I think the redemption is proportional to what got them in trouble in the first place. I know some folks get a big red bar just for being in the wrong post at the wrong time. One post can do it, but does that make them a troll? That's probably going to be my story once this thread is all said and done so maybe I won't answer my own question. I think repeated disrespect for others shows a behaviour pattern that a simple "I'm Sorry" cannot fix. And BTW, I haven't seen anyone say "I'm Sorry" to Jordan who remains an 11-year-old boy, regardless of how others feel about his car or his father.

But what you're really asking is if donk can be redeemed, right? Sure, but what will be his redemption? Not for me to decide. Seems to me that he's just trying to act like a leashed tiger, rather than show any kind of understanding or acceptance as to why some of his remarks are unacceptable in this forum but that's just my take on it. If others accept this as his "rehabilitation" then it will be so. I never beleived he would willingly leave the forum just because I asked him to. I was hoping for some accountability from him that you might call step one in redemption. And I was calling the comment unacceptable. I know he wasn't the first to make the autograph comment but his defense of the comment only furthered it. It made it seem like this kind of behaviour is and should be commonplace on this forum. There are decent people here and there's no reason for us to accept it as commonplace. The point is that it is a big deal when this kind of thing happens because if it goes unchecked, the next round is only going to be worse.

I think we all need to be accountable for the negative ratings we receive. We can't please everybody all the time, that's for sure. Not even Cliff has plus 10 ratings. But I don't think it takes much more than a little respect for our forum and our fellow members to do a little better than a minus 5 rating. But what do I know? I don't have a ratings bar, and as to it's color when it arrives, well, I like to think it could go either way.

quote Originally posted by Electrathon: All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. The more we are not involved the worse that PFF will become.

Electrathon, thank you for reminding me why I was doing this. Like I said above, if I walk out of this with a negative rating, so be it. I'll tell you one thing, though - if I get to minus five, I won't be proud of it and I will graciously bow out, admitting I was wrong to pursue this and apologize to those involved. I'm obviously not going to make friends doing this, but maybe I can keep this place friendlier in the long run. Today was a long day for all of us. Lets just call it a night.

what are you trying to do?
i try not to get in to flame wars (but i sometimes slip)
the best way of avoiding them is to not partake in them.

this thread is as useful as this sign:

quote Originally posted by donk316: """the "sign my balls" was maybe bad taste but again, not everyone saw it that way.""" I tried to word it to sound diplomatic. I was trying to defuse the situation. way to be a f$#k and not drop it. Can you stop? 10,000 people are laughin at you because your a fool. "Can you do use a favor and go away? Please?" Your pissing me off now im TRYING to be good.

Donk,

You hit the nail on the head. I contemplated following you around the forum asking you about the "good taste / bad taste" comment, but I felt that know one deserves to be treated like that. There was no justificaton for that kind of action. Stinkin V8 has called you out on it and now you are getting upset.

Doesn't this sound kind of familiar? There is a member (2 to be precise) that were following another member around and "trolling" on his every post in every thread. Do you see now where this might tick someone off, even others that are not involved? It appears you have received a taste of your own "redbar" medicine.

I'm going to try to leave this thread alone now. I won't promise to stay away as I'll defend myself if necessary. People can be funny, but let's remember that this is a "FAMILY" forum. If there is something you don't want your children to read or see, maybe you shouldn't post it. I for one used to let my kids loook at PFF, not anymore. Hopefully we'll see a cleaner forum for all to enjoy.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I gave him a + because I don't see anything inherently bad in him. Sure he goes around and throws in odd comments, but who really cares. No one has lost any sleep over it.. And you gotta admit, the nitrous jet comments are hilarious..

Yeah Johnny, Pun chasing people around, trashing threads, being abusive, using vulgar language, being insulting, having an inapropriate sig that they posted every time they said something, and asking children to sign their scrotum are all just so hilarious .
On any given comment they post if you then go and look at the forum rules they have probably broken at least 2 of them easily and obviously don't care.
Thats pretty funny too.
So they have a plus from you. So there's one.

quote Originally posted by Lex: Songman said donk has changed. A couple of others have too. Out side of the fact that he has more negs than +'s, can you give a valid reason why he should be banned or leave? Can you cite a specific and recent example?

