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Blooze Own: An F355 Six Speed N* Build Thread by Bloozberry
Started on: 04-24-2010 08:32 PM
Replies: 1251 (208051 views)
Last post by: La fiera on 12-23-2017 07:43 PM
Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-04-2014 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm not sure what they're called specifically, but instead of the normal spring loaded center pin, these ones are more cumbersome because you need to screw and unscrew a nut which draws the pin in and out, but they have a much deeper grip (about 1.5") for thicker parts than standard Clecos. which have maybe 1/4" to 3/8".

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Report this Post10-05-2014 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SageClick Here to Email SageSend a Private Message to SageEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


What kind of clecos are those?


HEXHEAD CLECO FASTNERS

Bumper looks great!

HAGO!

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Report this Post10-06-2014 09:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks!

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-08-2014 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

With the bumper bar welded up and installed, the next step was to install the stock honeycomb bumper material:



If you recall, I needed not only to recess the bumper bar, but also to trim back the honeycomb to fit under the F355 rear fascia. From drawings posted earlier in my thread, I created a template for the amount needed to be trimmed from the stock material:



At first I was sure the easiest way to carve the honeycomb was going to be by using a carbide bit in my die grinder like so:



It was easy, and fun to do because I'm used to trying to carve aluminum with that bit, which is much harder! I found that I couldn't get a nice finish on the cut edge though so I looked around for a better method. That's when I spotted the band saw.



It was so much faster and cleaner, that I did all of the remaining cuts with it. Here's a close up of the center honeycomb blocks after they've been cut with the band saw:



And here are the six finished blocks reinstalled on the bumper bar. I got rid of the webbing between the blocks since it doesn't contribute anything to the crashworthiness, and it got in the way. I believe the webbing is there only as a convenient way to hold all the pieces together on the assembly line.



How much the honeycomb contributes to safety on my car is certainly debatable but again, I decided to install it to look good for my provincial inspection.

So what's next on the agenda? Mounting the radiators!

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-11-2014 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So then, onto the radiators... or so I thought. As I've found, anytime I want to start something new, there are always a few nit-picky things that need to be done before I can move on. To start designing the radiator installation, I needed a level car, and to do that, I needed to reinstall the suspension, stick the wheels back on, and level the car to ride height again. Why couldn't I just lower the chassis onto blocks without the wheels? Well, that's because I needed the wheels to gauge exactly how much clearance I'd have for the rear-mounted radiators. Sounds easy enough except that the next dilemma was to get the chassis at the correct ride height without the weight of the engine and transmission to compress the springs. So out came the welder, some big washers, a couple spare rod ends, and some threaded rod cut to measure 14.5" eye to eye.



I only had two spare spherical joints so I welded the big washers to one end of each threaded rod, and screwed rod ends to the other. The benefit of having these installed is that the suspension is locked at ride height, and my nice polished aluminum shocks can be stored away from the sparks and grinding dust of the remaining work that needs to be done in the engine bay.



Then I realized I needed to move the rear wheels out to where they're supposed to be if I wanted to take advantage of every cubic inch of room for the radiators. That meant ordering up some 1" wheel spacers as I had discussed earlier on. I bought them from adapititusa.com for a very reasonable price. They're made of 6061-T6 aluminum (the same alloy most wheels are made of) and for a modest $20 per adapter more, they machined them with a 57.1 mm centering bore on the inside to mate with the Fiero hub, and machined an integral centering ring on the outboard side to mate with my 72.6mm Motegi wheel bores. I'm very happy with the quality of adaptitusa products... I've had a set of four adapters on my Stinger 308 kit for many years and they work just fine.



With those things out of the way I was finally ready to start figuring out how I would install the radiators. I knew from the get-go that I wanted them ahead of the rear wheels like the real F355. Having door scoops as big as the F355's and not having them actually do something is kind of a waste in my opinion. The concept is pretty simple as long as there is enough room for everything needed. Cold air enters the door scoops, flows through the radiator, and hot air gets exhausted into the wheel well through louvered wheel well liners. The louvers open downward so debris flying off the rotating tires doesn't get thrown into the radiator.

