Hey, I feel sorry for those got caught up in the housing craze because they thought attaining a house seemed impossible and wanted to catch it before it was too late, but for some others a lot of people were buying 1/2 million dollor houses thinking they could afford them without any guilt knowing darn well they couldn't afford them. The house flippers share part of the blame, but the brokers created designer loans and a lot of people bought them thinking that the ARMs would continue to stay low. During this period the stock market was on the freeze and now it's flip-flop. So switching your words, "And that means so much to these people; boom, bust in stock market Beset by Eron/World Com/Anderson implosions." As with anything and everything...there is a limit.
Jumping into the housing market was good for some (if they got in early) and stayed put. For some, the 400k home wasn't good enough so 900k home seemed better and low ARM loans was running amuck. As for stocks, it's about the same. Finding solid good companies with good earning is far better vs. those w/o. If you can't sleep at night because of the stock raising...then it's best to sell it and hold.
As for the stock "RIMM" [Research in Motion], they make the items most business people use, "The Black Berry" or Crack Berry, hehe.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 10-07-2007).]
Not every one is to blame. Only the idiots who tried to live above their means are to blame. No one forced them to do anything.
The economy is doing fine. Its just weeding it self of the idiots who don't know how to manage money and live with what they can afford. They willingly signed that dotted line. Now the market is sweeping up the trash.
Just because people are doing poorly doesn't mean the economy is screwed.
They were just trying to buy a more reasonable home, and the other guy, an investment property.
In June of 2004, Dave Gustafson took time off from his job as a supermarket produce manager, and the family headed to Arizona to visit relatives. The buzz of construction - and word of low home prices - convinced them to have a look around. Dave and his wife Maryann liked what they saw. Back in California, they had contented themselves with less than 1,100 square feet. But salesmen here showed them floor plans that would give them 2 1/2 times the space for half the price. The place they liked the best was a subdivision called the Villages, a crescent-shaped warren of streets cradling a golf course, quickly filling with sand-colored stucco homes. The local schools had a good reputation. It was affordable. There was an extra-big lot on a cul-de-sac, with enough room in back for a pool. "The sales person was saying that they (homes) were going up $1,000 a week," Dave Gustafson recalls. "So when we came to look, we signed right away." Builders made it easy. A downpayment of $2,000 to $5,000 was all it took to get started. Buyers could borrow at low teaser rates, requiring payments of nothing more than interest. As promised, home prices were going up faster than the houses themselves. By the time the family's new home - a two-story model called The Starling with a cathedral ceiling in the living room - was completed the next spring, the $179,000 base price had climbed to $220,000. "We were making money while we were waiting," Dave says. The Gustafsons picked out Corian counters and maple licorice-finished cabinets at the builder's design center, and opted for a pool and a whirlpool bath, adding more than $50,000 to their loan. The interest rate was fixed for only two years, but they didn't worry. With prices rising so fast, they could always refinance. And in five or six years, the Gustafsons figured, they'd sell for $500,000 and downsize. They hung a plaque over the dining table: "Home is Where Your Story Begins." They were hardly the only ones feeling optimistic. Kris Rowberry was ecstatic when the value of his home in nearby Gilbert started to take off. So he bought a second one in the Villages as an investment. "I was thinking, man, if I could have 10 properties, I could just kind of retire ... and kick back and live off the income," says Rowberry, a nuclear safety inspector. But the speculative mind-set confounded buyers like retiree David Pickering. When Pickering and his wife left Pennsylvania in August of 2004 for a new home in the Villages, they'd never heard of interest-only loans and the idea of buying a home as an investment hadn't occurred to them. They were simply buying a place to live, hopefully for a good, long time. Around them, though, such notions began to look very old-fashioned.
. The Gustafsons picked out Corian counters and maple licorice-finished cabinets at the builder's design center, and opted for a pool and a whirlpool bath, adding more than $50,000 to their loan. The interest rate was fixed for only two years, but they didn't worry. With prices rising so fast, they could always refinance. And in five or six years, the Gustafsons figured, they'd sell for $500,000 and downsize.
No, they were friggin idiots! You can't see the stupidity here? C'mon! You're an idiot if you think the the housing prices were going to continue to skyrocket!
Originally posted by aceman: No, they were friggin idiots! You can't see the stupidity here? C'mon! You're an idiot if you think the the housing prices were going to continue to skyrocket!
I never said I thought the housing prices were going to continue to go up, and these people didn’t think they would continue to SKYROCKET, just keep going up. that was Todd.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-07-2007).]
