"High tech 5lb mallet"....."shade-tree mechanics way"....."tweaked it a bit until it fit tightly"..... now you're talking MY language LOL! Good to know we share some of the same techniques, even without CAD and advanced mathmatics!
Seriously though, looking great, and coming right along. Glad to know somebody is still making headway on their project, even if some of us are just biding time. It's just somewhat gratifying even to WATCH somebody doing what needs done.
"When you can't work yourself, go down to where they are working and pay alms to those who are." Not sure who said it, when they said it or why they said it, but I do understand the sentiment. That's what seeing your progress does for me, supports the knowledge that it can get done.
Thanks for taking the time to make it possible for the rest of us to watch.
I'm always talking your language there Sage... it's all car-speak. I appreciate the support kwagner and fieroaddicted... funny how you live in same small town fieroaddicted, and we still haven't met! I'm beginning to think you just made that part up and really live in Los Angeles or something.
This weekend I finally "finished" the rear suspension fabrication work. (In the words of Foghorn Leghorn: Let the bells ring and the children sing! Yay! I started the final leg by planning the two supports for the firewall cross member. A few drawings back, I had initially thought to make them canted over from the lower frame rail up to the upper frame rail, like Yarmouth Fiero's design. After discussing with him his rationale for not having made them vertical (they would have gotten in the way of his rollover hoops), I decided mine would be straight up and down. They'd be easier to fabricate and they'd also provide a straighter load path for the spring forces. I made a couple of cardboard templates and quickly figured out that I'd need to remove part of the weld flange on the lower frame rail to get them in place (hashed area):
It was dirt simple to cut the 1" x 3" x 1/8" tubing for the supports since the simple 18 degree angle was the same at both ends. I decided to leave an extra flange at the bottom of both supports to increase the welded area to the lower frame rails (this is the driver's side):
From the rear view you can see that the support is offset a bit by the flange, but it also gives greater access to weld the outside wall of the support to the rail. I'll also cut a little trap door in the firewall from inside the cabin to be able to weld the front edge of the support to the rail.
The final step was to make the stationary shock absorber mounts on the chassis. I figured out what height the eyes of the mounts had to be, to keep the shock level, then where along the length of the new firewall cross member they had to be installed to make sure the shocks would be parallel to the frame, and finally how far back the mounting eyes had to be to get a 14-1/2" long shock absorber with the suspension at ride height. I make it sound more complicated than it really was. Again, I fabbed up some cardboard templates and jigged around with them until I was happy. Then I zipped the mounts out of a piece of 2" x 3" x 3/16" tubing:
I cleaned up the burrs, sandblasted the protective coating off them, and wire-wheeled them to a nice clean finish, ready for welding and priming:
To be certain I was tacking them in the right place, I attached the shocks and double-checked the levelness and squareness and zapped them in place. (The square rod jammed between the mounts was there to make sure they didn't pinch together as the tack welds cooled.) This is the passenger side.
Here's the driver's side tacked in place just waiting for final welding. My little 100A MIG welder isn't hot enough to weld these structural parts so now that I've got all of the suspension pieces tacked in place, it's time to get the pros out to finish it all up. Wednesday is the appointment day so I won't be putting any weight on wheels until after then.
The only thing left to do was install the shocks and cycle the suspension up through it's travel range to make sure everything worked as planned. I'll post a video after the welding is completed. For now, here's a rear view of the driver's side:
And a side view of the passenger side... note the Fiero's in the background:
And last but not least, a rear top view showing how they'll nicely frame the Northstar and F40 transmission.
I can't install the springs yet because trying to cycle the suspension with 350lb/in springs would be futile by hand, and even if I could, they would probably pop off some of my tack welds.
Great job Blooz. It's certainly going to look very cool and functional when it's all done. I like your use of gussets and brackets cut from sections of structural tubing to take advantage of the materials extruded shape and strength. It looks very OEM.
Did you already make plans to move your battery to a new location? I can't remember if it was already done or not on your chassis. I'll be doing that with mine and there seems to be lots of examples of this process on various threads.
funny how you live in same small town fieroaddicted, and we still haven't met! I'm beginning to think you just made that part up and really live in Los Angeles or something.
LOL No, I'm still sticking to my original story of living in Aylesford. I do have to get over sometime soon to see this car. I am certain there is a lot to learn from you for sure. We'll have to set something up for sometime in the next couple weeks. Would have to be a weekend though.
The QA1 website has a list of available mono and twin tube shocks on its Circle Track page. The Proma Star 501S's that I bought aren't identified on either list so I assume they are neither.
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 02-11-2014).]
The QA1 website has a list of available mono and twin tube shocks on its Circle Track page. The Proma Star 501S's that I bought aren't identified on either list so I assume they are neither.
Proma Stars are twin-tube shocks. They are valved for drag racing so they weren't really ideal for your application anyway.