I did say donk had changed... Apparently he changed back.

And Johnny, we keep citing a couple of examples because you guys who keep defending the breaking of rules keep saying 'what has been done that is so bad?'... Yes, those are the two most recent examples. But you are right, it is not just those, it is an overall disregard for rules and other people.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Doug Chase: Fiero5, I think you missed my point when I said that one person alone cannot cause a flame war. One person alone cannot have an argument. There has to be somebody to argue with. Your bickering on the first few pages of this thread is a good example. I am now going to take my own advice and bow out of this thread. You may have the last word, if you wish. Despite what some of you believe, the majority of this forum is still flame free, and that's where I'm going. Bye! Doug [Edited for formatting. Gotta learn to use that Preview button.]

quote Originally posted by Fierochic88: Agreed completely, that's been my point for a while now.

I agree as well, but at what point does it become obvious that doing nothing, saying nothing and ignoring them only allows them to overun and ruin it even more? And I wouldn't say my discussing it here with others is bickering. If thats the case though, then your bickering too
Lately it seems that if we say nothing they get even more abusive, and if they say something aganist us and we ignore them and just don't reply back many may then think what they said might be true. But on the other hand it seems that if we do speak up at some point and try and defend ourselves then we are seen by some as helping to keep it all going.
What did someone say earlier? Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Jen, no insult here at all but I have to say again that I was suprised when I saw that you, a pretty respected member on this forum and a school teacher no less, thought Punishers sig was hilarious.
Is it possible that by your saying that to them, you as a highly regarded member with mostly green are in a way condoning what they and others are posting, even though you may not think or see it that way? And is that also worthy of a plus if you did.
If you had one of your students (or another staff member no less) walk over and see that sig on your screen while you were surfing on general chat, what site do you think that student/staff might feel you were on? I work at a school as well, and as a staff member I want to be able to surf PFF, at least the general chat and other "upper" sections, without worrying that someone might see something sick and/or vulgar like that sig or any of the other stupid images and things they like to post. Do you see what I mean at all?

[This message has been edited by Fiero5 (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Electrathon: Possibly this is where differing views of the situation surface. I do find that things that are acceptable to be generally good, and things that are unacceptable to be generally evil.

IMHO it's not that simple. If someone streaks nude threw the streets, most people would find this an unacceptable act. Hardly evil though. Trashing a thread is immature, unacceptable, and rude but not evil.

Secondly, one can not be condemned for "evil" thoughts. A Few members obviously did not find Pun's actions as outrageous and "evil" as the rest of you did. But guess what? It doesn't make any of them guilty.

I could fantasize about killing people 24/7 but as long as I don't actually kill anyone I am not guilty of murder. Like wise, someone may post something you find offensive, and you have a right to be upset, but don’t go around kicking the people who are NOT insulted. As long as they didn’t post the offensive material, they are not the ones you should be pointing fingers at.

Punisher said, of his own free will, that he saw a child who is a member of this forum on a child pornography video...

Whether he was kidding or not is not up to us to decide. We do know that he didn't see Jordan on any such film, but publicly stating that he did can make any reasonable person believe he is guilty of something that is considered criminal in this country.

That is not an opinion. Not a good vs evil battle.. Just a fact. Whether he watches child pornography or not, he said he did... And that is enough. It is not like dreaming of killing someone. It is like yelling bomb on a 747.

quote Originally posted by Songman: Punisher said, of his own free will, that he saw a child who is a member of this forum on a child pornography video... Whether he was kidding or not is not up to us to decide. We do know that he didn't see Jordan on any such film, but publicly stating that he did can make any reasonable person believe he is guilty of something that is considered criminal in this country. That is not an opinion. Not a good vs evil battle.. Just a fact. Whether he watches child pornography or not, he said he did... And that is enough. It is not like dreaming of killing someone. It is like yelling bomb on a 747.

Right. So Pun is who you have an issue with on that particular subject. Not the people who weren't phased by it.

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 10-27-2004).]

Absolutely...

I do find a lot of people protecting him though... There is nothing illegal about that. But I do still think it is wrong.

Kiddie **** is sick and has noughting to do with fieros, For anyone that thinks it's only a joke or funny or in bad taste so it's ok to do... Has serious issues.