I didn't say you said that. You posted an article showing friggin idiots and asked if they were idiots. Those idiots get no compassion for not thinking something through. "Oh, in 5 years I can sell my house for 2.5X what I bought it for. I think I'll add in $50,000 for pretty counter tops and a whirlpool tub I'll rarely use." Yes, I can go to a casino and triple my money, but it's not likely.
They were spending money they didn't have and knew they weren't going to have. Do you have compassion for the idiot that makes $30,000 and gets a Visa with a $10,000 credit limit and maxes it out? I don't and I bet you don't either.
I didn't say you said that. You posted an article showing friggin idiots and asked if they were idiots. Those idiots get no compassion for not thinking something through. "Oh, in 5 years I can sell my house for 2.5X what I bought it for. I think I'll add in $50,000 for pretty counter tops and a whirlpool tub I'll rarely use." Yes, I can go to a casino and triple my money, but it's not likely.
They were spending money they didn't have and knew they weren't going to have. Do you have compassion for the idiot that makes $30,000 and gets a Visa with a $10,000 credit limit and maxes it out? I don't and I bet you don't either.
From the article.
"Lenders never said no," says Jay Butler, director of realty studies at Arizona State University. "Nobody expected this to continue, but they hoped it would just long enough to get out of it - and they were caught up in the whirlpool."
So now the lenders are in trouble, but now the government will help them out but not the home owners. Why?
These were not all uneducated people Ace. They weren’t idiots they were just victims of the boom. Even though they bought cheep now their homes are not worth what they paid because of all the bankruptcies around them. The housing prices fell even more.
"You drive around this subdivision and there are 'For Sale' signs everywhere," she says. The problems become self-perpetuating. Researchers say that each foreclosure chips away at neighbors' property values. But foreclosures here compound a larger problem. Builders continue adding homes to the market at reduced prices. Investors are trying to sell. Lenders are seeking buyers for foreclosures. Homeowners whose financial troubles might be solved by selling can't compete, real estate agents say.
Or this guy, ya he is an idiot.
"I was thinking, man, if I could have 10 properties, I could just kind of retire ... and kick back and live off the income," says Rowberry, a nuclear safety inspector.
Makes you feel real safe when we have idiots like this inspecting our nuclear facilities. He is an educated man Ace, like you.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
They were friggin idiots! Hmmm, If you cut out all "luxuries", never eat out and continue to drive that 10 year old car for another 10 years, you can afford this loan......And I'm suppose to believe this guy is a victim, not an idiot?????????????
Mr Pretty Counters and Ms Whirlpool uprooted from California to Arizona to chase this dream. About 160 years ago, we had people selling off everything to go to California to strike it rich in gold. Most didn't. They were victims? Or idiots?
The article is layed out to show these fools as victims. No, a person with common sense can see they're idiots.
What about all the people who didn’t credit themselves to bankruptcy? And lost all the equity in their homes they bought before the housing boom.
Now they have a home worth less than they paid for it because of all the bankruptcies going on around them, yet they did it right. Are they not victims too?
Is your home paid for Ace?
If not you may be in the same boat as those people, your home may loose all that equity you tried to build up.
Now are you a victim?
The people who did it right and are still loosing what they worked hard for, they are loosing to.
This works against all of us. All these bankruptcies are deflating the values of even those who bought before the housing boom.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Read my post. I layed my housing example out there for you to read.
Bought for $105,000 Owe: $95,000 Owe: $10,000 (Home Improvement loan. Replaced sewer, carpet and put in egress window) Value 2 yrs ago: $225,000 Value today: $190,000 Probably Sale price: $175,000 Real Estate Fees: $10,000
I'm still walking away with $50,000-$75,000. I bought a home, not an investment property. I stayed in my home for 8 years and I'm selling only because I moved 400 miles away.
Houses are not losing their values to those that bought smartly. Most people in a NORMAL housing market are going to "lose" money if they're only in a house for 1-3 years.
To make it really clear.........I could sell my $190,000 market valued house for $130,000 and still walk away with cash in my pocket!!!!!!!!! These people that bought when the market was high maybe should have rented and waited for the market to adjust.
[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 10-07-2007).]
So if I set a trap... and you walk into it and it utterly destroys your life.... then it's your fault for walking into it?
If you walk into a trap...and it utterly destroys your life...and I know how to avoid the trap...am I financially responsible to get you out of that trap?
Is it a "trap" if you didn't read all papers you willing signed? Is it a "trap" if can see it right in front of you and agree to walk into it. Yes you are an idiot and it is your fault if you walk in to a "trap" you know is there. But this wasn't a trap now was it.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Dow and the S&P 500 surged to all-time highs on Friday after a solid employment report rekindled optimism about the U.S. economy and corporate profits.
