i found a place where we can have out meetings!!!

quote Originally posted by TaurusThug: bad person... your not supposed to releaes in game screen shots of HL2 yet...

My bad

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: There isn't one member on here that doesn't have some red, so no one is liked by everyone LOL

I believe the bottom line problems are:

1. Diversity. We are an extremely diverse group of people, held together by the thinnest thread - we like the same car. We have all different races, colors, religions, age groups, countries of origin, political affiliation, preference of engine type, and what we like to do with our cars (daily driver, show, race, tune, drag, autocross, hanger queen, collect, etc.). Diversity can be a great thing, but when you bring that diverse of a group together, you're bound to have friction.

2. Rubberneckers. For the same reason people will slow down on the freeway to look at a wreck, when two or more people start arguing, others stop by to see what all the commotion is about. The difference here is, we aren't just passing by, we can join the fray simply by typing. Everyone has an opinion, and most people like to express it. Add diversity of opinion and the annonymity of the internet, and things can heat up. A good rule of thumb might be "if you wouldn't say it to their face, don't type it here". Yeah, I know, I'm working on that myself. None of us are immune.

What's the solution? I don't know. The above reasons are part of human nature, and that's tough to break.

yes we are a VERY diverse group and there are all ages, race, etc... but that does not give a few the right to go across the board and continue to throw a lit match into a cargo ship from china full of fireworks does it?

quote Originally posted by TaurusThug: yes we are a VERY diverse group and there are all ages, race, etc... but that does not give a few the right to go across the board and continue to throw a lit match into a cargo ship from china full of fireworks does it?

Nope. It's like I said, here is what I think is the root of the problem, but I don't have a solution. That's what a discussion like this is for.

Being a relative nebie I am a little shocked at the blatent attacks and flame wars that start over simple, simple things. I by nature am not a combative person, but have on occasion joined the band wagon unfortunately. As far as moderating ourselves we all need to step up to the plate and as soon as one person types "says" something that generally is considered derogatory by the general forum members, speak up. A simple suggestion of "is that really something to be mad about?" "What makes this a personal attack to respond so negatively?" "Flames are not what we want" somthing along these lines. This way it gives the flamers a chance to step back and realize that maybe what they are "saying" is not really so necessary or could be worded differently. I am aware that this may be laughed at or boo hooed, but simply reminding others of our obligation to the family atmosphere here is our RESPONSOBILITY and DUTY to each other. I have already benefitted from information that is readily available to all of us on several occasions to get my car running. So thanks to those who have contributed in such a positive manner. I feel that if you have contributed to the forum in the betterment of fieros then you deserve +s if you have given falty or misleading information concerning Fieros then you deserve -s after all this is a FIERO forum not an opinion forum. Although opinions are like bung cavities, everyone has one and here is mine.

As a suggestion to help decrease the flames and trolls, I hate to suggest being a RAT, but sending cliff a thread with flames so that he can delete it or trash it immediately might encourage flamers and trolls to keep O/T material in the O/T. I am sure that a pattern will evolve as to whom the most guilty contributors of flames and trolls might be and from there let cliff decide to ban or not ban. my 2C, soapbox, MHO. etc. you get the drift.

Galen

even the uber n00bs are tired of it. but what he has said could work... ive tried it a few times and i think everytime so far that IVE done it the thread has gone to become a 5 page flame fest... i say that whenever we see one happening we say something as stalen88GT just said and just let it be known that its probably not necasary. ive noticed that this is becoming as flame intensive as a civic forum and i haven had my Nomex suit off in WEEKS!!! lol

Have any of you been to other Forum say the 3800 Tech Forum or Club GP? You think members get called out here and flamed, go other there post something without proof, they will call you out in the first post. This is nothing compared to what they have going on in there Forums yet you dont see all this childish posting back and forth. Most of the post that go back and forth like this one have in it the same 5 or 6 ppl that go at it back and forth till the Thread hits the can. I dont understand it unless this is just a way of entertainment, which it could be cause I have done it before.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: When things seem to be getting out of hand, we make a stand. Not necessarily a bad thing - if we don't stand up to those who are getting out of line, it's like we are condoning their behavior. But it can result in a flame war. It goes back the the human nature thing. We all have opinions, and want to express them. The forum is our community, and since it is "self-moderating", we want to police the neighborhood. Solution? I don't know.