FYI there are no other common types of automotive dampers besides mono and twin-tube. Twin-tube is the most common in mass production.
Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero: Did you already make plans to move your battery to a new location?
The battery will be relocated to the front compartment since there will be lots of room up there, and to help redistribute some weight, but I haven't made any solid plans yet.
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Originally posted by Steven Snyder: Proma Stars are twin-tube shocks. You can't run twin tubes upside down or sideways.
Well thanks for busting my bubble. Where were you before I forked out $400 for these puppies? Hunh? Hunh? It's interesting that none of the literature that came with them even remotely suggests that there's a top or a bottom and that there's a correct orientation for them. I'll have to look more into this but it is starting to make sense why all of the horizontal shock systems I've seen use a remote reservoir. A quick Google scan indicates that that particular style is called a DeCarbon shock and uses a floating piston between the nitrogen and the oil in a reservoir. Why does this suddenly sound really expensive? What is the effect of using a twin tube horizontally?
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Originally posted by Will: Are you planning to triangulate the rocker arm mounts?
I don't think so, though I could possibly incorporate a couple 1" x 1" rectangular braces for additional rigidity if required. Some may find the appearance of the bell crank mounts to be under-designed, but the photos can be deceptive regarding the scale of the pieces involved. The effective moment arm of the bell crank on the lower mount is only about 6.5". I believe it's stout enough having a full 2" x 3" x 1/8" cross section with the 3" dimension oriented parallel to the expected forces. Likewise, the effective moment arm of the bell crank on the upper mount is only about 3" long and is resisted by a 1.5" x 3" x 1/8" wall tubing with the 3" dimension again oriented the same way. It would take some pretty heavy duty forces to bend either one, or to break them from their bases.
Will, I'm still curious to see your design and how you surmounted many of these challenges. If you're not willing to show them to the general public (as you've stated in the past), then I can PM you an email address.
Proma Stars are twin-tube shocks. They are valved for drag racing so they weren't really ideal for your application anyway.
FYI there are no other common types of automotive dampers besides mono and twin-tube. Twin-tube is the most common in mass production.
According to QA1 the promastar can be mounted in any orientation. A guy in this thread phoned them. QA1 also says "Used in drag racing, street performance, autocross, road race and street rod applications, Proma Star shocks are the best for hard-core performance." They're not just for drag racing. Keep up the great work Blooze, I wish I could stay this motivated with my project.
[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 02-11-2014).]
Originally posted by Zac88GT: According to QA1 the promastar can be mounted in any orientation.
Excellent find there Zac! I was just pricing some DeCarbon style and some emulsion shocks and nearly fell off my seat. The prices average US$1300, which for me would run close to $1800 delivered That`s not counting the new springs I`d surely need to buy as well.
Feeling quite depressed about it all given the likelihood of finding some alternate shocks with the same travel range was small, I headed out to the shop and tested my shocks by hand. I cycled them upside-down, sideways, and right-side-up about 15 times each way and there was no discernible difference. They slid in and out with just as much pressure no matter what the orientation, and there were absolutely no audible bubbles or swishing sounds coming from them either. I know that's not very scientific, but it gave me a better sense that mounting orientation isn't critical with these. Whew!
i have run my proma stars upside down for a year now with no ill effects .everything i read from QA-1 said they can be mounted any direction .i dont think there is a better shock for the money .the adjustability is great and they are a good looking shock to boot .i have read some criticism because they are not gas filled but a little research shows that gas filled shocks are cheaper because it is very time consuming to design a shock that can use oil alone . cant wait to see everything welded up on your chassis .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-11-2014).]
I stand corrected. The Summit Racing catalog lists them as having twintube construction, but apparently they are not! Sorry for the alarm! Apparently Proma Stars are gas charged monotube dampers with a separator piston, so they can be used in any orientation.
Worst case you would have had to fork out ~$300 each for some Bilstein ASN shocks. Good monotubes aren't expensive, so it's no big deal.
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 02-11-2014).]
QA-1 coil overs are not gas charged shocks .I did a lot of research before i bought mine .If you look at all of the info on their website and in the catalogue , there is no mention of gas charging .
QA-1 coil overs are not gas charged shocks .I did a lot of research before i bought mine .If you look at all of the info on their website and in the catalogue , there is no mention of gas charging .
Originally posted by Zac88GT: The promastars are NOT gas charged, I've taken one apart. They have a gas bag to accommodate volume changes.
I think that's considered a low-pressure gas charged shock, as opposed to a high-pressure gas charged shock. Does the bag feel pretty stiff or is it just ambient pressure?
At least they're keeping some gas separate from the oil. It won't be enough to prevent cavitation though.
I guess I was being optimistic grouping them in with performance shocks!