I plan to change the flow a little on my car. First, I plan to duct the airflow from the rocker panel scoops so that it merges with the door scoop airflow and helps cool the radiators. Next, because of the intrusion of the Fiero's B pillar well down into the area where the radiators belong, there isn't enough room for the fans to sit behind the radiators (like the F355) and still have enough space in front of them for the necessary plumbing. So to solve that problem I plan to install blower-style fans upstream of the radiators rather than suction-style fans behind them. Lastly, because I worry about being able to exhaust enough airflow into the wheel wells, I want to route some of the hot air up and over the wheel well liner and exit through the "Challenge"-style grill between the tail lights. Since pictures are worth a thousand words, I'll let this drawing do the talking:



To get everything to fit in this space, I researched many different radiator sizes and found two that would work but decided (as many before me) to opt for ones for the 1992 Honda Civic:



These are all aluminum and have a "cooling capacity rated at 200 HP each". I had to chuckle at the rating units although in all my research I couldn't find a single website that described how to calculate a suitable radiator size for a desired cooling rate. But I suppose even that wouldn't have given me much since I would have also needed information about the rate at which the Northstar produces heat, and the flow rate of the pump too. Then I would've had to pretend that I knew what I was doing. I guess one way to judge whether I've got ample radiator capacity is to compare the combined surface areas of mine to the area of one from a Seville. Or not. For now I'm relying on "200 HP each".



I also had a couple high tech isolators kicking around that I plan to use as the mounts. They're multidirectional isolators capable of damping a large range of vibrations for items between 5 to 12 kg each. I figure the weight of the radiators with fluid in them, combined with the weight of the fans, will be in that range.



I haven't decided on any particular fan yet, though I've narrowed down my search for ones that are 12" dia, are about 2" thick, and are either reversible or are blowers. The company SPAL makes one that fits the bill perfectly but I'm not done looking yet.

Anyways, here are a couple photos showing the car back on it's wheels with one of the rockers mocked up to show the width of the car, and a radiator in the planned location.



From these views you can see how there'll be lots of space up and over the rear wheel to vent some of the hot air out the back fascia:




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Yarmouth Fiero
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Report this Post10-12-2014 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Yarmouth FieroClick Here to Email Yarmouth FieroSend a Private Message to Yarmouth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is going to look very cool Blooz. Its a shame you have to cover this all up with body work. I wish my added chassis reinforcement don't prevent me from doing this as well. Do those radiators have a prefered air flow direction ( ie: an in and an out).

Two other items.

1. No more jokes about colored drawings
2. I have to ask..... do you get disorientated like me when crouched in the engine bay?

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Report this Post10-12-2014 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero:

This is going to look very cool Blooz. Its a shame you have to cover this all up with body work. I wish my added chassis reinforcement don't prevent me from doing this as well. Do those radiators have a prefered air flow direction ( ie: an in and an out).

Two other items.

1. No more jokes about colored drawings
2. I have to ask..... do you get disorientated like me when crouched in the engine bay?



hahahahahaha if you look closely you will see you are the one that is disoriented

------------------

My Build Thread
Tylers Toy

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-12-2014 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

LOL! I tried to think of a witty reply but couldn't. Those marks are from when I was welding up the cradle so as not to mix up the right and left cradle rails. I should have wiped the marks off with some lacquer thinner before priming but didn't, and within an hour of priming, the words bled up through the primer. I hope they don't bleed up through the paint.

Edit to add: I looked closely at the radiators and the fins are symmetrical so I don't believe they will flow any better in one direction than the other.

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 10-12-2014).]

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Report this Post10-12-2014 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

LOL! I tried to think of a witty reply but couldn't. Those marks are from when I was welding up the cradle so as not to mix up the right and left cradle rails. I should have wiped the marks off with some lacquer thinner before priming but didn't, and within an hour of priming, the words bled up through the primer. I hope they don't bleed up through the paint.

Edit to add: I looked closely at the radiators and the fins are symmetrical so I don't believe they will flow any better in one direction than the other.




you'll want to take the primer off, chances are that it will bleed through, happened to me before.

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Report this Post10-13-2014 07:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the advice!

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Report this Post10-13-2014 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 355FieroSend a Private Message to 355FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Blooz.

I like the rad placements. A question for you though. When the wheel well covers are in place, will there be enough room behind the reads to direct the air out? Looks pretty tight on the back side of the rads for air to get out. Would angling the rads so that the inner edge is further forward help with room at the back end? the real 355 rads are also angled if I remember correctly.