You hit the nail right on the head, fierobear. That's the way I feel.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Have any of you been to other Forum say the 3800 Tech Forum or Club GP? You think members get called out here and flamed, go other there post something without proof, they will call you out in the first post. This is nothing compared to what they have going on in there Forums yet you dont see all this childish posting back and forth. Most of the post that go back and forth like this one have in it the same 5 or 6 ppl that go at it back and forth till the Thread hits the can. I dont understand it unless this is just a way of entertainment, which it could be cause I have done it before.

You might want to go back and re-read Cliff's post.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: (excerpt from page 2 post) To be honest, I don't care how bad it is on other forums. I don't care how "civilized" PFF is compared to other forums. I don't care how filthy it is in other people's houses, I want our house to be clean.

edit: pur typen skilz

[This message has been edited by WingNut - MD (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by WingNut - MD: Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: (excerpt from page 2 post) I want our house to be clean.

His actions (or more accurately, inactions) seem to state otherwise.

LOL--If I could only read--Would make life so much easier

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: His actions (or more accurately, inactions) seem to state otherwise.

I think you are missing the point. Cliff wants this to be a self-moderating Forum. He wants us to police ourselves, and for the most part we do. That is why most of these so called "society's" have sprung up. Everyone is entitiled to their opinion, and it appears people are banding together to have strength in numbers. People are now labeling themselvs the "reds" the "greens" and the "whites." There is also the "no bars." OMG my head hurts. I have come up with a new line in my sig.
www.cardomain.com/id/wingnutmd --- "Peg" --- 1985 GT - THE FORGOTTON GT!

Just a member of PFF, not associated with any Brigade or Syndicate. Just tired of the BS!

edit to add sig, DOH

[This message has been edited by WingNut - MD (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by WingNut - MD: I think you are missing the point. Cliff wants this to be a self-moderating Forum. He wants us to police ourselves, and for the most part we do.

Two hundred pokes with two hundred dry, brittle twigs will not stop a thug from doing whatever he wants to do to whomever he wants to do it.

And this forum is a perfect case in point.

Cliff's got the 'auto-ban' percentages set so leniently that even when the majority votes, the offender still remains.
The system would work very well if Cliff sharpened the sticks a bit and set it so less of a majority than is currently set was required for us to take out the trash.

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: Cliff's got the 'auto-ban' percentages set so leniently that even when the majority votes, the offender still remains. The system would work very well if Cliff sharpened the sticks a bit and set it so less of a majority than is currently set was required for us to take out the trash.

May I remind you that the way it is set now, was done by popular vote? It used to be different, but then people were all over me because they thought people got banned too quickly. So it was changed. And now you are complaining that people are not banned quickly enough? See, that's my problem right there. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

No matter how you cut or slice it, the responisbility to ban someone for bad behavior is in the hands of the members (and it wasn't always like hat, but again, the rating system was installed by popular vote). If the members will not vote, or will vote a "bad" members positive, then don't come crying to my about it. I'm as disappointed as you are that certain members are not banned yet. So don't give me that crap *I* am the one being inactive here. If anything, I work my butt off to provide the members with tools to make that kind of decisions themselves. I work my butt off to keep this forum as clean as possible.

Then why is 'the system' failing? The only grey area inherent in it is where that percentage lever of + vs. - is set. We can't give "maybe positives" or "a little bit negatives" - OUR part of it is black and white.

If there are still too many troublemakers around here, then it's in obvious need of adjustment. There's no 'adjustment' available in our end of things.

Let's just start an alliance with select members .....and we will vote the bad people off the island (forum)

Well it works on TV

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98 3800SC, Getrag 5sp. only one around Austin Texas !

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: So don't give me that crap *I* am the one being inactive here. If anything, I work my butt off to provide the members with tools to make that kind of decisions themselves. I work my butt off to keep this forum as clean as possible.

Oh, oh. Dude,. You've piss'd off the wrong guy now

I'm pissed that he won't even help us try to keep his own house clean.

What more are we supposed to do to clean it? We're USING the tools he gives us to do the best job we can.