Just a quick update: While the shock absorber debate was playing out, I got around to removing everything in preparation for welding and took the opportunity to strip the paint off the firewall and much of the engine bay. Although not shown in this photo, I welded shut most of the holes in the firewall and ground them smooth.
Knowing that the Proma Star shocks were OK to be laid horizontal, I felt comfortable going ahead with the scheduled final welding of the rear suspension components yesterday. It felt like a marathon with over two hours of near non-stop melting steel bits together. In summary here's what we welded:
-4 shock mounts to the firewall cross member; -the firewall cross member to the upper frame rails; -2 vertical supports to the firewall cross member and to the lower frame rail; -4 halves of the trailing link mounts to the lower frame rail; -2 lower bell crank mounts to the lower frame rail; -2 upper bell crank mounts to the upper frame rail; -4 inboard upper lateral link mounts to the lower frame rail -4 inboard lower lateral link mounts to the cradle; -2 fwd engine mount gussets to the cradle; and -2 bell crank touch ups
Tomorrow I'll get a chance to clean up all the welds and prime everything.
Usually I weld in a T shirt because it gets so hot otherwise, but welding for that long I'm sure you would get a nasty sunburn without all those heavy clothes! But man it must have gotten hot!
How much of the specifics of the build did you plan ahead of time? I know for example the upper supports for the bellcrank you found a good solution when the time came, but was everything else planned ahead? Or are you making it up as you go? Because as this project progresses I cannot believe how many little things there are to take into account for every modification you are making.
As one of the many people who I am sure check on this thread every single day, it will be an exciting day when we get to see a first drive video of this in the future.
Originally posted by Bloozberry: Will, I'm still curious to see your design and how you surmounted many of these challenges. If you're not willing to show them to the general public (as you've stated in the past), then I can PM you an email address.
I think bell cranks are over rated for cars with fenders (IE, cars that aren't open wheel race cars). The idea in my head doesn't use pushrods or cranks, but I need to get serious about drawing it out so that I can verify that it will work in the space available.
I think bell cranks are over rated for cars with fenders (IE, cars that aren't open wheel race cars). The idea in my head doesn't use pushrods or cranks, but I need to get serious about drawing it out so that I can verify that it will work in the space available.
I can see their benefit for a rising rate motion ratio.
Great job Blooz. I am new to this forum and stumbled across this thread while doing research for my project. I also just bought a fiero with a f355 body installed on it. I too picked up an 2001 cady sls for $100 with (you guessed it) an over heating problem. One day those two cars will become one. I will study each page of this build and take tips from a master like yourself. I dont have your patience or your skills or your pocket book, but I do have time so this will be an adventure. Thanks. Steve.
[This message has been edited by skidd1000 (edited 02-15-2014).]
Catching up again Blooz! As always, your work amazes me. This thread always serves as a source of inspiration to me - get's my Fiero addiction back on track. I for one truly appreciate the fact that you take the time and effort to document what you are doing. I can always find an answer to whatever it is that I am struggling with - or at least some ideas that lead me to a solution.
For my roadster project, I have been struggling with how I am going to tie the rear roll bar hoop into the firewall and rear structure. I really don't want to run a diagonal tube from the hoop to the strut towers. After looking at how you rebuilt the cross brace, I believe I can incorporate some of Yarmouth's and your ideas and do something similar which would allow me to tie the hoop, firewall and strut tower together with a diagonal bar that sits below the rear grate? Not sure it will work but I have some ideas.
Hmmm... I see I owe a few acknowledgements and a few replies, so thanks go to Charlie (cptsnoopy). I've been keeping an eye on your thread too and am jealous about how far along you are. Your car is going to be tearing up the streets of Phoenix in no time.
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Originally posted by zkhennings: How much of the specifics of the build did you plan ahead of time? I know for example the upper supports for the bell crank you found a good solution when the time came, but was everything else planned ahead? Or are you making it up as you go?
That's a tricky question because when I started out I certainly didn't think I would redesign the suspension. If I had to put a number on it, I would guess that 80% was planned ahead and the rest made up as I went. For example, I figured out the location for the suspension pivot points ahead of time, since that's the only way to make sure the wheels would work as intended. Then, starting with my stock Fiero drawings I planned how I could fit those pivot points to the chassis in the available space. I had to start from scratch several times when I realized I simply didn't have the room to do what I wanted. Each time I honed in on a better solution. But even so, there were some things that I didn't see at all, or occasions where I counted on a wrong measurement, or simply thought I had enough information to forge ahead when I didn't. I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head that didn't go the way I expected and had to redesign on the fly:
a. drawing the wrong inner diameter of the rear wheels which resulted in designing the knuckle-top brackets such that they interfered with the wheels (on the fly solution: flip the knuckles left to right and change all of my suspension mounting points); b. drawing only the driver side chassis and suspension expecting the right side to be a mirror image. This error caused me to have to have to dump at least one suspension design since there is much more room on the driver's side than the passenger side for the suspension; and c. not having drawn the engine in top view where I would have seen the clearance issues with the passenger lower frame rail before I welded the engine mounts to the cradle. This omission caused me to have to cut off and remake the front and rear cross members of the cradle.