Looking good
Cheers
Don

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Report this Post10-13-2014 03:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't know how much you plan to drive this when it's done, but are you worried about pebbles getting thrown into the radiators at all?

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Report this Post10-13-2014 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 355Fiero:
When the wheel well covers are in place, will there be enough room behind the reads to direct the air out? Looks pretty tight on the back side of the rads for air to get out. Would angling the rads so that the inner edge is further forward help with room at the back end?


The real F355 has very little room between the backside of the fans and the wheel well liner too. Here's what a real F355 looks like once the wheel well liners are removed:



On mine, the big difference between what I intend to do and the real F355 is that I'll be placing my fans upstream rather than downstream of the rads, and rather than just relying on the louvers to exhaust hot air, some of it will be redirected over the wheel too. Here's what a real F355 wheel well liner looks like:



When installed, there isn't much room between the tire and the louvers and yet it still seems to work for the Ferrari:



Hopefully the additional pathway I'm going to try to free up over the top of the wheel will improve the potential for more airflow than just the louvers.

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
are you worried about pebbles getting thrown into the radiators at all?


I am, somewhat, although from the above photos of the wheel liners you'll note that the openings are all angled downward. The only way a pebble could hit the radiator is if it first flew off the front of the tire, bounced off the ground and back up into the slots. I guess the real Ferrari's rad is protected by the fan cage in the event that that happened. I could put a mesh behind the radiator though I'd be worried about too much back pressure. I may have to go through some real life testing to see if it's a real concern.

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Yarmouth Fiero
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Report this Post10-13-2014 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Yarmouth FieroClick Here to Email Yarmouth FieroSend a Private Message to Yarmouth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I knew that was a real Ferrari 355 hidden behind your shop Blooz... I just knew it.....

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-18-2014 10:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

LOL... there are more than a few interesting cars stored here. (Actually those photos are from eBay listings).

Back in the shop, I've been slaving at designing the necessary ductwork to allow some of the radiator exhaust to flow over the rear wheels. I have to say it's been more time consuming than I had originally thought. The first step was to see if there was any way to keep some of the OEM sheet metal that shrouds the engine bay. The part I'm talking about is the metal that connects the upper and lower frame rails ahead of the rear wheels. I knew I'd have to chop out most of it on the passenger side since that's where the OEM battery location is and the sheet metal simply protrudes way too far out into area I want to install the radiator. On the driver's side, I thought I'd be able to keep most of it but in the end I decided it had way too large of a cut-out for the stock gas filler pipe and cold air intake plumbing. So I cut it out entirely to start fresh:



Here's what it looked like from the side view after the shroud was removed. It's really starting to look like Swiss cheese!



I wasted a lot of time trying to puzzle out mentally how the wheel well liner, radiator ducting, and backsplash could be integrated with the goal being to have the least number of parts, but it proved to be just too mind boggling. So I started with what I knew I needed: a backsplash for the wheel. It had to serve two purposes: close off the engine bay from road debris (as much as possible); and provide a mounting surface for the arched portion of the wheel well liner. I played around with several sheets of bristle board (accidentally trimming too much here, and leaving too much there, re-taping more cardboard everywhere) until I finally came up with a prototype template:



Being a flimsy flat sheet of paper, taping it in place left a lot to be desired in terms of holding it in position while I tried to design the other mating sheets around it. To complicate matters, the template meets up at right angles to the sheet metal it needs to be attached to on the chassis. Ever tried to hang a piece of paper vertically from the ceiling so it stays up tight against it? That's when I decided to make the template out of some thin steel sheeting I had lying around instead. This sheeting is something like 30 gauge so it's only marginally better than the bristle board, but at least it keeps its shape after being bent and formed:



So here's the metal template starting to take shape. I've purposely left extra material so it can be trimmed to accommodate the rest of the layout as it becomes clearer in mind.



The nice thing about using metal is that I can form arched right angled strips very easily on a tool called a metal shrinker and expander. Here you can see how I've made a few prototype arches which help me visualize how the wheel well liners should be shaped and how to attach them to the backsplash. They also stiffen up the backsplash considerably to boot!:



Fine tuning is the word for the week so I'll be back soon with more progress.

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-23-2014 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Oooops! Looks like things are going to slow down for a couple weeks:



Dave: 0
Engine Crane: 1

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ericjon262
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Report this Post10-23-2014 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

index finger? looks like ouch. get well soon.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 10-24-2014).]