The economy added more jobs in September than economists had expected, while an earlier estimate of job losses in August was revised to a gain, quashing fears of recession.
So as I have said before an education does not make for common sense.
Steve, when did we debate this point........EVER?
The only time I think we've gotten close to this debate is when I tell you that you didn't understand an article you posted on something yet lacked common sense by continuing to argue about something or some article you don't understand. --------------------------------------------------------
Ever see me argue with you about a welding question? Nope! I'd lack common sense to argue with you about something you know well and I barely know.
Ever see me argue with you about an auto repair question? Nope! I'd lack common sense to argue with you about something you know well and I barely know.
Education does not = common sense.
Lack of education does not = lack of common sense.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Dow and the S&P 500 surged to all-time highs on Friday after a solid employment report rekindled optimism about the U.S. economy and corporate profits.
The economy added more jobs in September than economists had expected, while an earlier estimate of job losses in August was revised to a gain, quashing fears of recession.
Interesting, these economists play a huge part in the confidence the populous has in the system which is what drives the entire market and money system. The way I see it they had a huge part in this down turn of the market, but they just say ooops we made a correction, me bad.
Watch, this will keep going on through the next election cycle.
So you fellas are condoning / defending the trappers methods and are blaming the victim?
Just to make sure you are aware, the motivation was to get the sale and make that buck. The trap was a carefully designed tool, created spacifically for the purpose of increasing the odds of failure for the victim.
The trappers and those who designed the traps could care less about those they hurt (or rather were hurt) and the damage it caused.
Condone it or not, say nay all you want or not, deny the fact that our economy is in ruin or not... regardless... we are ALL paying for this tactic.
The situation here is so dire that even the EU is talking about it.
-------------------------------------------------- European officials fret over U.S. economy EU finance ministers to kick off two days of meetings. Key issues: the impact of slowing U.S. growth and the weak dollar.
"Last week, the employers federation BusinessEurope said that, by crossing 1.40 against the U.S. dollar, the euro exchange rate had reached a "pain threshold" for European companies. It also complained the euro was appreciating too fast against the Chinese yuan and Japanese yen."
Victims or who exactly? Themselves. There is no trap. But some people don't know anything but how to be a victim so they do all they can to make it look like there is a trap to fall into. Victims of there own stupidity. If they had bother to educate them self and read what they willingly signed they wouldn't have ruined them self. But of course its every one else's fault.
Believe what you want, lay blame where ever you like, the bottom line is... We ALL are victims of this shaddy tactic. You may not be suffering, you may not be feeling the pinch, you may not feel there is a problem but the writing remains clearly wtitten on the wall in big bold letters... the U.S. dollar is running off a cliff.
Our dollar is very weak yet many here seem to believe that beacuse the dow is at record levels and their portfolios are showing gains it means that everything is just fine fine fine... Thats great, I'm glad you have something good to share with the community but do you see that "our dollar" is growing less valueable, that "your dollar" is buying less?
It is devaluing so rapidly that it is beginning to effect the rest of the worlds ability to do business. <insert speculation here> as to how this will pan out. I honestly dont know but I do know that a weak dollar means less value, means less dollars can be spent on a vaiety of necessities.
I have to think 84bill is more or less right. We may not all be victims of this subprime housing stupidity directly, but all of us are certainly going to pay for it. Add in the strong possibility of a Democrat president and Congress giving us higher taxes, and all I see in the next two or three years is a recession that will go into economics textbooks as an example of what goes wrong.
Of course, all of this is merely proof of the one rule that governs everything in life: You can't get something for nothing. Everything has a price, and we have decided that we don't want to plan for paying that price. We want it all to be easy, with the effort and results to be without pain. That simply isn't going to be true, ever.
None of this changes the need for responsibility. If you don't have sense enough to manage your money, someone is going to take advantage of you, or you will at the very least pay heavily for your lack of planning.
But back to the poor sods that got tricked into going with an ARM, or just simply saw an ARM as way to get a brief taste of that rapidly fading dream, owning a home in America. What should happen to them? Some here basically all but say that they should suffer the most severe consequences of their choice, showing no compassion or mercy toward these people that should have been told more clearly up front just what risk ARMs entail. No compassion, no mercy, make them pay for their mistake the rest of their lives. JazzMan
Tricked? They could have maybe read what they were signing, maybe. And why should I have compassion or mercy for some one who did something willingly. No one forced them to live beyond their means no one. They weren't tricked or trapped. They were stupid and should pay for their bad choice. Again they did this to them self.
Why did these fools have to be told what an ARM was? Shouldn't they have asked? Shouldn't they know full well what exactly it is they are about to sign for? More so when its to the tune of a few hundred thousand plus interest?