Hell, evidently Cliff wants the trolls here since he doesn't seem interested in solving a very small number of very OBVIOUS problems.

If the host of the party doesn't care if a guest in his house is taking a big ol' dump right in the middle of the living room rug, then it doesn't reflect on the other partygoers - it reflects on the host.

But hey, y'know, if he doesn't care, then I guess neither should I.

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by donk316: the **** mag thing is an old reference to something that happened along time ago and was appologized for by said parties. the "sign my balls" was maybe bad taste but again, not everyone saw it that way.

Wow, who cares if ANYONE didn't find this in bad taste?? I can't believe this mentality.. It's not about how other forum members feel about this statement, it matters that somone is saying this garbage to an 11-year-old. Right now, it matters that YOU think it's OK. And, BTW, this kid has had a lot of these kinds of comments directed at him. I don't really care for the car, and I don't know anything about Fiero5 but I can't beleive that people would direct this kind of attack towards the young man because they don't like his car or don't like his dad. Would you walk up to an 11-year-old on the street and say this kind of thing? How'd you like it if some so-called adult walked up to YOU when you were 11 and said this kind of thing? Dork316, this is NOT about your right to free speech and you are a fool if you believe that. It's about how your right to "free speech when you're hiding behind your computer monitor" affects others. Do you pull this kind of garbage in real life?

quote The reason "we" are still around is because , believe it or not, not everyone sees things like a few of you. Do you know the countless PMs myself, Lex, Pun <for instance> get from other members who will remain nameless saying "thank you" or "good job" or the one i get alot of personally "you made me laugh" and the like....it happens because this "ratings elitist mentality" has literally scared people into not posting how they feel in fear of a mob.

At this point in time your bar is at minus four for 284 ratings with 1881 posts in 19 months. Maybe my math is wrong here, but on a scale of -10 to +10, that means 30% of your ratings were positive. 85 people think you're useful around here, 199 do not. You seem to think you're catering to some demographic that need guys like you to stand up for them. If that's true then you picked a losing side but somehow, you dismiss the opinion of 199 people with the idea that they are part of some elitist band of brainwashed, aftermarket-worshipping lemmings. That's a pretty easy way to let yourself off the hook but did you ever wonder why 199 people think you're useless?

I realize this is bad form, flaming you on a "stop the flaming" topic and yeah - I'm picking on you specifically, dork316, because you are the only person who has posted in this thread that I have ever given a negative to, and that was for your thread about what you don't like about the forum. Go ahead and reciprocate, by the time my ratings bar shows up you will be long gone and it won't matter.

I'll let my name stand with Cliff, Archie, Songman, TaurusThug and the rest of them. I'm sick of the garbage and if I don't say something about it then I'm part of the problem. Why don't you take 199 hints and just go away?

EDIT - correcting my math.

[This message has been edited by Stinkin_V8 (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8: Wow, who cares if ANYONE didn't find this in bad taste?? I can't believe this mentality.. It's not about how other forum members feel about this statement, it matters that somone is saying this garbage to an 11-year-old. Right now, it matters that YOU think it's OK. And, BTW, this kid has had a lot of these kinds of comments directed at him. I don't really care for the car, and I don't know anything about Fiero5 but I can't beleive that people would direct this kind of attack towards the young man because they don't like his car or don't like his dad. Would you walk up to an 11-year-old on the street and say this kind of thing? How'd you like it if some so-called adult walked up to YOU when you were 11 and said this kind of thing? Dork316, this is NOT about your right to free speech and you are a fool if you believe that. It's about how your right to "free speech when you're hiding behind your computer monitor" affects others. Do you pull this kind of garbage in real life? At this point in time your bar is at minus four for 284 ratings with 1881 posts in 19 months. Maybe my math is wrong here, but on a scale of -10 to +10, that means 30% of your ratings were positive. 85 people think you're useful around here, 199 do not. You seem to think you're catering to some demographic that need guys like you to stand up for them. You picked a losing side yet somehow, you dismiss the opinion of 199 people with the idea that they are part of some elitist band of brainwashed, aftermarket-worshipping lemmings. That's a pretty easy way to let yourself off the hook but did you ever wonder why 199 people think you're useless? I realize this is bad form, flaming you on a "stop the flaming" topic and yeah - I'm picking on you specifically, dork316, because you are the only person who has posted in this thread that I have ever given a negative to, and that was for your thread about what you don't like about the forum. Go ahead and reciprocate, by the time my ratings bar shows up you will be long gone and it won't matter. I'll let my name stand with Cliff, Archie, Songman, TaurusThug and the rest of them. I'm sick of the garbage and if I don't say something about it then I'm part of the problem. Why don't you take 199 hints and just go away? EDIT - correcting my math.