I think if a person starts a thread they should have the ability to boot someone off there thread and have all of the trolls post deleted if he wanted to ..... Now that would be kind of cool.

My 2cents

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: Absolutely... I do find a lot of people protecting him though... There is nothing illegal about that. But I do still think it is wrong.

I am not sure anyone is "protecting" him; I just don't think some people were enraged by it.

The thing is, the internet if full of weirdo’s, perverts, and sick people in general. (I am not saying Shaun is one of them, as I wouldn't know)

It doesn't matter if you are on a Jesus forum, Fiero forum, or Care Bear forum. The fact is, sick people have access to all these sites. Do you want a perv to have access to pictures of your kid, his hobby, his name, your name, and address as well? It just doesn’t seem like a good idea.

Here is how I rationalize : If I know there are sick people on 'net and I post my kids pic's all over a forum and it turns into an issue, then I am partly responsible. I was the one who exposed my son to that 'element'. I would also consider what happened to be a minor wake up call, and I would be more cautious in the future.

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: I think if a person starts a thread they should have the ability to boot someone off there thread and have all of the trolls post deleted if he wanted to ..... Now that would be kind of cool. My 2cents

Thats a terrible, terrible idea.. Think about that for a moment. Why would you even want to start a thread then.. So you can make sure everyone agrees with you? You know how religious threads would turn out. Republican threads, etc, etc.. 7/8's of the threads on here would just include Toddster and fierobear...

Ummmmm.....remember this thread? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/024804-5.html It nearly went to hell in a hand basket. I was a newbe at the time and it gave me a sick feeling towards those who trash a very good thead. Yes, the thread still lives on but, is still hemmorging from the battles that were fought.

quote Originally posted by Lex: IMHO it's not that simple. If someone streaks nude threw the streets, most people would find this an unacceptable act. Hardly evil though. Trashing a thread is immature, unacceptable, and rude but not evil.

I agree, trashing a thread may not be evil, but it is still wrong and against forum rules. In Puns case, they go beyond doing just that (which again is wrong to begin with) and they go further with vulgar comments and an attitude that at least borders on evil in any sane world, whether it's on the internet or not.

quote Secondly, one can not be condemned for "evil" thoughts. A Few members obviously did not find Pun's actions as outrageous and "evil" as the rest of you did. But guess what? It doesn't make any of them guilty.

It doesn't make them guilty but it doesn't make them any better either.
If you were at a school after a sniper shooting at kids and when interviewed after you said that you really didn't see anything that bad with it, even though you were not the one guilty of pulling the trigger how do you think you would then be seen by the majority of the public and how you then would and should be treated after? An extreme example to what we are talking about here I agree but it makes my point as good as any other.

quote I could fantasize about killing people 24/7 but as long as I don't actually kill anyone I am not guilty of murder. Like wise, someone may post something you find offensive, and you have a right to be upset, but don’t go around kicking the people who are NOT insulted. As long as they didn’t post the offensive material, they are not the ones you should be pointing fingers at.

Yeah, the kids that did the killing at the columbine shooting fantasized about killing too...at first..

Bottom line is, anyone who thinks even joking about a child and pornography does not belong on this forum period, and anyone who agrees with them at all or doesn't think there is anything really wrong with that is just as bad and also doesn't belong on this forum, period. And that is not just my opinion either so if you don't agree then prepare to take on the very large majority of this forum as well as it's creator/moderator.

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: Bottom line is, anyone who thinks even joking about a child and pornography does not belong on this forum period

Ahh, the ol' Ban em for Thinkin theory.. Man, thank god no one can read my mind..

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: In Puns case, they go beyond doing just that (which again is wrong to begin with) and they go further with vulgar comments and an attitude that at least borders on evil in any sane world, whether it's on the internet or not.

No one is really disputing that. But that's really between between you, Pun, and Cliff. I am just not outraged by it. That doesn't mean I condone it either, btw.

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: It doesn't make them guilty but it doesn't make them any better either. If you were at a school after a sniper shooting at kids and when interviewed after you said that you really didn't see anything that bad with it, even though you were not the one guilty of pulling the trigger how do you think you would then be seen by the majority of the public and how you then would and should be treated after? An extreme example to what we are talking about here I agree but it makes my point as good as any other.

That example is null. If you are willing to compare it to a murder though, you give crediblity to my theory that a parent needs to use discretion on the internet.