I don't feel sorry for people who are "victims" of their own willing actions.
So you fellas are condoning / defending the trappers methods and are blaming the victim?
Just to make sure you are aware, the motivation was to get the sale and make that buck. The trap was a carefully designed tool, created spacifically for the purpose of increasing the odds of failure for the victim.
I need to rephrase the above... The trap most likely wasnt designed to increase the odds for failure.. I dont believe that was the true intent. I believe the intention was to milk the victim of cash at a later date. I believe there was careful consideration for failure it in a very high roll over market. In short, a bank can flip a house very easily and quickly and make even more money on that same property. Banks make the loans, created the trap, bait it with sweets and one banker in particular... one man... can adjust those interest rates. That means money money money... that awesome green leafy wonderfully liberating gushing green stuff!!!! Umm.. Damn nice plan.. to bad... seems it backfired on everyone. More so those who didnt make anything off the trap.
Bill, there was no frikken trap. These people aren't victims. They're idiots. Stop grabbing onto a fairy tale concept that has no merit. These people had EVERYTHING layed out in front of them. A bank doesn't want a house. A bank makes more money to have the loan go full term. No trap! Just stupidity!
Ace.. believe it wasnt a trap... I dont give a rats behind or two shakes of it's tail. NO ONE goes into a deal thinking I want to lose my house and everything I paid for. Not one person!
Theres this concept of a "good faith" relationship between lenders (banks) and the people they loan their money to. A bank wont just hand anyone a several hundred thousand dollar mortgage loan if they felt they couldnt get repaid. It would be insane to believe otherwise.
The trap as it were, Is the fact that it appears there is a strong desire to avoid hot, cold, wind, rain, snow and sunshine. Seems that any combination of anyone of them makes life just a bit more intolorable... Even cavemen understood this aspect of rocket science.
So the victim is not a victim BY CHOICE but rather is cought (trapped) in the web spun by the very people they entrusted with enabeling them to obtain their most basic necessity... that being shelter... and the people who gave them their most basic necessity did so with the idea they can make alot of money off this most basic of human instints (other than sex) if they build that shelter on a sliding scale and moved it around in any way they want.
Pull the lever and out pours the cash.. Push the lever and there inst a whole lot. Hummm.. Pulling is WAY WAY better. If I pull this this much... I can buy that mansion.. Yeah, just pull it a little more and I can buy that 300million dollar yatch... Ohhhh heheheh... a touch more and I can take a month off to glob trot... YES!!! Money money money!!! mine mine mine!!! WOOHOO!!!! Living large.. Thanks pions! So sorry you lost out.. YES!! WOOHOO!!!!
Bill, there was no frikken trap. These people aren't victims. They're idiots. Stop grabbing onto a fairy tale concept that has no merit. These people had EVERYTHING layed out in front of them. A bank doesn't want a house. A bank makes more money to have the loan go full term. No trap! Just stupidity!
So then if they are idiots, those that bought into the ARMs.
Then so are those people in California who bought all those homes on the side of a hill. Only to have them slide down the hill when it rained.
They should have known that the house was going to slide down the hill in a few years.
So lets stop insuring those homes, or maybe we should sell insurance to people when buying a home with an ARM. That will pay the increase in the mortgage.
Ya that’s the ticket.
Saying these people who just wanted to get out of the rental hell that they were in are idiots because they bought an ARM. Is the same thing.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
WHAT A CONCEPT! That's already there, Steve. It's called Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI). It's mandatory for all that take out a loan and don't have 20% down when they buy a loan.
Get out of the pool before you drown, Ste........................F@ck it. Stay there and drown.
Steve, maybe you should stick to your posts with useless trivia about how things are in Maine. It's about all you really can contribute to threads.
[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 10-07-2007).]
So then if they are idiots, those that bought into the ARMs.
Then so are those people in California who bought all those homes on the side of a hill. Only to have them slide down the hill when it rained.
They should have known that the house was going to slide down the hill in a few years.
So lets stop insuring those homes, or maybe we should sell insurance to people when buying a home with an ARM. That will pay the increase in the mortgage.
Ya that’s the ticket.
Saying these people who just wanted to get out of the rental hell that they were in are idiots because they bought an ARM. Is the same thing.
Steve, I know you're being sarcastic.. but this is exactly what some people are proposing. We already do with Flood relief.. (build on a flood plain, don't buy insurance and the gov't is supposed to bail them out?) There as been talk recently of the federal gov't stepping in and propping up these people who are in foreclosure.. http://www.npr.org/template...php?storyId=12555904