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Yarmouth Fiero
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Report this Post10-23-2014 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Yarmouth FieroClick Here to Email Yarmouth FieroSend a Private Message to Yarmouth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ouch indeed Blooz. Glad it missed your engineers ring though. Those things are hard to come by.

Please please please don't post a picture of your Northstar laying on its side.

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Report this Post10-24-2014 06:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ouch!

Hope you have a speedy recovery!

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Report this Post10-24-2014 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cptsnoopyClick Here to Email cptsnoopySend a Private Message to cptsnoopyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Dang Dave!

I hope it heals quick

Charlie

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post10-24-2014 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the well-wishes guys! I was taking apart my engine hoist when the hydraulic cylinder accidentally swung down like a guillotine and crushed my index finger against the upright of the hoist. It's a through and through break with the part closest to my hand having also splintered. At least it didn't take out a knuckle... that would've been way worse. I look at the bright side... at least now I'll be able to get out of stacking 6 cords of wood!

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Report this Post10-24-2014 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SageClick Here to Email SageSend a Private Message to SageEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Damn man, that sucks!

Hope you're a fast healer.

Let it mend, don't overdo. Gives you a good chance to finalize plans, catch up on your reading, and other somewhat "sedentary" activities....(yea, like I believe you're going to "rest"! )

If I thought it would make you feel any better, I'd tell you about some of my broken bones!

Short version....get well soon!


HAGO!

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Report this Post10-25-2014 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JefrysukoSend a Private Message to JefrysukoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Sage:

Gives you a good chance to finalize plans...


Or redesign the entire thing

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Report this Post10-26-2014 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LunaticClick Here to Email LunaticSend a Private Message to LunaticEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



Great minds think alike! Well almost, mine is aluminum. Great work as always Dave.


PS-Sorry to see your index finger in that shape!

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 10-26-2014).]

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Report this Post10-26-2014 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Thanks for the well-wishes guys! I was taking apart my engine hoist when the hydraulic cylinder accidentally swung down like a guillotine and crushed my index finger against the upright of the hoist. It's a through and through break with the part closest to my hand having also splintered. At least it didn't take out a knuckle... that would've been way worse. I look at the bright side... at least now I'll be able to get out of stacking 6 cords of wood!


Ouch! I've had a few near misses with my engine hoist...but never thought it could end like that! I'll be taking better care myself now. Don't worry...I'm sure the wood will be there waiting for you when you are all healed

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Report this Post11-15-2014 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well, if healing time depended on all the good vibes being sent my way, I would be back in the saddle by now Too bad it doesn't work that way. Ten days ago the orthopaedic surgeon decided it needed to be re-broken and pinned... oh-yay. That restarts the healing-clock all over again... 3.5 weeks down, 5 more to go. They've immobilized my entire hand in a cast which I'm told will need an additional month of physio to get back to normal.



 
quote
Originally posted by Sage:
Gives you a good chance to finalize plans...


...on how to avoid dying of boredom.

 
quote
Originally posted by Jefrysuko:
Or redesign the entire thing


You're mistaking me for Car-lo.

 
quote
Originally posted by Neils88:
I'm sure the wood will be there waiting for you when you are all healed


Ha! A gang of neighbours felt sorry for my wife stacking all the wood so they came over and had it done in one morning! Gotta love country folk.

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Report this Post11-16-2014 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SageClick Here to Email SageSend a Private Message to SageEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well that just "sucks canal water"....as we used to say waaaay back in the 60's!

Little to no choice but to go with it and let the doc's work their "magic". Don't have to tell you this, but a positive attitude is one of the main ingredients for fast, proper healing. I'm sure yours is fine, just try not to let yourself get frustrated. Time really does "heal all wounds", problem is as humans, sooner or later, we run out of time. Don't think you're anywhere near that point yet!

As hard as it is to believe, and next to impossible to accept, there does seem to be some reason for most of what we are subjected to throughout our lives, though it escapes me most of the time, and seems to make absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

If you get REAL bored and run completely out of things to do, you can draw up the plans for my "proposed" roof, where the B pillars are angled to match the fcar quarter windows, and incorporate a frame to hold them to replace the section cut out of the original Fiero pillar; the rear window frame will accommodate the MR2 glass, and is integrated into the new quarter glass frames; the gas fill neck is moved to the fcar location, AND the Ttops will still fit! Oh yea, and research what door glass and wing window can be used to replicate the fcar arrangement. I'll get measurements if you need them!LOL

I guess if you're still bored after that, you can design a vehicle to replace the space shuttles.......