So as you can see, despite all my planning there arose even big problems that had to be solved as I went.
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Originally posted by Will: I think bell cranks are over rated for cars with fenders (IE, cars that aren't open wheel race cars). The idea in my head doesn't use pushrods or cranks, but I need to get serious about drawing it out so that I can verify that it will work in the space available.
I found the pushrod and bell crank were the answer to packaging constraints, especially with the lowered suspension.
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Originally posted by skidd1000: I also just bought a Fiero with a f355 body installed on it. I too picked up an 2001 cady sls for $100 with (you guessed it) an over heating problem. One day those two cars will become one. I don't have your patience or your skills or your pocket book, but I do have time so this will be an adventure.
I'm only a PM away if you need advice or have a question or two. As for money, you'll soon find that this forum is a treasure trove of information on how to get things done inexpensively (lots of DIY stuff). And if you start a build thread, you'll also find your patience and desire for a good quality build will grow when you get rewarding comments from complete strangers such as yourself.
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Originally posted by katatak: Thanks again for sharing your work.
You're one of the good guys Pat. Thanks for your words of encouragement, although the idea for the firewall cross member is totally Yarmouth Fiero's. He's a pretty ingenious guy given all the stuff he's designed for his convertible and this is his frist ever project car. I was checking out your thread yesterday and see it's chugging along at the same pace most of these projects do! Keep it up, it's going to be one-of-a-kind.
As for a bit of progress on the Blooze-mobile, I did some more cleaning up of the firewall and primed the engine bay in prep for reinstalling the cradle. That went without a hitch, though there's definitely more wiggling and jiggling than a stock engined car to get everything lined up as the frame is lowered back over top of the engine. I don't know how those guys with stock wheelbases managed to shoehorn the Northstar into their engine bays... I have three more inches and find it tight!
With the engine back in I could start building up the suspension again to test out the weight on wheels config. I just had to take a photo or two with the springs on the coil overs even though they're not set up with the spring seats at the right spot.
The instructions for the coil overs say that anti-seize compound must be smeared on the shock tube's threads before attempting to adjust them otherwise there's a risk of galling up the threads. That's going to make a mess. I also make a modification to the bell cranks to enable me to spin the shocks around to have the adjuster knob more accessible at the rear. I had to grind down the radius of the end of the bell crank arm to get the larger end of the shock body to clear the bell crank. I like them better this way:
Blooz, that is looking great, I can tell you from experience my N* is "stuffed" in the bay, //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...3/HTML/000024-2.html about a third of the way down the page, you'll see that I had a "little" rework myself. (damn, looks like myfiero.com is down again)
I might have to "borrow" your rear suspension for my 288 widebody.
Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 02-18-2014).]
I found the pushrod and bell crank were the answer to packaging constraints, especially with the lowered suspension.
I don't know how those guys with stock wheelbases managed to shoehorn the Northstar into their engine bays... I have three more inches and find it tight!
Never disparaged the pushrod concept... It works great for you and will look great in the engine bay.
Up an inch, left and inch, up an inch, forward an inch, up an inch, right an inch...
I don't know how those guys with stock wheelbases managed to shoehorn the Northstar into their engine bays... I have three more inches and find it tight!
To mark this thread's approach to 100,000 views, I thought I'd post a short video showing how the rear suspension works it's magic. (The spring is removed from the coil-over to allow me to compress the suspension fully). Enjoy!
Yep, the video really does work better than a technical explanation. If a picture's worth a thousand words, the video is pricelss, as far as demonstrating how it all comes together and works.
I would imagine the addition of the spring would also be interesting to watch in action. In your estimation, will the ride be as stiff, less stiff or about the same as a "normal" coil-over set up?
As always, beautiful work. Thanks again for taking the time to share.
LOL! Good to know we share some of the same techniques, even without CAD and advanced mathmatics!
I'm beginning to think you just made that part up and really live in Los Angeles or something.
I started the final leg by planning the two supports for the firewall cross member. A few drawings back, I had initially thought to make them canted over from the lower frame rail up to the upper frame rail, like Yarmouth Fiero's design. After discussing with him his rationale for not having made them vertical (they would have gotten in the way of his rollover hoops), I decided mine would be straight up and down. They'd be easier to fabricate and they'd also provide a straighter load path for the spring forces. I made a couple of cardboard templates and quickly figured out that I'd need to remove part of the weld flange on the lower frame rail to get them in place (hashed area):
That`s not counting the new springs I`d surely need to buy as well.