Maybe i wasnt making myself clear...

You know what? after typing a long drawn answer to your off the wall rant i decided to erase it because no matter what i say to you, your going to draw your own conclusions... I think your barking up the wrong tree and have mis understood my comment but whatever.

Thanks for the comment.

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Member of the Redbar Brigade

Why have i allways been in a gang?!

[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: Yes it does, too bad you have no clue how to say it or mean it. In your case the A would represent the first letter in another word.

You could have just let that go. I thought you wanted to stop the flamings?

quote Originally posted by donk316: Maybe i wasnt making myself clear... You know what? after typing a long drawn answer to your off the wall rant i decided to erase it because no matter what i say to you, your going to draw your own conclusions... I think your barking up the wrong tree and have mis understood my comment but whatever. Thanks for the comment.

You've made yourself perfectly clear and no, I'm not barking up the wrong tree. There are other trees but like I said, you're the only one in this thread who ever got a neg from me. I figure that's fair warning. I'm making a stand with some of the others and you happened to be the one nearest. Sorry to single you out.

Anyone who says that kind of thing about anyone else, let alone an 11-year-old should be ashamed of themselves, especially after it's been said repeatedly that the 11-year-old reads this forum. I realize you didn't say it if that's why you think I'm barking up the wrong tree. Standing up for it being said is just as disgraceful - more so from someone who says they have 2 kids. 199 people want you to go away, could you help us out?

quote Originally posted by donk316: ... I think your barking up the wrong tree and have mis understood my comment but whatever. Thanks for the comment.

quote Originally posted by donk316: the **** mag thing is an old reference to something that happened along time ago and was appologized for by said parties. the "sign my balls" was maybe bad taste but again, not everyone saw it that way.

I guess I misunderstand your comment.

Where, when referencing a child signing a persons scrotum, would it be in good taste?

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: Yes it does, too bad you have no clue how to say it or mean it. In your case the A would represent the first letter in another word.

i don't have anything i want to apologize for

Maybe we could edit THE OVERSIZED PIC!

Thank you.

I enjoy this forum...... Sometimes there's trolls... But the best way to defeat trolls is ignore them, This really really ticks a troll off, No matter how much the troll begs for attention.... Don't give him none, Soon or later the troll will 1. Go away or 2. get his own Rear end into hot water and end up getting more negs because of the annoyance.

Usaully it's extreamly hard to ignore a troll because there like a gnat that keeps buzzing around your ear. At times these troll gnats hang in swarms and have sometype of hive collective called a brigade or something. In time these gnats drop like flies because they get stuck in the wrong web LOL. But never never shake the hive nest or they will buzz all over your nice threads until there not pleasent to read anymore and gets thrown away.... Kind of like when a fly lands on your food.

fortuantly we have types of bug defense called a rating system. Usually when one is zapped with a bad neg he takes it back to his hive and infects the rest with a disease called trolly yet syndrome This disease spreads through out the collective until all is infected with the flashing red bar.

But the only way to destroy a hive of troll gnats is kill off the queen troll gnat, The rest will end up doing something stupid and vanish in time.

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[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by margaritaz: i don't have anything i want to apologize for

And how did I know you would say that?

One person alone cannot cause a flame war.

A few people on here have figured out how to end the flaming. Unfortunately it's very few.

quote Originally posted by donk316 on page 1: The only thing that will work as far as flame wars and so on is to: IGNORE IT AND DO NOT POST IN REGARDS TO IT.

quote Originally posted by Songman on page 2: I'm going to stop now... Enjoy them. I'm done with this..

quote Originally posted by Raydar on page 2: And he chose not to answer me. At all. No problem.