On a serious note; HEAL!!


HAGO!

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Report this Post12-04-2014 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Sage:
If you get REAL bored and run completely out of things to do...


Thanks Sage for making me a chuckle! I'm on the final leg of mending: I had the steel pins pulled out of my finger a couple days ago. The Occupational Therapist says it will take 2 months before the swelling is completely gone and until I gain full flexibility and range of motion of my finger, but at least now I can get back on the project.

During my down-time I did a bit of research on electric radiator fans. Most sites give flow rates, sizes, current draw, availability, and cost of their products and there's quite a wide range of performance for low profile fans. I looked at 14" diameter fans and found some with as little as 950 cfm and others with as much as 1850 cfm. Some drew 6 amps and others as much as 22 amps. The range of prices were anywhere from $65 to $175 per fan! The strange thing is that the ones with the higher electrical requirements and/or highest cost, weren't necessarily the ones with the highest flow rates... they're all over the map. Generally speaking though, the deeper the fan, the better the performance.

My original cooling system plan was dependent upon being able to find a suitable 2" thick pusher fan, but I was disappointed with the low flow rates of the ones I found. To get into the highest flow rates, I needed to go to a deeper fan, which also limited my choices to a puller. That led to having to redesign my layout since the fan needed to be swapped to the opposite side of the radiator, like on the actual F355. Good thing I hadn't gone into too much detail on my drawings!

In the end, I chose a relatively inexpensive fan from Perma Cool (Summit part number PRM-18124) which on some websites sold for as much as $160 but at Summit they were on sale for $61 each. They have ten "S"-shaped blades, flow 1850 cfm, draw a miserly 8.5 amps, and are 2.75" thick. I'll post pics of them once I receive them. In the meantime, here's a schematic of the new layout:



To make room for the thicker fan, I tilted the radiators backward at the top, which made better use of the available space and as an added bonus angled the radiator exhaust to better suit the angle of the louvers in the wheel well liners. I mocked up the driver's side radiator close to the angle it'll be installed, then played around with some cardboard and some Coroplast to get an idea how I'll close up the engine bay and wheel well to force the air where I want it to go:



It's by no means finished, but it's a starting point for further development. I still need to design the duct work from the door scoops to the radiator, and plan for in-service accessibility. For starters though you can imagine how the incoming airflow from the main door scoop will benefit from re-profiling the cross section of the large door post pillars. I'll probably taper the aft of the posts to form a smooth ramp leading to the inboard side of the radiators. I'll also need to do something about clearing the upper water inlet.



I've given some thought about how I'll remove and install the rads to service them too. Currently there's no floor under the radiators but that area will get closed off with a removable fiberglass panel. Removing the panel will allow the radiators to be pulled out from the bottom of the car. I'll also have to make a service panel on the inside of the engine bay to access the upper hose and fill cap.



From this last view it's easy to see just how much width there is up and over the wheel for the any airflow that can't be handled by the louvers in the liners.



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cptsnoopy
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Report this Post12-04-2014 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cptsnoopyClick Here to Email cptsnoopySend a Private Message to cptsnoopyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Glad to see your back at it Dave! Looking forward to some winter updates.

Since things have cooled off nicely around here, I've slowed down considerably on rewiring the Fiero and have been playing outdoors.

Charlie

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Will
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Report this Post12-05-2014 10:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

The strange thing is that the ones with the higher electrical requirements and/or highest cost, weren't necessarily the ones with the highest flow rates... they're all over the map. Generally speaking though, the deeper the fan, the better the performance.


The takeaway from this is that a high flow rating with a low electrical consumption is a LIE. A few companies rate their fans honestly... most do not.
It takes horsepower to move air... a motor can't move much air if it's not pulling much current.

A fan blade can only get so efficient, so a better indicator of fan performance is diameter and current draw (really motor power) rather than claimed CFM.

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
In the end, I chose a relatively inexpensive fan from Perma Cool (Summit part number PRM-18124) which on some websites sold for as much as $160 but at Summit they were on sale for $61 each. They have ten "S"-shaped blades, flow 1850 cfm, draw a miserly 8.5 amps, and are 2.75" thick.