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: Yeah, the kids that did the killing at the columbine shooting fantasized about killing too...at first..

That's not an agrument or a point. You can't control what people think. If we could, life would be much simpler.

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: Bottom line is, anyone who thinks even joking about a child and pornography does not belong on this forum period, and anyone who agrees with them at all or doesn't think there is anything really wrong with that is just as bad and also doesn't belong on this forum, period. And that is not just my opinion either so if you don't agree then prepare to take on the very large majority of this forum as well as it's creator/moderator.

Who came out and said they "agree" with Pun? Who said there wasn't anything "wrong" with it? I am just saying it didn't piss me off. It did make me see that posting pictures of my kid, his hobby, his name, and his address on the 'net is a bad idea.

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 10-27-2004).]

Where is the kiddie **** coming in here? Do you guys even remember what the picture was? That was NOT kiddie ****. It was certainly not in good taste, but it was just plain ****.

Get it right. There is a major difference between kiddie **** and just plain ****.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Where is the kiddie **** coming in here? Do you guys even remember what the picture was? That was NOT kiddie ****. It was certainly not in good taste, but it was just plain ****. Get it right. There is a major difference between kiddie **** and just plain ****.

This is also true. Wasn't it a picture of a kid watching ****?

No, it was a picture of Jordan (little Fiero5) kneeling on the floor with his new console (still wrapped up in the packaging), facing the camera, and there is a television set in the backgound. The original picture showed something on the tv screen ( I don't remember what), but a photoshopped version was posted that had a scene from a porno movie scene on the tv screen. That's it......there were no other changes in the picture, and it does not depict Jordan watching the tv set.

I do have the picture tucked away........

Mark

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Where is the kiddie **** coming in here? Do you guys even remember what the picture was? That was NOT kiddie ****. It was certainly not in good taste, but it was just plain ****. Get it right. There is a major difference between kiddie **** and just plain ****.

Thats it Mark, keep it up. Between your supporting a child being photoshopped into **** comment above and this beauty quoted below your just a pillar of the forum community now aren't you?

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Hey, Steve, we don't need anyone else other than you to instigate a few nasty comments. Even though this is a Jordan thread, I'm going to post a few nasty comments because of all the crap you throw in the other threads. First, there are quite a few people that are sick of you and your pictures. Yes, in this thread you can post as many pics as you like, and none of us care because this is a "Jordan" thread. But, you won't keep them here. So, why shouldn't the comments follow you? Second. Personally, I think that car needs to burn down. You have that "awsome duke" in your (Jordan's) car and I really hope that it's one of the recall motors that haven't been replaced. Please don't keep a fire extinguisher in the car. Third. I'm tired of your justifications and your lack of respect of other people's opinions. We have to respect you but you don't have to respect others. You push that car on us all in so may threads, but you don't care. Why should we care what you want? Why does this forum have to follow the "Rules of Steve Kelley"? Get over yourself and your fantasy. It's unhealthy. Fourth. Your Fiero, in my opinion, and it is MY opinion, sucks. I think that what you need to do is to show those kids at the school (the ones that check out this thread) a bunch of pictures of the other cars on the forum and actualy show them what good taste is. You have none, but I know thatyou will respond otherwise. Fifth. Buy Jordan some clothes. You dress him up to look like a miniature Mr. Spock and he doesn't deserve that. I feel sorry for him because he's only 10 and doesn't understand what's going on, and I'm sure you aren't telling him. Sixth. Tarrah is old enough for her own account. Don't let her use yours to post about how much she is ashamed of us, as she did in another thread. We don't need to be talked down to by a 16 year old through Daddy. Seventh. I'm going to get flamed for this, but I really don't care right now. I'm tired of Steve Kelley. I'm tired of Fiero5. I'm tired of Jordan's radioactive booger, as it's been called. I'm going to get a bunch of negatives, I'm sure, but it seems as if anything that is told to you doesn't sink in. So, for me, this is it. Yeah, I know, I said that in another post, but after you're whining and crying again it just boiled up one more time. Steve Kelley, you've been kicked out of clubs before, and even though I have absolutely no power here, and probably no respect after this, I wish you to go back to the 'other' Fiero forum as you promised you'd do. And take your cars with you. Mark