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl on page 3: Sometimes there's trolls... But the best way to defeat trolls is ignore them

I'd like to address a couple other things, too.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Cliff--I think this will be a soluction to keep everyone from fighting back and forth. Make it were if a member doesnt want to see what another post, then have it were that member can ignore them.

I have an even better idea. If a member A doesn't want to see posts by member B, then member A can simply not read member B's posts. Why should Cliff spend his time adding functionality to the forum to save somebody the trouble of ignoring a post?

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: I'm pissed that he won't even help us try to keep his own house clean.

The impression I get from Cliff's post above is that he has tried to help. (Some of) the members asked for a rating system, Cliff provided it. (Some of) the members thought banning was too easy, Cliff made it harder. Now (some of) the members think that banning is too hard so they want Cliff to change it again and Cliff is getting tired of it. He will never be able to please everybody. I personally applaud his hands off approach to the Forum.

quote What more are we supposed to do to clean it? We're USING the tools he gives us to do the best job we can.

It's really simple. If everybody who says they're tired of flame wars would stay out of flame wars, then there wouldn't be any.

As for "offensive" content that may get posted, here are a few suggestions. First remember that everybody has different standards of decency and then:

1) Reply with something like, "Member A, while that comment / image / whatever may be acceptable in certain situations, I don't feel it's appropriate here because _____. Could you please refrain from posting such content? Thank you."

2) Ignore it.

3) Send Cliff an email with a link to the thread and politely inform him that Member A is posting content that may be in violation of the rules.

4) Rate Member A negatively if you feel it is warranted

Before everybody decrees that this forum is going to hell in a handbasket, you should all take a step back and look around. If you do, I think you'll find that the vast majority of posts on here are not flames, and the vast majority of members do not participate in flame wars. You may also find that the flame wars are pretty easy to avoid.

On the other hand, maybe the fix is as simple as adding a line to a signature file.

Doug

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: You could have just let that go. I thought you wanted to stop the flamings?

Only flames against himself.

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Member of the Central Cartel, the Switzerland of PFF.
Bringing Moderation to the Red Green Show.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Maybe we could edit THE OVERSIZED PIC! Thank you.

PLEASE!

I'm tired of scrolling!

quote Originally posted by Doug Chase:

Good post. Plus to you.

Edit: Resize the pic please.

[This message has been edited by Unsafe At Any Speed (edited 10-25-2004).]

I did edit my pic but I can't resize the one that was quoted on this page.
And unsafe, give it a rest.

quote Originally posted by Archie: I believe that the reason these trolls keep getting enough positives to stay on the forum is because everyonce in a while they go after someone like you who is not necessarily liked by everyone. For example. when Pun went after Songman, we almost had enough of a swell against him to get him out of here. A few days later he was able to move back towards the positive by going after you. So AFAIAC, this isn't about you. This is about getting rid of these trolls once & for all. Archie

I agree with this post 100%. Steve you and I have had our words, but please don't take this as an insult. It takes 2 to have a flame war and you are always the first person to reply to whatever crap has been posted by whoever. Then you'll post hjow hard done by you are.

Please, read Archies post a few times and take some advice.

I believe there is one word that can pretty much sum up the problems brought up in this post...

e·go n., pl. e·gos. 1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves. 2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality. 3.a. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit. b. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.

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Tim
Red 88 Formula Auto 2.8 100K+ Miles

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence!

quote Archie said: Now [Cliff] give me your password for about 15 minutes & I'll fix it for you.

I'll fix it in 10.

hmmm maybe its the time of the season but i know if i was the average person id be kinda afraid of opening my mouth right now...just look at other posts... a person wants to see a fiero race a import...BAM flame?!? its crazy now a days! most of ya guys know why i came here...for a friendly environment so i could meet new people that love fieros... i found that back in the day but when it started getting bad, i left ...came back later,thought it was all good, but apperantly not...its kinda hard to leave tho cuz people (like me) need this forum for tech support (and the suppoort is very good I might add) on there cars, fun stories and just helping when ya can. (I got more free stuff on the way btw lol) But like I said its already at General...what happens if the flame gets into Tech? then where would I go? People would ask a question and get ramed for it? thats not right...

My 0.02

Brad