I predict you'll be disappointed in the performance of these units. The only way 1850 CFM could pass through the frame with the motor pulling 8.5 amps is if they were mounted in the path of a tornado.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-05-2014).]

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Report this Post12-05-2014 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I predict you'll be disappointed in the performance of these units. The only way 1850 CFM could pass through the frame with the motor pulling 8.5 amps is if they were mounted in the path of a tornado.


I know you're probably right, but it's an inexpensive experiment even if it fails to deliver. Luckily where I live (no traffic and cooler temps) I almost never see the rad fan coming on in any of my cars. Hopefully the Northstar will be similar.

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Report this Post12-06-2014 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SageClick Here to Email SageSend a Private Message to SageEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


Thanks Sage for making me a chuckle!


You're welcome.....I'll be here all week .

Looks like the new "slant" on the rad's is going to work out great.

Looking forward to seeing your solution to altering the trailing edge of the bottom of the large door post pillars, and the duct work from the door scoops.

Any tentative plans for the B pillars between the top of the rear fenders and the underside of the roof yet?

Glad you are in the final stages of the mend of your hand.

Ever read Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein? "waiting is."...but it doesn't have to be "idle" waiting, which you have proved by doing what you could when you could.
Stick with the therapy/exercises, even after it starts to feel healed.

Thanks for posting your progress/plans, it really does serve to help those of us that sometimes feel as though we are stumbling around in the dark. At least when it comes to territory "new" to us.

HAGO!

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85-308
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Report this Post12-09-2014 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I've just recently become aware of this thread - my loss - and am working thru it carefully. WOW. A detailed examination of every element you touch. I couldn't be more impressed with your thoroughness! I'm currently on pg 13 where you post dwgs of the 88 rear cradle and that is a godsend for me; I can build what I need from that. If you can, when you have a moment could you send any other cradle dwgs to me? I'll PM my email. Thank you in advance!

I'm working on a 308 that I want to widen - to provide more room for the suspension - and I already have a complete 88 front end sitting just outside; so a rear cradle and aftermarket wider suspension pieces are too easy to add on! So thanks again for taking the time to do that. It is so refreshing and inspiring to see work like this: patient, detailed and correct. There have been few who have the capability to do this; it is an elite group. Kudos to you and I look forward to reading the rest of the thread and catching up.

I'm currently reading suspension design books and by pg 13 I can see that you are really doing your homework! I have yet to layout my design but again it is so great to see this carefully thought out and not just 'made to fit' as (unfortunately) too many are. I'll be reading with great interest to see what you ended up with in your design.

Thanks so much for the time it takes to document and share information. It's a technical course in itself.

GP

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Report this Post12-10-2014 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks again for your encouraging words Sage... it really is a morale booster knowing someone is reading this stuff. As for your question here:

 
quote
Originally posted by Sage:
Any tentative plans for the B pillars between the top of the rear fenders and the underside of the roof yet?


I haven't done any design work to speak of, though I do have the MR2 rear glass and one F355 quarter window (if anyone knows where there's a LH quarter glass for under $350, let me know). I've mocked them up a couple times to get the 'ol brainstorming engine fired up, and have gotten the best ideas from studying real F355's. I look under Google Images for rebuilds, or parting outs, or schematics and usually come up with some good photos showing how the underlying metalwork is formed on the Ferrari.

 
quote
Originally posted by 85-308:
...when you have a moment could you send any other cradle dwgs to me?


First of all, thanks GP for all your kind words. Tomorrow afternoon I'll send you the higher resolution stock cradle drawings via the email you provided. Your biggest hurdle may be finding '88 rear knuckles if you don't have them already.

 
quote
Originally posted by 85-308:
...I'll be reading with great interest to see what you ended up with in your design.


It was a marathon of sorts to reach my final design, with more than one curveball thrown in for good measure, but I'm happy I saw it through. You certainly can take an easier path than I did since there are lots of happy people with lowered and widened suspensions that simply cut springs and use adapters. I was motivated to take a more sophisticated route because of impending changes to my province's legislation regarding altering a vehicle's suspension height.

Since I'm on here, I may as well provide a little update on my progress. The UPS guy showed up this morning with an early Xmas present... my two radiator fans:



They coincidentally have the same number of curved blades as the real F355, in case anyone cares. They came with a "mounting" package, although I'm not a big fan (pun intended) of mounting the fan to the radiator using zip-ties through the fins. Here's a shot of the two fans side by each:



The fans fit the Honda Civic radiators perfectly although they weren't specifically intended for them. I also connected both fans up to a 12V battery to make sure they worked and to see what sort of flow they generated through the radiators. It wasn't a very scientific test, although I did a back-to-back comparison and the Fiero fan was noticeably stronger. Hopefully the mere fact that there are two of the new fans will compensate somewhat for their lesser performance.



I've also been playing around adjusting the templates to close off the wheel well on the driver's side. That's sucked up way more time than I care to admit trying to get everything aligned and to fit just right, while keeping the clearances to things like the tires, the inboard shocks, and the trailing links (all things that move) in check. I finally have my wheel tub and inner engine bay templates mostly sorted out. The outer edge of the wheel tub was left wide to be certain I'll have enough material to reach the inside of the fiberglass fender lip when I reinstall the rear quarters. They'll be trimmed back at that time. Those two templates had to be sorted out, and I had to receive the fans before I could start finalizing the radiator and fan location.



There seems to be a comfortable amount of room to design a mounting system and forward ductwork. I like it when a plan comes together!

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Report this Post12-10-2014 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just to lean a little bit on what I do for a living.... you'll be shrouding the rads; ie sealing the perimeters really well; and ensuring there is no easy airflow 'bypass' around them of course. I am sure you will, just putting it in print. The rad caps can be almost inaccessible later I guess as long as you have another that is more accessible somewhere... which I'm sure you have thought of as well (keeping your background in mind). Makes the fans most effective that way!

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Report this Post12-10-2014 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 85-308:
.... you'll be shrouding the rads; ie sealing the perimeters really well; and ensuring there is no easy airflow 'bypass' around them of course.


Definitely! I'm planning a sealed box that combines the inlet air from the door and rocker scoops and leads it to a sealed surface at the front side of each radiator.

 
quote
Originally posted by 85-308:
The rad caps can be almost inaccessible later I guess as long as you have another that is more accessible somewhere...


True, but I'll make an access door in my prototype panel that currently seals off the engine bay (the white cardboard panel).

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Report this Post12-10-2014 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You could make these two rad caps 20 or 22 psi then run your 'system' pressure cap (and bleed tube) off the 'engine' side rad cap - wherever you put it; at 15 psi or whatever you select. That 'might' (?) help reduce the need to get at these; or to suspect failure - at least before the lower pressure one....
Just a hare-brained thought.

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Report this Post12-11-2014 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I didn't see what you were planning on using for the wheel well louvre; if doing that at all? I have found a couple of items if you still plan on it; LMK; I can post or PM.
You weren't going to use Ferrari louvres.... were you? There goes the budget!

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Report this Post12-11-2014 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 85-308:
You could make these two rad caps 20 or 22 psi then run your 'system' pressure cap (and bleed tube) off the 'engine' side rad cap at 15 psi... Just a hare-brained thought.


That's what I plan to do, so it's not a hair (hare?) brained idea to me. I'll still need an access panel to disconnect the upper hose and the upper rad mounts in case I have to replace a radiator at some point in the future.

 
quote
Originally posted by 85-308:
I didn't see what you were planning on using for the wheel well louvre; I have found a couple of items if you still plan on it.


At the moment I plan to make the wheel well liners either out of sheet aluminum or steel, and stamp the louvers into the sheet metal with a die and press. I have seen other car makes with similar vents in plastic liners (Mercedes SL55 comes to mind, but there are other, more affordable cars too). The trouble with ABS plastic is that it's molded to fit a specific model and likely won't work well with my car. I suppose I could always chop out the louvered portion and graft it into my sheet metal, but that might not be the best solution aesthetically. I'd like to know what you've found... you can post your ideas here if you'd like... it gets the brain thinking outside the box.

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Report this Post12-11-2014 10:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85-308Send a Private Message to 85-308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Vented wheel well liners: A quick search gave me this; it is plastic of some sort as an intercooler outlet into the wheel well for a Jetta or similar:
http://www.ecstuning.com/ES251342/
Price looks like about $35 to $40;

also wondering how big you intend to make it; the stock rear deck vents from a fiero GT are lightweight and directionally louvred... might save you stamping out the actual vents...
Just notch the edges to follow the curve you want? But they might be too wide.


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